Squeezebox Touch-tips, tricks & tweaks

[steveinaz]

Looking for info on the best SB settings, directory structure, etc, any tips that will maximize perfomance/ease of use. For example, would it be better to have music in sub directories, by category (ie, Rock/Soul, etc)? What settings on SBS as well as the player are important to maximize performance? Have flac sent wireless, or have it sent as a wav?

[tonyb]

Can't comment on the SB Steve, since I am a Sonos user, but damn glad to see you jumping in head first. Don't know how you intend to use it, but for me, I use a cheap avr that has A-B speaker switching upstairs so I can use one source for both kitchen speakers and outside speakers. The cullen modded unit sits in the HT rig downstairs and one controller plays any zone, upstairs or down. I imagine you want to play it on those Carbon 7's by way of the benchmark. Given any thought as to the outside speakers ? Nothing beats sitting outside with a controller, a bunch of guests and some cocktails, thumbing through the music.

[steveinaz]

Method will be wireless from my Motorola Surfboard broadband modem, via my Asus laptop/800GB USB HDD; into my main rig. The touch will be connected via dig coax into the Benchmark.

I already have a patio/pool rig setup outside.

[heiney9]

Congrats Steve,

First you need to decide on a ripping program. I still highly recommend dB Poweramp. I believe they have a 30 day trial. Your file/directory structure should be simple and once you decide you simply make sure those settings are in your ripping program. In the SQB software you can set what info you want to display as in track number, artist, album, etc. I have chosen to arrange my artists last name, first name this setting is made in the ripping software.

FLAC and WAV are two different types if files. WAV files can't have an ID3 tag embedded so you don't want to use WAV because there will be no information displayed on the SQB. FLAC is what you want to use. I can't stress enough to make sure your files have the proper ID3 tags which are done at the ripping stage, if they don't, the display information is missing and then it's out of place in your music directory and it will be very hard to find when you want to listen to it.

My directory structure is simple

Root is named "Music Server"

then there is a folder for each artist

then a folder for each album

this is how you want to store your music. As far as subcategories like rock, soul etc let the SQB software do that for you, but be sure when you are ripping you fill in the "genre" field so it can be embedded in the ID3 tag, then the SQB software allows you listen to a certain genre from your listening chair.

This is why you should stick with one ripping program and really learn it. If the music you have already ripped didn't have "genre" field filled in you can go back and manually add it. But you can see it's better to get it right the first time. In fact you can go back at any time and edit the ID3 tags, but if you have a lot of music you can see it's better to think it out ahead of time. Also be aware that when the ripping program pulls the tagging information automatically it only fills in the fields that the person who uploaded the information filled in. Occasionally you may have to manipulate the data in each field.

As example; when pulling the info in there are times when the title of the song is in all CAPS, I always change those manually before I rip the cd. Sometimes titles are misspelled, I manually fix those. Sometimes they don't have track numbers so I fix that, etc, etc, As part of the album title I always indicate if it's a remaster or MFSL, etc.

As example this is how the field "album" would look in dB Powermap prior to ripping. Rumors (remaster) or Tumbleweed Connection (MFSL). When db Power amp pulls in the tagging information it will just show the title in the field and I manually add the rest of the identifying info for my own purposes.

Tumbleweed Connection is by Elton John. Depending on how the database provided the ID3 tag info ,the artist field will probably show Elton John. I arrange my artists as John, Elton so I would manually edit that field.

This is why deciding on a standard method for tagging is important from the very beginning to create absolute consistency. If you forget to change Elton John to John, Elton then it's stored differently in another folder and you can see the confusion it can cause if you are searching for it to listen to. You can do it anyway you want, just be consistent

Another area you need to decide is for artists with numbers in their name 10,000 Maniacs or Ten Thousand Maniacs. I prefer the former. I don't believe "the" and "a" are used for indexing. The Beatles shows under "B" not under "T" So if you were searching for artists that start with "B" The Beatles will be there as a choice.

This is all I can think of now, be sure and head over to the Squeezebox forums because I'm sure they have some stickies to help get you started.

It's not complicated, you just need to think about what information you want in the ID3 tag when you are ripping and then which of that info you want displayed on the SQB. Just because you fill in all the fields doesn't mean you have to display that info on the SQB, but it's there for later if you want to use it.

Hope this helps......it's less complicated verbalizing it than it is trying to write it out. What computer are you using? Make sure whatever HD you are using it has enough space for future music because the music has to stay in one dedicated folder, it can't be scattered over multiple drives because the SQB software only looks in the directory you specify.

H9

[heiney9]

So if I understand the only thing hard wired is the ethernet cable into your wireless modem? The computer has to be running with the SQB software when you want to listen to your library. The only other time you need the computer is for ripping files and updating those files to your directory. Otherwise the computer sits idle. Is this what you are thinking? Or are you thinking it needs to be plugged into the rig somehow and you need it with you to run everything?

The other cool thing is all the internet radio that is available, you don't need the computer on for this since it streams radio wirelessly from your modem.

My dedicated PC for my music server is in the basement.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

There was some good discussion in a thread a while back that may help you. I have a process that I use that works 100%, also described in this thread:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?115652-Consistent-tagging-of-digital-music-is-impossible!&highlight=folder

[steveinaz]

So if I understand the only thing hard wired is the ethernet cable into your wireless modem? The computer has to be running with the SQB software when you want to listen to your library. The only other time you need the computer is for ripping files and updating those files to your directory. Otherwise the computer sits idle.

I have RG-6 coming into my cable modem (Motorola Surfboard "n"). My Asus laptop w/external 800GB USB HDD is were all my music is located. I'll be communicating with the touch via wireless. (The office is where my computer/modem are; main rig is in the livingroom).

[steveinaz]

There was some good discussion in a thread a while back that may help you. I have a process that I use that works 100%, also described in this thread:

Looks like you have decided to group albums under genre directories? I was thinking that might make navagation easier; especially with categories like Christmas music, which alot of times gets tagged as "folk."

It's alot easier to asks people who are actually doing this--rather than trying to "guess" at how it will work. I won't obcess over tag info/art, but I do want a logical directory structure.

In my CD collection dBase I have categories:

Rock
Popular
R&B
Jazz
Country Western
Classical
Holiday
Misc

[heiney9]

Looks like you have decided to group albums under genre directories? I was thinking that might make navagation easier; especially with categories like Christmas music, which alot of times gets tagged as "folk."

It's alot easier to asks people who are actually doing this--rather than trying to "guess" at how it will work. I won't obcess over tag info, I do want a logical directory structure.

In my CD collection dBase I have categories:

Rock
Popular
R&B
Jazz
Country Western
Classical
Holiday
Misc

Steve, you do need to obsess over the tags in the beginning so you get it correct and consistent. If you don't fill in the "genre" field when tagging then you can't group/search for a genre when listening. Like I said, depending on who provided the database info you pull off freedb, etc all the fields may not be pre-filled correctly. As always current music you already have ripped can be manually changed (the ID3 tag) to add and delete whatever tag info you want.

If for instance you rip files and don't add a track number, when you pull it up to listen on the SQB, there will be no track number. So if you know track 6 is your favorite on a certain cd it makes it much more difficult to access track 6 because many times w/o a track number it arranges the songs in that particular album alphabetically not in the cd running order, which is based on track numbers. This is why I say you need to obsess a little bit in the beginning over getting the tags proper before ripping large amounts of music. Again, you can go back after the fact and edit the tags, but it a PITA if you have a lot if music to correct. That's why it''s best to get it right at the time of ripping.

H9

P.s. ID3 tags are the life blood of managing a digital library. The SQB simply reads what's on the tags, if it's not there or isn't consistent you will have some difficulties. If you forget to add a genre tag to Mel Torme's - Christmas Songs, you then tell the SQB to show you Christmas music (based on genre) that will not show up as a choice. Now if you search for "Mel Torme" all his selections will show up.

[steveinaz]

I do corrections at ripping, but some of the genere labels are hokey. Won't the touch be displaying your library with full song titles?

How involved is tag editing with MediaMonkey? Is it something you can explain here?

[heiney9]

Also, you DON'T organize by genre in the root directory. The best way is as I showed you.

Main directory
Artist
Album.

When you get the tags right then you can organize at the point of listening. Let the SQB and it's software do all the work at the point of playback.

H9

[steveinaz]

Brock, are you sending wireless the .wav (computer does the lifting), or are you letting the touch unfold the flac file?

[mdaudioguy]

I do corrections at ripping, but some of the genere labels are hokey.
I totally got sick of all the crazy genre and sub-genre designations that people come up with. After all, some artists mix genres, while others define them. Some transcend genres altogether. Do whatever feels right to you. I chose to eliminate that field completely. I never organized my albums that way when they were vinyl or CD...

