Another thought...Sub's yes here.

[mantis]

Sub's

How many of you use em in your 2 channel rig?Even the big boys with the big floor speakers?

Another thing going around and round is the need for a clean low 20hz and behond sub to add to a 2 channel system.

Now thinking about this and listening with and without,I can't see even the baddest speakers not benefiting from a killer low end sub.Real.

As I hear it the sub sets the foundation for the music and the rest is up to the speakers to recreate the rest.

Dan

[organ]

I think even a 2ch system sounds better with a sub. That reminds me, I need to get some Y-adaptor for the pre. I haven't used my sub for almost 2 months.

Maurice

[madmax]

When I listen with a sub I think a sub is required. When I listen without a sub it takes awhile but then it seems as if the speakers open up somehow and a sub is not needed. I think you get used to whatever the freq curve is and then it becomes your reference.
madmax

[TroyD]

The Amazings are rated at 17hz -3db. No need for a sub here.

Having said that, it depends on your tastes. For me, give me a speaker that plays into the mid 40's and I'm perfectly happy. I personally wouldn't put a powered sub in a 2ch rig, I'd give some credence to a passive sub with a crossover ala the DQ-10/DQ1W woofer module combination.

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

In the SDA SRS 2ch rig, no sub, not needed.

In the DQ10 rig, no sub, would consider a passive DQ1 sub, or the likes of VMPS.

In the Advent Legacy rig, no sub, not needed.

In the case of the stacked Infinity QB's, no sub, not needed.

In the Norh 3.0 rig, B&W ASW500, has a nice, fixed passive high pass right at the Norh's resonant freq, and does well with music.

In both 'main' zones of the house (RT7, AR206) I use DCM 710's with on board B&K amps (8" active, 12" pr) to add a little more 'slam' factor. Not much critical listening with the whole house rig - moreso to get the ladies rumps moving.

I say go for it, if you like it - use it. From a 'purist' standpoint, they might let a passive slide, but not a powered. If you need more low end, some would say get bigger speakers.

Cheers,
Russ

[organ]

WTF? How many man caves do you have there Russ? How do those Norh sound compared to the LSi?

Maurice

[madmax]

Originally posted by organ
WTF? How many man caves do you have there Russ? How do those Norh sound compared to the LSi?

Maurice

Does a man cave have to be in the basement??
madmax

[RuSsMaN]

My house is turning into one big cave, although I do still have my own little room to go hide in. Chuck, my official 'cave' is simply the 4th bedroom in the house. 1 master, 1 office, 1 guest room, 1 cave.

Can't really compare the 3.0's with LSi. They are excellent, near-field speakers. Using a single full-range driver, they can't handle gobs of power either. Vocals and strings are simply amazing, and the imaging is incredible with such small speakers (after proper setup). The sweet spot is exactly that, a sweet SPOT - they aren't speakers to listen to while 'walking around the house'.

Now the higher end Norh's, there is really only one word, Scanspeak. You need to hear them, if you ever get a chance.

To add to the post topic, on the small(er) speakers I've bought, lets say the KEF Cresta 2's, I bought them because I liked the way they sounded. I didn't buy them with the thought of adding a sub later, and wouldn't. Does that make sense? I enjoy listening to them for what they are, and what they do.

Cheers,
Russ

[organ]

Oh, I thought you have the Norh with ring radiator tweets. I've never heard speakers with a single full range driver. I do like the looks of Norh speakers though. Very unique. A lot of people at audioreview.com owns Norh and love them.

My friend picked up the Cresta 2 about a month ago and is really diging them. He's powering them with an old H/K receiver(pro-logic). I should go to his place one day and check out the speakers.

Maurice

[F1nut]

SDA 2.3TL's hit 12Hz -3dB, no sub needed.

[RuSsMaN]

Isn't that the 'overall' rating Jes - 10db down?

Not that it matters. ;)

Actually, Im 'ok' with the ring radiator, there are other higher end from Vifa/Scanspeak that please me much, much more.

Cheers,
Russ

[F1nut]

Yes, you're right, I goofed, it's.........

Overall 12 Hz to 26kHz

-3 dB 30Hz to 20kHz

What's this Jes stuff??? You and Tour......it's Jesse. :D

[Zero]

Unfortunately I cannot hop on the band-wagon here to claim having Mains capable of sub-sonic bass. In fact, I've never owned a full ranger capable of such a feat. And, I dont own one now. For that purpose, Im going to add a sub-woofer to accompany the LSi-15's.

I feel it will be a necessity for music, and even more so for movie's.

Unfortunately, there seems to be very limited means of obtaining an affordable pre/pro that sports out's for a sub. At least, I have been unable to find one.

This means you either send a full range signal to the sub (and leave the mains at the mercy of whatever material you intended the sub to cover), or route the wire through the sub, compromising nearly all dynamics of the rig. Basically - your screwed either route you take.

[madmax]

ATC,
Look towards an Audio Control Ricter scale. It's not perfect but it does have a nice crossover fitting of a high quality audio system. It will not introduce noticeable noise to your signal but will divide up the frequencies while letting you eq the bass section while leaving the higher stuff alone. A great compromise.
madmax

[RuSsMaN]

Why on earth would you not want to send a full range signal to LSi15's? Sounds like you should have kept the 9's, if you plan on limiting them.

I've heard the 15's in some avg sized rooms, and I would consider them every bit full range for music, regardless of what the paperwork says.

Cheers,
Russ

[madmax]

On a one to one comparison with the 1.2's, they drop out WAY before the lowest notes. I have a collection of CD's that show this. Things I normally listen for are there, you just have to really listen for them because for sure, you will not feel them.
madmax

[RuSsMaN]

I read you loud and clear Chuck, perhaps it didn't read quite right, they can certainly *handle* the FR (unclipped) signal.

Cheers,
Russ

[Frank Z]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Why on earth would you not want to send a full range signal to LSi15's? Sounds like you should have kept the 9's, if you plan on limiting them.

I've heard the 15's in some avg sized rooms, and I would consider them every bit full range for music, regardless of what the paperwork says.

Cheers,
Russ

Agreed, the 15's do not need a sub for 2 channel music. I have my Preamp set up to send everything to the 15's for 2 channel listening. No need for a sub at all with 15's or any full range speaker for that matter. If you can't get adequate bass out of your 2 channel rig, well let's just say you have another reason to upgrade!:D

[Zero]

I must have been living under a rock this past year or so. I had no idea some of you shared the same exact musical tastes and bass preferences and demands. Really makes my life easier ... :rolleyes:

Madmax,

Thanks for the suggestion, will definately look into it.

Regards,

Sean

[Tour2ma]

Everyone's talking speakers, but there's the music and the power and the room to consider...

Great bass from mains, any mains requires power. Want to really hear a great church organ strut it's stuff? Got a 3000 cu ft "man cave" to fill?

It's the same as in HT, adding a sub can dig deeper, unburdon the mains' amp and fill the room, if, as pointed out above, the pre can supply the bass management.

[mantis]

As a owner of the Lsi15's they very much do need a sub for music.A good powered sub will set the foundation for your music.Without going into the 20's and lowers,in my opnion you just lose the inpact and weight of some passes.

I believe a sub is nessary unless you have true full range speakers.20hz is where it's at.

[Frank Z]

Then why did you waste your money on the 15's?!? You should have saved your money and bought the 9's instead. 15's go down to 22hz, thats plenty low enough for anyone, hell most people don't even have the ability to hear anything that low! Subs for low frequencies in a multichannel environment if you are not using full range speakers all the way around, sure. A sub to handle the the LFE signal in an HT that is not equiped with full range speakers, sure. But for anyone that has ears that function normally, no.

[Zero]

Frank,

I have, and still do hold great respect for you. Since my first days at Club Polk till now, you have remained consistant. Tonight however, I bare the burden of watching you throw out nieve and relatively baseless comment's. Comments of which I feel should be addressed accordingly.

While your response seems to have been directed at Dan, I share the same boat he is in. In fact, he bears the oar.

As difficult as this may possibly be to concieve, there is a chance that Dan chose the LSi-15's due to the fact that this was the speaker which captured his attention - the speaker he wanted in his home, and the speaker which would give him the solution he was looking for at the time. He listened to the Lsi-9's, and decided he liked the LSi-15's better for his own reasons. It is not my right, or yours, to tell him where to invest his money.

