BluRay FAIL [Archive]

Micah Cohen

08-10-2010, 11:14 PM

My name is Micah, and I have failed at BluRay. This is my story.

Since 1995, when I was an "early adopter," I have had four DVD players. The first was one of the original Panasonic DVD players, and cost over $400. But since then I've learned that even the cheaper players do just fine, and for about the last five years I've been using a $39 Pioneer progressive-scan DVD player that I probably bought at Wal-Mart.

It's connected to my stupendous Sony RPTV; component video direct to TV & optical audio to an antique (circa 1995) Denon processor. The picture quality is close to perfect. Calibrated regularly with AVIA, films from SD-DVD are rendered incredibly film-like. Lines are sharp, black is black, there's no jitter, and while there is natural film grain there is no artifacting, smearing, or mosquitoing. All is right with the world.

And then my wife says, "I'll get you a BluRay player for your birthday!"

I have no real interest in BluRay discs. I already own most of the great films on DVD. I wouldn't rebuy them. I'm not interested in superduper extras, Internet streaming, chat-while-watching bonus features. (All I want is the film.) But I was under the impression that a BluRay player would be a good investment. I thought the blue laser would read SD-DVDs much better than the older DVD player technology (red laser?). SD-DVDs would bloom into high definition! Brighter brights, whiter whites! I also thought that the all-digital HDMI video connection would be a great thing (and I'd keep the optical audio connected to the processor).

So we went to buy a new Sony BluRay player, the newest thing (recommended by you!). I brought it home and connected it just the way I thought I would; HDMI video direct to TV & optical audio to the processor. Then, I set about calibrating the HDMI input on the TV. After about a week of fiddling around and many A-B comparisons, I came to the startling conclusion that my $39 Pioneer DVD player looked much better than the new BluRay player.

Images rendered by the BluRay player were everything that DVD images were not. Even after multiple calibrations, changes and adjustments, increases and decreases in resolutions, the BluRay player delivered jittery, smearing pictures filled with artifacts. Yes, brights were brighter. But even after calibration, film images were just too bright, and began to look like video games! I couldn't understand it. Everybody's talking about how BluRay players make everything look fantastic, realistic, amazing! And yet, I didn't see anything I liked at all. Nothing looked film-like. Everything looked cold and digital. What was I doing wrong?

Was it merely that I was playing SD-DVDs on the BluRay player? Could this really be it? Was everything I thought I knew about how the blue laser makes SD-DVD "look better" wrong? Was HDMI just too good, rendering defects instead of images?

(At this point in the story I returned the BluRay player, and exchanged it for a newer Sony DVD player, one that also had an HDMI out. But when I got this new Sony DVD player home I discovered, to my horror, that it did not have an optical audio output. Since I didn't have a coax cable for the audio out, I ended up returning the Sony DVD player also. I reconnected my $39 Pioneer... and all is right with the world again.)

I'm the only person in the world unhappy with BluRay technology, aren't I? I'm the only person in the world happy with a six-year-old progressive scan DVD player outputting 480p via component video and optical audio outs, aren't I?

Why me?

MC

Conradicles

08-10-2010, 11:18 PM

Hang it up dude and get a black and white tube tv...they are cool too.

dudeinaroom

08-10-2010, 11:24 PM

I don't know, but your problem may be related to my problem with Sony. Every product I have had from them has turned into a useless collection of silicon fortified paper weights.

F1nut

08-10-2010, 11:25 PM

Micah, you should know by now that the latest and greatest isn't always so.

Face

08-10-2010, 11:31 PM

Micah, you should know by now that the latest and greatest isn't always so.
Let me put it into terms you can relate to.

It's like buying a SACD player and bitching that it doesn't sound any better, meanwhile the comparison was done with only a redbook disk. :D

Nicknice

08-10-2010, 11:37 PM

I may have missed it but did you actually play a blueray movie? I'm guessing that the blue ray player was up converting the dvd's to 720p or 1080i. Maybe it was converting the dvd's to a resolution other than your tv's native resolution, which could lead to degradation of the picture.

F1nut

08-10-2010, 11:39 PM

It's like buying a SACD player and bitching that it doesn't sound any better, meanwhile the comparison was done with only a redbook disk.

Yeah, but he's saying the DVD was worse on the new player than it was on the old one and since he has a lot of DVD's, that is important to him.

dkg999

08-10-2010, 11:40 PM

Put me in the Bluray is a marginal improvement over SD DVD's category. It's certainly not the level of improvement to justify all the hype. It is an improvement, just a somewhat disappointing one.

disneyjoe7

08-10-2010, 11:47 PM

I was one to say Blu-Ray play back of DVD I didn't like, and a DVD player could be better.

Demiurge

08-10-2010, 11:49 PM

First, if you don't really care about better PQ, be it from Blu-Ray discs or upscaled SD-DVDs, why did you buy one (accept the gift) in the first place since it was inevitably going to be returned?

Second, I have a hard time believing that your Sony Blu-Ray player is putting out a poorer picture than your SD-DVD player unless you have some setting wrong. In fact, other than that it doesn't make any sense. I can only compare my Oppo BDP-83 to my old SD-DVD player and there isn't an SD-DVD in my collection it doesn't make look better and I'm projecting onto a 120" screen.

Probably the same reason my mom says her early 80s Goldstar TV puts out the best image she's seen to date. Insanity. :)

Toolfan66

08-10-2010, 11:56 PM

Well I have done some A/B Test with DVDs and BluRays not only the disks but players as well. And the DVD's look better on my BluRay player then the 3or4 DVD players I have, also doing the A/B test with the movies I have on DVD and BluRay the BluRays kill the DVD's in PQ and SQ. now some of the BluRays they put out of older movies I feel look worse on BluRay then DVD it's like they did nothing to bring the movie to life. That's why I am very picky about what BluRays I buy. Some movies I still buy on DVD cause I don't care about the visual effects of the movie, plus I save $10 in doing so.