[heiney9]

I do corrections at ripping, but some of the genere labels are hokey. Won't the touch be displaying your library with full song titles?

How involved is tag editing with MediaMonkey? Is it something you can explain here?

As to your first question, yes if the full title is in the ID3 tag, longer titles may have to scroll across the SQB screen so keep that in mind if you are adding a bunch of stuff to the title.

second question, MM is super easy and I use that for all my tag editing after the fact. Sometimes I forget to change the artist name Last, First so I can go into MM and correct it.

H9

[heiney9]

The thing about using the genre tag is so many artists can be more than one genre so you have to be consistent. You can't tag Jimi Hendrix as Blues genre one time and Classic rock genre another time because if you search for either genre selection one will be missing from your search. It makes sense for Christmas music. How do you classify Jewel? Rock, Folk, Vocal, etc. I am not sure if multiple genre tags are supported, IIRC, they are not.

H9

[SCompRacer]

Steve, a couple of screen shots showing two MM track properties fields. You can be as detailed as you wish. I've never gone past the basic tagging.

[steveinaz]

So, when a device like a squeezebox is displaying info such as Album title; is it getting this info from what you've named the folder, or is it getting it from the tag?

[SCompRacer]

After you get done ripping and tagging, the Squezzebox software scans your music folder and looks at the tags.

[markmarc]

Out of curiosity has Logitech solved the problem with using an outboard USB drive directly into the Touch? I've read on various forums that for whatever reason, its performance in that configuration was messy, to say the least.

[heiney9]

So, when a device like a squeezebox is displaying info such as Album title; is it getting this info from what you've named the folder, or is it getting it from the tag?

The tag, the tag, the tag. Doesn't matter how you label it in Windows, those don't carry over at all. All the info is embedded in the ID3 tag.

H9

[heiney9]

Out of curiosity has Logitech solved the problem with using an outboard USB drive directly into the Touch? I've read on various forums that for whatever reason, its performance in that configuration was messy, to say the least.

It is sluggish and messy. That was put there as a convenience it was never meant as a way to manage and run a full music server. If friends brought tracks over on a jump drive, etc.

H9

[falconcry72]

The tag, the tag, the tag. Doesn't matter how you label it in Windows, those don't carry over at all. All the info is embedded in the ID3 tag.

H9

What if you have files within the root directory that don't have any tags?

[falconcry72]

Make sure whatever HD you are using it has enough space for future music because the music has to stay in one dedicated folder, it can't be scattered over multiple drives because the SQB software only looks in the directory you specify.

What if your root directory contains shortcuts to folders on other drives?

[heiney9]

What if you have files within the root directory that don't have any tags?

Then if you happen to run across it on the SQB the screen just shows 1. track 1, 2. track 2, 3. track 3......etc. It would be found under "no artist" when you are searching.

You can have shortcuts to the root directory so you can play your music via the computer, but once you set the file path in the SQB software when you initially set it up, if you change it or send music to another directory, that music will never register with the SQB because it only looks in the directory you tell it to.

H9

[steveinaz]

Thanks all, appreciate your patience. I cleaned up all my tags (so far), but still have 70% of my cd's to rip.

I'm already getting excited, ran my other coax today, prepping for the SBT. If you ever saw my cable management, you'd know that this is a project in itself.

BRING IT.

[EndersShadow]

Thanks all, appreciate your patience. I cleaned up all my tags (so far), but still have 70% of my cd's to rip.

I'm already getting excited, ran my other coax today, prepping for the SBT. If you ever saw my cable management, you'd know that this is a project in itself.

BRING IT.

But always clean looking. Looking forward to pics

[steveinaz]

10-4, roger wilco, will do; as soon as this "hi-fi heretic" device arrives.

[EndersShadow]

10-4, roger wilco, will do; as soon as this "hi-fi heretic" device arrives.

I think you will really enjoy the convienience of it all. Plus once everything is digital distribution to other zones is much easier

[heiney9]

Thanks all, appreciate your patience. I cleaned up all my tags (so far), but still have 70% of my cd's to rip.

I'm already getting excited, ran my other coax today, prepping for the SBT. If you ever saw my cable management, you'd know that this is a project in itself.

BRING IT.

Here is my cable management. It's worse since moving to the Shotguns since the network boxes are bigger. Cell phone pics

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/215274_222860477730465_100000195436268_1090074_352 6457_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/216441_222868604396319_100000195436268_1090174_499 9412_n.jpg

[tonyb]

I think once Steve gets up and running with the SB, he needs to throw a party. The wife's been nagging me for an excuse to hit up Arizona again, though we like Sedona....way north, and Steve is south.

[steveinaz]

Sedona is beautiful, about a 4hr drive for us. Sierra Vista is quite nice as well--not at all like the desert you would expect. Love to have you guys out.

[falconcry72]

good post

reported.

[heiney9]

Steve, you only need one other thing.

http://www.welbornelabs.com/squeeze.htm

The wallwart that comes with the Touch is of the switching type and it IS a weak link. We all have the Welborne Labs unit and there is a difference. For true high end performance it is $$$ very well spent.

H9

[steveinaz]

I've been researchng that, they're discounted right now too. Once I'm certain that the SB stays, I'll pick one up.

[steveinaz]

ripping......and ripping.....and ripping.....an.............

[steveinaz]

Touch will be here Wednesday. Anyone run their USB HDD directly into the touch?

[heiney9]

Touch will be here Wednesday. Anyone run their USB HDD directly into the touch?

I have never gotten it to work, and you don't have anywhere near the flexibility of features. It's slow, cumbersome and a poor compared to doing it with a proper PC. The USB was really added as a convenience for a thumb drive/jump drive if someone brought some music over,etc. It was never intended or marketed to run a full HD and manage your music. There is a guy on here doing that, but since he is new to the SQB I doubt he realizes how much better (and it's a lot better) it is to run it from a PC rather than the USB.

I wouldn't even consider it Steve.

H9

[steveinaz]

Surprising, you'd think a direct connection/dedicated USB drive would simplify things. Hmm.

[heiney9]

Surprising, you'd think a direct connection/dedicated USB drive would simplify things. Hmm.

Yes, but the processing power needed would push the price to probably double or more as well as the physical size of the unit. See the Logitech Transporter at over $1K for something like that, or some of there other very expensive (comparatively) all in one units.

It is strictly designed as an excellent wireless interphase between a PC and your audio rig to manage a music database.

How would you get your music on the HD? You'd have to unhook it all the time, etc. How would you re-tag stuff?

H9

[steveinaz]

True. It looks as though (from researching) the following will will "help" with successful implementation:

1. USB HDD that is self powered
2. Fat32/Fat16 formatting
3. Use only 1 partition
4. Remove any software that isn't media from drive
5. You'll still be limited to 100 playlists

My particular drive (Western Digital MyBook) meets all of the above (Fat32). I may try it for ****s n grins--not a big deal either way.

[heiney9]

I may try it for ****s n grins--not a big deal either way.

Sure, explore all it has to offer. I never did get it to work properly with a thumb drive. My brother tried it with an HD once and it was not too good. I think you'll find as your library increases it becomes less and less of an option. Everytime you add new music you have to have the drive scanned so the SQB software can update the song library. It takes FOREVER if you do it from the USB directly from the Touch using a HD. Literally hours if you have a sizeable catalog of music. So it's not just the streaming part of the equation.

H9

[steveinaz]

Next questions; this pup comes today, so I'm trying to do some final prep:

1. Where do I find the option to have *.flac files converted to PCM at the server (sent wirelessly as Wav/PCM).

2. Secondly---MySqueezebox---Is the purpose of the web interface strictly for internet music; or otherwise non-local music sources?

3. Finally---Logitech media Server (AKA SB Server)---are there any critical settings I should be checking/changing to optimize fidelity? In my case, I will be going wireless to the touch, then digitally into my DAC.

Rip update; I'm about 35% thru my CD library. man this is a slow process. Thank god I only have about 325 CD's. I'm also thinning the herd a bit--something I've been meaning to do for a long time--If it hasn't been listened to in the last 5 years, it ain't getting ripped...LOL.

[heiney9]

Why do you want to do that Steve? If you send WAV files they have no ID3 tags which means you will see no information on screen. WAV files don't support ID3 tags, never have and probably never will.

What is the fascination with WAV files for people?

H9

[heiney9]

Properly ripped FLAC files are indentical to a WAV file, but are much easier to manage both with ID3 content and size. Why take the time to rip to FLAC just to convert back to WAV? AM I missing something here? Why make it so complicated?

H9

[heiney9]

Rip update; I'm about 35% thur my CD library. man this is a slow process.