Why would you waste your money on the LSi-9's. After-all, their bass extension is not as deep, their mid-range not as clear, you will need good stands, more expense on wire... you get the picture. Do you agree? Regardless of your answer, it is irrelevant.

To claim that Dan or I have wasted our money on the 15's simply on the basis of your own critera is selfish and outright rude.

You mention the 15's going down to 22hz. Really Frank, how strong, clean, accurate, and physical is that bass? Have you measured these results in various rooms with the LSi-15's? Be honest now.

Once more, you make a comment that implies everyone *assuming you mean every single person who inhabits this planet of ours* will be satisfied with the bass re-production of the LSi-15's. Funny, many reviewer's tend to state that its ability to dig deep is the speakers downfall. The latest issue of Stereophile makes that very clear.

Perhaps I cought you on an off-day Frank. I am hoping that your comments are meerly influenced by other things, and dont represent how you truelly feel.

There are no hard feelings on this end. However, I refuse to sit back and let someone degrade something which I have busted my damn balls for, especially when the criticism is un-warrented and not deserved.

[RuSsMaN]

Jeez, someone needs a fresh tampon. :o

[organ]

madmax,
You might want to ask Russman that question. I believe he started the man cave thing:).

Maurice

[Dr. Spec]

My RT800i's are good for an honest 42 Hz in room. They cannot do complete justice to low E (about 40 Hz) on a bass guitar, and are several dB down by 38 Hz. Clearly not a full range speaker.

I play all music through my 2900 via the analog outputs, bypassing the 3803 except for the amp stage. I use the digital bass management in the 2900 which has a fixed 80 Hz xo and 12/24 hi/low filters. The 2900 has test tones and I have the PB2+ calibrated nearly flat for music. It blends seamlessly and draws no attention to itself at all for music. I have it located between the mains, which probably helps.

Even in the 40-80 Hz region, the system actually sounds better with the sub in the loop because the sub does not display the slight 50 Hz hump that the RT800i's have, which otherwise makes the mid bass sound a little "tubby" in comparison.

Of course the addition of true clean and effortless extension to below 20 Hz adds another dimension entirely to certain music. The Gladiator soundtrack for example contains a great deal of strong bass in the 25-30 Hz region.

And high passing the mains only sends the 3803 amps the easy stuff and the increase in dynamic range and power is quite evident; the 3803 is loafing at all volumes.

Finally, high passing the mains significantly reduces intermodulation distortion that would otherwise be created by the midrange driver trying to reproduce bass and mids at the same time. The clarity of the midrange in a high pass configuration is outstanding.

With my particular rig, I wouldn't dream of running it sub-less for music.

[TroyD]

How many people are using subs (SVS owners need not respond)that REALLY get into the low 20's?

BDT

[gidrah]

I even disconnected my sub from my 5.1 rig. The 15"ers go low enough for me and sound great on the first watt. Someday I'll give them 2 watts.

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by gidrah
Someday I'll give them 2 watts. Power crazy VOT owner...

[Frank Z]

Sean,
No offense taken, and you are as entitled to your opinion as I am.

Let's put the ball back in your court for a minute though. You question the Lsi15's ability to play well down to 22hz. I feel that the 15's do an exceptional job pounding out the bass. Can you shake more pictures off the walls by adding a sub, of course. I guess if you listen to a lot of Rap/Hip-Hop noise that is bass heavy then you may benefit from a seperate sub. But for realistic reproduction of music, I still say that a sub is not necessary.

Dan can do what ever he wants with his money, but the blanket statement that "they very much do need a sub for music" is total BS! That's his opinion, which I disagree with. Perhaps his choice of music, or his listening room, or his preference of more bass than the artist/recording engineer intended is the basis for his beliefs. That's between him and his ears to decide, but is opinion is not "law"!

I stand behind the comment I made, why spend the cash on a full range speaker that is not going to meet your expectations! If a person is adament about using a sub, then perhaps a book shelf speaker with a sub would make more sense.

As for my Lsi-9's, no regrets with my purchase what so ever. They are fantastic for 2 channel listening without a sub in the area that they are in. I've had alot of people ask where the sub his hidden when they hear them playing. No they do not play as low the 15's, but for their intended purpose in my home, I don't need or want one. If they were in a dedicated, 2-channel only, critical listening area, then yes I would add a sub.

Regarding reviews in any magazine, keep in mind that most of the professional reveiwers out there are comparing against a reference system(s) that most of us only dream about. Ever read a perfect review? Me neither. I've read quite a few that find fault with at least 1 or more features for virtualy every speaker, amp, pre-amp, universal remote, etc. Reviews from any magazine should always be taken with a grain of salt.

If you have not had your hearing tested, go and get it done. You might be surprised at what you find out about your range of hearing. As a matter of fact I might have mine checked again as well, power tools are murder on the ears!

A full range speaker is just that, a speaker that is capable of playing all of the frequencies that humans can hear. Not everyone is going to have the same range of hearing though. If a person has a pair of full range ears to go along with their full range speakers then they are truly blessed! Adding a sub to "hear" the subsonic sound is comical to say the least!

Sean, the fact that you decided to spend more hard-earned cash on the 15's is mind numbing to me. After all the ranting about the Lsi9's not providing you with "Your Sound" I couldn't imagine you, of all people, buying more Lsi's! Hopefully they will live up to your expectations.

[polkatese]

One thing that I learned from using LSis for 2 channel critical listening is the need to have a good source and interconnect. When I tried moving around the 7/9/15, a sub made them almost indistinguishable between each other. As expected, without sub, the 7 sounds thin and not very enjoyable. On my current setup for 2 channels with 9, the low came out fine, but it's not as good as I like it to be, especially when I compare it to the 15 with Storm. Tinkering with the interconnects yield more variation on how it sounds, currently I have SCAT with bullet on this system, will try it with Transparent musiclink plus next week. Also, I am now looking into modding the CDP since I am convinced it will be the next improvement area that I can squeeze out of the system.

[Zero]

Frank,

Disagreeing with someone is fine, it happens all the time and it is happening now.

The issue at hand is how you go about addressing your disapproval. The aggressive nature of your response displayed more of personal contest than that of an opinion about audio gear alone.

In the past post, you stated:

"why spend the cash on a full range speaker that is not going to meet your expectations! If a person is adament about using a sub, then perhaps a book shelf speaker with a sub would make more sense."

Much better than:

"Then why did you waste your money on the 15's?!? You should have saved your money and bought the 9's instead. 15's go down to 22hz, thats plenty low enough for anyone, hell most people don't even have the ability to hear anything that low!"

As for my listening habits - yes, often times I do listen to this rap/hip hop crap. I also listen to some rock tracks that really take advantage of some good, powerfull, room shaking bass.

I sent full range signals to the LSi-9 in the past and a driver blew. That experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth - as it very well should. It would be foolish of me to attempt the same thing again.

Also - I am creating a 2.1 channel Audio/Video rig. It is being created to cater to musical tastes, as well as providing excellent reference level volume for movie's. This 2.1 channel rig is going to be about versitility.

As for my hearing, thats a whole other story in and of itself.

Creating full range is not a difficult task. However, creating a full range speaker that can meet every expectation of the octaves is incredibly difficult to find , and not cheap.

Lastly, with so little in the means of cash - hasnt it occured to you that if I could skip adding a sub-woofer.....I would not hesitate to do so? For an extra sub, Im looking at at least 650 dollars. A lot of coin for me to flip at the moment. A purchase that I am not excited about. If I have heard a "full range" speaker to meet my expectations as a stand alone stereo pair that fits my budget, don't you think I would have purchased them instead? Hell - with the exception of rare finds like SRS's and CA's, it just doesnt happen.

I only hope that the 8'' drivers on the 15's dont attempt to play octaves they clearly cannot handle. A problem with many Polk speaker's I have owned. Keeping fingers crossed over here.

[TroyD]

First thing, I think you will find that on the 15, 22hz is an overall response. If I remeber (and I'm too lazy to look) the -3db is 30hz.

It's just MY opinion, but if you are hitting 30hz at -3db, you are full range. I just don't think, for MOST musical applications you aren't missing much lower than that. I will also go on record as saying that in the sub 30hz region, an amp will run out of steam as quickly if not quicker than a speaker will.

