Subwoofer dilemma(SVS, Sunfire, PSW650)

[malikarshad]

I have built my home theater system with the Polk RTi Series. See my speaker configuration below.
Front- Rti 70's
Center - Csi40
Surrond - Rt600i
Surround back - Fxi50
Receiver - Denon Avr-3803
Sub - PSW350 (old) to be upgraded
DVD Player- Panasonic F85s

I have to choose between the following subwoofer
1. Sunfire True Subwoofer Architectural Signature http://www.sunfire.com/arch2.htm
2. SVS (20-39 PC+ or 25-32 PC+)
3. Polk PSW650.

My problem is I cannot audition the SVS and Polk PSW650 as the local stores does not carry these models.
I gotta great deal on Sunfire subs for $600 open box. I looked at the price at sunfire (http://www.sunfire.com/arch2.htm) and they were $1899 retail. They have a very good review (4.74/5) on audioreview.com. http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_120645_2741crx.aspx

I'm a new to the home speakers and that's why I need your helpful opinions.
My dilemma came from reading the forums here b'cos all of them luv SVS subs. But given the price point is the sunfire a good buy?
I've already got the sunfire home and its sound great but should i order the SVS too.
My listening preference is 50% music 50% movies so I need that works for both.
Would really appreciate if you could please help me with your expert advice.
Thanks,
Arshad Malik

[faster100]

all nice subs, i would start with SVS and next in line with the sunfire... last with the polk

[malikarshad]

Thanks for the post. But do you think I should take the trouble of ordering the SVS sub online and then return it if i don't like it.
My main point here is people like SVS b'cos of their performance/price ratio. Now that I have sunfire for $600 due to think I should bother trying SVS.
I mean is the peformance of SVS & sunfire are comparable at the price point of $600 for the subs i'm interested in.
Thanks,
Arshad

Front- Rti 70's
Center - Csi40
Surround - Rt600i
Surround back - Fxi50
Receiver - Denon Avr-3803
Sub - PSW350 (old) to be upgraded

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by malikarshad
Thanks for the post. But do you think I should take the trouble of ordering the SVS sub online and then return it if i don't like it.
My main point here is people like SVS b'cos of their performance/price ratio. Now that I have sunfire for $600 due to think I should bother trying SVS.
I mean is the peformance of SVS & sunfire are comparable at the price point of $600 for the subs i'm interested in.
Thanks,
Arshad

Front- Rti 70's
Center - Csi40
Surround - Rt600i
Surround back - Fxi50
Receiver - Denon Avr-3803
Sub - PSW350 (old) to be upgraded

I bought, I had problems and SVS fixed it right away and they sound GREAT.

GO SVS first.

Evile Twin

[Tour2ma]

Although I too plan to go the SVS route, there are a couple very happy Sunfire owners around here who've yet to chime in.

At $600 the True Sig looks like a very good deal as the couple that have moved on ebay lately have gone for more than that. So if you don't like it, there's always the possibility of selling it for what you paid and trying the SVS.

What size room are you talking about for your HT?

[Frank Z]

Another vote for the Sunfire! I've got a MkII and it is a great "little" sub!

[RuSsMaN]

Just fyi, I'm not sure how Earthquake stands up, beit a decent sub, or sunfire clone (10 inch active, 10 inch pr), but Audioadvisor.com has a demo SuperNova MKIV-10 for $399, free shipping.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/clearance.asp

Cheers,
Rooster

[Dr. Spec]

Sunfire subs, and all their clones, display extremely high THD at low frequencies. Upwards of 40-50% at 20-25 Hz at even moderate SPL.

It's not really the fault of the designer - Carver does the micro-sub as well as anyone out there.

It's basically what happens when you try to violate Hoffman's Iron Law and get big bass out of a tiny enclosure.

The Sunfire uses massive amp power and a very steep and aggressive EQ curve to achieve a flat response to about 25 Hz. This results in huge cone excursion and very high VC temps, both of which contribute to high THD.

The Sunfire claim to fame is big bass from a tiny box. If you absolutely cannot have a highly visible large sub, then by all means go with Sunfire.