My brother is approaching owning 10,000 cds. It has taken him 6-7 years, running (as he buys new cd's weekly). His initial ripping session when he started this 6-7 years ago was about 2 years to add what he'd already owned. An extreme case for sure, but yes, it takes some time in the beginning. We even thought of a business opportunity to charge people who didn;t have the time to rip their cds for them. In fact we have a friend who paid someone to do it for him.

H9

[steveinaz]

Maybe I'm not saying it correctly---I want the flac files "unzipped" on the fly by the server, rather than putting the load on TinySB on the touch to do the decoding. I've heard that this can be a better option to reduce "horsepower" required by the touch.

Wav isn't the right term, PCM is probably more correct.

Better explanation here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82624.20

[heiney9]

Maybe I'm not saying it correctly---I want the flac files "unzipped" on the fly by the server, rather than putting the load on TinySB on the touch. I've heard that this can be a better option to reduce "horsepower" required by the touch.

Never heard that before, never had an issue. Where did you read this? And yes, you were saying it incorrectly. :cheesygrin::razz: WAV files have nothing to do with it. Converting at the SQB is not an issue and the "load" is minimal and should affect nothing. I've never had a hiccup or drop-out that wasn't a glitch in my wireless router. I do know DKG999 was running several as in about 6 wireless devices at one time and he did get the SQB to "bog" down as well as the other devices.

Otherwise, it's never been an issue.

H9

[steveinaz]

It may be one of those tweaks that is much ado about nothing--I don't know. Seems to make sense that your server would have more resources/power to do the decoding than the touch--but again it seems kind of controversial among audiophiles. It's discussed quite a bit on a number of forums, most notably at the squeezebox forum under the "Audiophiles" topic header. I know it would be a "robbing peter to pay paul" scenario, as what you save in processing power, you likely give up in wireless bandwidth.

Scroll down that link I posted to the 7th post on that page, a guy gives the settings if you want to try it. Some say it sounds better (streaming PCM), some say horse-hockey, sound familiar? ;)

Would this be akin to "rolling bytes" in Squeezebox land? LOL

[heiney9]

Lol Steve, I see. To be honest I "set it and forget it", a long time ago. The external PS will make a bigger difference I'm sure. Feel free to experiment and report your findings. I am all for improving something. I know some have gone to the complete extreme by disabling the lcd display and other extreme tweaks. I suppose now that we can run this with smart phones the display is less important, but I will never be that "invasive" to the unit and I still like the display and can read it from across the room.

H9

[steveinaz]

Ok Brock, you talked me into this anti-christ of fidelity; your reputation and credibility are on the line. This thing better sound good. The only other persons' advice I have taken was Sean (Zero)--on the Carbon 7's--He scored seriously high on that call, and I realized that he has some good ears on that rather large head.

But, NO PRESSURE man....LOL

[steveinaz]

I think I'll leave well enough alone. We'll run'er stock for a week or 2, and I'll post a review.

[heiney9]

No pressure on me, I am as anal as they come and I research and as am skeptical as they come. I am particular about my main rig and I'm here to tell you, properly implemented being fed properly ripped files and it's superb.

Ask

Ricardo, DKG999 (Doug), SCompRacer (Rich) we are all somewhat snobby audiophiles and the SQB really delivers when two area's are taken care of 1) a high end dac 2) a proper linear PS.

I am not worried in the least :mrgreen:

Also give it a listen with the internal dac's, not too shabby but not like using a real audiophile type dac.

H9

[SCompRacer]

......we are all somewhat snobby audiophiles .....



I'd like to clarify that I resigned a couple years back and just became an audio enthusiast. I think Ricardo turned his card in too. Or offered to....:cheesygrin:

Steve, in all fairness to both sides of the argument, there are some recording engineers that claim they can hear the difference between flac expanded and wav files. Cookie Marenco of Blue Coast Records fame is one of them. I say good listening to anyone that can, and anyone that can't tell the difference.

Oh, BTW, this was all a massive plot engineered by Brock to assimilate you into the Touch.:cheesygrin:

[steveinaz]

I think my wife is more excited than I am, she likes her electronic "doohickies."

Me: Honey, this thing will store all our CD's in a single component.
Her: But it's so small, how would they fit?
Me: Well of course they won't physically go in there....pffffttt
Her: That's not what I meant dickhead, how does it manage to play all our CD's?
Me: Oh, my bad. Well, we'll stream them thru our wireless broadband from the hard drive.
Her: Oh...cool. The whole library, at the click of a remote?
Me: yes ma'am.
Her: you ARE gettin some tonight.
Me: Wicked; I score TWICE.

[SCompRacer]

LOL

My wife loves her smart phone. When she found about the Sqeeze app for it, I lost the total control of my system. She does use it now, more than ever before. She constantly finds something she wants on her ipod. After showing her MediaMonkey, she learned that Itunes really does suck. MM allows us to rip lame mp3 on the fly to any device.

[steveinaz]

Funny you should mention that, Bev is already bugging me to figure out how to convert flac to mp3 for her phone. She has a Verizon Droid.

[heiney9]

I'd like to clarify that I resigned a couple years back and just became an audio enthusiast. I think Ricardo turned his card in too. Or offered to....:cheesygrin:



Oh, BTW, this was all a massive plot engineered by Brock to assimilate you into the Touch.:cheesygrin:

Ok, let's go with "discerning listener's", rather than "snobby audiophile"

Hey, I LOVE this product, how it interphases, and what it's done to increase my listening habits and get more enjoyment from my rig. :lol:

[heiney9]

Steve,

When does the linear power supply arrive? :razz::cheesygrin:

H9

[steveinaz]

Even taking into account the severely limited audio in youtube, I'm impressed nonetheless with the quiet background and tonality of the videos featuring Touch's as sources in high-end systems. Looks promising. I'm far more picky than my rather modest equipment would indicate.

[steveinaz]

Steve,

When does the linear power supply arrive? :razz::cheesygrin:

H9

I'm in the process of increasing my Christmas stocking size/weight capacity; and pampering my lovely wife. Stay tuned....baby steps man, baby steps. :)

[heiney9]

I'm far more picky than my rather modest equipment would indicate.

Join the club............that's me as well.

H9

[SCompRacer]

Ok, let's go with "discerning listener's", rather than "snobby audiophile"

Hey, I LOVE this product, how it interphases, and what it's done to increase my listening habits and get more enjoyment from my rig. :lol:


I'm all in for that!:cheesygrin: You may recall when I first inherited a Bolder modded SB3 from Norm's estate. I just wasn't ready for the media server thing then. Now, you would have to pry the Touch with modded external DAC out of my hands.

Steve, IIRC you need the Gold version of MM to do mp3 on the fly. I downloaded the Jriver demo, installed it and will give it a try. One thing I truly dislike is the learning curve with new software.

I'm somewhat picky too. I started with a box stock DAC and made it better. I will try some other DAC's just to make sure there isn't something I might like better. And I also have my vinyl to 'fiddle' with.:cheesygrin: Before I got to the level of analog I have now, Norm wasn't impressed. Then one day he remarked "Now I hear what all the fuss is about."

[nspindel]

Never heard that before, never had an issue. Where did you read this? And yes, you were saying it incorrectly. :cheesygrin::razz: WAV files have nothing to do with it. Converting at the SQB is not an issue and the "load" is minimal and should affect nothing. I've never had a hiccup or drop-out that wasn't a glitch in my wireless router. I do know DKG999 was running several as in about 6 wireless devices at one time and he did get the SQB to "bog" down as well as the other devices.

Otherwise, it's never been an issue.

H9

Actually, Brock - Steve is correct here. Have a look at this:

http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/11/touch-toolbox-30.html

This is one of soundcheck's recommended practices. The idea being that the Touch is very limited in terms of processing power, and you want it's full processing capabilities dedicated to jitter-reduction. If you stream the flacs to the Touch in flac format, then the music needs to be decompressed within the Touch itself. Instead, you can set SqueezeCenter to stream the flac as pcm, therefore the decompression happens on your server. This doesn't in any way inhibit the display from seeing your tags (although soundcheck recommends turning off the display...), that data is still passed from the server to the Touch just fine. But it does reduce the load on the Touch's processor, at the expense of needing more network bandwidth because you're streaming the uncompressed data. Best to be using wired ethernet between the Touch and your router, rather than wifi, definitely in the case of streaming uncompressed pcm.

I've implemented all of soundcheck's tweaks that he included in toolbox 2.0, except I didn't throttle my server's ethernet down to 100mb. I haven't applied toolbox 3.0 yet, but I need to do a SqueezeCenter upgrade anyway so I'll bite that bullet at the same time. I may try the 100mb tweak when I apply Toolbox 3.0, because my server has two ethernet connections so I can set one up as 100mb and leave it dedicated to Squeezebox streaming (I use the same server for SageTV as well).

For what it's worth, applying these Toolbox 2.0 tweaks did make a noticeable improvement.