Demiurge

08-11-2010, 12:07 AM

Yep! There is no doubt there are some terrible Blu-Rays out there for PQ and SQ. Most of them are night and day difference in quality Blu-Ray over SD-DVD, though.

I was blown away by the first Blu-Ray I played in my system and I was very happy with what I had prior.

BlueFox

08-11-2010, 02:24 AM

Either the BR player was broken, or your eyes are broken. ;)

I had (still have) a great DVD player, the Sony DVP-9100ES. It did a great job of upconverting DVDs to 1080i, and only cost $1299 new. My $499 Oppo BD83 is equal or better for DVDs, and Blurays are fantastic in both picture quality, and sound. There is no way the $1299 Sony could equal BR audio or video, let alone a $39 DVD player.

George Grand

08-11-2010, 08:05 AM

Tough room eh son?

What's blu-ray?

shack

08-11-2010, 08:17 AM

What's blu-ray?

George, that is something the kids think is cool (maybe not for us old guys).

If you had taken the time you could have looked it up on your iPad. :D

I don't have a blu-ray either. I'm sure I'm missing something...but since I don't have it...I don't know what I'm missing. Ignorance is bliss.

Micah Cohen

08-11-2010, 08:19 AM

ohskigod

08-11-2010, 08:26 AM

I snagged a Sony Playstation 3 as a blueray player for the theater, and actually like the picture quality for DVD's over my old Oppo, but not by much. I'll say this, I still buy DVD's, the only Blue ray I will get is if it's a effects laden movie or something where the bit of extra clarity will pay off. I am not buying "The Notebook" on frikkin blue ray.

so I am in the "I like the player but the format itself isnt the biggest deal to me" camp. While I'm not on the same page as you in terms of thinking it's worse than DVD, I feel where you are coming from on the "whats the big whoop" front.

Keiko

08-11-2010, 08:32 AM

This has been discussed. Some BD players don't upscale SD as well as others. The PS3 is said to do well at upconverting SD DVD. I have an earlier 80g PS3 and it's a good machine, but I still prefer my Yammie for SD upconversion. I own a few blu-ray titles and they are nice. There is an improvement in PQ and SQ, but a decent SD player w/upconversion works just as well for me. Consider the costs of BD discs vs previewed DVDs that can be had dirt cheap....I'm with Micah and will continue to camp with SD.

Besides, 2ch, vinyl, SACD and tubes is where it's at anyway. :p

Rock Steady! ;)

Toolfan66

08-11-2010, 08:51 AM

Besides, 2ch, vinyl, SACD and tubes is where it's at anyway. :p
Rock Steady! ;)

Yep!!! I put so much in my HT,now its chop liver as my wife calls it..:eek:

When I want to watch a movie it's fantastic but I don't put any more money into it..

Conradicles

08-11-2010, 08:59 AM

Could it be your TV is outdated? What is the model #?

tonyb

08-11-2010, 09:18 AM

The quality of the video on alot of BRD are suspect IMHO. Sure,you have some that stand out,but for the most part, my Pioneer 59 AVI looks just as good on standard discs. I have some movies in both formats and to tell the truth, not much difference,if any. My suggestion to the OP is to try and pick up a used 59 avi,great up conversion,HDMI,optical,SACD, and for under 175 bucks used, still a steal. I'll never part with mine.

vc69

08-11-2010, 09:55 AM

Yeah, but he's saying the DVD was worse on the new player than it was on the old one and since he has a lot of DVD's, that is important to him.

Which is exactly why he is going to have to spend some cash for a decent player.

Micah, I know I have posted the reasons behind what you are seeing in another of your threads regarding this issue. Have you disregarded that information? I ain't bs'n ya man. :confused:

Keiko

08-11-2010, 10:02 AM

I don't think blu-ray has delivered on some of it's promises either. 7.1 audio? How many BR titles out there that are actually 7.1 and is it really necessary? You do get the BD Live and discs extras, but for the most part I find all of that useless. Firmware updates I find to be an inconvenience also. I just wanna watch the dang movie for Pete's sake.

Demiurge

08-11-2010, 10:16 AM

Tough room indeed.

Fact is, everyone's got an opinion, eh?

The most important thing to me is PQ. Most important. My Sony TV has one of the best rated upscalers inside it already. I ended up setting the BluRay player to output 480i -- interlaced! -- so the TV could upconvert the image to 1080p with no conflict. The PQ -- a BD player playing SD-DVD, don't forget -- was crapola. Smeary, digital, over-bright.

Thanks for the clarification. This lead to the assumption you don't care much about PQ:

I have no real interest in BluRay discs. I already own most of the great films on DVD. I wouldn't rebuy them. I'm not interested in superduper extras, Internet streaming, chat-while-watching bonus features. (All I want is the film.) But I was under the impression that a BluRay player would be a good investment.

If PQ was most important, and cost was no concern, you would have an interest in Blu-Ray discs and you would rebuy your movies on Blu-Ray. At least in the instances where they did a good job in upgrading the image quality over SD-DVD. There are several trustworthy websites out there that detail all of this for you so you don't even have to guess.

I'm all for better PQ myself, but to me it isn't worth the cost to upgrade all of my old movies. I only did that for a select few, besides....I get the bulk of my movies on Blu-Ray through Netflix.

You didn't say whether or not you checked out a Blu-Ray disc on this player before you sent it back. If PQ is most important to you and you didn't check out a Blu-Ray I can't help but find that odd. If I were you I would get a BDP that upscales better, but alas if you're satisfied with your $39 DVD that's cool. Just know there are players out there that don't cost all that much and will put out a much better image.

tonyb

08-11-2010, 10:26 AM

Once Micah gets a newer TV, he may have more use for Blu-ray, newer technologies cost money. Go to a standard best buy and see a display with a BDP on a newer 1080p LCD or plasma. I came from a Sony 60 inch HD RPTV just like you,and believe me,my pioneer plasma smoked it so bad,it ain't even funny.

cstmar01

08-11-2010, 10:32 AM

I have both a blue ray player the Pio BDP-05FD and then a DVD player the Pio 58AV. Personally I do see a difference in terms of picture quality from a blue ray than a SD DVD. But then again I think calibration is important, and also the larger the image the more I notice things. Such as when I hooked it all up to my 46" TV things looked good on both. Then I used an old DVD player and it still looked pretty good.

