Vienna Acoustic Hadyn Grand amp recommendation

[leadfoot1]

2ch setup for my bedroom... Just bought a pair of VA Hadyn Grands from Best Buy and it seems like my Rotel 1075 is "straining" a bit to power them. Would the Rotel 1080 be a better match? Maybe Parasound 2250? BTW the reason I am using the 1075 to power a pair of speakers is because I don't run seperates anymore and I figured I would use it rather than it sitting in a box.
Using an old Pioneer Elite receiver as a pre if that makes any difference.

[F1nut]

Your speakers are 4 ohm nominal and your amp does not appear to be rated to drive 4 ohm speakers. Time to go shopping.

Something like this will drive them all day long and sound way better than using your AVR as a pre.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1305401429&/Musical-Fidelity-A-3.5-dual-mo

[Erik Tracy]

Your speakers are 4 ohm nominal and your amp does not appear to be rated to drive 4 ohm speakers. Time to go shopping.

Something like this will drive them all day long and sound way better than using your AVR as a pre.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1305401429&/Musical-Fidelity-A-3.5-dual-mo

+1 and then some - listen to this wise advice.

Too late - already gone....no surprise there.

[leroyjr1]

+1 and then some - listen to this wise advice.

Somebody did because it's sold.

[tonyb]

Man, love the MF gear, sounds good and looks good doing it.
Good choice Jess threw at ya, a step up from the Rotel imho.

[leroyjr1]

How does this newer m3i stack up against the A3.5 or A5?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1305334472&/Musical-Fidelity-M3i---Excelle

[mdaudioguy]

According to the manual, the RMB-1075 is rated at 4 ohms minimum, however, this might be a case of a specification not telling the whole story. Interesting that there's nothing on specific output at 4 ohms. http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rmb1075_multi.pdf

I've run mine with one of these: http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=105

The Haydns are some of the nicest bookshelves I've ever listened to.

[F1nut]

however, this might be a case of a specification not telling the whole story.

That's exactly what it is.

[shack]

The Rotel RMB-1075 should work just fine. The Haydns are not that power hungry and the Rotel is a decent amp. I have always found Rotel to be conservative with their power ratings. The Haydns are sensitive to placement...so maybe that is an issue. Here are the specs from Rotel's site:

http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=3&Tab=2&Pic=1

[leadfoot1]

Sounds like maybe I should have held onto my Anthem AVM30 and used it as a pre instead of the Pioneer :(

[F1nut]

Here are the specs from Rotel's site:

Right and it shows that the amp is not rated for 4 ohms RMS.

DIN Power Output
(1 kHz, 1%) 5x200 watts /ch / 4 ohms

[leroyjr1]

I had the rmb-1075 running my 4 ohm LSI's no problem.

[shack]

Right and it shows that the amp is not rated for 4 ohms RMS.

DIN Power Output
(1 kHz, 1%) 5x200 watts /ch / 4 ohms

Which does not mean it is not adequate...nor does it mean it is not 4 ohm capable.. DIN is often used for European specs and it is a different method to measure power than RMS. In this case it is still a 4 ohm measurment.

[mdaudioguy]

Right and it shows that the amp is not rated for 4 ohms RMS.

DIN Power Output
(1 kHz, 1%) 5x200 watts /ch / 4 ohms
This confuses me Jesse. What is DIN vs. RMS? Are they fudging these specs, because the 8 ohm rating is for full range, while the 4 ohm rating is only at 1 kHz, with presumably much higher distortion? Even the back of the amp states "4 OHMS MINIMUM."

Even if it's not the best 4 ohm solution out there, I'd think it would be adequate, given that he's using just 2 of 5 channels...

http://www.laaudiofile.com/images/rmb1075b.jpg

[leadfoot1]

I was running LSI7's with the 1075 before I got the VA's and it drove them no problem. Guessing the VA's are just harder to drive? Never thought about getting an intergrated before but will have to look into them now. I missed out on the one in the link that F1nut posted.

[F1nut]

This confuses me Jesse. What is DIN vs. RMS? Are they fudging these specs, because the 8 ohm rating is for full range, while the 4 ohm rating is only at 1 kHz, with presumably much higher distortion? Even the back of the amp states "4 OHMS MINIMUM."

Yeah, they are fudging things.


The DIN 45000 defines different methods to measure power, depending on the device under test.
Power measurement of an amplifier requires that it is properly terminated by Ohmic resistances of nominal value both at input and output. The continuous power is measured when the amplifier is supplied by its normal power supply. It must then be able to deliver the rated power at 1 kHz for at least 10 minutes while the maximum THD does not exceed 1 %. To measure the peak power the normal power supply is replaced by a regulated power supply and the time for delivering the power is reduced. Thus, higher values for peak power are obtained.


The most important standard for audio power is watts RMS, or Root Mean Square (often it is not capitalized), and across the entire spectrum, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, into a speaker load of 8 Ohms. When manufacturer specs deviate from this, it means the marketing department is trying to make the power spec look bigger. This includes stating the spec at 1 kHz and with only some of the channels being driven rather than all of them at the same time.