I still say, gimmie a speaker that will hit 30hz and an amp that will drive it with some authority and you'll have a tough time beating it with a sub/sat affair.

BDT

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by ATCVenom I only hope that the 8'' drivers on the 15's dont attempt to play octaves they clearly cannot handle. A problem with many Polk speaker's I have owned. Keeping fingers crossed over here.

That can be a problem with a vented woofer design depending on the tune point and whether or not you install an infrasonic filter.

While the vented design is 4th order and the FR trails off pretty quickly below the tune point, the drivers can still "try" to play lower than that, and cone excursion can become very excessive and suddenly manifest itself as audible farting or even a clack at higher volumes.

For HT it's a real problem and overdriving a small vented woofer is easy. For music, which usually lacks significant content below 30 Hz, it's not as much of an issue. The LSi15 is tuned quite low if you believe the stats so I'm thinking the 15 should do justice to all but the deepest of music at any "reasonable" volume. I wouldn't feed the 15's a full bore organ piece at life-like playback volumes without expecting really bad things, though.

Deep extension does not automatically translate into big air moving capability. If you plot the FR of the 15's at low volume, you might very well see good in-room extension to around 28 Hz. Increase the volume, and the FR curve will start to progressively roll off sooner due to the thermal and mechanical limits of the driver and also due to port compression. At high volumes, you might only see flat extension into the mid 30 Hz region. The best bass systems maintain a near linear FR at all volumes within the safe operating range.

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by ATCVenom
I sent full range signals to the LSi-9 in the past and a driver blew.

//of course, he was probably clipping the 35w Rotel amp because he admittedly had the volume up at least half-way, if not more//

It would be foolish of me to attempt the same thing again.


Just added in a little snippit regarding the prior discussions on the 'blown' driver.

I do agree, it would be foolish to that again. ;)

Cheers,
Russ

[Zero]

To modify your little clippit...

It occured on a 110x2 watt Harman Kardon 3475 Stereo reciever on the 11 o clock position.

[RuSsMaN]

"Half-way up is never needed for music, but is needed for various films. Sum of All Fears had its way with the 9's.

The 35 wpc is more then enough power for me, especially in this room. I am simply past tired of accustations or suggestions of clipping due to high volumes."

And yes, you do mention the HK, but didn't mention any problems while using it. The post started after you hooked up the Rotel.

Cheers,
Russ

[Zero]

Dig Deeper Russ - you are very close.

You will find a few comments of mine claiming that the problem first began using the Harman Kardon. Though frustrated, I didnt feel any damage would have been done.

It is in the Rotel that I discovered contrary. When making this discovery on the Rotel I stated what I was currently running, vice where things began. I corrected this later - but I could see how that could have been mis-leading.

For musical applications in a bedroom, this thing has some balls. The only speaker it has had trouble powering was ironically, the RTi's. Nothing but respect for this little integrated.

In the end - the results occured. I have the 15's now. Soon they will be given 250 clean watts per channel (into 8 ohms) with 500 watts of dynamic power. More than enough....

Now its just a waiting game..

[TroyD]

hmmmm....I currently am sending 350wpc through my LSi9's and have really been putting them through the paces and the 9's have handled it just fine. I haven't heard them bottom out once.

BDT

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I run my speakers at 75% (digitally) -- this is MAX for them, basically -- the amps are not distorting, and I can NOT detect any distortion, and the speakers do not sound strained. Today in the digital world, this is no more *half way* -- then it negatives and percents. Half way on my receiver is -50, and that is only like 60db.....

Sean what Rig are you trying to build?

Russ, what does it matter what he blew it on?

Sean, thats rather funny. Is the Rotel 35 watts into 8 ohms? If so, I find the RTi's alone need atleast 60 watts of real power (to my experience, could vary between amps). I noticed I need a bigger amp, or possibly a second amp with the RTi70, but I don't have the cash flow....

Polk's are VERY ineffecient.....if I have noticed anything at all about them....

[RuSsMaN]

Sid,

It would help if you READ the (entire) post before commenting. He said his LSi9's couldn't handle the load, I beg to differ that he was simply clipping. See any relevence now?

Polks are inefficient? Since when? Almost every Polk EVER made has been 90db 1w/1m and up.

Cheers,
Russ

[Zero]

Not to bring back old dusty subjects, but the real reason I continue to question the 9's being clipped is the fact that I used other speakers, including the R15's..on the same source, the same track, and the exact same volume... Had no issue's.

Then again, the 9's are more demanding.

Also, Docs explination is very good and flows with my experiences.!

[organ]

Sid,
The only inefficient speakers from Polk is the LSi line. The RTi are very efficient. The LSi at 4-Ohms nominal and 88db/w/m will need about double the power of the RTi line. You don't need a minimum of 60w/ch to make them sing. I moved from a 120w/ch NAD to a 35w/ch Dynakit and don't feel the need to add more power.

Maurice

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by organ
The only inefficient speakers from Polk is the LSi line. The RTi are very efficient. The LSi at 4-Ohms nominal and 88db/w/m will need about double the power of the RTi line. And you are saying that is not a recipe for clipping???

You don't need a minimum of 60w/ch to make them sing. I moved from a 120w/ch NAD to a 35w/ch Dynakit and don't feel the need to add more power. Sand amp vs. Tube... apples and oranges... The Dynaco likely has more dynamic power than the NAD.

[Frank Z]

Gawd Damnit organ! My wife reads the same posts I do! Now how in the hell am I gonna convince her that I need a new Sunfire 7 channel amp that cranks out 800wpc x 7 into 4 ohms!! Thanks alot!!;)

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Originally posted by ATCVenom
For musical applications in a bedroom, this thing has some balls. The only speaker it has had trouble powering was ironically, the RTi's. Nothing but respect for this little integrated.

Russ,

Before you post, read the whole thread.....

[organ]

Tour,
Sid said that "Polk speakers are VERY inefficient" and the RTi line "needs at least 60w of power". I'm assuming he meant that the RTi and LSi are very inefficient. The RTi are inefficient when compared to horns though. I just don't agree with the minimum of 60w for the RTi line.
Good point about the amps. Didn't realy think abot that before I posted.

Frank,
Sorry man:). Just tell her about the tube vs transistor power that Tour pointed out;).

Maurice

[Tour2ma]

Got ya organ... I was putting your post more in the context of ATC's reply above yours...

Originally posted by Frank Z
Gawd Damnit organ! My wife reads the same posts I do! Now how in the hell am I gonna convince her that I need a new Sunfire 7 channel amp that cranks out 800wpc x 7 into 4 ohms!! Thanks alot!!;) Well you don't... What you need are two 5-ch Sig Cin Grands or 10 x 800 wpc... just about the same price if you are open to used equipment... :D

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

10x800?????????

Holy......

[Tour2ma]

... sheet??? :D

And with 10 ch's you can bi-amp the mains and still have two left over for a second zone...

[Zero]

Almost give's ya a hard-on, doesnt it ?

[Loud & Clear]

Originally posted by TroyD


I still say, gimmie a speaker that will hit 30hz and an amp that will drive it with some authority and you'll have a tough time beating it with a sub/sat affair.

BDT

I feel similarly.

[mantis]

ATC,
for some reason or another FrankZ has it out for me.Matters not really his Info about the Lsi's is incorrect.The correct info is they play solid down to 32hz.After that they fall off.You miss the entire signal after 25hz.They simply has no output there.

I have no Idea why my opnions need to be LAW........what the hell is that about????I feel the Lsi15's need a sub.I listen to Jazz,Classical,Light Rock,Celtic,and many others.Low bass is low bass.If you cannot reproduce it,then you simply aren't hearing/feeling the entire recording.Simple.

Most guys around here run at the mouth but do little or no testing.Have no experience and sound like Idiots.Thats fine.

Why every single thead as to go in a war one way or another is behond me.Whats so hard with leaving an opnion and leaving it at that......but no most asses around here have to make it some kind of asshole point.

Bottom line above all else.........I think we need to step back a bit from this anger thing,hate thing,revenge thing or what ever it is.

I'm into audio not bullshit

[dorokusai]

I can't comment on the LSi series since it has had a limited impact on me, but I havn't heard a speaker to date that would not benefit from a subwoofer. That is simply personal, and may be because I prefer some higher level of bass reproduction, than the purist. I get the gist of what you are saying Mantis.

