Musical genius?

[Strong Bad]

What really is a musical genius and who do you consider to be one?

I hear and read all the time how the Beatles were geniuses and how Curt Cobain was just flat out brilliant.

Sorry, in my opinion, these people put out some good music in their time, but I really don't think they're the music equivalent of Einstein.

Nirvana's first album hit big, but their second album had one hit, and even that wasn't huge.

Look at groups like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and the Eagles. Look at all they did for the music world. I really never hear them mentioned in these discussions.

Opinions guys?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I say Dream Theater, they all are some of the best in the world. You can be the best 'mainstream' artist and be one of the worst artist in the world. I think talent has to actually kick in somewhere...

[wlrandall]

Aerosmith.

[danger boy]

I think what we would consider a musical genius would have to be like you said The Beatles, probably others like Mozart, Frank Sinatra, Simon and Garfunkel, Berry Gordy, Elton John/Bernie Taupin, Aretha Franklin, Barbra Striesand, Michael Jackson, Madonna, and a few others.

I guess these are the people who helped shape the history of music, and I would consider them to be musical genisus in my book. Oh yeah and of course Ann and Nancy Wilson of Heart. :p they are my fave band of all time. :D

[rskarvan]

I think you have to look to the theatre to find some modern-day musical genious. Perhpas the musical score to RENT comes to mind. Most popular music is simplistic and non-consequential - from a musical perspective. There was a reason that Orchestra's have scores where no part is duplicated for 60 people or so. You just can't do that with a four-man band.

[dorokusai]

Zamphir, Master of the Pan Flute ;)

[Airplay355]

backstreet boys

[rs159]

fiddy cent...........:rolleyes:

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

JUSTIN TIMBERLAKE AND BRITNEY SPEARS!!!! :rolleyes:

[pjdami]

Johann Sebastian Bach. Although I am not a huge classical music fan, Bach has been described as "mathmatical". Bach is definitely not "boring" church music.

SVS owners if you have some Bach on cd try out "Toccata & Fugue in d minor" for some thunderous bass from the pipe organ, argueably one of the most complex instruments man has ever created. With pipes as tall as or taller than 32 feet in some instances the pipe organ is capable of producing a wide range of the music spectrum. My Polk PSW 350 just farts to this song as most of the bass is lower than 32 hz. Let me know if you try it.

Rock and Roll wise, genius would be Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin to me. Revolutionary music for the times. I guess you can throw in Jimmi Hendrix in there too. Pink Floyd, I still listen to it and don't get tired of it. How did they think of all that stuff still amazes me. Led Zeppelin, what else is there to say. From rock to blues and in between.. what a variety. I was jammin to Zep 1 today. "your time is gonna come" John Paul Jones is jamming on the pipe organ in the beginning then fades into Jimmy Page.. I love it and still do.

[GuitarheadCA]

I don't even have to think about this one:

Danny Elfman

This guy was the lead singer in Oingo Boingo- but that's not why he's a genious. He's a genious because he's the best there is at writing movie scores. Batman, Dick Tracy, Beetlejuice, Mission Impossible, Tales from the cyrpt, Edward Scissorhands, Men in Black, The Simpsons, Mars attacks- just to name some of the big ones. The way he makes instrument lines come together, create a mood, tell a story is amazing.

[LiquidSound]

How about a Real Genius..

[Zero]

John.

You present here a question which commands a philisophical approach. Bait which is impossibly difficult for me to discard. I will put fowarth all my effort into keeping this response short, simple, and straight-foward.

Genius is a term that seem's to be thrown around rather carelessly, often time's giving a false perception of the capability of the individual being discussed.

I believe that the field of music harbors more bloated and over-praised individuals than any other in the entertainment industry.

Strong natural talents and creative powers seem to be more of the criteria necessary for an artist to be considered qualified enough or fitting for the title of; musical genius.

Frankly put, I am hesitant to lay this title upon any one artist. A musical genius is in my eyes, one who possess incredible talents. Whether its someone or someones in the mainstream..or a man on the porch that can play virtually any instrument you throw at him...with absolute ellegance.

Many of the artists listed above, I would rather classify as Pioneer's, or Revolutionist's. Such a title is more appropriate.

This question, like many other things in music, is founded upon the basis of an opinion. Those who capture your soul and captivate your mind can very well be, your own musical geniuses.