If you can live with a large sub (the bigger the better from a physics standpoint), then higher bass quality, lower distortion, deeper extension, and greater SPL capability can be yours.

Doc

[faster100]

I introduce!!!!! doot doot doot SVS :D :D :D :D :D

[Tour2ma]

"doot doot doot"???

[Frank Z]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
"doot doot doot"???

Get out your Lucky Astrology Mood Watch/Decoder ring and you'll de-cypher the secret message!

Doot, Doot, Doot=Waste oil drum converted into a Subwoofer!


:D :D :D

malikarshad,
Enjoy what ever you get, there really is no right or wrong decisions, you'll figure out what YOU like in no time!

[faster100]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
"doot doot doot"???

have you near mortals have no imagination,

Doot Doot Doot, think a horn of some sort, a bugle.. not the snacks.

how do you introduce something, drum roll... please.. oh wait maybe those other subs won't play the drum roll. LOL

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by faster100
... near mortals ...
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....

Frank, Must mean we are doomed to only have near-death experiences...

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by faster100
Doot Doot Doot, think a horn of some sort, a bugle.. not the snacks.

how do you introduce something, drum roll... please..

Oh, you mean

"Dunn nun nun nunt nuh nah"

CHARGE!?

Cheers,
Drunk Russ

[Frank Z]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....

Frank, Must mean we are doomed to only have near-death experiences...

Good thing I only drink NEAR BEER!

[malikarshad]

My living room dimension are 15x15. Its a 7.1 setup & my living room is full of speakers all around since I'm using floorstanding Rt600i as my surrounds.
I tried tuning my sunfire sub and sounds really blends in with my Rti's.
I'm leaning more towards keeping the sunfire sub b'cos to my mind i'm getting a $1900 sub for $600. I cannot be convince myself of buying SVS over sunfire b'cos of the price. There has to be something in the sunfire for it to be retailed at $1900. The SVS 20-39 PC+ is priced $825.
I cannot let it go of my mind that i'm getting a product that retailed for thousands of dollars for few hundred dollars. Moreover if I try SVS 20-39 PC+ i'll have to pay $300 extra. So is it worth paying extra money.
Has somebody done a detail audition of the SVS and Sunfire sub?
Guys please help me.

My Setup
Front- Rti 70's
Center - Csi40
Surround - Rt600i
Surround back - Fxi50
Receiver - Denon Avr-3803
Sub - PSW350 (old) to be upgraded

[faster100]

DR.Spec told ya the deal with the subs, Sunfire is just that sunfire.. thus the price.. albeit they are great subs.. But they pack a large amount of amp watts into a tiny box, Spec told ya what that causes, SVS is over and over proved itself by the countless reviews...... I have never heard either... Far as 1900 list price, they sell on e-bay depending on the model from 550.00 - 1000.00

$1900.00 is like polk wanting 869.00 each for lsi15's when you can buy a pair for 900 -1100 everyday.....

I can only go by reviews as i haven't heard these subs in person

[Tour2ma]

Sorry, just having a bit of fun while you got back to us… ADD is quite common ‘round here…

So you have the Sunfire in the house... well, that's a bit different. If you like it, and apparently you do, then be happy. Your goal was to upgrade your Polk sub, and you’ve done that. If you can't be happy, then you might get the cost of the SVS for your True on ebay.

I’m not aware of anyone having done a detailed comparison of the True and SVS except maybe Doc, and he’s given you the low down on the THD advantage SVS holds.

Assuming standard 8' flat ceiling your room is 1800 cu ft, not too big, not too small. I’m guessing you have at least one opening to an adjacent room that will effectively add to the volume of your immediate listening area. Anyway one good sub, properly placed, should be enough unless you like your movies very loud.

You do have a nice HT rig. A little surprised to see your FXi50’s in the rear and 600’s on the side. I think most here would urge you to try swapping them.