[mantis]

dorokusai,
maybe for better things to come

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

The only speaker I have heard that does not need a subwoofer for music is the Wilson Audio X-1. It needs one for movies, but for music.....

Let me put it this way....

Its kinda like your clothes went off and left you....

[Frank Z]

Originally posted by mantis
As a owner of the Lsi15's they very much do need a sub for music.A good powered sub will set the foundation for your music.Without going into the 20's and lowers,in my opnion you just lose the inpact and weight of some passes.


Sounds like more mantis BS, your comment comes across as the way it just has to be, mantis has spoken, all others are wrong!

Matters not really his Info about the Lsi's is incorrect.

Hey numb nuts get your read on! Overall frequency response IS 22hz-27.

http://www.polkaudio.com/home/specs.php?category=25&speaker=165

You re-writting the spec's for Polk now? 32hz? Must hurt like hell when you reached around and pulled that magic number outta your ass!

Check your Zen Whoopie history book you dipstick, you brought all the hate and discontent down on yourself with your lame assed comments and that totally undeserved over inflated ego of yours. You are by no means an expert on anything other than spouting virtually unreadable bullshit.

You are now, always have been, and always will be nothing more than a box cutter!

Wet clean up in Aisle 3...schmantis...go clean it up after your done stocking the tampons!

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by F1nut
What's this Jes stuff??? You and Tour......it's Jesse. :D We were planning on calling you "se" later a bunch of times... :D

[Tour2ma]

Oops sorry, I was still trying to have some fun here. Hadn't realized this thread had degenerated into a pissing contest...

Dan,
You opened the thread with a good question that stimulated a great deal of good discussion. Take it as that. If your mind was already made up from the get-go, it's no never mind to me, but it irritates some.

The discussion never truly degenerated into anything derrogatory until you started brandishing the "idiots" and "assholes" card above.

And you know what thedeal is between you and Frank... a couple of effin chairs... Both of you should get over that.

And you both should learn how to read spec's. The 15's are - 3dB at 30 Hz, not 32 and not 22. The overall lower limit of 22 doesn't mean squat, except that the bass has completed its checkout...

Frank,
Phrasing aside, raising the point of considering "lesser" mains when the intentions of using a sub for 2 ch is a legitimate point and needed to be included in the discussion. The sub/ no-sub choice should be a factor in all non-source choices in planning a rig, if budget is a consideration.

Sorry to see that you had to react and reply.


It's in the ears folks... to each his own...

[Dr. Spec]

Typically speakers are rated in an anechoic or quasi anechoic chamber. This will not provide boundary reinforcement, often referred to as "room gain".

A rating of -3dB at 30 Hz will usually translate into flat (0 dB) at 30 Hz in-room, as room gain typically provides a 3-4 Hz extension over anechoic.

Again, being a vented speaker, the 15's will probably trail off rapidly below their tune point, and Dan's experience of them largely signing off by 25 Hz is probably valid. Although I don't know if he has actually run a sweep on them in-room (not hard to do). I've done it on my 800's and I know they sign off around 38 Hz, being several dB down at that point.

And remember, there is no standard for the volume at which a speaker is tested for FR anechoically. An unscrupulous manufacturer (not saying Polk is) will often run the sweep at 70 dB and the deep extension will look far more favorable than it does at a real world music volume of say 90-95 dB.

The best way to determine the actual in-room extension of the 15's is to run a corrected sweep on them at say 95 dB at the listening position and see exactly how they perform.

Doc

[mantis]

Frank Z,

Sounds like more mantis BS, your comment comes across as the way it just has to be, mantis has spoken, all others are wrong!
I think you read what you wanna hear.......
in my opnion you just lose the inpact and weight of some passes.
Re read the last line of what I said.....OPNION is there man.I don't know why when I speak in here,you have to assume that my words are the be all end all........there's no reason for what you say Frank.Whatever your problem is with me,I'll be more then happy to talk to you about it on your terms.I have AOL IM so if you wanna talk to me and get whatever this THING you have for me in the past..........name your time.

Hey numb nuts get your read on! Overall frequency response IS 22hz-27.
Does your Lsi15's go to 22??Mine don't.I have tested them and they don't have any output there.This is why I say spec's are spec's and real world is the real world.If you run a sweep on your 15's,you will see what I'm talking about.Knowing the path and walking the path are 2 different things my friend.

I also think it's sad we have to have this tention between us,we share alot of the same gear and to tell you the truth,I think your theater is really nice.The whole couch thing..........well I just thought it was funny.Your theater seating is really nice.By the way you can make rows with your chairs.There are add on's you can buy straight or curved for a row look.If your into it anyway.Salamander is really putting awesome products on the market,they have for years.There new line of seating is awesome.Check it out when you get time.

Last words bud ,lets end this ok,I enjoy posting.........I do do you?

[TroyD]

The discussion never truly degenerated into anything derrogatory until you started brandishing the "idiots" and "assholes" card above.

Agreed, I think it was a pretty good discussion until that point.


Most guys around here run at the mouth but do little or no testing.Have no experience and sound like Idiots.Thats fine.

Gee Dan, whoever might you be refering to? Last time I looked, I and a few others had quite a bit of gear to test our opinions out on.

Why every single thead as to go in a war one way or another is behond me.Whats so hard with leaving an opnion and leaving it at that......but no most asses around here have to make it some kind of asshole point.

Dan, again, it takes two to have an argument. Of late, I've tried to ignore you but I feel compelled to point this out. You just seem to have a knack for taking things WAY to personally.

BDT

[TroyD]

Ok, back to the original discussion.

Really though, how much info is there below 30hz on most recordings??? What are you REALLY missing from the 20-30hz region?

Also, I asked this before, for those using subs (again, SVS dudes aside) how low do you think they really go?

BDT

[gidrah]

Originally posted by TroyD
Having said that, it depends on your tastes. For me, give me a speaker that plays into the mid 40's and I'm perfectly happy.
BDT

I couldn't agree more. As long as those lower octaves are well produced. I've heard speakers that can go mighty low that could still benefit from a sub. I've also heard (and own) speakers that "on paper" could better benefit from a sub, but I don't think it's necessary. Maybe someday I'll add a sub to them, but that'll have to be one hell of a sub. Not only to make it worthwhile, but also to not actually detract from the overall sound, just to make the bottom octaves that I seldom need for my musical tastes.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by TroyD
Really though, how much info is there below 30hz on most recordings??? What are you REALLY missing from the 20-30hz region?

Overall - music containing bass below 30 Hz is the exception rather than the rule - but it does exist.

Some classical stuff digs pretty low. Some huge kettle drums are tuned to 26-28 Hz for example. The pipe organ obviously qualifies, but Mahler's Symphony #2 finale also has some good stuff in the 20-30 Hz region.

The truly deep bass present in today's music is largely synthesized or is a special effect. The amount of time a music disc spends in the 20-30 Hz region can probably be measured in seconds, but when it is properly reproduced, it's impressive.

My Advents (New Large circa '78-'79) for example are flat to about 30 Hz in room and they ignore much of the really deep stuff in Chapter 13 of the Gladiator soundtrack.

Also from the SVS website:

NIN "Closer" very strong at 25 Hz.

Ditto for Notorious BIG "Dead Wrong".

City Of Angels soundtrack - huge 28 Hz hit.

Blue Man Group - DVD-A is famous for a bunch of stuff in the 25 Hz region.

Metallica - Cunning Stunts "Enter Sandman" cannon shot is big from 20-30 Hz, ditto for the gunfire from "one". Although a cannon shot and gunfire could be construed as a special effect rather than true music, it is there nonetheless.

There are other examples, but you get the idea.

It's all a matter of priorities and how much you want to spend for really good bass. Will the LSi15 benefit from a true quality subwoofer? Sure. Do they deserately need one? Probably not in most people's opinion. This is a good example of the law of diminishing returns.

If you want to hear it "all" for those music CDs that truly contain it, you really do need a sub that truly does dig flat to 20 Hz or lower, as many of the "subs" on the market (like Troy says) don't dig any lower than the 15's and some of them don't even dig that low.

Doc

[TroyD]

As usual....Well put Doc. Well put.