Regards,

Sean

[dorokusai]

Guitarhead - I never even knew that about Danny Elfman...the Oingo Boingo connection, holy crap :eek:

[Loud & Clear]

Originally posted by ATCVenom
This question, like many other things in music, is founded upon the basis of an opinion. Those who capture your soul and captivate your mind can very well be, your own musical geniuses.

Regards,

Sean

Sums it up for me.

We have biorhythms and complicated emotional networks ... some things strike a cord, others don't. But perhaps that has more to do with what is perceived as 'subjectivity.' Then again, is there any way to determine 'musical genius' objectively? Is it mathematical, calculable based on the number of notes that you hit per second, or in some specific order?

On a side note: Jesus is tapping your phone calls, and Buddha is reading your diaries; let's not forget that people. And who knows how many countless spirits (grandparents anyone?!) view your wild masturbation sessions (yup, I'm talking about the wine cork, and don't think you're fooling me by denying it ... you sick bastards). Keep your wits about you, they're ALWAYS watching.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Dangit Sean....

Your to dang smart!!!!!! STOP IT!!! lol! Nicely said man! Nicely said!

[danger boy]

we all have our own musical geniuses, but we can all agree Jimi Hendrix was a genius in his own right as a musician. He did captivate the industry and the public... as did the Beatles. They forever changed the face of music. Elvis was also a musical genius. What would the world have been like had we not had Elvis or Lennon and McCartney?

To say someone who captivates you with music "could" be a genius is wrong.

As I said before... The Beatles yeah geniuses, as was Elvis, The Rolling Stones, Buddy Holly.. etc.. on and on.

Not geniuses, Milli Vanilli, Vanilla Ice, Britney Spears, Rick Dees, and most rap music :p


rskarvan, I loved Rent. the music, the show.. the whole experience. as far as being placed in the genius category.. ummm no. There are other broadway musicals who would better fit into the category of genius.

guitarhead,
Danny Elfman. rocks. genius... yeah maybe.

that's it. i said my piece.. right or wrong.. that's how I feel about musical geniuses.

Al

[Zero]

Dangerboy,

Such statements lead me to assume that you feel every individual who has had an opportunity to become familiar with Jimi Hendrix will outright consider his performances and music to be trademarks of a genius. I feel such a broad statement bears little weight and is inheriently inaccurate - I for one consider him to be a spot-light pioneer, not a genius.

Often times, musicians, such as the likes of those mentioned are given acclaim, being hailed as the founder for a specific genre or style of music. Truth be told, none of the artists mentioned created the style, it was adopted from another source.

It is at this point when the common trials of the musical industry in and of itself contribute largely to the introduction of a certain artist or style of music. Often time's, it is simple timing. Is the populous ready for change, for a new icon, does the music represent or influence the culture. If Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon was released for the first time in todays culture, would it yeild the same renoun impact and respect it obviously carries as we know now?

So what is the criteria for a musical genious? Your emphasis appears to focus primarily on what you construe as originallity and impact on a large scale. That being said, Dr.Dre and Snoop Dogg can be considered musical geniuses in their own right for their large influence on rap and hip-hop.

The question becomes, are they musical geniuses, pioneers, both?

Music is an artform. And like in visual art, one's perception of what art truelly is varries between individual to individual. Some may share the same idea's, some may not. The sculptures and painting's which are considered priceless and genius to some, may be no more significant than the drawings on a box of cereal.

Like in art, there is no unified method of determining what a genius is composed of. All is subjective.

To bring this down a few notches, a good example would be in presenting a beautiful girl before every man which inhabits his planet. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to find a woman to where every single male on this planet would agree upon in terms of beauty. Thus making this less of a mathematical evaluation, and more, personal.

[bikezappa]

Frank Zappa

Not many people ever listened to him, but everyone thinks they know what type of music he played.

He played music that he liked.

He tried to stop the music rating system.

Only time will tell where is ends up in history however.

Sleep Dirt.

[Loud & Clear]

Some people consider Jimmy Hendrix to have been a sloppy blues guitarist (myself included), who was always whacked out on psychedelics. Others consider him a musical genius. Go figure.

[RuSsMaN]

I consider Hendrix a left handed black guy, that played a right handed guitar - upsidedown.

Zappa, well he did finally get the mercy fuck and was inducted into the R&R hall of fame on what, the third time? ;)

Cheers,
Russ

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by Loud & Clear
....your wild masturbation sessions (yup, I'm talking about the wine cork)...

Wait a minute - I want in. Doesn't anyone else care about the "wine cork" wank off technique? Do tell L&C, do tell.