[malikarshad]

Alright guys. I get the point. Size is not a problem for me. So I'm now in for a SVS sub. Would do you all recommend. The best value for money I can get with my 7.1 Rti setup.
I have read other forum answers and people like 20-39 PC but now there are not different model PCi series PC+ and PC. Is there any performance advantage in PC series vs CS series. If not which one suits best for my need.
I'm not to technical so please recommend something that will give me a better performance that the sunfire sub that i have.
Thanks,
arshad
Front- Rti 70's
Center - Csi40
Surround - Rt600i
Surround back - Fxi50
Receiver - Denon Avr-3803
Sub - PSW350 (old) to be upgraded

[brettw22]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
ADD is quite common ‘round here…
See: Sid ;)

[Tour2ma]

WAAAAAAAAAA...

malikarshad,
Trust me, we're not being rough on you here.

For SVS selection advice there's only one you need talk to here... Paging DR. Spec... Paging Dr. Spec...

[malikarshad]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
You do have a nice HT rig. A little surprised to see your FXi50’s in the rear and 600’s on the side. I think most here would urge you to try swapping them. Thanx for the compliment.
Its b'cos there is wall behind my listening position and I don't have any space to put the floorstanding rt600i as surround back.
So the Fxi50 are wall mount at the back and the rt600i are side facing at ear level. Any recommendation appreciated.


So you have the Sunfire in the house... well, that's a bit different. If you like it, and apparently you do, then be happy. Your goal was to upgrade your Polk sub, and you’ve done that. If you can't be happy, then you might get the cost of the SVS for your True on ebay. That's the point. I'm happy with sunfire but i've read numerous posts here in praise of SVS, that gave me second thought about the sunfire. I got the THD part somewhat b'cos I'm a new comer. But if THD issue is not a major showstopper then I don't want to worry about it. I need a very strong and compeling reason to buy a SVS over sunfire for the price i paid.

[brettw22]

Originally posted by malikarshad
I need a very strong and compeling reason to buy a SVS over sunfire for the price i paid.
Money savings is a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily equal the QUALITY you get for that money spent......just my .01 (I'll save more for later)

[VR3]

Originally posted by brettw22
See: Sid ;)

Eff you. Looking for subwoofers on this forum is pretty bias. Theres SVS, then theres everyone else. This is the Polk/SVS/Rotel Forum. So good luck arguing with these ADHD certified lunatics.

[brettw22]

lol......Sid.....you can't really be upset with that one......I think that you've even self proclamed that a few times to us.....was just a joke.......R E L A X......

[VR3]

I am relaxed, i even made my own joke ADHD certified, I was plainly telling him this forum is very biased when it comes to subwoofers. by the way, I am not on medication......lol

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
This is the Polk/SVS/Rotel Forum. Grain of truth there, all are ID'd as great price/ performance mid-fi manufacturers and have a considerable following here. Especially Polk, cause it's kinda the Polk website we're on. ;)

But there are more than a few members that favor other manf's...
Electronics: Denon, Outlaw, Carver, B&K and, yes, your beloved Adcom.
Subs: REL, Velodyne, Hsu, Sunfire and DIY’s

Anyway, back on topic…
malikarshad,
Yup, those pesky walls can be a problem. As for the SVS, if you want to risk the shipping cost and try an SVS in your home, Doc will be happy to guide your selection I’m sure.

You can also try an “Any SVS owners live near (blank)” thread and maybe catch an audition that way.

[Dr. Spec]

Sorry for the delay, I was out for the day.

Sid's comment has some merit; I AM biased to SVS. But with good reason; aside from DIY there is simply no better performance value in subwoofers.

Nevertheless, I have made it a point to sing the praises of other subs when asked for other recommendations, and generally HSU, Velodyne, and Acoustic Visions, and Paradigm (Adire) top my list.

Malikarshad - go to the SVS website and read the Reviews section, and talk a tour of Home Theater Forum Speakers and Subwoofers forum, and decide about SVS for yourself. Don't rely on just me to convince you.

The Sunfire is a remarkable sub for its size. Carver does it better than anyone. But I'll say it again, a larger quality sub will always better a micro-sub in all measureable performance parameters. That in turn will always translate into better sounding bass.

