Want a better understanding of tubes?

[RuSsMaN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NCs7YiFRBU

If you do, this is the best 8 minutes and 30 seconds you can spend today.

Cheers,
Russ

[treitz3]

Nice post, Mr. RuSsMaN.

[Kenneth Swauger]

Jolly good, Russ!
Nice Leak amp there.

[george daniel]

one day perhaps I can get my ears on a Leak amp--thanks for posting that.

[thsmith]

Nice ! Thank you !

[Libertyc]

Cool!

[hearingimpared]

Very cool and kept my short attetion span the whole time.

[megasat16]

Tubes = Equalizer in glass bottles. Pick your poison when u grow older.

[mhardy6647]

Vacuum tube (triode) = the most linear electronic amplification device yet devised.

Here's a good primer to vacuum tubes (not exactly modern but, if you have a pair of old-school anaglyph -red/blue - 3D glasses it's got 3D illustrations!), courtesy of Pete Millett at www.tubebooks.org
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/rider_inside.pdf

[megasat16]

Vacuum tube (triode) = the most linear electronic amplification device yet devised.

Here's a good primer to vacuum tubes (not exactly modern but, if you have a pair of old-school analglyph -red/blue - 3D glasses it's got 3D illustrations!), courtesy of Pete Millett at www.tubebooks.org
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/rider_inside.pdf

Linear within certain frequency bandwidth. Power Output drops off after certain frequency bandwidth.

Still, it doesn't mean they don't color the sound. If all Tubes sound the same, no one shall need to roll Toobs in the first place and NOS tubes still will cost $5 a pop. :biggrin:

Modern transistors are the most linear devices (doesn't mean they don't color the sound too) available economically. But the tube advantage is having a really high power tube (Triode or Tetrode) very economically for commercial and industrial use. It's one place where transistors are lacking. But there are some high power Super MOSFETs in the production but still very costly. But in a few years as the production techniques catches up, they will compete more with Tubes in these environments.

Great Video to watch. I love the Vintage Tube Amp near the end of Video but too bad it's not hooked up.

[mhardy6647]

Also worth noting that vacuum tube diodes are the only devices that can handle the enormous amounts of switching current required in the initial steps of detonation in (AFAIK) both fission and fusion bombs.

[vmaxer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NCs7YiFRBU

If you do, this is the best 8 minutes and 30 seconds you can spend today.

Cheers,
Russ

Thanks!!!

[mrbigbluelight]

Nice; enjoyed the video and the person speaking.

Electron vs current (hole) flow; at least that won't start an argument.

[praedet]

Thanks, that was great!

[cnh]

An interesting presentation...yet for those of us who do not yet properly understand SS transistor based devices it would be nice to compare how they work as opposed to the tube (anode/cathode device)? I'm fairly ignorant of EE applications....so when someone says that this is the most efficient way to switch large amounts of current--I have no problem. The only question I have is why? And what are the limitations of transistors--physically.

It's just a matter of being dense when it comes to Electronics. I've studied pure sciences but know very little about 'applications' in an Engineering sense.

cnh

[Fongolio]

Valves explained in a clear and easily understood way. Very cool.

[dcmeigs]

If you want to go a little deeper, all the way actually, purchase and read a copy of Morgan Jones "Vacuum Tube Amplifiers". I would say that this book is the bible for vacuum tube audio amplifier design. It contains just about every aspect of the subject without a single differential calculus formula. Not an easy read but very enlightening.

[janmike]

Thanks Russ.

[disneyjoe7]

Very nicely done.

[heiney9]

Modern transistors are the most linear devices.

IF they are in the proper design. Many times inexpensive tube gear is more linear than inexpensive transistor gear.........many times.

H9

[FTGV]

Modern transistors are the most linear devices (doesn't mean they don't color the sound too) available economically. Yep it is fairly easy to get near textbook measurements in the areas of THD,IMD, S/N and frequency response from inexpensive SS gear.In comparison I bet many of the popular and inexpensive Asian sourced tube amps would measure poorly in key areas.But as we know sound quality is a whole different matter and does'nt necessarily correlate with the measurements.:biggrin:

[hearingimpared]

Yep it is fairly easy to get near textbook measurements in the areas of THD,IMD, S/N and frequency response from inexpensive SS gear.In comparison I bet many of the popular and inexpensive Asian sourced tube amps would measure poorly in key areas.But as we know sound quality is a whole different matter and does'nt necessarily correlate with the measurements.:biggrin:

No truer words were ever spoken Freddie!!!!

Merry Christmas bother!

[mhardy6647]

Yep it is fairly easy to get near textbook measurements in the areas of THD,IMD, S/N and frequency response from inexpensive SS gear(*).In comparison I bet many of the popular and inexpensive Asian sourced tube amps would measure poorly in key areas.But as we know sound quality is a whole different matter and does'nt necessarily correlate with the measurements.:biggrin:

* Through the use of massive amounts of negative feedback and other tricks to work around the inherent nonlinear properties of semiconductors... That's why the measurements sometimes don't correlate with aural satisfaction.

[Lasareath]

Thanks Russ for the link, I was failing a sleep a little but it was intresting.