BDT

[burdette]

Someone said it.. I think it does have a lot to do with what you're used to. We used Monitor 5jr+ as mains for music for a long time, and they sounded great.. didn't slam you, but very pleasing and "full" sounding. Until, that is, I was able to again set up the Monitor 7Cs, and realized there was some bottom end I was missing. The 5s still sounded good, but after the comparision, my mind "knew" something was missing, so I heard it more clearly.. or didn't hear it, I guess. So the 7s sounded great.. until I added the sub and realized that there was a little MORE information down there for music that I'd been missing. Didn't consciously THINK about it before and have never EVER thought the 7s were missing anything (which is why I've kept them as my 'best' speakers for so long).

However, the added benefit of using the sub for 2-channel is that it relieved the mains from duty below 80Hz (I think my 7s are 3db down at 40Hz). That really cleared the way for the 6.5incher to be tighter and cleaner through the rest of its region.

[madmax]

I think you should hear/feel the full range of whatever material you play. If that requires a sub to enjoy the piece as the artist intended then a sub is necessary. If you decide to give up this range because your mains will not handle it and don't want to correct the situation that is fine but others may have a different opinion as to whether they are willing to give up that part of the experience.
madmax

[TroyD]

I'll agree with mm's point to an extent but here is where I say quality over quantity. Here is where I would actually pull a page out of one of Dan's brochures and say that the key lies in matching. I feel that matching up your mains so that it blends well is a daunting task. Not saying that it CAN'T be done, just that it would be a bit more difficult and as someone else pointed out, the whole cost/benefit factor comes in to play.

If I were to compare let's say my CA's, DQ-10's and LSi7's.....the thing that would make me prefer one over the other is NOT the bass response (or lack thereof) of each.

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

And to add Troy, a lot of these guys can hear a BIG difference between different SS amps, remember? So not only would they be running a different brand on their sub(s), but a probably a different class too (Class a-a/b vs d).

Where should the gain be set? To your taste, or the way the recording was meant to be heard? How can you even determine the latter?

To each his own, I'm not afflicted with gottaberightus like another member is, but I think from a purist standpoint - ie critical listening - adding a sub probably does more harm then good.

Cheers,
Rooster

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Since I am strictly 2 channel right now, and have been for almost a month. I feel I should comment as I agree with alot that has been said.

I have heard many speakers, and the only speaker I have heard that did not need a subwoofer during music was indeed the Wilson Audio X-1. The X-1 had ungodly amounts of bass. Especially at higher levels. Were talking concert levels of chest pounding, your clothes are gonna leave you type bass. Truly awesome bass there.

However, I have noticed with mine, my Dad's, and others - that most speakers (unless a subwoofer is built in) requires a subwoofer to really experience the music. I have not heard many full range speakers so far, the SRT would be one (but it had subwoofers built in).

Anyways,
I play my RTi70 on large, with the M&K running with it. I have the M&K crossed over at 65hz (which is where I like it, because at anything higher than that, I could tell where it was and the M&K was doing to much for my musical taste). But I run the M&K relatively hot, which for the M&K is about right on with the music. So I run it at about 70% on the volume knob, and 0db Subwoofer Gain on the receiver. Since my system is currently not plugged up to DVD Players or VCRs then this suits it fine and does not bottum out at all, or if it does - it does not bother me as I can not hear it.

I will say this though, the RTi70 has killer amounts of bass for not having a subwoofer built in. I have turned them on alone, and if I had about 250 watts pushing them...anything above 40hz would easily satisfy me (as they do now, even with a 100).

Some people though, enjoy their speakers without a subwoofer (mainly because they feel they are getting what they want out of their music (which is good and all) but I will say that most music I have heard, basically needs a subwoofer, some way somehow).

Why do I say that? Well music is dynamic, I notice the midrange tightens up, becomes cleaner, more dynamic. The top end also becomes smoother. So really, unless you have killer amounts of power (this is my opinion) the bass needs to be backed up, some how.

But then again, what do I know? I'm a kid, that is talking from what he has heard and plainly is speaking on opinion and that is all. So I will shut up now...

[Loud & Clear]

Troy and Russ have made some great points again on this issue, and I'm assuming this issue is strictly a two channel setup debate; there's no denying what a sub brings to home theater.

Well, I'd like to add this: with some speakers, like my 55i's, the benefit of additional extension, and additional slam, isn't worth the sacrifice I feel you make in terms of the overall continuity of the musical picture; anything disjointed, or ill-timed gives me a strange look on my face; a puzzled, slight frown. Maybe there's a sub out there that can be made to completely disappear with them, but they'd have to do just that, and like Troy said (paraphrasing) "that ain't easy." Other speakers, like with my 35i's, I'm willing to sacrifice some of the overall continuity because they *require* additional extension and slam.

I think a lot of this is about compromise, as well as perception and interpretation. I know what I like, and I trust that the same can be said for everyone else here.

[mantis]

LOOK,
out of Mantis handbook,being RIGHT,and all that stupid crap is exactly that.Get over it.........

I'm not about any of it.Actually I'm real tired of hearing it.Read my posts like anyone elses,OPNION.Thats what I bring.Audio and video for that matter is loaded with it.Agree?Lets all get over it.


As far as why I started this thead is to get opnions of others and how they feel.Use one or not,it's something to think about.Getting a sub to match is golden.

Troy did make some good points with matching.How hard is it to get the lower end to match????I personally think it's not as cridical as I once did.Over time experience pays off.Listening to differnet sub's with different speakers in differnet rooms teaches you alot.

2 channel is what the orignal question was about.I know alot of you do it.As most of you know I'm a multichannel guy and have been for years.2 channel is very sadisfying and I believe adding the right sub with a given pair of speakers just adds that last bit of foundation.I own the Lsi15s and use them for 2 channel.I love them without a sub,but adding in sub's does change things.It seems to add weight.Remember correctly blending the sub so it is felt and not heard.Thats my goal.

Right now I'm in full demo mode(like I'm not any other time but...)a sub is what I wanna bring home.REL is the standard(mine anyway not yours..opnion remember please)The Velodynes are really a hell of a sub comp[any and I'm digging in each and every day.They are truely musical but so far not better then REL.They do however have more output for theater and shaking the room abilities.No boom but force that hits you in the chest.I like it.

The other thing I'm kicking around is using 2 different systems for music and theater.REL's are perfect for dual usage systems,but 2 channel by itself has a certain soft spot in my newly hearted heart.

I really don't wanna argue with any of you,even Russ and Troy.I'd much rather talk about this.So for the record I was out of line with some of my comments and I apolize.

Dan

[madmax]

Let me point out MY opinion in one more way. When you are listening you should be able to close your eyes and pretend you are someplace else listening to the performance. Now here is the hard part: can you be at a performance, close your eyes and pretend you are in your livingroom? Keep in mind I am not talking about being at a rock concert where everything is coming from a PA system. I am talking small venues where you are hearing each instrunent. For example, the bass guitar is coming from his cabinent, the lead is coming from his (I don't know, Marshall cab), the singer's sound is coming from his little stage monitor, and one example I like a lot, the B3 organ is coming from a few leslies sitting around the room. Oh yea, the drummer is sitting somewhere and you can tell where his different drums and cymbals are sitting and they sound live. Is this so hard? For me it was until I started really listening. Of course you have to hear a few small bands live as well. ...If you hear a stereo when you close your eyes and try to pretend, well, you have not made it there yet...
madmax

[TroyD]

I'm feelin' ya there Chuck.....agree 100 percent.

All I'm saying is that is a rather daunting task.

BDT

[madmax]

In my case, a pair of sda-srs, two manly amps, an age old luxman CD player, the right room and this or that interconnect and speaker cables. Not that BIG of a deal in my opinion. Yea, I went through a lot of equipment to get to that point but given e-bay pricing it all came around at about 3 grand. OK you could add the turntable and stands, magic brick and other useless stuff and add five times as much, but you don't have to... I am appalled at what a lot of people spend on their systems to get, well, SUBstandard performance. We all go through it but in the end you figure it out. At least I hope to.
madmax

[Zero]

Gentlemen,

I have read, and then re-read the posts here and for the most part - I am left scratching my head. While I can understand some people fail to relate to someone who wants bass lower than what the Lsi-15 has to offer (puritists, tastes, etc), I just dont understand this "Im right, your wrong" mentality. Perhaps I have read this thread in the wrong light.