You have a square room, and that will present acoustic challenges for any subwoofer. Experimentation with placement will be important.

Depending on how loud you play your HT, the PCi series or PB1-ISD might be all the output you'll ever need. If you really like to belt out room-shaking volume and run the sub hot for HT, then the PC-Plus line would be a better choice.

Doc

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
... talk a tour ... Man, I've been sendin him to you all day... :D...

[malikarshad]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

You have a square room, and that will present acoustic challenges for any subwoofer. Experimentation with placement will be important.
Depending on how loud you play your HT, the PCi series or PB1-ISD might be all the output you'll ever need. If you really like to belt out room-shaking volume and run the sub hot for HT, then the PC-Plus line would be a better choice.
Doc

Doc you are one of the best on the forum and really appreciate your inputs.
I've finally decided to order 20-39 PCi.
I re-checked my rooms dimensions and they are 15x10. The only place i could put the SVS sub is at the back of my entertainment center.
Now I have one more questions about connecting two subs. Now I have the sunfire & PSW350 in my possession. So if i want to connect two subs which one should i keep so that it works seamlessly with the SVS sub. I want to sell either one of it. Or i'll sell both of it depending upon people's opinion.
I really appreciate all of the opinions.
Arshad Malik
Front- Rti 70's
Center - Csi40
Surround - Rt600i
Surround back - Fxi50
Receiver - Denon Avr-3803
Sub - PSW350 (old) to be upgraded

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by malikarshad
Doc you are one of the best on the forum and really appreciate your inputs. You've got that right...
I've finally decided to order 20-39 PCi. The only place i could put the SVS sub is at the back of my entertainment center. It would concern me to place the sub there. Given your room size, the vibrations you introduce into your equipment may be considerable wherever you place the SVS, but right behind... I don't know...

Now I have one more questions about connecting two subs. Now I have the sunfire & PSW350 in my possession. So if i want to connect two subs which one should i keep so that it works seamlessly with the SVS sub. I want to sell either one of it. Or i'll sell both of it depending upon people's opinion.Two subs are really going to compound your bass management issues. Co-locating them minimizes the issues, but I get the feeling that is not what you are suggesting. And in your 1200 to 1400 cu ft room, the PCi should be plenty.
I'd sell the True, you will likely make money on it, and mothball the Polk for a potential 2-ch application down the road.

[Dr. Spec]

Thanks for the props - we all learn from each other and try to pass the knowledge along - it's the whole point of Club Polk (aside from the huge entertainment value).

Good advice from tour - trust me, you won't need either the 350 or the Sunfire sub in that size room. The 20-39PCi will fill it with deep, powerful, clean bass with no problems.

Corner placement anywhere in the room should be fine with an 80 Hz crossover point, and the sub will be very difficult to localize. Placement near the mains would be optimum, if you can, but not required. The cylinder takes up very little floor space actually, despite its large size.

Please post your impressions when you receive it.

Doc

[malikarshad]

First of all I want to thank you all (especially Doc) for such a great help and support. It was very very helpful to make a decision.
I ordered the 20-39pci sub today and i called the SVS customer service and the Eric the SVS sales guy was really helpful in explaining the differences in PC+ and PCi and he too suggest to buy the pci.
As soon as i get it i'll do my audition and let u know guys about my impressions.
Thank u all,
Arshad Malik

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by malikarshad
First of all I want to thank you all (especially Doc) for such a great help and support. It was very very helpful to make a decision.
I ordered the 20-39pci sub today and i called the SVS customer service and the Eric the SVS sales guy was really helpful in explaining the differences in PC+ and PCi and he too suggest to buy the pci.
As soon as i get it i'll do my audition and let u know guys about my impressions.
Thank u all,
Arshad Malik

Always glad to help. You WILL be impressed with the improvement in bass quality. Looking forward to your impressions.