[heiney9]

I understand PCM, it's just when WAV was mentioned, that's why I said there would be no ID3 tags. After Steve explained further then I figured out what he meant. I will look into this, like I said, I set it up and haven't really closely followed all the tweaks people have done or recommended.

I appreciate any current tips people have come across. Perhaps I need a refresher on what's been updated in the past couple years. :cool:

[steveinaz]

That blog is one of the areas where I've seen this "tweak" mentioned.

[nspindel]

FYI, I had my Touch modded by Bolder Cable (before I even got it, I had it shipped directly to Wayne). Bolder recommends using all of soundcheck's mods.

That said, the Touch sounds pretty damn good right out of the box, even with the switching power supply. From a sound quality perspective, it's a big step up from the Squeezebox 3. One thing that I read in several reviews was that there is significant improvement in isolation from power supply noise, so although the linear power supply upgrade still offers improvements, it's nowhere near the drastic improvement that the power supply upgrade made with the SB3.

[steveinaz]

I've read that too, that the Touch power supply is not as bad as the SB3s was, so the upgrade isn't nearly as drastic an improvement.

[heiney9]

I've read that too, that the Touch power supply is not as bad as the SB3s was, so the upgrade isn't nearly as drastic an improvement.

To my ears it was very substantial with the linear power supply, the same as the SB3 since I owned that prior to the Touch. The "big step up" comes from better dac's in the Touch vs. the SB3 and a slightly better analog section. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase or build a better power supply. In fact I would insist on it, but then again I've compared the stock to the Welbourne and I would never go back. The switching walwart is pretty much the same for both units.

H9

[heiney9]

I costs quite a bit of money to properly isolate noise from a switching power supply and I doubt at the $299 price point the Touch differs greatly from the SB3 in this area since they use the exact same type of switching walwart.

I had a SB3 w/ a bolder modded ELPAC vs. walwart........big difference

The Touch w/Welbourne labs (same mods essentially as the bolder modded ELPAC) vs. walwart..........big difference. Atleast you can sample the Touch with the supplied supply and later if you get a linear PS you'll have a good baseline for comparison.

H9

[mdaudioguy]

Squeeze Commander (Android app) converts flac to mp3 when downloading from my library to my phone - a cool and convenient feature. Not sure if iPeng supports anything similar.

[heiney9]

Squeeze Commander (Android app) converts flac to mp3 when downloading from my library to my phone - a cool and convenient feature. Not sure if iPeng supports anything similar.

Is that wirelessly? Bluetooth enabled? What Android phone do you have? I know the new Droid Bionic lets you dl stuff via bluetooth from your computer.

[nspindel]

Squeeze Commander (Android app) converts flac to mp3 when downloading from my library to my phone - a cool and convenient feature. Not sure if iPeng supports anything similar.

Yes, it does.

[nspindel]

I costs quite a bit of money to properly isolate noise from a switching power supply and I doubt at the $299 price point the Touch differs greatly from the SB3 in this area since they use the exact same type of switching walwart.

I had a SB3 w/ a bolder modded ELPAC vs. walwart........big difference

The Touch w/Welbourne labs (same mods essentially as the bolder modded ELPAC) vs. walwart..........big difference. Atleast you can sample the Touch with the supplied supply and later if you get a linear PS you'll have a good baseline for comparison.

H9

Oh, don't get me wrong, I haven't even tested it with my own ears, I built a Welborne as well.

[steveinaz]

I'll make Santa pay for my Welborne...preassembled of course..LOL


Of ALL nights, I have to stay late tonight, damit. Carpet cleaning by contractors--should go fast though. Knowing UPS, it'll be 9:30pm before my package arrives...

[nspindel]

You really trust the elves to do the assembly for you ? :razz:

[SCompRacer]

Actually, Brock - Steve is correct here. Have a look at this:

http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/11/touch-toolbox-30.html



It took me longer than 10 minutes of intensive reading and more than 20 minutes max to set it up, but I got soundcheck's Toolbox 3.0 going on my Touch. I have a Welborne PS that this elf assembled powering my Touch and it feeds into a modded Music Hall 25.3 DAC. Running SS out currently on the DAC, which bypasses the tube and all coupling caps. No big changes jumped out at me with some familiar fav tracks, but some subtle improvements were heard. A little smoother, better tonal balance. Myself, I welcome any percentage of improvement. I'll do some critical listening this weekend. Thanks for bringing this up Steve, and thanks nspindel for chiming in.

A nekkid shot of my Welborne labs PS...
http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Misc/ps1.jpg

The modded Music Hall 25.3 DAC with Burson HD op amps, higher quality Fox crystal oscillator (installed after this pic was taken-Thanks Fred!) and Mundorf M-Caps for op amp/tube out coupling. Balanced or SS out goes direct out of the Bursons bypassing the tube/coupling caps.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Music%20Hall%20253%20DAC/mh253close.jpg

[heiney9]

Steve is M.I.A. so I'm guessing his listening session was a success? Or a complete failure, and he hates it :confused::eek::lol:

H9

[steveinaz]

I'm here, did about 4 straight hours of listening yesterday. I want to be fair to the SQB, so I'm gonna try some A/B testing this evening with my CEC. So far, the Touch is a bit of a dual-personality piece; but let me do a ton more listening, confirm some things that I suspect may be skewing my observations.

I had a bit of an ah-ha moment via my wife. Now keep in mind, an audiophile she is not, but in a lot of ways that can be a good thing when it comes to honest opinions (zero placebo). Now, I'm gonna quote her directly---you take it for what it's worth---her statement after listening for awhile with me was this: "It's sounds real nice....not as good as your CD player, but close." That took me aback a little, mostly because I didn't realize how close attention she pays when listening. I then asked her what about the Touch she felt was inferior---interesting, but I won't go into it.

More listening, more music; need to make sure I'm being as objective as possible.

[nspindel]

It took me longer than 10 minutes of intensive reading and more than 20 minutes max to set it up, but I got soundcheck's Toolbox 3.0 going on my Touch.

Oh, for sure - the 10 minutes reading a 20 minutes of work claim is a bit optimistic. Definitely took me longer to apply 2.0, which is why I haven't done any upgrading yet.

[nspindel]

I'm here, did about 4 straight hours of listening yesterday. I want to be fair to the SQB, so I'm gonna try some A/B testing this evening with my CEC. So far, the Touch is a bit of a dual-personality piece; but let me do a ton more listening, confirm some things that I suspect may be skewing my observations.

I had a bit of an ah-ha moment via my wife. Now keep in mind, an audiophile she is not, but in a lot of ways that can be a good thing when it comes to honest opinions (zero placebo). Now, I'm gonna quote her directly---you take it for what it's worth---her statement after listening for awhile with me was this: "It's sounds real nice....not as good as your CD player, but close." That took me aback a little, mostly because I didn't realize how close attention she pays when listening. I then asked her what about the Touch she felt was inferior---interesting, but I won't go into it.

More listening, more music; need to make sure I'm being as objective as possible.

Just remember that like any other piece of gear, it needs break-in time. I let mine go for a few hundred hours before doing any real listening.

After that, if you're still not thinking it's up to the level of your cd player, you can always start modding it :twisted:

[nspindel]

http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/-strse-413/Logitech%2C-Touch%2C-mod%2C-24-dsh-96%2C/Detail

http://welbornelabs.com/squeeze.htm

20% off on the power supply...

[heiney9]

I can say, and I am not at all being defensive, the achilles heal is the power supply. Maybe Rich will re-post the scope image of the sine wave of the walwart and then the linear supply. And of course be sure you have the settings correct. But also more listening is certainly needed. I never honestly evaluate anything for atleast a few months of living with it. I may always have a running commentary, but my true, objective final opinion always comes much later after really giving it a listen.

H9

[nspindel]

Steve, Brock is right about the settings - one wrong setting in SqueezeCenter, and you can have your perfect flacs transcoded to mp3 on the fly by the server without you even being aware.

[steveinaz]

Break-in is exactly one of those things that I want to make sure I'm being fair about, so the listening continues. Also, Brock, I hear you on long term listening, especially with digital sources. The particular (let's call them) tonal signatures I'm hearing, I highly doubt would be power supply related--while PS upgrades can reduce noise, remove some grain, etc., these are "big picture" observations about overall tonal shifts.

But, let me not fall victim to conjecture...more listening! I suspect the A/B testing may (or may not) confirm some things for me.

[heiney9]

I can say of the 5 people I know personally who have these and who's rigs I've listened to, the gap should be minimal to non-existent vs. a very good cdp. If you talking about a top end cdp or something very esoteric then the SQB probably won't sound as good.