Then move to a projector, and man that older DVD player looked like crap to me. artifacts ect all over and just terrible. Pop the same movie into the blue ray player and it looked a lot better.

Also you stated you were using the TV to upconvert the picture, did you also try the player itself to upconvert? I ask as to me there should be a very noticable difference between a 480i picture and a 720P or 1080P and if there is not with the player, then its a pile of crap IMO.

AsSiMiLaTeD

08-11-2010, 10:57 AM

It's pretty simple really...

Your Pio player likely doesn't do any upconverting, allowing your TV to do all the work. The new BDP is now doing the upconversion, and most likely it has a chip that's inferior to the one in the TV.

You have 3 options:

1 - Buy a better Blu Ray player to use as your Blu Ray / DVD player. One of the Oppo players, or one of the better Panasonic or Pioneer players should do the job quite nicely. There's not a Sony player that I'm aware of (mine included) taht's going to do a real good job at upconverting.
2 - Keep your Pioneer DVD player and buy a Blu Ray player strictly for blu ray playback. Although the players vary significantly on DVD upconversion, they're often alot closer in BD playback. I'm not sure which Sony you have, but mine is an excellend BDP.
3 - Just kee-p your current player and give up on blu ray altogether.

FWIW, I don't really think you can claim to have failed at Blu Ray when you have not actually tried playing a blu ray disc, don't you actually have to try something before you can fail at it?

concealer404

08-11-2010, 11:01 AM

For what it's worth, my Pioneer DV-50A that Coolsax now has looked better playing SD-DVDs than my BDP-51FD does.

But on the other hand, i didn't buy a Blu-Ray player to make my SD-DVDs look better, either.

George Grand

08-11-2010, 11:22 AM

Do they use blu-ray in the movie theaters?

cnh

08-11-2010, 11:28 AM

Good point Mr. Grand.

And +1, Concealer,

I'm pretty sure what Micah is experiencing is the less than cinematic quality of most BDP upconversion. If you haven't seen much upconversion and are used to the softer/darker movie theater image...then an Upconverted SD-DVD may look worse to you. I know I sometimes 'prefer' Not to BDP my SD-DVDs for similar reasons. Though I'm NOT going to tell you that an actual Blu-ray disc is not a real step up in picture and sound quality.

cnh

vc69

08-11-2010, 12:00 PM

gdb

08-11-2010, 12:04 PM

I have a Pioneer DVD player (220 model) that plays standard DVDs better than my Panasonic BD85 Bluray. If I didn't already have enough stuff I'd be looking at this Marantz bluray:

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/85113

BlueFox

08-11-2010, 06:46 PM

Do they use blu-ray in the movie theaters?

No, Bluray is to bring the theater experience to the home, both in PQ and audio. There is no comparison to a regular DVD with a good, calibrated TV. It like black and white versus color, with lossless soundtracks. I read, on this forum somewhere, thay are still using lossy soundtracks in theaters. If that is true then BR is better than the theater.

cokewithvanilla

08-11-2010, 07:06 PM

I find this thread to be really interesting. I connect all my TV's to computers, I can play DVD's, Bluray, 1080p or 480p videos (which is what I mostly do, MKVs mostly)....

I have never, ever, found a case where playing 480 video looked better than 1080... there are simply more pixels... 480 is like taking a picture with a camera, scaling it down, then magnifying it, while 1080 is as it was taken.

I find it rather odd that you did not comment on the increased pixels, on the actual point of a Bluray player. The purpose was not to make your dvd's look better.. it was to play better quality video (unless I totally missed something). I don't think it's fair to hate on bluray because it doesn't play your low quality DVDs better :)

With that said, why don't you use your old DVD player for DVDs and your bluray player for blurays?

edit: have you even tried a bluray disc?

PSOVLSK

08-11-2010, 07:47 PM

I'm the only person in the world unhappy with BluRay technology, aren't I?

I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with Blu-ray, I just prefer HD DVD to Blu-ray:eek:. Talk about fail. At least your preferred format is still in production...for now;)

George Grand

08-11-2010, 07:55 PM

No, Bluray is to bring the theater experience to the home, both in PQ and audio. There is no comparison to a regular DVD with a good, calibrated TV. It like black and white versus color, with lossless soundtracks. I read, on this forum somewhere, thay are still using lossy soundtracks in theaters. If that is true then BR is better than the theater.

So, they don't use blu-ray? I'm trying to re-create the theater experience here and I need to know.

cokewithvanilla

08-11-2010, 08:04 PM

So, they don't use blu-ray? I'm trying to re-create the theater experience here and I need to know.

you could ask someone at the theater :)

I thought (i could be wrong) I asked someone at one point and they use something with much, much higher resolution (like 4k or more).

Ron-P

08-11-2010, 09:22 PM

What you need to succeed at Blu-ray...

1) A TV that is 1080p and is larger then 40"

2) A Blu-ray player

3) Blu-ray movies

Get all that, and you will be successful, don't, and you won't.

tcrossma

08-11-2010, 09:52 PM

What you need to succeed at Blu-ray...

1) A TV that is 1080p and is larger then 40"

2) A Blu-ray player

3) Blu-ray movies

Get all that, and you will be successful, don't, and you won't.

Agree with the larger than 40", disagree with the 1080p requirement though.

DSkip

08-11-2010, 10:14 PM

Agree with the larger than 40", disagree with the 1080p requirement though.

I disagree with both. I have a 1080i Magnavox 32" LCD that I purchased 4-5 years ago before the 1080p resolution flooded the market. My parents have what was a high end 55" rear-projection lcd with 1080i.