Hans Zimmer gets my vote for modern day composing genius.

Pick any top 10 famous classical composer for my historical vote.

And I'm with john strong on Pink Floyd DSOTM - brilliant.

Doc

[GuitarheadCA]

I consider Hendrix a left handed black guy, that played a right handed guitar - upsidedown
Yeah, I'm with Russman on this one- never been a big Hendrix fan. So if I have no clue to play an instrument, pick it up wrong, learn it wrong, but make it sound okay- can I be original and great too?

Sean,
After the two philisophical posts on music genious, I'm still curious to know who you would believe to qualify as such. Do tell.

[Zero]

Guitarhead,

I have avoided answering the post directly on puprpose. Fact of the matter is, my mind remains relatively void of any particular name.

If I had to choose, it would be the composers of old. I play the piano/keyboard and am simply amazed with the talent and creativity of these musicians. The emotion and mental state captured in their songs almost takes on an art form all to itself.

[Big Dan R]

Don't confuse record sales and popularity with musical genius. Most of the time they are not synonoymous. There are many performers that are better at business than music. ;)
Dan

[danger boy]

ok. lets take it out of music then. how about Bill Gates? Is Bill not a genius? Did he invent the computer? nope. Did he invent the operating system? nope. He did with much help create the computer operating system that most of the free world uses today and for the past 15 yrs.

Sean, i can't believe you would throw out a ? then not answer it yourself? what gives? Are you chicken or something? Baak Baak Baak! :p

I stand by my statements that they are real geniuses in the music industry. Whether they be the musicains or writers, or the promoters. How about the Funk Brothers?, they had more number one hits then Elvis, the Beatles combined.

I'll be back later.


al

[Loud & Clear]

Bill Gates is a musical genius. Open up the 'media' folder under your 'windows' folder, it's all in there, and it's beautiful.

Doc - it involves vaseline and one of those 'sit and spins' that you may have around from your younger years. Key here is, you mustn't be of the opinion that deceased relatives can pop in on you at their whim; that will cause hysterical laughter and derail the intended result. Happy trails, and let me know it works out for you.

L&C

[jdavy]

geniuses of the last 1000 years were people that could do what few others could do. The beatles music has been compared to Bach, Mozart and Betheoven. Tast is not the issue but how the music is put together. To understand the genious of Mozart see Amadeos. BTW, I like the comments on Danny Elfman. I too am an Oingo Boingo fan. After all " I am only a lad... I really can't help it"

Hey, "you worry too much, you make yourself sad, you can't change fate, so don't feel so bad, enjoy it while you can, it's just like the weather so quite complaning brother, no one lives for ever.... Let's have a party there's a full moon in the sky. It is the hour of the wolf and I don't want to die"

[TroyD]

I don't know about musical genius but sounds to me like ATC is banging a librarian or some shit.

BDT

[organ]

doro,
ROTFLMAO!!:D:D I found a Zamfir album at home. Not sure who owned it but it's funny. Did you see the episode of King of the Hill where Hank found a Zamfir record? When I saw that I was laughing my ass off, I though I was the only one who made the discovery:D.

Musical geniuses for me are:
Dani Filth(Cradle of filth)
Abbath, Horgh, Iscariah (Immortal)
Tarja Turunen, Tuomas Holopainen (Nighwish)
Maria Callas

Those are the only ones I can think of right now.

Maurice

[dylan]

Stevie Ray Vaughan. Why? Easy: he could sing, write his own music, and play unlike any other I've heard. His music entertains me every time I listen to it.
And it's great drinking music (listened to his CD's all through Labor Day Weekend). Hearing the opening of 'Scuttle Buttin' or 'Lenny' just makes me grab a beer.

[danger boy]

Dylan,

good choice. SRV music is one of a kind in my book.

[F1nut]

My genius list, both groups and individuals in addition to many already mentioned.

Roxy Music
Steely Dan
King Crimson
Dire Straits
Grateful Dead
Roy Orbison
Little Feat
The Who
Eric Clapton
David Bowie
Amiee Mann

[Tour2ma]

F1,
Bowie was my first thought, at least first Rock thought. Mozart was first, but so obvious...

David Byrne is another that comes to mind.

[F1nut]

hehe...I forgot what a rabid fan of Bowie you are.

BTW, it looks like most if not all of his early stuff is coming out on SACD.

[Loud & Clear]

'F1nut' hit on some of my favorite musicians.