If I have time this weekend Steve, I'll try and delve into my settings for Squeeze Center and see if there are some obvious settings that are crucial. I can't promise because between OT at work and the final push to clean gutters and leaves before our first snow-fall here will keep me very busy.

H9

[steveinaz]

Steve, Brock is right about the settings - one wrong setting in SqueezeCenter, and you can have your perfect flacs transcoded to mp3 on the fly by the server without you even being aware.

Well hook me up, what settings should I be verifying?---right now I'm running the Touch bone-stock (except for like wallpaper, screen brightness and that kind of crap). Decoding is being done at the Touch. The only configuration settings I've changed was mapping to my music folder. Everything is in flac, ripped with EAC in secure mode---being sent via wireless.

AGAIN fellas, this is all very premature, on a unit with exactly 5 hours on it. Let me get my listen on some more.

[heiney9]

Break-in is exactly one of those things that I want to make sure I'm being fair about, so the listening continues. Also, Brock, I hear you on long term listening, especially with digital sources. The particular (let's call them) tonal signatures I'm hearing, I highly doubt would be power supply related--while PS upgrades can reduce noise, remove some grain, etc., these are "big picture" observations about overall tonal shifts.

But, let me not fall victim to conjecture...more listening! I suspect the A/B testing may (or may not) confirm some things for me.

Will say adding the PS did in fact have some effect on "tone", it was more subtle than the obvious reduced noise and larger soundstage. Time will tell and if you happen to be one who doesn't care for it, you can flip it very easily.

Keep us posted.

H9

[steveinaz]

Keep in mind, I've been listening to the same source (CEC and Benchmark) for over 7 years. I am keenly (sp?) aware of their every aspect, if you get my meaning. When I insert a new source, differences (if present) are usually apparent--now "differences" should not carry a connotation of meaning "worse"--that's where my observation of the Touch being "dual-personality" comes in.

Do you guys want some specific first impressions?

[heiney9]

I was in the same boat with my dac and source when I started using the SQB II 3-4 years ago, but I didn't notice anything that stood out until I replaced the power supply. In fact I was a skeptic about replacing the PS and I'll be damned if it wasn't an instant, pleasant surprise. If you want to give your first impressions, sure. That way if it changes we'll know.

I completely understand first impressions as being just that, sometimes they stick sometimes they don't.

H9

[nspindel]

Go into your Squezebox Server, then to the Advanced tab, and then set the drop down to File Types. Look for FLAC under File Format, and then you should see a setting for FLAC, MP3, and PCM. Set FLAC to disabled, MP3 to disabled, and PCM to flac. This will force the flac decompression to happen on your server, and ensure that you're not streaming any mp3.

I'd advise that you go into your player settings, and under Audio, set Volume Control to "Output level is fixed at 100%"

I would also advise that you use wired ethernet between your Touch and your router. Having a wifi receiver/transmitter active inside the player can't possibly be helping sound quality. It's not about whether wifi can handle the networking aspect, people making that argument are fools and will also tell you to purchase a $500 ethernet cable. That's nonsense. But reducing RFI is not. Soundcheck's mods, if I remember correctly, actually disables the wifi altogether.

[steveinaz]

Well, I'm thinking it might help as maybe you guys will identify with some of the things I'm observing--

[steveinaz]

I'd advise that you go into your player settings, and under Audio, set Volume Control to "Output level is fixed at 100%"

I would also advise that you use wired ethernet between your Touch and your router.

I did the 100% volume selection already.

Running "wired" is a non-starter. If that's a condition of good sound, the Touch will have to go.

[heiney9]

I have found absolutely no need to run wired. Now a poor performing or old wireless router can cause some issues, I have only noticed it with my ROKU player, not ever with the SQB. Any modern wireless router should be fine unless you are on the fringe of of it's range.

H9

[nspindel]

From all the research I've done, it's a condition for getting the Touch to sound as good as it possibly can. That doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be pleased with how it sounds over wifi, but from the standpoint of eeking out every bit of sq possible, it's a recommended best practice.

Definitely a non-starter? I went and strung up my whole house with wired ethernet several years ago, so I'm spoiled. But I've got about 30 ethernet devices in my home, including hi-def video streaming.

There's really no way for you to get a wire from your stereo to where your router is?

[heiney9]

In fact I want to put my music server computer down in the lower-level and run wireless USB to my wireless router and then wireless to the SQB. Right now my 2nd computer is tethered via Ethernet to my wireless router. It's older and the fan noise in my office is annoying so having it in the semi-finished basement would be a plus. I am still experimenting with running it USB wireless to my router.

H9

[steveinaz]

Ok, here's some initial impressions. Keep in mind this is a new unit with only 5 hours on it. Wireless/flac, into my DAC with a coaxial cable (DH Labs D-75).

The format I use goes like this; As I'm listening I have a notepad, I write down quick "words" that describe something I'm hearing. I later attach my full thought to why I used that "word." Straight from my notes (in order)---and the meanings:

Toslink: The sound reminds me of running toslink. bass is firm and deep, treble somewhat "rounded" black background.

Missing link?: Touch has an analog-like character to it's sound. Not at all harsh. A "full bodied" sound character that reminds me of vinyl.

Rythm/pace: excellent. great flow of the music.

Who's the hero?: This comment comes from me thinking, is the excellent delineation/detail of subtleties a result of music on a hard drive--or the result of something the Touch is doing. I suspect the former.

Veil: Slightly heavier mid bass, a bit of a veiled upper mid range. Treble is real nice, albeit also slightly veiled. Mid-range seems to be set back in the speaker in presenation, and somewhat "muddy" on complex music.

Keep in mind all comparisons would be made in relation to my CEC/DAC combo.

Any of these observations ringing true with any of you guys?

[nspindel]

I have found absolutely no need to run wired. Now a poor performing or old wireless router can cause some issues, I have only noticed it with my ROKU player, not ever with the SQB. Any modern wireless router should be fine unless you are on the fringe of of it's range.

H9

It's not about the networking aspect. It's about eliminating the use of the wifi radio inside the Touch, as well as the power it consumes.

[heiney9]

From all the research I've done, it's a condition for getting the Touch to sound as good as it possibly can. That doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be pleased with how it sounds over wifi, but from the standpoint of eeking out every bit of sq possible, it's a recommended best practice.

Definitely a non-starter? I went and strung up my whole house with wired ethernet several years ago, so I'm spoiled. But I've got about 30 ethernet devices in my home, including hi-def video streaming.

There's really no way for you to get a wire from your stereo to where your router is?

Honestly I've tried it both ways and I hear no difference. And running it wired, for me, defeats part of the purpose. If it were detriment to sound quality for me I'd certainly consider running it wired, but I have seen nothing in print or best of all heard nothing detrimental so I'm not going to bother with it.

[nspindel]

Any of these observations ringing true with any of you guys?

In all honesty, I can't answer that. Observations like these assume you are comparing to something else, and noting the differences. I haven't had a cd player in my stereo in about 8 years. I was using HTPC for a while, and then jumped to Squeezebox before SlimDevices was even bought by Logitech. I really don't have any basis of comparison.

[dkg999]

In my previous setup there was just a slight difference between wireless and wired with my SBT. IMHO wired produced just a bit more dynamic sound. I would opt for wired if possible, but don't believe it's a show-stopper to use wireless. I think you have to do a mod to shut off the wireless radio in the SBT.

[heiney9]

The one area I noticed the most improvement was the things you listed under "Veil". Many of these things improved with the addition of the Welborne Labs supply. I'd say the muddiness, veiled midrange and treble improved markedly with the PS upgrade, bass extension as well. Before the PS upgrade the bass sort of seemed to fall off a shelf. After the PS upgrade the bass was large wave that seemed to roll off more naturally, rather than abruptly being cut short. I haven't used a cdp in about 5 years so I can't say about what or what did not improve when I switched. I can say if the SQB II wasn't up to it back then, I would never have stayed with it.

H9

[steveinaz]

Now to address the "dual personality" comment;

The Touch/HDD combo is STELLAR at retrieving detail--small, tiny, subtle details that I notice right away, and liked very much. There's an up/down side to music that is "full-bodied" the up: it's very satisfying in a visceral manner. The down: It can come off as veiled/rolled off, muddy at times. I can understand the appeal of "Hard Drive" based music. I think it can sound better than an optical drive--at least I believe the potential is there, if the transport can deliver.

The "Ah-ha" moment:

Some of the things Bev said, as to why she felt the Touch was inferior to the CD player were "scary" close to my exact thoughts. Take it for what it's worth.

[tonyb]

Your notes Steve are very close to my own when comparing to a decent redbook cdp. Also, I am in the same boat listening to my cdp I know all the subtle changes. Still working on it though so a final thought is yet to come on digital downloads verse a good cdp. It is however close, and the convenience factor is worth giving up a tad in SQ. Still I want it better for critical listening, and if changing dacs, cables, formats, is what I have to do, I will, eventually.