I told my wife I never wanted to see movies on their tv again and would rather watch it on mine. The picture is clearer, crisper, and the 60 hz lag time is less noticeable. Its a better experience overall. For larger TV's, 1080p and 120 hz seems to be a must. For the smaller TV's, there still is a noticeable jump from DVD to Blu-Ray, albeit you are only getting a fraction of what you COULD be getting from a nicer, larger set.

Keiko

08-11-2010, 10:34 PM

What you need to succeed at Blu-ray...

1) A TV that is 1080p and is larger then 40"

2) A Blu-ray player

3) Blu-ray movies

Get all that, and you will be successful, don't, and you won't.

:confused: My Sammy LCD is 40", capable of 1080p and works great with my PS3 for blu-rays. This is all irrelevant to the OP anyway. Michah's issue is with SD upconversion on a BD player.

Demiurge

08-11-2010, 10:39 PM

Then perhaps the thread should have been titled SD-DVD FAIL.

Keiko

08-11-2010, 10:48 PM

Then perhaps the thread should have been titled SD-DVD FAIL.

That's an amusing thought, Demi, but is also irrelevant. The OP reads quite clear. Fact is, some blu players do not upscale DVDs very well.

cokewithvanilla

08-11-2010, 11:03 PM

That's an amusing thought, Demi, but is also irrelevant. The OP reads quite clear. Fact is, some blu players do not upscale DVDs very well.

So how is that a bluray fail? The purpose of bluray isn't to upscale DVD's. No one that I know got the impression that if they buy a bluray player, their dvd's would look better; and as far as I know, that isn't being advertised.

It seems more like he had his expectations in the wrong place.

conqur

08-11-2010, 11:12 PM

i just got a samsung bdp1600. as regards to dvd upconversion i can tell u i do see a difference between standard dvd and hi def. i'll go as far to say that my toshiba 37in lcd only scales upt o 1080i and i can still see a difference in my movies both bluray and dvd. people who say that don't see a difference aren't paying close enough attention in my opinion.

FTGV

08-11-2010, 11:23 PM

The improvement wrought by the new lossless audio formats themselves is worth the price of admission.

Keiko

08-11-2010, 11:26 PM

No one that I know got the impression that if they buy a bluray player, their dvd's would look better; and as far as I know, that isn't being advertised.

Really? Care to explain then why these manufacturers boast in their advertisements the BD players abilities to upscale SD-DVD? Again, some upscale better than others.

FAIL!

Go advertise your speeding tickets there, sport. :rolleyes:

Demiurge

08-11-2010, 11:33 PM

That's an amusing thought, Demi, but is also irrelevant. The OP reads quite clear. Fact is, some blu players do not upscale DVDs very well.

No, its actually completely relevant. The OP didn't even watch any Blu-Ray discs, despite claiming that PQ is the most important thing to him.

Then he concluded with this:

I'm the only person in the world unhappy with BluRay technology, aren't I? I'm the only person in the world happy with a six-year-old progressive scan DVD player outputting 480p via component video and optical audio outs, aren't I?

He didn't even experience Blu-Ray technology! All he experienced was a Blu-Ray player that didn't upscale his inferior SD-DVDs to his liking. Fair point, but that has nothing to do with Blu-Ray technology.

cokewithvanilla

08-11-2010, 11:41 PM

Really? Care to explain then why these manufacturers boast in their advertisements the BD players abilities to upscale SD-DVD? Again, some upscale better than others.

FAIL!

Go advertise your speeding tickets there, sport. :rolleyes:

I love the personal attacks... over the internet. Good job. Everyone is impressed. I promise.

Anyhow, I guess I missed the advertisements. It was probably hidden behind the fact that there is this new media that is 10x better than dvd... seems like that message was a bit more important.

I think it would be hard to argue that the purpose of bluray is for upscaling DVDs.

Besides, he knew well in advance that his tv had one of the best upscalers (or whatever he said)... did he think a random player off the shelf at walmart would have a better scaler in it?

edit: is the laser doing any of the scaling??? if not, how can it fail?

Keiko

08-11-2010, 11:46 PM

Fair enough, Demi. I can see where your coming from now. In Michah's case, if he wants the best possible PQ out of SD-DVD, then it's probably in his best interest to invest in a quality DVD player w/upconversion and save some coin. As I understand, only the pricier BD players upscale SD to the best possible pic quality.

Conradicles

08-11-2010, 11:49 PM

once micah gets a newer tv, he may have more use for blu-ray, newer technologies cost money. Go to a standard best buy and see a display with a bdp on a newer 1080p lcd or plasma. I came from a sony 60 inch hd rptv just like you,and believe me,my pioneer plasma smoked it so bad,it ain't even funny.

b-i-n-g-o

cokewithvanilla

08-11-2010, 11:51 PM

Fair point, but that has nothing to do with Blu-Ray technology.

Exactly.

bluray isn't failing here. perhaps that players upconverter is, but what does that have to do with anything?

Keiko

08-11-2010, 11:52 PM

I love the personal attacks... over the internet. Good job. Everyone is impressed. I promise.

Anyhow, I guess I missed the advertisements. It was probably hidden behind the fact that there is this new media that is 10x better than dvd... seems like that message was a bit more important.

I think it would be hard to argue that the purpose of bluray is for upscaling DVDs.

Besides, he knew well in advance that his tv had one of the best upscalers (or whatever he said)... did he think a random player off the shelf at walmart would have a better scaler in it?

Don't confuse felicitous sarcasm with personal attacks, kid. You're still way off base. Now, go turn your music down. ;)

cokewithvanilla

08-11-2010, 11:54 PM

Don't confuse felicitous sarcasm with personal attacks, kid. You're still way off base. Now, go turn your music down. ;)

I must be... I guess I am getting bluray and up converting confused. They must have something to do with each other :confused:

vc69

08-12-2010, 09:38 AM

I love the way Micah makes these long winded posts, then totally bails on the thread. Me thinks we have been had. :eek:

Very funny indeed.:p

Micah Cohen

08-12-2010, 11:25 AM

I love the way Micah makes these long winded posts, then totally bails on the thread.
I'm found out!