[danz1906]

An Odyssey Khartago will drive those speakers no problem,and sound good
while doing it.

http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-khartago-stereo.html

[shack]

Yeah, they are fudging things.

Not necessarily. If they were doing that they would not publish the RMS figures along side the DIN


Understanding amplifier power ratings

There are different methods for measuring the power ratings for amplifiers and speakers. And different measuring methids give different values so it is vital to understand the difference between the different power ratings to be able to make at least some comaparision between different power ratings.

RMS power

To make it short, an RMS power value is directly related to perceivable energy (acoustical, heat, light - or what else applies).

"RMS" is really a rather meaningless figure, when measuring power. R.M.S. is useful for measuring the "power-producing equivalent" voltage. Thus 10 Volts RMS will produce the same power into a given impedance that 10 Volts DC would produce (onto a resistance) Any waveform of 10 V R.M.S.will produce the same power into that impedance. This is because it's the root of the mean of all the average squared voltages to which Norbert Hahn referred in the prior post. It is if little meaning to compute the mean of squares of all the power values in a wave.

RMS, when applied to power measurements, has come to mean "sine-wave power." A 100 Watt "RMS" amplifier can produce a 100 Watt sine-wave into its load. With music, the total actual power would be less. With a square-wave, it would be more.

DIN power

The DIN 45000 defines different methods to measure power, depending on the device under test. Well, this is what I remember from reading the DIN some 25 years ago.

For home applicances there are three different numbers for power: Continous power, Peak power and power bandwidth; the latter does not apply for speakers.

Power measurement of an amp requires that the amp is properly terminated by Ohmic resistances of nominal value both at input and output. The continous power is measured when the amp is supplied by its normal power supply. It must then be able to deliver the rated power at 1 kHz for at least 10 minutes while the maximum THD does not exceed 1 %. To measure the peak power the normal power supply is replaced by a regulated power supply and the time for delivering the power is reduced. Thus, higher values for peak power are obtained. You may skip measuring the peak power by simply multiplying the continuous power by 1.1.

The power bandwidth is defined as the bw for which 1/2 of the rated continous power can be obtained.

Actually, DIN 45 500, CNF 97-330, EIA RS-426 and the encompassing IEC 268-5 specify not pink noise, but pink noise filtered by a filter that provides sinificant attenuation in the low and high frequency region of the spectrum to more closely model the long-term spectral distribution of music. Pink noise itself does not accomplish this

PMPO (Peak Music Power)

So called "music power". This power figure tells the power which the amplifier can maximally supply in some conditions. PMPO rating gives the highest measuring value, but this info is quite useless, because there is no exact standard how PMPO power should be measured.

The reason for this power rating was to show the max capability of equippment for recreating strong musical tansients like kettle drums and the like. Similar thing (music power rating) was used in the sixties, and I think it assumed a square wave that swung the whole supply range of the output stage. This alone gives them a factor of two over a clean sine wave note. But the ugliest thing they did was to assume that the high power lasted such a short period of time that the power supply caps would hold the voltages steady without any drooping. In the real world, an under powered PS could be hidden by this ruse and the PMPO might be a factor of 10 or more higher than what could be sustained on a nice instrumental performance.

Forget what adverts say about peak power or other "power terms" because they are not standardized and anyway comparable between equipments. Just look for "RMS continuous Power" or other reliable power rating (like DIN power).

[leroyjr1]

An Odyssey Khartago will drive those speakers no problem,and sound good
while doing it.

http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-khartago-stereo.html


They even got different color faceplates.:smile:

[danz1906]

They even got different color faceplates.:smile:

I forgot about That!:smile::smile::smile:

[mdaudioguy]

Yeah, they are fudging things.


Not necessarily. If they were doing that they would not publish the RMS figures along side the DIN

Ha! I read up on some of the same stuff after my last post. So, guess we can change the famous quote about statistics to reference audio specifications - "Lies, damn lies, and audio specifications." I guess the only numbers that can ever be trusted are the results of properly conducted evaluations by independent third parties... Not always easy to find. I guess this unit is technically 4 ohm capable, just not up to everyone's standards.

In any case, I'm learning that it's not so much the numbers that determine whether or not I like the gear... Gotta try it to decide. Swap amps, swap pres, try an integrated, and see what you think. Besides, the Rotel was designed for multi-channel HT.

[F1nut]

The problem with DIN ratings as I see it is that they are not truly repersentative of the actual unit.


To measure the peak power the normal power supply is replaced by a regulated power supply and the time for delivering the power is reduced.

The other issue I see here is that Rotel does not give an actual rating at 4 ohms, such as 100 wpc @ 8 ohms and 200 wpc @ 4 ohms. They are fudging for sure.

[skrol]

In the short time I had Haydn Grands, I found them to be very laid back. At low volumes, my DRA-835R (4 ohm rated but not the best choice) seemed to be straining and the sound was rather anemic. Turn it up a bit and the Haydn's sprang to life and would fill the room with their warm rich sound. Trouble was that it was then too loud for conversations. I assume that this is mainly due to my amplification.