Don't know about the SB radio, but I enjoy the radio on my Sonos, from just about every country on the planet. I wouldn't get rid of it if radio is something you listen to even slightly.

[steveinaz]

Before the PS upgrade the bass sort of seemed to fall off a shelf. After the PS upgrade the bass was large wave that seemed to roll off more naturally, rather than abruptly being cut short.
H9

Exactly, a very "toslink" sounding bass. It comes off as very tight/flat, but you're not quite sure if it's "accuracy" or simply "lack of" bass extension. This tonal signature didn't bother me much, as the room was still energized during rolling bass notes--very cool.

[steveinaz]

Having said all that, let me say this: The Touch is an excellent device when considering the conveneince factor---I'm being pretty damn picky with it, and maybe expecting too much; but it is LEAPS and BOUNDS beyond anything else such as XM, Sirius, Internet radio (played via other means), IPOD docks (yuk) etc, etc. It's entirely in a different league.

[heiney9]

Your description of the "full-bodied" details, a lot of that goes away with the Welborne PS. Somewhere I started a thread about the Welborne PS when I added or maybe it was the Bolder Modded ELPAC (essentially the same thing and parts, etc).

H9

[heiney9]

Use it as is until the Elves finish the Welborne and then see if some of the "down side" isn't alleviated. It is one mod I can't stress enough and will make a noticeable improvement based on the level of your gear you should notice it right away, like I did.

H9

[nspindel]

And of course, remember that the Welborne will benefit from running a good power cord. I use a Signal Magic Digital with mine.

[heiney9]

And of course, remember that the Welborne will benefit from running a good power cord. I use a Signal Magic Digital with mine.

I use an MIT Z cord, so yes I agree 100%

[steveinaz]

Also guys, keep in mind I'm NOT looking for convenience--per se, other than the element of having all my music available at the touch of a button (pun intended). I'm not looking to "network" my house with this stuff, and I'm not fearing the demise of the silver disc, so preparing by going all software with my media. I'm looking to replace a very good transport (I gain more respect for it everyday); so compromises, even teeny-tiny ones, won't get past these ears. IOW, I'm not cutting the Touch an ounce of slack, nor will I make any excuses for it or my observations. That should actually speak well of this device. Furthermore, I'll go thru a ton of inconvenience, for just a little bit better sound---so you understand my priorities.

The listening continues, I AM NOT giving up the ship yet.

[dkg999]

Steve - you must network your house and be assimilated :twisted:

[heiney9]

I wasn't looking to "network" my house either, but having a wireless radio up stairs which is then portable to take out on the deck (battery pack option) has proven to be off the charts convenient. I have come to hate spinning up those little silver discs anymore. Again I am pretty uncompromising in fidelity, perhaps willing to give up just a tiny ounce of SQ for convenience, but honestly I don't think I am and in the grand scheme, if I was, it's so miniscule as not to really matter.

I also know you understand that different isn't necessarily bad or wrong. It's just different from your norm. The question then becomes can you live with the differences. I have these issues with tubes and I/C's and in the end most of the differences I came to love. In fact one of the reasons I like rolling tubes so much is variety of subtle sound changes you can make and still enjoy different sounds. I have found no other device in audio that subtley changes the soundscape as well as a different tube while still making listening 100% enjoyable at each change.

H9

[nspindel]

Brock, you sprang for the battery pack, eh? I have't brought myself to drop the coin for it.

Using it outdoors rocks though. I have speakers outside on one end of my deck that are connected to my whole-house amp with my SB3. I've also brought the Boom outside and placed it on the other side of the deck and sync'ed the Boom and the SB3, works perfectly. I had a party one time where I had a bunch of people outside, and I had the Boom/SB3 combo sync'ed together, and was controlling it from iPeng on my iPhone. Blew people away with that setup, let me tell you...

[steveinaz]

Exactly Brock, the Touch does nothing "wrong" and does alot of things very well, but so far it's tonal character is a little different from what I'm used to. It's like the chicken and egg thing, which source is being more accurate? I don't know, because I wasn't at the recording studio when they cut the record. But I do know what appeals to me, and that is the REAL bitch about opinions on equipment---our own expectations, and of course system synergy. I'm just passing along what I hear, in relation to what was my source, so apply a grain of salt.

[steveinaz]

Tonight I'm going to configure the server to decode the flac, and see what differences that might bring. I'll also A/B it with the CEC transport, to make sure my ears aren't just on the "fritz" or something. I want to be as fair as possible to the unit. Again, Bev's comments were very "telling" as I usually blame my lame ass hearing when I "think" I detect tonal changes.

Here's the connection scheme:

SQB Touch-->1mtr DH Labs D-75-->Benchmark DAC-->.5mtr Kimber Hero-->Placette Passive-->.5mtr Kimber Hero-->Parasound HCA-1500-->Kimber 8TC-->Carbon 7's.

Benchmark is in "line-out" DAC mode. This is identical to the CEC's connection scheme.

[nspindel]

Tonight I'm going to configure the server to decode the flac, and see what differences that might bring. I'll also A/B it with the CEC transport, to make sure my ears aren't just on the "fritz" or something. I want to be as fair as possible to the unit. Again, Bev's comments were very "telling" as I usually blame my lame ass hearing when I "think" I detect tonal changes.

If I'm not mistaken, I think you need to stop/start the service in order for those changes to take effect. Can't remember 100% though.

[steveinaz]

I'll do a re-start just to be on the safe side.

Do any of you guys have a DVD/BluRay/CD player also connected where you can A/B to see if we have any observations in common?

[nspindel]

Nope!

[heiney9]

You still have a lot of evaluating and listening to do. Thanks for the first impressions and don't give up until you get a linear power supply.

H9

[heiney9]

I'll do a re-start just to be on the safe side.

Do any of you guys have a DVD/BluRay/CD player also connected where you can A/B to see if we have any observations in common?

My DVDp player is hooked to my dac as well. I can certainly try to do some comparo's. It won't be very timely however, since I am so dang busy at work. But I will try to set aside some time in the next couple weeks to do a comparison. I did this before years ago by queuing up both sources and A/Bing.

H9

[steveinaz]

I'm feeling somewhat justified in my findings--check this out, I'm seeing some reports on various forums where people are using the same terms as I "too full sounding" "rolled off treble" and guess what the common denominator is?

The "new" SqueezeBox Media server 7.7

One guy claims after rolling back to an earlier version, his sound "greatly improved"--now take THAT with a grain of salt, but it makes me wonder.

[steveinaz]

Don't know about the SB radio, but I enjoy the radio on my Sonos, from just about every country on the planet. I wouldn't get rid of it if radio is something you listen to even slightly.

The SQBT internet radio feature is very cool, and sounds (to me) far better than XM/Sirius. Much more depth, less of a compressed sound. Sounds much more like the "FM" of old, played on a very good tuner.

[nspindel]

Steve, just noticed that you've got the Touch listed in your sig now. NICE!

[nspindel]

I'm feeling somewhat justified in my findings--check this out, I'm seeing some reports on various forums where people are using the same terms as I "too full sounding" "rolled off treble" and guess what the common denominator is?

The "new" SqueezeBox Media server 7.7

One guy claims after rolling back to an earlier version, his sound "greatly improved"--now take THAT with a grain of salt, but it makes me wonder.


Mmmmm, maybe I won't be updating after all. I'm still on 7.6:cool:

[falconcry72]

So is the SQB's playback software bit-perfect? We always talk about bit-perfect playback modes like ASIO and WASAPI with PC rigs that use USB>SPDIF converters or USB DAC's, but I never here about it with the SQB.

I would imagine that our Polkie of the Year will chime in on this!:cheesygrin:

[nspindel]

Yes, it is.

Sorry, didn't mean to steal any of the mighty Polkie's thunder!

[steveinaz]

He's probably trying to fit his head thru the door way....LOL

[steveinaz]

Mmmmm, maybe I won't be updating after all. I'm still on 7.6:cool:

Well, who knows if there's any truth to it---and then you always have that nagging feeling of "what great things is this update gonna do [/sarcasm]" going on. man this hobby is stressful.

I warned you guys that I was a fussy bastard.

[nspindel]

I'm a lot more interested in checking out soundcheck's toolbox 3.0, actually. Upgrading to 7.7 was just a "might as well" but wouldn't be the first squeezecenter upgrade I've skipped. Maybe I'll just pop toolbox 3.0 on top of 7.6 and call it a day.

[nspindel]

Steve, btw, did you ever mention if you have an iSomething to run iPeng? That app is just a must have once you have a squeezie.