Micah, I know I have posted the reasons behind what you are seeing in another of your threads regarding this issue. Have you disregarded that information? I ain't bs'n ya man.
I'm not ignoring you, truly. Just, who can keep up?

If PQ was most important, and cost was no concern, you would have an interest in Blu-Ray discs and you would rebuy your movies on Blu-Ray.
Not if the PQ of my SD-DVDs viewed on my super Sony KDS-60A3000 SXRD (eh-hem, you just can't get a better movie-viewing television, according to many) is superior in film-like-ness to the digital smear of BD.

Once Micah gets a newer TV, he may have more use for Blu-ray
See above. Sony KDS-60A3000 SXRD. I'm done. Fini. TV success.

Also you stated you were using the TV to upconvert the picture, did you also try the player itself to upconvert?
Si, I tried it all ways to Tuesday. The TV upconverter is far better than any player, in this case.

It seems more like he had his expectations in the wrong place.
At least I got y'all workin. But yes, I did have expectations. I expected BD to play SD-DVD "better." I was wrong-o. That's all. And no, you're right again, I did not even play a BluRay disc in the system while I had it set up. I DIDN'T DO IT, I admit. I didn't even try. Thread FAIL, yes. I was merely worried about SD-DVD on a BD player. The long and the short of it.

I'm sticking with SD-DVD, and a lame old-school DVD player with Optical Audio out, and there I shall remain.

MC

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 11:28 AM

At least I got y'all workin. But yes, I did have expectations. I expected BD to play SD-DVD "better." I was wrong-o. That's all. And no, you're right again, I did not even play a BluRay disc in the system while I had it set up. I DIDN'T DO IT, I admit. I didn't even try. Thread FAIL, yes. I was merely worried about SD-DVD on a BD player. The long and the short of it.

I'm sticking with SD-DVD, and a lame old-school DVD player with Optical Audio out, and there I shall remain.

MC

If your TV is upconverting, I am assuming its a 720 or 1080 TV. Can you please, please just *try* a BD disc before giving up entirely? I think you might otherwise be missing out on something that you will enjoy in the end.

Micah Cohen

08-12-2010, 11:32 AM

Can you please, please just *try* a BD disc before giving up entirely? We might be too late, man. I think the patient's DOA.

But I never say never, ok?

MC

BlueFox

08-12-2010, 11:50 AM

TECHNOKID

08-12-2010, 01:46 PM

I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with Blu-ray, I just prefer HD DVD to Blu-ray:eek:. Talk about fail. At least your preferred format is still in production...for now;)Actually, it fits me that HDDVD failed to succeed as I got great pricing on my players and the HDDVD contents that are still available can be had at ridiculus pricing. Most HDDVD players are also great upscalers for for DVD content. I never cared for "Blurry" and am quite content with the great HDDVD-upscaler players I acquired for a decent price.

I disagree with both. I have a 1080i Magnavox 32" LCD that I purchased 4-5 years ago before the 1080p resolution flooded the market. My parents have what was a high end 55" rear-projection lcd with 1080i.

I told my wife I never wanted to see movies on their tv again and would rather watch it on mine. The picture is clearer, crisper, and the 60 hz lag time is less noticeable. Its a better experience overall. For larger TV's, 1080p and 120 hz seems to be a must. For the smaller TV's, there still is a noticeable jump from DVD to Blu-Ray, albeit you are only getting a fraction of what you COULD be getting from a nicer, larger set.You could be quite content with 480i on a 32" as this size TV is much too small to really see huge difference between 480i and 1080p. In order to see any slight difference between the DVD and HD rez, you need a TV of good quality with minimum of 40+" and 50"+ for any significant difference.

:confused: My Sammy LCD is 40", capable of 1080p and works great with my PS3 for blu-rays. This is all irrelevant to the OP anyway. Michah's issue is with SD upconversion on a BD player.It seems like the BD and TV upscaling might interfere with each other according to his comparision report.

i just got a samsung bdp1600. as regards to dvd upconversion i can tell u i do see a difference between standard dvd and hi def. i'll go as far to say that my toshiba 37in lcd only scales upt o 1080i and i can still see a difference in my movies both bluray and dvd. people who say that don't see a difference aren't paying close enough attention in my opinion.There too, 37"? I have a hard time to believe you could see that much difference, unless you are glued on the TV or maybe in your case you do pay too much attention and it plays trick on you?

Fair enough, Demi. I can see where your coming from now. In Michah's case, if he wants the best possible PQ out of SD-DVD, then it's probably in his best interest to invest in a quality DVD player w/upconversion and save some coin. As I understand, only the pricier BD players upscale SD to the best possible pic quality.I fully agree with your statements. Quality of the player is much more important than its so called content ability. IMHO the OP would be much better of with a good quality oppo converter then a Sony BD player!

Exactly.

bluray isn't failing here. perhaps that players upconverter is, but what does that have to do with anything?Some we have to keep in mind, BD was forced into up-conversion because of the competition with Toshiba but they never cared for it, it wasn't their format and their goal always been to kill DVD along with HDDVD so why would they make an effort for decent up-conversion of DVD now that Toshiba isn't a threath anymore :rolleyes: ????

I must be... I guess I am getting bluray and up converting confused. They must have something to do with each other :confused:No, 2 different technologies that are included within the same player to allow you backward compatibility along with PQ gain (thanks to Toshiba).

This thread makes no sense. It is not the job of a BR player to make a DVD look better. If it does do that then great. If it does not, and your TV does a better job, then let the TV do it. A BR player does not force you to use it's upconversion. A BR player is suppossed to play BR DVDs, and a regular DVD cannot do that.BD was forced into providing up-conversion because of its competitor format (DVD and HDDVD) but never really cared so for that simple reason you are right. In the case of the OP (and many that already own many DVDs) the best option is a good quality upscaler (unless your TV already provides you with great quality of upscaling).