The Haydn's are very nice and I wanted them to work out but they just didn't fit my application. Probably not fair to compare but my RTA's effortlessly produce full bodied sound even at low volumes with the drawback being size.
Stan

[leadfoot1]

That's the issue I am having with them. If I turn them up they sound great but then it is louder then I want. I think I am going to switch out the Rotel with the Krell I am using in the HT rig and see what happens.

[tonyb]

That's the issue I am having with them. If I turn them up they sound great but then it is louder then I want. I think I am going to switch out the Rotel with the Krell I am using in the HT rig and see what happens.

Good idea, to throw some juice at them. Maybe consider also the old pioneer receiver may not be putting out the line voltage to drive the amp to full power. Worth a look into anyway.

[leadfoot1]

Yeah I am already looking (shopping) for a replacement for the Pioneer. So many choices out there.

I assume it would be OK to use an older pre/pro?? I would just use it for 2ch so it wouldn't matter that it only decodes DD/DTS.

[leadfoot1]

Well I swapped the Rotel with my Krell KAV250a and it still seems to not "come alive" unless I turn it up higher then I would like to listen to in the bedroom. I guess my next step is a dedicated pre? Are there any made that have tuners built in?

[danz1906]

Check out some Integrated Amps:

[leadfoot1]

What benefit will that get me over seperates?

[danz1906]

What benefit will that get me over seperates?

An Integrated may have the Tuner that you want,also you save a little cash
on not having to buy another set of i.c.

[shack]

Well I swapped the Rotel with my Krell KAV250a and it still seems to not "come alive" unless I turn it up higher then I would like to listen to in the bedroom. I guess my next step is a dedicated pre? Are there any made that have tuners built in?

I don't believe a pre-amp will make a difference. The Rotel or the Krell should be more than adequate to drive these speakers (which I am very familiar with). Room location and placement is critical. They are also a very mellow/smooth/laid back speaker for the most part and driving them to higher limits may change that. Maybe it is their overall sonic characteristic that you don't like. I have discovered that Vienna Acoustics is is either a sound you like or you don't. Very much like B&W or Klipsch...some love them...some don't.

[leadfoot1]

Room placement may be it. I have them on either side of the TV and that is the only place I can put them due to WAF. Don't get me wrong they sound good, just not like I thought they would. Hard to explain.

[leadfoot1]

On the bright side. Moving the Rotel to my B&W 704's made we realize I like the Rotel better sound wise than the Krell. :biggrin:

[amulford]

An Integrated may have the Tuner that you want,also you save a little cash
on not having to buy another set of i.c.

No, that would be a receiver. An integrated will save you the trouble of choosing a matching preamp. You'll still need a tuner and other source components. You might, and I mean might, save a set of IC's.

This one looks nice (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1305952144&/Consonance-Reference-150)

[Erik Tracy]

I don't believe a pre-amp will make a difference. The Rotel or the Krell should be more than adequate to drive these speakers (which I am very familiar with). Room location and placement is critical. They are also a very mellow/smooth/laid back speaker for the most part and driving them to higher limits may change that. Maybe it is their overall sonic characteristic that you don't like. I have discovered that Vienna Acoustics is is either a sound you like or you don't. Very much like B&W or Klipsch...some love them...some don't.

I agree with Shack.

If your overall listening habits are more low to mid-volume, and given your placement and how the VAs have been described sonically - you may have to reconsider your speaker choice.

It's not like a marriage.....if these aren't the speakers for you....move on.:tongue:

[leadfoot1]

I agree with Shack.

If your overall listening habits are more low to mid-volume, and given your placement and how the VAs have been described sonically - you may have to reconsider your speaker choice.

It's not like a marriage.....if these aren't the speakers for you....move on.:tongue:

Yeah, I have a new respect for the LSi7's now. With that said I am keeping the Viennas and will deal with them. My better half doesn't care about any of this. She just wants music while she gets ready for work and whatnot. When I listen to the bedroom system I am usually alone so I will just crank it if I want.

[skrol]

I agree with Shack.

If your overall listening habits are more low to mid-volume, and given your placement and how the VAs have been described sonically - you may have to reconsider your speaker choice.

It's not like a marriage.....if these aren't the speakers for you....move on.:tongue:

That is exactly what I did. I had high hopes for the VA's as my wife wants me to get rid of the RTA's so we can get more book cases. I was having difficulties with the sound character, my wife wasn't thrilled with me spending $500 (fabulous price) for the VA's and I knew it would take more upgrades to get them sounding right. I took them back and I get to keep the RTA's a while longer.

The down side is that book cases have come up again recently and I don't know what I could replace the RTA's with that would sound good, fit in the book case and cost under $500. Sigh...I could be looking at a Bose Wave radio:frown:.

[F1nut]

Hey, what do you know, here's another and look at what he was driving with it.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1306017327&/Musical-Fidelity-A-3.5-Integra