Either way it doesnt matter. I am going to add a sub-woofer regardless. I will have a 45 day trial period to determine if its a good route to take. Call it stupid, worthless, wrong, improper, or whatever it is that your mind can conjure up - rest assured that your rig will not be stained with my errornous ways. No, I am not looking for pitty - I just feel the attitude in this thread stinks.

On a good note, whether I agreed or disagreed with a few comments, there have been some interesting ideas and informative controbutions.

I am no bass freak - but there are times when I want to shake the house off of its foundation. And there are times when I want that dynamic headroom. And it is during those times, when that sub will bring a smile to my face.

[TroyD]

Jeeze, Sean, don't get all Oprah on us. It's your rig, do what you want. That goes with out saying.

I gotta ask though, do you keep a dictionary and thesarus handy when you post? Reading your posts is like reading the op-ed page of the New York Times. ;)

BDT

[mantis]

ATC,
when you get your system up and running,I'd like to read what you think the difference is when running a sub and not.

Your going to like how REL can be setup.If it gives it to yeah,let me know.

[Zero]

Troy,

Bluntly put - there is no way in hell I will create a post without getting Oprah on somebody. Its just part of my day :)

Only dictionary I have by my side is the from Oxford, for Portuguese. Sad - I rarely ever use it.

Dan,

At a turning point as far as my rig is concerned. Got a few routes to take. Should keep on the straight and arrow - but that whole "what if" bothers the hell out of me. Oh damn that Musical Fidelity...

[faster100]

Here go's... to say what you like or me or someone else.. is like what ever! It doesnt really matter in the end, if you like a sub then use it.. I would guess someone saying they don't use one wouldnt change the way "you" feel.. So is their a right and wrong? sometimes, But not when it comes to speakers and subs or lack of one. matching is good, but not with everything.. so let each other live and learn and try, after all we all really dont know what people are trying and not posting about. They tend to post what people like to hear posts about.... what "everyone" else is into or likes or what is in, at the moment.

I like asking questions and take some of the answers lightly.. some to heart, depends on the source.

The whole Mantis, troy, Russ thing is typical club polk stuff and at times is tiresome and most times is funny and interesting to say the least.. everyone agree to disagree that you all don't like each other and move on, I certainly have tried to stay out of the fray as of late..


on track again, I like a sub, most all the time.. sometimes i run it hot AND sometimes neutral.. although my house is getting rewired and my rig has been unhooked.. and yesterday i had just my mains running on large no sub, and it had quite a bit of bass.. i was surprised largely at the bass these 70's produced.. now was it below 25-35 htz? I don't know, i don't care, It sounded good.. how can you enjoy the music if you worry about what they are playing at? just enjoy i say..

[Frank Z]

#1) I owe everyone an apology for going off half cocked! I will do my best to not let it happen again!

#2) Sorry to see Russ and Troy gettin the blame for my behavior. My fault not theirs. Bitch at me please, spare the innocent.

#3) I'm finally going to take own advice and engage the ignore feature so I don't go stirrin' the pot again.

Again, Sorry for the useless out bursts, perhaps I need a vacation.

Please continue.

[TroyD]

Jeeze, what's with all you Oprah Windbag-watchin' mofos? El Christo, put down the Little Debbie snack cakes already.

Frank, Russ, Me....Dan hates us all the same. WE don't have a receiver that cost as much as a good used Toyota but we DO have full surround rigs (although they aren't wired with Kimber 8tc) not to mention houses to put them in. ;)

Have a beer, be happy, press on.

BDT

[faster100]

so who else is oprah there Troy? LOL

you guys all argue like ya married or something,

[Frank Z]

Just tryin' to do right.

[mantis]

Troy,

let me try this thing..

1)Frank, Russ, Me....Dan hates us all the same.
Not true,I don't hate Frank.I would like to know what it is he has for me.You???You know why I don't like you.It has nothing to do with your gear.It's your attitude.You can be cool one minute and an ass the next.Russ........easy always half cocked.2 faced maybe....shame as I was starting to actually like Russ.We would talk off the forum and seem to get along just fine.But in here he wears a different shirt with me for whatever reason........
You guys just can't let the past be the past.

2)WE don't have a receiver that cost as much as a good used Toyota but we DO have full surround rigs (although they aren't wired with Kimber 8tc) not to mention houses to put them in. So why is this comment made Troy?Enjoy stabbing people when there down?Do you feel like a bigger man now Troy?My house...FUCK YOU DUDE.I'm going threw legal problems and every fucking thing.LAST TIME STOP JOKING AROUND WITH MY HOUSE IT ISN'T FUCKING FUNNY UNDERSTAND THAT?????????????????And why do you bring up my receiver.So what it costs what a good used car costs.All the speakers you own,I'm sure they all cost more then my receiver does.I can't figure out why that matters so much to you Troy.I can afford to own why the hell not?If I was into Carver then I would own that.
The wire thing..use whatever wire makes you happy.So what I like Kimber Kable.My system is down right now due to the up coming move.When ever it comes.My family and myself are going threw a very tuff time with the builder and the Township.I can't seem to get this thing to work.I wanted to get out along time ago but the wife has her heart set on this house.

Tired of talking with you Troy.I'm done with you.I won't be commenting on your posts anymore so hack all you want.I want nothing do to with you.That thing Frank talks about the Ignore feature,I 'm getting that in effect so we can avoid each other.

Broken record here..........

[TroyD]

Ten bucks says it isn't............

Hmmmm, I thought the occupancy permits were a done deal? I dunno if three years of hassle is worth a spec house.

Lemme think, I got 1175 in the mancave rig, wire and IC's included. In HT, I got 1825 in speakers, amps, receivers, sub. Pretty much everything but the TV. Might be a little more or a little less, just off the top of my head. I probably got another five or six hundred in other misc. gear I suppose.

BDT

[Dr. Spec]

The two threads over at the sub section on that privately recorded Church Organ music really bring into focus one example of what we are talking about for music and the need (or lack thereof) for a subwoofer.

This is a really well recorded disc of 20 organ church movements with full blown extension WAY below 20 Hz. The dynamic range has not been limited in any way, and the sheer amount of energy in the 15-20 Hz region is mind blowing. If this were a commercial release, it would have to have the equivalent of the Telarc 1812 "Digital Cannons" warning.

Anyway, it was great fun playing with this recording yesterday and this another examples of a really beautifully recorded music disc that would be a total bass washout on the 15's or even the 25's. I had to plug a port on the PB2+ to get it to respond with total authority on this disc; it's that deep.

Here's a ditty on how it was recorded:

The recordings were made with AKG mics (three of them) with omnidirectional capsules installed. They were about 15' from each other across the front of the churches for a total width of about 30' , at a height of about 10'. I used a proprietary microphone preamp/mixer (only one exists) which is one of the secrets of how these recordings sound so good. The signal was sent to a modified Sony DAT recorder and captured at 48Khz/16 bit. The audio was digitally imported into ProTools and sample rate converted in non-realtime at the highest quality setting which takes about 8 hours of number crunching on a fast computer for this amount of material. The tracks were edited in ProTools before burning onto CD.

[mantis]

Doc,
SVS gives you port plugs with there Sub's????Thats intresting.I noticed a huge difference in the Dynaudio line when using port plus.We used them mostly when the speakers HAD to go closer to the wall then we would have liked.This plug was made out of foam.Worked very well.I like the tightness.

One day I will get to hear/feel your sub.

Does that read right??

[Dr. Spec]

Dan:

Yes, the PB2+ has three 4" flared (on both ends) ports. You get two port plugs to alter the tune points on the sub.

The anechoic chamber tune for the sub is as follows:

Anechoic:
3 ports open 25 Hz
2 ports open 20 Hz
1 port open 16 Hz

With typical room gain, this translates into a real world extension of:

In-Room:
3 ports open 20 Hz
2 ports open 15 Hz
1 port open 11 Hz

My own in room measurements verify this. In fact the SS filter setting actually kicks in several Hz lower than the listed value to accomodate for room gain.

The 32 foot pipes on this organ provide a 16 Hz fundamental, so I plugged a port to get maximum power in the 15-20 Hz region.