Great demo DVDs to show off your new SVS:

A. I.: Artificial Intelligence (dts)
Air Force One
Atlantis: The Lost Empire
Band of Brothers
Black Hawk Down
Blade II (dts)
Brotherhood of the Wolf
From Hell (dts)
The Haunting (dts)
Jurassic Park III (dts)
K-19: The Widowmaker
Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring (theatrical version is strongest)
The Matrix
Minority Report (dts)
Monsters, Inc.
Pearl Harbor (dts)
Saving Private Ryan (dts)
Star Wars Episode I: Phantom Menace
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Terminator 2 (dts)
Titan A. E. (dts)
Toy Story 2
U-571 (dts)
We Were Soldiers

[malikarshad]

Got the SVS 20-39 pci few days back. My first reaction after opening the big box was WOW!!! this is huge. I did a quick test and was truly impressed by its performance. Very clean, deep bass compared to the sunfire. Now I understand what THD means. The sunfire was very boomy sometimes but SVS is simply clean and clear.
I still have to calibrate my HT with AVIA and SPL meter. Will post details as soon as I'm done with it.
Hey Doc i cannot help saying that you are really a HT Doc. Had i not listened to you I won't have known what a real good subwoofer is.
Anyway Doc congrats on your new PB2-ISD sub. What are you doing with your 20-39 PC+?
Another question can the SVS PCi series be tuned to lower frequency using the port plug?
These forum really rocks.
Thanx all.
Arshad
Front- Rti 70's
Center - Csi40
Surround - Fxi50
Surround back - Rt600i
Receiver - Denon Avr-3803
Sub - SVS 20-39 PCi

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by malikarshad
Got the SVS 20-39 pci few days back.

I...was truly impressed by its performance. Very clean, deep bass compared to the sunfire. Now I understand what THD means. The sunfire was very boomy sometimes but SVS is simply clean and clear.

Congrats on your new PB2-Plus sub. What are you doing with your 20-39 PC+?

Can the SVS PCi series be tuned to lower frequency using the port plug?


Arshad:

I'm happy you are thrilled with the 20-39PCi. It really matters a lot to me when someone lays $600+ on the line at my recommendation and they feel afterwards it is money very well spent.

Yes, the SVS will be much cleaner and will also play flatter, deeper, and louder than the Sunfire. It probably has 1/3 of the Sunfire's distortion in the lowest octaves.

My beloved 20-39PC+ was sold to a good friend and is already in his HT rocking. It has already cracked a drywall joint over there - I couldn't be prouder and I will really miss that sub; it is an outstanding performer.

No, the PCi series cannot be tuned with a port plug. Only the Plus series with the triple ports can be tuned. Fortunately, the 20-39 enclosure has the best blend of extension and SPL and you will not be missing a beat in the stock tune. That sub will provide flat in-room extension to about 17-18 Hz - plenty deep for any DVD. Enjoy!

Regards,

Doc

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
It has already cracked a drywall joint over there - I couldn't be prouder... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaa... Doc, you're a sick man... I love it!

So is the "2" in the house?

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaa... Doc, you're a sick man... I love it!

So is the "2" in the house?

Yes, check my other thread for details. I just ripped off Titan AE in DTS and I wimped out at around 115 dB. I'm going to ruin the house but the sub is coasting.

Doc

[malikarshad]

After calibrating using AVIA disc my HT really rocks. The SVS sub is awesome.
I had to do some rearrangement of my furniture so that the sub is not behind my entertainment center. Otherwise it rattles everything.
And now I get the ultimate pleasure of the HT. I could not help getting out of work early every day just to enjoy my HT. I hope this does not cause me trouble.
Anyway I had a question for Doc that I posted on other thread Reference Level (http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10628) for calibrating the system with Denon AVR 3803 & AVIA disc. Even though the AVIA disc is playing in manual mode when I got to 3803 channel level setup it play the internal tones along with AVIA tones. So I had to pause AVIA and change the channel level. So I'm unsure whether my calibration is 100% accurate. I have a Rat Shack Digital SPL meter, the AVIA disc suggest that the needle meter is better for calibrating HT than the Digital one. Do I really have to get the needle meter or it does not matter.
Thanks a lot for your help and support