[Big Dan R]

Wow F1, my opinions as well...Roxy (Bryan Ferry) has been a major influence on many musicians..Ive loved Crimson since 69 and Fripp is considered by many to be a technical guitar genius.
Btw, been waiting for a Floyd album for 6 years!!
FYI, the new Steely Dan and Annie Lennox cd's are some of the very best recorded sound out there.
BDR

[danger boy]

Originally posted by Big Dan R

FYI, the new Steely Dan and Annie Lennox cd's are some of the very best recorded sound out there.
BDR


True dat... Annie Lennox's Bare has some great low end.. more than you usually hear on a redbook CD. :D

Actually, any Annie Lennox music is great. she is my genius.

[bikezappa]

Musical Genius

Well this may not be that simple. I'll try to tell the story and I'm sure I'll screw it up. Here it goes.

Poeple define some one who is brilliant by saying: What a great idea. I wish I could have thought of that.

People define some one who is a genius by saying: What a great idea, I never would have thought of that in a 1,000,000 years.

I still vote for Zappa. And who cares about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Zappa was not a rock and roll musician, duh. People like to put poeple in boxes. Makes things nice and neat, but that box maybe not be very accurate. Zappa composed and played tunes for opera, symphony, jazz, musicals, country, movie sound tracks and just about everything else including rock and roll. He even played with the singers from Tuva and made movies. The first commercial movie with a video camera, 200 Motels. But no love songs however. Maybe love songs would get him some votes. And he didn't give a shit if you didn't like any of his tunes. He just seemed to appeal to all the ugly MF ers out there.

Just my $0.02.

Great site.

[Big Dan R]

Bike you are correct sir! Zappa really was a genius in many ways. His humor and technical ability is unmatched. As Im sure you know he was considered vulgar by many, but listen to most rap crap and it makes Frank seem tame.

BDR

[Loud & Clear]

Zappa, a technical genius? I assume this isn't related to his guitar work. I find him fabulously entertaining, and he and his mates put together some incredible pieces when they were of a mind to do so, but excellent guitar work wasn't his specialty; he had no real feel for melody.

Playing fast doesn't mean much to me; John McLaughlin can play fast, but like Zappa, it just puts me to sleep ... no emotion, no content.

You want to hear great guitarists? Look no further than Paco De Lucia, who is arguably the finest guitar player of all-time. His sense of melody (read: music) is spectacular, mind-blowing.

Al Di Meola plays a beautiful guitar, wonderful articulation.

SRV could actually play 'Little Wing' without fucking up.

And then of course there's CC Deville, Poison's exquisite master of the horizontal harp ... Christ, just thinking of his work makes me weep like a child, a female child.

[bikezappa]

Big Dan

How are those new speakers?

Loud and Clear

What Paco CD would you recommend? I'd like to listen to this guy.

[Loud & Clear]

bikezappa - The album "Luzia" would be a nice addition to any guitar enthusiast's collection; Paco's complete mastery of the instrument is humbling.

Paco has been there and done that, hell, he even put forth the solo work on Bryan Adams' 'Have you Ever Really Loved A Woman.' The song is pretty syrupy, ultra-tender, etc., but you'd best be sure that when I heard that guitar work, I stood up and took notice. Great melody makers can't hide.

I'm too tired to find every review of available, but here's one from Amazon for the 'Luzia' album; obviously there are many more.

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
Though he's recognized as flamenco's premier guitarist--with few contenders save for Tomatito, Pepe Habichuela, and Manolo Sanlúcar--Paco de Lucía has met with decades of controversy for his hybridization of the form with bossa, salsa, and jazz; for influencing flamenco-rock renegades like Ketama and Pata Negra; and for his legendary, cultivated arrogance. Albums like Luzia, named for his late mother, restore the balance: true flamenco puro of the highest order, it's a brooding reinvention from within, particularly in its complex harmonies and polyrhythms, forged around time-honored forms like bulerías and alegrías. The bustling bulería "El Chorruelo" is simply blood-boiling, a surging virtuosity at work over rapid key shifts and melodic firestorms. Written for his late collaborator--bad-boy singer Camarón de la Isla--the closing solo "Camarón" is meditative, joyous, forlorn, incensed, and sublime; in short, the real deal. A startlingly good set from a true master. --James Rotondi

[bikezappa]

Thanks Loud and Clear, I'll check out the CD and get back to you. Always want to hear good tunes and expand my limited horizons.