Finally, it baffles me that most will put down (consider low end) Sony and when it comes to BD player they'll jump on it eyes closed. While Sony is the creater of BD, it doesn't mean it is the best product out there (As an example; look at Black & Decker tools, great idea for new products but the brand it self is crap! We should see it with the same eyes and thinking when it comes to Sony products!!!).

Demiurge

08-12-2010, 01:50 PM

Not if the PQ of my SD-DVDs viewed on my super Sony KDS-60A3000 SXRD (eh-hem, you just can't get a better movie-viewing television, according to many) is superior in film-like-ness to the digital smear of BD.

Unfortunately, the PQ of your SD-DVDs are not superior to in film-like-ness on Blu-Ray. Its not even a point of contention. You'd know this if you'd have actually watched the Blu-Ray version of any SD-DVD in your collection, as people have pointed out.

Stick with whatever makes you happy, but just know that if you truly value PQ above all else, you are sticking with an inferior format on an inferior player.

This isn't Blu-Ray FAIL, its upscale fail.

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 02:18 PM

We might be too late, man. I think the patient's DOA.

But I never say never, ok?

MC

Hah.

You could be quite content with 480i on a 32" as this size TV is much too small to really see huge difference between 480i and 1080p. In order to see any slight difference between the DVD and HD rez, you need a TV of good quality with minimum of 40+" and 50"+ for any significant difference.

I know that's what everyone says, but hell, go to youtube and play a 480 video on your 14.1 inch laptop, then play a 720... tell me if you see a difference. 1080p on a 15.6 inch screen looks so much nicer than 720 on that same size screen (in my opinion). Also, for the price, there is no sense in not going with 1080p anymore.

No, 2 different technologies that are included within the same player to allow you backward compatibility along with PQ gain (thanks to Toshiba).'

I was being sarcastic :)

Micah Cohen

08-12-2010, 02:41 PM

Unfortunately, the PQ of your SD-DVDs are not superior to in film-like-ness on Blu-Ray.

Film-like-ness. Not, you know, digitally perfect. Like... film.

And this is what I like about DVD. It renders film the most film-like. I want "imperfection." I want black blacks. I want grain. I want texture and depth. I don't want mosquitos and dot-crawl and bright glare and "three-dee."

I'm sure BD is effing a-maze-zing, man. I'm sure it's the pope's poop. But if I'm watching OUT OF THE PAST I want it to look like I'm running the film from the negative, not from a computer. And so... I'm standing down.

My TV upscales my 480p DVDs, and BINGO. I got "film."

Hooray for BluRay! Go!

...I'll wait here.

MC

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 02:46 PM

And this is what I like about DVD. It renders film the most film-like. I want "imperfection." I want black blacks. I want grain. I want texture and depth. I don't want mosquitos and dot-crawl and bright glare and "three-dee."

my biggest problem with dvd is how blurry the image... there is no detail. I think bluray is a step towards solving this problem (I still think that my 61 inch tv should have higher resolution than my 15 inch laptop). I guess I missed all this grain stuff. Isn't it possible that blurays will have the same quality use see in dvds? After all, a dvd and bluray have the same source (whatever filmed it), it's just bluray has less compression and keeps more detail than dvd.

After all, it's not as if they used film to record the movie for you DVD lovers and then some kid with a fancy new digital camera came behind them to record for the BR. Same source, should have the same qualities, only better.. since there is less compression....

Demiurge

08-12-2010, 02:59 PM

Film-like-ness. Not, you know, digitally perfect. Like... film.

And this is what I like about DVD. It renders film the most film-like. I want "imperfection." I want black blacks. I want grain. I want texture and depth. I don't want mosquitos and dot-crawl and bright glare and "three-dee."

I'm sure BD is effing a-maze-zing, man. I'm sure it's the pope's poop. But if I'm watching OUT OF THE PAST I want it to look like I'm running the film from the negative, not from a computer. And so... I'm standing down.

My TV upscales my 480p DVDs, and BINGO. I got "film."

Hooray for BluRay! Go!

...I'll wait here.

MC

You're all over the place.

First you insinuate PQ doesn't mean much to you.

Then you expressly say PQ is the most important.

Now you're back to telling us you don't want the best PQ and instead want film-like-ness

I took a shot at figuring what the hell you meant by that, but I guess I was wrong. Some movies are shot digitally, yet still most are shot with film. From a PQ perspective, Blu-Ray offers the best transfer from both, whether you want to admit it or not.

What you're in love with is DVD, and that's your prerogative. Which means PQ (which to most would include detail and clarity) is not all that important to you. ;)

PSOVLSK

08-12-2010, 03:09 PM

Actually, it fits me that HDDVD failed to succeed as I got great pricing on my players and the HDDVD contents that are still available can be had at ridiculus pricing. Most HDDVD players are also great upscalers for for DVD content. I never cared for "Blurry" and am quite content with the great HDDVD-upscaler players I acquired for a decent price.

It's all about perspective. You're being positive while I'm being negative:o:D

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 03:15 PM

you need to take upconverting out of the picture. that is skewing your perspective. Get a bluray, and I'm sure you will see what we all mean.

Ever done any compression of movies? Say you wanted to rip a dvd to your computer, or a BR... the smaller you make it, the more fine details start to go away... well... imagine the difference in the amount you have to compress between 7-9 gigs and 40-60 gigs... that's about the only difference in BR and DVD

cstmar01

08-12-2010, 03:26 PM

well as stated before he doesn't intend to buy any of the old movies he has on blue ray so who knows.

Honestly all blue ray players can be different dependent on their upscaling, so its understandable if he didn't like the picture of one. However I feel that in order to get a feel for what blue ray is all about a film that was intended to be seen on the player should be played and then a decision should be made.