[steveinaz]

This is curious, note this info from a forum:

Big improvements with the Squeezebox can be gotten by:
- direct wiring to router
- running coaxial to a stand alone dac (in windows control panel go to manage audio devices make sure to set volume on your computer to 100, disable all sound effects under enhancements, set bit rate to 24/96 and check the two exclusive mode boxes. Also make sure to mute the sound on your computer.

Looking at the second point about your computer being turned up to 100...is this true? Why would this affect digital output? I know for a fact that my laptop (hosting Media Server) is not turned up to 100, nor have I made any settings in Control Panel>audio devices. Should I have?

[heiney9]

Streaming doesn't have anything at all to do with the Windows Audio Settings. As much as I like a good forum, I'm not sure some people know what they are talking about. If you were using your computer for sound, like I do for my office rig, then the settings highlighted above should be followed. But for using the SQB with the SQB softrware hard wired to your router or not, the above has no bearing on it.

H9

[nspindel]

Don't believe everything you read... Windows audio settings on the server are irrelevant to Squeezebox playback.

[FTGV]

Why would this affect digital output?Data loss.Volume reduction in the digital domain requires bits to be thrown away lowering resolution.However running ASIO or WASAPI modes bypass any windows volume control etc.


You gents with the Touch's need to ditch the cheesy RCA digital output con for a true 75 ohm BNC.

[nspindel]

See, I could have been Polkie of the Year! But no.... Mr Tube Roller gets it instead.... That contest was rigged :)

[steveinaz]

Steve, btw, did you ever mention if you have an iSomething to run iPeng? That app is just a must have once you have a squeezie.

I'm just using the standard remote at the moment. Once I determine the SQB is staying, then I'll look at fuzzy dice, and a cool license late frame...LOL

[steveinaz]

Streaming doesn't have anything at all to do with the Windows Audio Settings. As much as I like a good forum, I'm not sure some people know what they are talking about. If you were using your computer for sound, like I do for my office rig, then the settings highlighted above should be followed. But for using the SQB with the SQB softrware hard wired to your router or not, the above has no bearing on it.H9

Cool. I just want to make sure I'm not screwing up on my end.

[heiney9]

Steve, you are starting to drive yourself crazy with all the information, much like I do to myself. My Dad calls it "paralysis or analysis", guilty as charged. Many of the tips that are actually relevant are going to make minscule improvements, but you have to get a handle on what's legit and what's not. The set-up is pretty basic so as long as you aren't doing something sillyy like converting FLAC to MP3 accidentially all the tweaking shouldn't make a huge difference, IMO.

I also can't for the life of me figure out why a newer version of the SQB software would alter the sound. That's like saying the new version of Turbo Tax has deeper screen colors. It's software management and I'm sure the upgrades have to do with operating efficiencies not SOUND. The SQB software has little to nothing to do with sound manipulation.

H9

[steveinaz]

Nah, just second-guessing myself because my results seem to be pretty different from others. Just want to make sure I'm implementing this thing properly, and giving it the benefit of the doubt. Apparently, I'm doing it right.

[nspindel]

Steve, you are starting to drive yourself crazy with all the information, much like I do to myself. My Dad calls it "paralysis or analysis", guilty as charged. Many of the tips that are actually relevant are going to make minscule improvements, but you have to get a handle on what's legit and what's not. The set-up is pretty basic so as long as you aren't doing something sillyy like converting FLAC to MP3 accidentially all the tweaking shouldn't make a huge difference, IMO.

I also can't for the life of me figure out why a newer version of the SQB software would alter the sound. That's like saying the new version of Turbo Tax has deeper screen colors. It's software management and I'm sure the upgrades have to do with operating efficiencies not SOUND. The SQB software has little to nothing to do with sound manipulation.

H9

As for the first paragraph, couldn't agree more. The important thing is to make sure you're streaming either PCM or FLAC, not mp3. Other than that, if you're not stepping up your power supply yet then I think the only other thing you really need to worry about is breaking the thing in. Turn your amp and preamp off when you're not listening and just let the thing play in a loop for a week.

As for the software, it definitely can make a difference. It's not so much the server software itself that matters, but rather the firmware updates that get applied to the Touch. They're always making little tweaks here and there, some of them have backfired. There have been several cases over the years where a new firmware version has degraded sound quality, and it ends up fixed in a subsequent release. Bugs in their firmware can degrade sound quality just as soundcheck's software mods can help.

[heiney9]

The way we are streaming it and outputting it to a dac I'm not sure I agree 100% about software making a difference. I could see if you were using the SQB w/o an external dac and contolling the audio via the remote, but then again I am not software guru so I am not 100% qualified to comment accurately. I know I keep updating when prompted and I haven't noticed any degredation in sound in all the time I've had it.

I also agree all the tweaking now, while certainly worthwile, may not reap any rewards until the power supply issue is dealt with. It's really that critical, especially since you are so "picky" (your words and not meant to be negative because I am the same way) about the output of the unit.

H9

[SCompRacer]

Do any of you guys have a DVD/BluRay/CD player also connected where you can A/B to see if we have any observations in common?

Yes, a ModWright Sony 9100ES. Don't let the tube output fool you, this is closer to SS sounding than a typical tube output. Extremely low distortion, although Roger Sanders when testing it told me I spent thousands to ruin a perfectly good CD player. It would cost me $800 for a digital in mod to my Sony to find out if I get the same results as with popping a CD in.

I had contacted Dan a while back about me slapping a digital in mod to it like I've seen done with other CD players, but got the 'You see, Timmy' explanation. Fred is another one who ruins easy solutions with pertinent facts.:cheesygrin: Dan added another clock to his digital in (although it has the uber clock he installed with his mod) and some other stuff which increased the price. Anyway, maybe I compromised a bit in the beginning with convenience overtaking SQ, but that didn't last long. In the end, you will decide if it is good enough for you, and nobody's words or experiences will convince you otherwise.

[steveinaz]

Rich,
If I had to sum up quickly--the sound is soft and unfocused. The mids almost sound "congested" on complex material; almost the way that overly hot cd's sound (dynamics squashed). A generally "veiled" presentation. The detail is there, just veiled. A rather "blah" overall tonal character.

[nspindel]

Two words: Power Supply.

[heiney9]

Rich,
If I had to sum up quickly--the sound is soft and unfocused. The mids almost sound "congested" on complex material; almost the way that overly hot cd's sound (dynamics squashed). A generally "veiled" presentation. The detail is there, just veiled. A rather "blah" overall tonal character.

I know I may have mentioned this before.............but

http://www.welbornelabs.com/squeeze.htm

Will get rid of everything you describe.

No personal experience with this, but generally get high marks

http://ciaudio.com/products/VDCSB






:lol::eek::biggrin::cool:

H9

[steveinaz]

Ah-ha, so you guys have had similar performance! LOL, dammit I knew my ears weren't broken. :cheesygrin:

You all are just testing me huh? (Let's see if Steve says the stock SQ is awesome...hehe). Bastads. Alright, alright I have assimilated the secret handshake; initiation complete, the pleeb is accepted, thank you sir may I have another?----I get it. LOL

[nspindel]

No. You haven't been paddled yet.

[heiney9]

Steve, I never really found the SQB lacking all that much with the walwart, that is until I compared it with a proper linear power supply. But much of what you mentioned was improved, although I'm not sure it was initially as lacking and "dull" as you seem to hear. But all this is really premature until you get some serious hours on it and see if your impression changes.

H9

[steveinaz]

EUREKA!
On a hunch, I deleted and reloaded Logitech Media Server. We're golden. I don't know if I screwed up a setting, misconfigured something, etc; but now we're rocking as expected. I did a quick a/b with a couple CD's I had ripped, and I'm struggling to hear any differences.

There we go.....

I don't know what I did, and I was trying to be somewhat diplomatic---but this thing sounded like ass. Maybe I was streaming flac as mp3 or something. At any rate, I'm feeling much better about this purchase. Had you suckers scared huh? :cheesygrin:

[Drenis]

So you need to buy an additional PS to reap the benefits of this device? My gosh... $300 for the SQB and $200+ US for the power supply.... WOW... with taxes and shipping... its apparent that listening to music is to much money. No wonder us poor people stick to the crap we have to listen to our tunes.

[SCompRacer]

EUREKA!
On a hunch, I deleted and reloaded Logitech Media Server. We're golden. I don't know if I screwed up a setting, misconfigured something, etc; ...

Just as I suspected, user error!:cheesygrin: Stuff happens. Good call on the software reload.

[nspindel]

I'm struggling to figure out what you could have possibly done here, but.... If it's working now then carry on!