I left the SS filter at 16 Hz, which essentially allows the sub to extend even lower than the tune point would suggest - to about 13 Hz in-room. Mismatching the port configuration and the SS filter setting is called a "non-conventional tune" and increases the potential to bottom the drivers by allowing them to operate below the enclosure tune point, but the PB2+ is so understressed in my size room I don't worry too much about it.

Here is an actual in-room FR sweep of the PB2+. I'm running the yellow line tune for the organ recording, and you can see the curve swell and peak in the 14-17 Hz region - smack dab in the middle of the 16 Hz note for the 32' organ pipe. You can imagine how impressive this sounds in a 2000 ft3 room. You are welcome to come over any time for a demo.

Doc

http://home.rochester.rr.com/themullenclan/PB2FR2.jpg

[RuSsMaN]

Great data Doc, I'm a little confused though. I thought closing ports would raise the tune point?

I mean, the more ports open, the lower the tune?

Cheers,
Russ

[Dr. Spec]

No, it's the other way around. Here is the other graph of the "conventional" tune points (i.e., SVS recommends these for the best combination of extension and woofer protection).

There are actually 6 tune configurations for this sub (shown by # of ports open and SS filter setting).

3/25 (conventional - SVS recommends)
3/20 (non-conventional)
3/16 (non-conventional)

2/20 (conventional - SVS recommends)
2/16 (non-conventional)

1/16 (conventional - SVS recommends)

My room is medium sized, so I run mine in the 3/16 tune for almost all applications (except the church organ music where I went 2/16).

You can see the 3/16 non-conventional tune (green line, 1st graph) peaks at 22 Hz and allows the sub to naturally roll-off with room gain and play down into the mid teens.

In comparison, in the 3/25 conventional tune (blue line, 2nd graph), you can see the SS filter very sharply ramps the response at 21-22 Hz. The 3/25 tune is for plaster cracking playback levels in large rooms where maximum protection of the woofers against bottoming is required.

The 1/16 tune trolls to a disgustingly low 11 Hz, but the overall output is limited by only one one port being open. I do not prefer this tune for any application.

Ed

http://home.rochester.rr.com/themullenclan/PB2FR1.jpg

[Strong Bad]

All I can say is Doc...I have got to get me one of these SVS Subs!

What is the biggest difference you've noticed between the original design (the tall round subs) and the newest line (the traditional box type sub)?

How do they compare musically? How about all out with a movie going in 5.1?

John

[madmax]

So why does a smaller port (one rather than 3) lower the resonant freq of the box?
I don't understand that one. :confused:
madmax

[RuSsMaN]

I don't get it either Chuck.

I would think the fewer ports, the higher the tune, and higher max spl.

More ports, lower tune, and lower max spl.

I've been trying to make sense of it for 2 days. Not saying I don't believe Doc, I just can't get it to make sense to *me*.

Cheers,
Russ

[Dr. Spec]

The box subs and the cylinder subs sound identical if they have the same driver (ISD, Plus, Ultra) and tune point.

The box subs with dual drivers of course outdo the single cylinders in terms of overall SPL.

For example, Tom V of SVS recently stated the PB2-ISD tuned to 20 Hz (one port plugged, two ports open) will match or even slightly exceed a 20-39PC+ tuned to 20 Hz (all three ports open) in the 16-25 Hz range. Above 25 Hz, the PB2-ISD beats the 20-39PC+ by 3-4 dB due to its greater driver surface area.

As far as the tune points and the port plugging, HSU is the same way with the VTF-2 and VTF-3. The proof is in the pudding with the graphs, and I know no one is doubting me. But I can only answer this tonight because I have all the port and enclosure tuning equations on my home PC.

Each port has the same length (probably about 25"). Each port has the same surface area (4" ID = 12.6 in2 not counting flared ends). And the internal enclosure volume is constant (for the purposes of this exercise anyway). The enclosure exterior dimensions are 18x25x28 (or thereabouts). The internal volume (taking into account wall thickness and drivers, and amp, etc.) is probably around 9,500 in3 or 5.5 ft3 (rough guess here, could be a bit less).

If anyone has the equation that will dicate the tune point for a vented enclosure, you can input the port length and port area and enclosure volume for all three ports open, for two ports open, and for one port open and see what happens.

Burdette might have it handy; he just built his sono-sub and we crunched a bunch of numbers to calculate the tune point. WinISD will do the same thing, I just don't have any of this stuff at work. In fact, come to think of it, the thread where Mark and I calced out some tune points might have the equations posted. Anyone want to do a thread search?

Doc

[madmax]

With my program increasing the port size lowers the resonance freq. It may be that they are already at the lowest response most people would choose with the ports plugged and are digging even deeper when the other ports are open. Given that, if you lower the res freq even more (by opening the ports) the response is drug even lower at the expense of not being flat. That is the only logical conclusion.
madmax

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

A sealed enclosure hits lower than a ported enclosure. But not quite as loud.

Here is my guess, when you plug the port, more air pressure is put on the woofer to make it exstend farther, slower, almost in a way, flooding the driver. It also increases turbulance in the single port. So if you hit 16hz, the driver would have major air flow all inside the enclosure, with massives amounts of air gushing out of the single port

[madmax]

Actually some benifits of a sealed sub are that you control extension below the resonant freq and after you hit the res freq it is a steady slope of 3db per octive thereafter. If your room is the right size then it starts making up for this loss. It is also very easy to eq in a larger area since you know the curve.
madmax

[Dr. Spec]

This formula is from "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook".

Lv = ((1.463 x 10^7) (R^2) divided by (Fb^2)(Vb)) – 1.463R

Where:

Fb - is the tuning frequency of your enclosure in Hertz.
Lv - is the length of your port in inches.
R - is the inside radius of your vent tube.
Vb - is the internal volume of your enclosure in cubic inches.

In our case for the PB2+, the (estimated) values are:

Fb = to be calculated
Lv = 25" (fixed)
R = 3.46" (3 ports open); 2.82" (2 ports open); 2" (1 port open)
Vb = 9500 in3 (fixed)

Remember, if the vent length is fixed, all you are varying is the port area when you plug a port.

To calculate the "equivalent radius" of three 4" diameter vents, you need to use the forumula A=piRR. The area of three 4" vents is about 38 square inches, so the "equivalent radius" of a single vent with the exact same surface area would be 3.46" (i.e., a 7" diameter vent). The equivalent radius for two 4" vents is 2.82" (i.e., a 5.6" diameter vent). Of course there is no need for an equivalent radius for a single vent.

Solving for Fb:

27 Hz (3 ports open)
22 Hz (2 ports open)
16 Hz (1 port open)

Whaddya know? The laws of physics and mathematics still apply!

My guessimates on the PB2+ vent length and internal enclosure volume must have been pretty close since the numbers crunched out pretty close to the actual tune points.

Class dismissed.

Doc

[Zero]

Was told that the PB-2 ISD would crawl down to about 16 hz with 123 db spl.. Hmmm wonder if that will be good enough
hehe

[madmax]

I tried WinIsd again and I guess when you change port diameter it is automaticly changing port length making it hard to get a handle on port diameter while keeping the length the same and what it does to box res. Thinking after a few beers is ruining my evening here :D
madmax

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

If Russ owned a SVS, the port diamater would change constantly......with white internal *corrosion*

[madmax]

Euuwwwwweeeeeee..............

[RuSsMaN]

Good call Sid - how did you know I would need a 3" wide port?

[dan t]

Originally posted by TroyD
How many people are using subs (SVS owners need not respond)that REALLY get into the low 20's?

BDT


Count me in. I own a Velodyne SPL-1200 and like it. According to Sound and Vision Magazine, the SPL-1200 was measured at a "bone-rattling 16 Hz". I believe it.


Dan

[dan t]

Current front setup is:

Polk Monitor 10 Series2
Sony TA-E9000ES pre-pro
Adcom GFA 7700
Velo SPL-1200

My doors records sound pretty good.,.,

Dan

[Dr. Spec]

With my program increasing the port size lowers the resonance freq. It may be that they are already at the lowest response most people would choose with the ports plugged and are digging even deeper when the other ports are open. Given that, if you lower the res freq even more (by opening the ports) the response is drug even lower at the expense of not being flat. That is the only logical conclusion.

I've taught part time at a local college for the last six years, and I've seen this repeating pattern of behavior where my students are compelled to justify the answer that their PC or calculator is displaying, even if it means violating basic tenets of mathematics or physics. I always tell them that the answer being displayed has to make sense and if it doesn't, something is wrong and go back and check your input values and equations.