There are several sources to let you know what films are highly rated in terms of PQ and SQ for blues.

It really shouldn't be this hard, nor raise this much argument. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. But it also should be tried first before opinions can be made, as should be a lot of things in life. Its like a child with a healthy food, did you try to eat it? no, well then how do you know you don't like it, you don't now do you? :p

who knows, maybe he would pop in a blue ray, be so blown away from the PQ that he craps himself in the middle of the room and stand there in pure awe of the whole thing...

then steps in it. ;)

Disc Jockey

08-12-2010, 03:27 PM

I ended up setting the BluRay player to output 480i -- interlaced! -- so the TV could upconvert the image to 1080p with no conflict.

This may have been the source of your problems and artifacting. Sending a 480i as opposed to the 480p like you were with your existing player means your tv has to deinterlace later to get it to 1080p - an extra step that you weren't taking before. There are a lot of ways to get deinterlacing wrong and there is probably more potential in that step for introducing artifacts than in the scaling process.

But there is no way that buying a BD player is going to give you any advantage over what you have now if you are not going to watch blu-ray discs and you are using the tv's scaler. So save your money, sit back, and enjoy the show.

Face

08-12-2010, 03:31 PM

You're all over the place.

First you insinuate PQ doesn't mean much to you.

Then you expressly say PQ is the most important.

Now you're back to telling us you don't want the best PQ and instead want film-like-ness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYdq0ABH3so

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 03:35 PM

well as stated before he doesn't intend to buy any of the old movies he has on blue ray so who knows.

Yeah, but he might buy a new bluray when dvd's become extinct ;) Unless, of course, all new movies are crap :D

It shouldn't have caused such an argument... I think what did it was "Bluray Fail".... when it was more of a consumer awareness fail (bluray wasn't designed to make dvd better).

tcrossma

08-12-2010, 03:37 PM

This thread makes no sense. It is not the job of a BR player to make a DVD look better. If it does do that then great. If it does not, and your TV does a better job, then let the TV do it. A BR player does not force you to use it's upconversion. A BR player is suppossed to play BR DVDs, and a regular DVD cannot do that.

I don't think this is entirely true. I really have no interest in having two disc players hooked up at the same time, so I would want a BR player that plays SD-DVD's at least equal to my SD-DVD player. That's like saying it's not an HD TV's job to display SD broadcasts in acceptable manner.

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 03:40 PM

I don't think this is entirely true. I really have no interest in having two disc players hooked up at the same time, so I would want a BR player that plays SD-DVD's at least equal to my SD-DVD player. That's like saying it's not an HD TV's job to display SD broadcasts in acceptable manner.

Indeed. And I think you will generally find this to be the case if the players are the same quality. He is having trouble getting the scaler on his TV to completely take over for SD content. Perhaps this is the players fault, perhaps not... in any event, it has NOTHING to do with Bluray technology and everything to do with that individual player and the scaler it uses.

BlueFox

08-12-2010, 03:56 PM

I don't think this is entirely true. I really have no interest in having two disc players hooked up at the same time, so I would want a BR player that plays SD-DVD's at least equal to my SD-DVD player. That's like saying it's not an HD TV's job to display SD broadcasts in acceptable manner.

So would I. I have the Oppo BD-83 and it does a great job of upconverting DVDs. I have beaucoup DVDs, and while I do rebuy some as BR, most will stay as DVD. The Oppo upconversion is a reason why I bought the Oppo since for Netflix rentals I get DVDs. I mentioned in an earlier post the Oppo replaced my $1300 Sony DVD player, and it did a great job of upconverting.

However, the main purpose of a BR player is to play BR DVDs, and the main purpose of a HDTV is for HDTV. In fact, many suck at SD. I agree it is nice to have a 2 in 1 piece of gear, but do not complain if your truck does not ride as good as your car. :D

Demiurge

08-12-2010, 04:14 PM

So would I. I have the Oppo BD-83 and it does a great job of upconverting DVDs. I have beaucoup DVDs, and while I do rebuy some as BR, most will stay as DVD. The Oppo upconversion is a reason why I bought the Oppo since for Netflix rentals I get DVDs. I mentioned in an earlier post the Oppo replaced my $1300 Sony DVD player, and it did a great job of upconverting.

However, the main purpose of a BR player is to play BR DVDs, and the main purpose of a HDTV is for HDTV. In fact, many suck at SD. I agree it is nice to have a 2 in 1 piece of gear, but do not complain if your truck does not ride as good as your car. :D

Ditto. I bought the Oppo because it does a great job upscaling all of my SD-DVDs. I had a quality SD-DVD player prior, but the Oppo blows it out of the water.

The main reason for buying the Oppo, however, was for the best Blu-Ray experience for my money. I'm more than satisfied, mileage may vary for others. :)

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 04:21 PM

Ditto. I bought the Oppo because it does a great job upscaling all of my SD-DVDs. I had a quality SD-DVD player prior, but the Oppo blows it out of the water.

The main reason for buying the Oppo, however, was for the best Blu-Ray experience for my money. I'm more than satisfied, mileage may vary for others. :)

I'm probably posting this in the wrong area, but because of all the talk of upconverting, I'll ask:

What, to you, looks better, Random Movie in 7.85 gig 480p DVD upconverted by your Oppo to 1080, or Same Random Movie in BR compressed to 7.85 gig 1080p (as in 1080 real lines, compressed to fit on a DVD)?

vc69

08-12-2010, 05:00 PM

This may have been the source of your problems and artifacting. Sending a 480i as opposed to the 480p like you were with your existing player means your tv has to deinterlace later to get it to 1080p - an extra step that you weren't taking before. There are a lot of ways to get deinterlacing wrong and there is probably more potential in that step for introducing artifacts than in the scaling process.

But there is no way that buying a BD player is going to give you any advantage over what you have now if you are not going to watch blu-ray discs and you are using the tv's scaler. So save your money, sit back, and enjoy the show.