[FTGV]

* Through the use of massive amounts of negative feedback and other tricks to work around the inherent nonlinear properties of semiconductors... That's why the measurements sometimes don't correlate with aural satisfaction.Good point, certain amounts of NF (not always massive)are needed but the result does not always equal sonic disaster.If you are looking at the individual decive itself the tube may be more linear but in a complete circuit sense the tube amp with sub par output transformers may cause more issues than NF?

[mhardy6647]

Absolutely right, and it's not that many vacuum tube amps don't use NFB, and it's not that some very fine ss designers know what they are doing and exploit the judicious use of NFB to an excellent end - it's just the latter-day dogma that transistors (as amplification devices) offer any superiority to vacuum tubes (except for size, cost, and efficiency in terms of having no filament to heat) that gets me going.

[megasat16]

IF they are in the proper design. Many times inexpensive tube gear is more linear than inexpensive transistor gear.........many times.

H9

I don't know you now prefer to compare the poorly made Chinese SS gears and the poorly made Chinese Tube gears. There must be a difference you can hear? :biggrin: J/K

Do you use Emotiva as your reference in the ABX tests? I got to try one anyday now.


Yep it is fairly easy to get near textbook measurements in the areas of THD,IMD, S/N and frequency response from inexpensive SS gear.In comparison I bet many of the popular and inexpensive Asian sourced tube amps would measure poorly in key areas.But as we know sound quality is a whole different matter and does'nt necessarily correlate with the measurements.:biggrin:

I wholeheartedly concur. :tongue:


* Through the use of massive amounts of negative feedback and other tricks to work around the inherent nonlinear properties of semiconductors... That's why the measurements sometimes don't correlate with aural satisfaction.

I concur that too. :biggrin:

[smglbrth]

Thanks Russ, great info!

[cnh]

If you want to go a little deeper, all the way actually, purchase and read a copy of Morgan Jones "Vacuum Tube Amplifiers". I would say that this book is the bible for vacuum tube audio amplifier design. It contains just about every aspect of the subject without a single differential calculus formula. Not an easy read but very enlightening.


Absolutely right, and it's not that many vacuum tube amps don't use NFB, and it's not that some very fine ss designers know what they are doing and exploit the judicious use of NFB to an excellent end - it's just the latter-day dogma that transistors (as amplification devices) offer any superiority to vacuum tubes (except for size, cost, and efficiency in terms of having no filament to heat) that gets me going.


* Through the use of massive amounts of negative feedback and other tricks to work around the inherent nonlinear properties of semiconductors... That's why the measurements sometimes don't correlate with aural satisfaction.

OK, all of this helps to clarify a few things that were missing for me, as well as a few other comments above.

Thanks!

cnh

[FTGV]

Merry Christmas bother!Thanks and same to you Joe.


Absolutely right, and it's not that many vacuum tube amps don't use NFB, and it's not that some very fine ss designers know what they are doing and exploit the judicious use of NFB to an excellent end - it's just the latter-day dogma that transistors (as amplification devices) offer any superiority to vacuum tubes (except for size, cost, and efficiency in terms of having no filament to heat) that gets me going.Be it SS or tube each device needs some massaging to work around it's limitations,but ofcourse in the hands of a skilled designer both can be made to sound very good.I personally prefer a neutral detailed presentaion thus I lean more towards the SS side as it seems to be more readily available in that state.

[heiney9]

I personally prefer a neutral detailed presentaion thus I lean more towards the SS side as it seems to be more readily available in that state.

I do too Fred, but I have to say it took me a long time to actually give tube gear a chance and I'll be damned if that's not exactly the presentation I get, except the music has more life............or what I like to call "soul" :smile:

Sort of like a photo vs. real life.

Everyone enjoy what you like, like what you enjoy.

Merry Christmas

H9

[hearingimpared]

I do too Fred, but I have to say it took me a long time to actually give tube gear a chance and I'll be damned if that's not exactly the presentation I get, except the music has more life............or what I like to call "soul" :smile:

Sort of like a photo vs. real life.

Everyone enjoy what you like, like what you enjoy.

Merry Christmas

H9

Brock that would be the exact way inwhich I would describe what I've found in the combination of tubes & SS.

Merry Christmas Brother.

[mrbigbluelight]

mhardy had posted this link

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeaker...v-PP-Part1.pdf

in another thread recently (SS vs Tubes).

Found it pretty interesting, little primer on SE and PP tubes, biasing, etc.
Nice read and the author also has a sense of humor (like his views on the different camps of tubers).

[heiney9]

mhardy had posted this link

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeaker...v-PP-Part1.pdf

in another thread recently (SS vs Tubes).

Found it pretty interesting, little primer on SE and PP tubes, biasing, etc.
Nice read and the author also has a sense of humor (like his views on the different camps of tubers).

Linky no worky

H9

[mrbigbluelight]

Let me try that again:

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/vaughn/downloads/SE-v-PP-Part1.pdf

Okay, that one works, thanks for the heads up, H9.

[heiney9]

Let me try that again:

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/vaughn/downloads/SE-v-PP-Part1.pdf

Okay, that one works, thanks for the heads up, H9.

Works now, I missed Mhardy's post. I have both a P/P and SE tube amp so I'll certainly read it.

Thanks

H9

[heiney9]

That was a damn interesting read as I have P/P with grid bias and SE with cathode bias and it does a great job of explaining the characteristics of both. I like both my tube integrated's for different reasons and constantly swap them in and out every few weeks or so.

Added to my list of favorites

H9