I'm picking on you here in the warmest possible terms and without any prejudice or malice; your post so perfectly fit this behavioral phenomenon I just had to relay my experiences with it.

I tried WinIsd again and I guess when you change port diameter it is automaticly changing port length making it hard to get a handle on port diameter while keeping the length the same and what it does to box res.

Now this post is after you have seen the long hand equations and are now pretty convinced something was amiss with your original thought process. So armed with that, you return to WinISD with your critical thinking cap on, and lo and behold you discover WinISD automatically alters a second key parameter when the one in question is being changed, making it impossible to prove or disprove our theory. Well done madmax.

Doc

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by ATCVenom
Was told that the PB-2 ISD would crawl down to about 16 hz with 123 db spl.. Hmmm wonder if that will be good enough
hehe

Regarding the relative merits of the PB2-ISD vs. PB2+ vs. PB2 Ultra:

All three will have the same extension capabilities, but the PB2+ will have an edge in clean output capabilities, and the PB2 Ultra will take that another step further.

Going from the PB2-ISD to the PB2+ will give you a 2-4 dB jump. Going from the PB2+ to the PB2 Ultra will give you another 1-2 dB jump. So going from the PB2-ISD to the PB2-Ultra will give you a jump in the 3-6 dB range.

All of the SV subwoofers are designed to produce any input signal (music or film) as accurately as possible. The PB2+ and PB2-ISD will sound identical until the PB2-ISD reaches its output limits. At that point, the PB2+ will still be able to play another 2-3 dB louder without straining.

I doubt the PB2-ISD can generate 123 dB at 16 Hz. It would only have one or two 3" ports open for this tune and this is simply not enough port to get the job done. It might hit 123 dB at the listening position in the 25-30 Hz region, though.

Doc

[madmax]

No offense taken. I consider programs such as WinISD tools and rely on them. Being 42 and having a BSEE leaves me lazy these days. Truthfully I hadn't given the port thing a lot of thought other than I noticed a relationship in port size while playing around with a bunch of different drivers. But lets get to a common sense summary. If you have one port it has a certain diameter and length. If you place another port of the same size in the box you would raise the resonant frequency of the box. If you then lengthen the ports you can again lower the res freq. This is fun stuff!
madmax

[Zero]

Dr.Spec,

I apologize for my lack of sentance structure. I exchanged a few E-mails with Tom, gave him the deminsions of my room, construction material, and he estimated that the PB2 ISD could troll down to 16-18 hz. 123 db would be the maximum spl period, most likely in the range you just indicated.

As for cealed enclosure's, for some reason, it makes sense to me. Alas, just using instinct here........numbers are meant for someone else, but not for me. :p

Sean

[Strong Bad]

Good lord! You guys make listening to music and movies a serious effort! Too much effort for me!

Just buy the damn thing, set it up and enjoy! :D

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
A sealed enclosure hits lower than a ported enclosure. But not quite as loud.


This is not true. The sealed enclosure is not known for its ability to troll.

Unless it is equipped with a LT circuit, the acoustic suspension design obeys Hoffmann's Iron Law and needs to be incredibly large in order to achieve a really deep tune point with good volume. The Large Advent Loudspeaker we both own for example is tuned to about 32 Hz.

Most sealed designs are flat to the 30-35 Hz region and then they (correct madmax) roll-off at a slower rate (2nd order) than the 4th order vented design.

The benefits of the sealed design are almost ideal transient response and group delay characteristics and ease of design. A properly designed sealed unit with a good woofer will almost always produce excellent bass quality and they are often the DIY choice in a music only application.

The vented design cheats and relies on the resonator (port or PR) to deepen the extension and increase the volume. When the resonator is tuned properly, it begins to take over as the driver would naturally start rolling off and it provides a seamless extension of the frequency response along with maintaining considerable volume capability in the lowest octaves.

It's cool to look at a woofer excursion charts for a vented sub. The woofer excursion is the highest just before the tune point (this is the frequency which limits the overall SPL the sub is capable of producing) and as the resonator takes over, woofer excursion drops dramatically. It is at this point in a vented design that lots of air starts flowing out of the ports.

Below the tune point, the resonator fails to efficiently function and the woofer excursion again skyrockets and this can cause bottoming since the vented design lacks the "restoring force" of the sealed design and the woofer becomes poorly controlled below the tune point. Hence the need for a subsonic filter in a vented subwoofer at high SPL.

Doc

[shack]

Originally posted by john d. strong
Good lord! You guys make listening to music and movies a serious effort! Too much effort for me!

Just buy the damn thing, set it up and enjoy! :D


I tend to agree. I'll tweek my golf swing...I'll tweek the motor on my Mustang...but when it comes to audio, I'll set it up and if it sounds and looks good then I kick back and enjoy the music/video.

However...thank goodness there are those who like to tweek the audio/video stuff because it makes my enjoyment easy!

[faster100]

Doc, will they ever listen and learn? from the pro!

iTS A subwoofer people, it produces bass.. ok next subject!! LOL Kidding kidding, funny haha I know how you guys can get in here.. :D :D :D without the smileys and lol's

[madmax]

The subwoofer is only one little small part of the experience.
madmax

[Tour2ma]

What if it's a big subwoofer??? :D

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

What if....
It's a SVS PB4? If I owned that thing, the first 24 hours of its playing would be all bass tracks.....

[madmax]

A friend just bought one of the SVS self powered subs. It sounds good but I noticed something that disturbed me a little. You can see the top of the tube moving in a horizontal plane. Up to maybe 1/2 inch. The woofer is facing downward obviously and the port is upward. It seems it should not move side to side? Any opinions on this? It seems that this would cause distortion or something. Do all of them do that?
madmax

[Dr. Spec]

You said vent in the singular, so I'm assuming this is a PCi and not a PC+ or an Ultra. The vent is screwed to the endcap with wood screws. The hole in the endcap is sized for the vent. I can't imagine it moves 1/2" back and forth. If it does, the screws are loose and something is wrong and he should contact SVS technical support.

I never had that issue with my PC+ and neither has my buddy with his 25-31PCi - those vents are pretty well secured in my experience. But anything is possible and he should email tech support.

[faster100]

those who have SVS love them, those who don't... just don't know yet!! Us foaming at the mouth SVS owners!! LOL

[madmax]

It is not the vent, it is the whole enclosure. Obviously the bottom doesn't move much because it is sitting on the floor (bare concrete) but the top does. I didn't look but given the way it moves it must have rubber feet.
madmax

[Dr. Spec]

Oh...by tube I thought you meant port. My mistake. You were talking about the entire cylinder.

Yes, the cylinder has small rubber feet and the reactionary forces of the driver are quite strong and the driver is capable of moving the sub around on a concrete or armstrong floor. Mine actually used to move a few inches at a time during the bassy heavy parts of movies at loud playback. A piece of carpeting under it should solve that problem.

It may appear as if the tubing is flexing at the top and not the bottom but it's not. The ruber feet are giving a bit and it's moving back and forth. That tubing is extremely strong and rigid in the lateral plane and is virtually impossible to flex or bend with the endcaps installed.

The tubing is far more rigid and stronger than Sonotube (or it's equivalent), being a custom laminate material made exclusively for SVS which is covered in a sound deadening polymer and cut to exacting tolerances on a CNC lathe. This tubing has survived being dropped off a roof top without damage.

How much time did you spend with the sub and do you feel it was properly calibrated and well placed and set-up? Did you listen to music or movies?

Thanks.

[mantis]

faster100
I just dig when someone loves what they own.

I just gotta hear a SVS sub go.One of these days.

[Dr. Spec]

Dan, you're coming up for Dr. Spec's LOTR EE marathon, right?

[madmax]

So far I have only spent maybe 20 minutes with it. It was sitting in the middle of the room to test it out. Nothing more. (the room is under major construction right now). We were running a generator through it to see what in the room made noise at different frequencies. It's amazing what freq's you can pick out as troublesome if you spend the time.
madmax

[Dr. Spec]

Is this a 25-31, 20-39, or 16-46 PCi?

[madmax]

I'll have to ask him the model. It appears to be about 4 feet high, single port, self powered. I would assume one of the less costly series.
madmax