Apparently, many mistakes were made in trying to get the new technology to perform properly in this case study. Micah has firmly placed himself in the "Luddites" camp on this issue. I for one am content to let him rest there peacefully.

Demi,

It's really hard to convey in words just how well the Oppo performs upscaling/deinterlacing of SD-DVD's to anyone who has not seen it. It kind of has to be experienced. :)

Micah Cohen

08-12-2010, 05:29 PM

I'm exhausted.

MC

cokewithvanilla

08-12-2010, 05:32 PM

I'm exhausted.

MC

you started it ;)

Micah Cohen

08-13-2010, 08:05 AM

You'd think I'd'a learned by now.

...MC

TECHNOKID

08-13-2010, 10:26 AM

You'd think I'd'a learned by now.

...MCHere you Micah, you are now at 2K. I heard at 2K you should be all grown up and know what to post or not :D:p;)

Lost

08-13-2010, 04:23 PM

Get yourself a PS3, end of problems....

My name is Micah, and I have failed at BluRay. This is my story.

Since 1995, when I was an "early adopter," I have had four DVD players. The first was one of the original Panasonic DVD players, and cost over $400. But since then I've learned that even the cheaper players do just fine, and for about the last five years I've been using a $39 Pioneer progressive-scan DVD player that I probably bought at Wal-Mart.

It's connected to my stupendous Sony RPTV; component video direct to TV & optical audio to an antique (circa 1995) Denon processor. The picture quality is close to perfect. Calibrated regularly with AVIA, films from SD-DVD are rendered incredibly film-like. Lines are sharp, black is black, there's no jitter, and while there is natural film grain there is no artifacting, smearing, or mosquitoing. All is right with the world.

And then my wife says, "I'll get you a BluRay player for your birthday!"

I have no real interest in BluRay discs. I already own most of the great films on DVD. I wouldn't rebuy them. I'm not interested in superduper extras, Internet streaming, chat-while-watching bonus features. (All I want is the film.) But I was under the impression that a BluRay player would be a good investment. I thought the blue laser would read SD-DVDs much better than the older DVD player technology (red laser?). SD-DVDs would bloom into high definition! Brighter brights, whiter whites! I also thought that the all-digital HDMI video connection would be a great thing (and I'd keep the optical audio connected to the processor).

So we went to buy a new Sony BluRay player, the newest thing (recommended by you!). I brought it home and connected it just the way I thought I would; HDMI video direct to TV & optical audio to the processor. Then, I set about calibrating the HDMI input on the TV. After about a week of fiddling around and many A-B comparisons, I came to the startling conclusion that my $39 Pioneer DVD player looked much better than the new BluRay player.

Images rendered by the BluRay player were everything that DVD images were not. Even after multiple calibrations, changes and adjustments, increases and decreases in resolutions, the BluRay player delivered jittery, smearing pictures filled with artifacts. Yes, brights were brighter. But even after calibration, film images were just too bright, and began to look like video games! I couldn't understand it. Everybody's talking about how BluRay players make everything look fantastic, realistic, amazing! And yet, I didn't see anything I liked at all. Nothing looked film-like. Everything looked cold and digital. What was I doing wrong?

Was it merely that I was playing SD-DVDs on the BluRay player? Could this really be it? Was everything I thought I knew about how the blue laser makes SD-DVD "look better" wrong? Was HDMI just too good, rendering defects instead of images?

(At this point in the story I returned the BluRay player, and exchanged it for a newer Sony DVD player, one that also had an HDMI out. But when I got this new Sony DVD player home I discovered, to my horror, that it did not have an optical audio output. Since I didn't have a coax cable for the audio out, I ended up returning the Sony DVD player also. I reconnected my $39 Pioneer... and all is right with the world again.)

I'm the only person in the world unhappy with BluRay technology, aren't I? I'm the only person in the world happy with a six-year-old progressive scan DVD player outputting 480p via component video and optical audio outs, aren't I?

Why me?

MC

cokewithvanilla

08-13-2010, 04:58 PM

Get yourself a PS3, end of problems....

How would that help?

tonyb

08-13-2010, 08:22 PM

You'd think I'd'a learned by now.

...MC

LOL!! Yeah bro..wtf were you thinkin'?:)

cokewithvanilla

08-13-2010, 08:32 PM

@Lost

I'm really interested in hearing how a PS3 would solve the problems (no sarcasm).

TitaniumMan

08-14-2010, 12:37 PM

cokewithvanilla

08-14-2010, 12:51 PM

I don't want to be one of those threadjackers, but I have a similar problem. I just bought a Ferrari. I don't care about handling or top speed. I just wanted a daily driver with decent fuel mileage. This ain't it. Can someone help? Would a PS3 solve my dilemma? :p

Most definitely, sir. You can set it up in the console, and run it through the lcd on the dash. You can then play any of the driving games you wish, you will probably be given the option of driving a Dodge Neon or a Honda Civic. The greatest thing about it is even while getting 30mpg in the game, you will be spending no money on gas!

Erik Tracy

08-14-2010, 04:35 PM

I did another side by side comparison of blu-ray vs DVD.

My boys still have their DVD copy of Pirates of the Carribean - Curse of the Black Pearl and I have the same on Bluray.

I put the DVD in the fantastically appraised Oppo BPD-83 for its stellar upscaling capabilities, then I 'borrowed' my boys PS3 and put the bluray into that player.

I connected both via HDMI to my 50" plasma tv.

I manually synced both movies to play at the same time and switched back and forth between the two.

The DVD played in the Oppo was very good indeed - no complaints at all - very nice picture.

But once we switched to the bluyray - even in the 'lowly' PS3 - the difference was noticable - you'd have to be a cataract cursed 80 yr old legally blind person not to notice the superior definition and clarity.

If I *had* to live only with the upscaled DVD - I could - very satisfying picture quality.

But if I *had* the choice and wanted a better picture with better resolution - bluray all the way baby!