[mdaudioguy]

So you need to buy an additional PS to reap the benefits of this device? My gosh... $300 for the SQB and $200+ US for the power supply.... WOW... with taxes and shipping... its apparent that listening to music is to much money. No wonder us poor people stick to the crap we have to listen to our tunes.
Absolutely not! I'm so glad my ears aren't so trained and/or as sensitive as some... I never had an audiophile-quality CDP, nor probably the rest of the gear. Out of the box, the squeezebox products are probably fit for 99% of the population. These guys here are the elite 1%! :wink::biggrin:

[heiney9]

Data loss.Volume reduction in the digital domain requires bits to be thrown away lowering resolution.However running ASIO or WASAPI modes bypass any windows volume control etc.


You gents with the Touch's need to ditch the cheesy RCA digital output con for a true 75 ohm BNC.

All true, but that's if you are using a USB or digital output of a PC not when streaming to the Touch, there are no plug ins or WASPI, ASIO settings needed.

[Sherardp]

Looking at an upgrade for my Touch. What do you guys think about the Sbooster products ? Also found this power supply that looked pretty good.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logitech-Squeezebox-Touch-Upgraded-Power-Supply-5Vdc-3A-/300600186374?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fd2ad606

http://www.squeeze-upgrade.com/philosophy-behind-sbooster-concept-pm-29.html

[Drenis]

Absolutely not! I'm so glad my ears aren't so trained and/or as sensitive as some... I never had an audiophile-quality CDP, nor probably the rest of the gear. Out of the box, the squeezebox products are probably fit for 99% of the population. These guys here are the elite 1%! :wink::biggrin:

I'm the same, in all aspects. But it makes me very depressed that I've never heard a proper source. I honestly don't know what I'm missing for sound different from what I know of 128-320 kpbs mp3's to this lossless flac format. Hell I don't even know what a CD sounds like because my CDP is the optical drive in my HTPC (Sony PS2 prior out the analogs). This "hobby" really frustrates me because I feel as if I've spent thousands of dollars that took years to dedicate and it was all a joke.

Wow I'm cranky... I need some rum.

[heiney9]

So you need to buy an additional PS to reap the benefits of this device? My gosh... $300 for the SQB and $200+ US for the power supply.... WOW... with taxes and shipping... its apparent that listening to music is to much money. No wonder us poor people stick to the crap we have to listen to our tunes.

Yes, if you are looking for the best possible performance. Don't forget a dac to bring the total to a cool $1K or more :twisted:. It's worth every penny, IMO.

H9

[steveinaz]

Let the ripping continue! You power supply elves....GET BUSY!

[heiney9]

EUREKA!
On a hunch, I deleted and reloaded Logitech Media Server. We're golden. I don't know if I screwed up a setting, misconfigured something, etc; but now we're rocking as expected. I did a quick a/b with a couple CD's I had ripped, and I'm struggling to hear any differences.

There we go.....

I don't know what I did, and I was trying to be somewhat diplomatic---but this thing sounded like ass. Maybe I was streaming flac as mp3 or something. At any rate, I'm feeling much better about this purchase. Had you suckers scared huh? :cheesygrin:

Next time don't be so diplomatic and we'll get you the answer you need sooner :cheesygrin::lol:

[Drenis]

Yes, if you are looking for the best possible performance. Don't forget a dac to bring the total to a cool $1K or more :twisted:. It's worth every penny, IMO.

H9

Try telling my other half that. I've tried to explain and I get the eye... she argues how I spent $800 on a HTPC that was supposed to do everything but for me to say I was wrong, well that's not her problem. I'm not allowed to buy anymore audio for the rest of the year.. :( She loves the hobby but not the debt from it.

[heiney9]

If it matters Steve I was trying to be diplomatic by not calling you a nut job about what you were hearing =Lol :lol:

[steveinaz]

Touche. LOL

[brgman]

Steve, btw, did you ever mention if you have an iSomething to run iPeng? That app is just a must have once you have a squeezie.

Please elaborate.There is a free app control for the touch.What makes this $9.99 well spent?

[SCompRacer]

The one from Taiwan looks like a nice build. I have no experience with either. IIRC you get two chassis color choices from Welborne.:cheesygrin:


Looking at an upgrade for my Touch. What do you guys think about the Sbooster products ? Also found this power supply that looked pretty good.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logitech-Squeezebox-Touch-Upgraded-Power-Supply-5Vdc-3A-/300600186374?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fd2ad606

http://www.squeeze-upgrade.com/philosophy-behind-sbooster-concept-pm-29.html

[FTGV]

The one from Taiwan looks like a nice build. Agreed Rich it looks to be a nicely executed design.

[Sherardp]

Thanks guys I'll give it a shot and see how it does.

[nspindel]

Actually you are right, looks like now there is a free controller app from Logitech, that must be relatively new. At one point iPeng was the only app around. The big thing that iPeng will let you do that the Logitech app won't is that it actually becomes a Squeezebox player as well (although you do have to pay a couple bucks more for that). So if you open the right ports on your router and forward them to your server, you can actually stream your whole music collection to your phone. I barely put music on my iPhone any more because I just stream it through iPeng. It uses your data plan, of course, but I have wifi at work.

[mdaudioguy]

Having used all the apps, iPeng (iPhone) and Squeeze Commander (Android) both just seem to have a nicer interface than the Logitech app, but you do have to pay a few dollars for them...

[brgman]

I'll give it a whirl.what the hell.

[Sherardp]

I use Squeezepad App with excellent results.

[nspindel]

Checked out the Logitech app. Limited functionality compared to iPeng. I can't even program the alarm clock on the Squeezebox Radio with it - total deal killer for me. Yes, seriously :lol: Plus, the ability to use your iDevice as a Squeezebox player is such a big advantage over any of the other apps. iPeng is still king.

[steveinaz]

I am really liking this HDD/Touch combo. Detail retrieval in the extreme, extremely smooth quality to the music. I think there is a lot to be said about music via hard drive storage. I suspect the elimination of the optical reading, the method of reading pits, laser servo drives, etc, may point to some interesting theories--this much I do know, I haven't heard data pulled to this "depth" of detail before, and the Touch does an excellent job delivering that stream, unadulterated. I think it comes down to good 'ol simplicty again. Read the data straight from the HDD, rather than jumping thru the many hoops of pulling it from an optical disc.

I can say with confidence, using the SQB Touch via a good DAC, involves NO compromise that I can detect. (assuming lossless files used). If you are sitting on the fence, take it from this fussy bastard, you will not be disappointed. Add to that, street price runs about $240---what do you have to lose? I'm making all these observations with a bone-stock unit; no upgrades, running wireless.

Outstanding. Can't wait to hear some hi-res files thru the Benchmark.

This "technique" is definitely worthy of a power supply upgrade, fuzzy dice, and a cool license plate frame. :mrgreen:

[nspindel]

And a paddling?

[steveinaz]

You betcha, tidey-whities and all.

[heiney9]

Steve, I'm glad you got it figured out and it's working splendidly for you. For a small second you had me questioning my sanity when you weren't getting good results. Because I have never been able to tell the difference between the SQB or my transport.

[nspindel]

Steve next up for you is some 2496 stuff - give that Benchmark of yours a real workout!

[steveinaz]

Whatever reloading the software did, it brought this pup to life--that's for sure. Did a boat load of critical listening early this morning.

I'll defnitely be downloading some hi-res stuff soon. This was one of my motivations for going with the touch/computerized music. My next move will be to replace my BluRay with an Oppo BRP, as I have more confidence in it as a transport for times when I want to spin a disc. The panny will go in our bedroom.

[steveinaz]

Ok fellas
How do I get the touch to just display artist/album, and drop the "year" when looking thru my library?

It looks like this:

Fagen, Donald - 19XX - The Nightfly

I want this:

Fagen, Donald - The Nightfly


Another "oddity" after getting connected, I went ahead and turned my firewall back up "medium" on my modem. The Touch still works fine, but the LMS "diagnostics" shows ports 3483 and 9000 "failed." How can that be? The touch seems to be operating just fine??

[heiney9]

You need to go into the SQB software and fiddle with the display settings and "uncheck" the year. I think that's where you do it.

H9

[nspindel]

Go to the Interface tab in the SqueezeCenter settings. All sorts of customizations you can make, one of which is "Show Year with Albums". Disable that.

As for ports 9000 and 3483, I think you're confusing the settings on your modem with the settings on your server. Blocking 9000 and 3483 on the modem will prevent you from being able to access your Squeezebox library from outside of your home. I allow those ports to be open on my router (equivalent to doing the same on your modem), and then I forward them to my server, so I can access the music from outside. But that has nothing to do with what is happening inside your home on your own private network. You would need to block 9000 and 3483 on your server in order to block Squeezebox from working on your network.

Think of it like a house - the devices on your network, including your server, are like the rooms in your house. Your modem is like the front door. If you lock the front door, and you're outside the house, you can't get into anything in the house. But if you're inside the house, you don't care if the front door is locked or not, you can still get in all the rooms if they are unlocked. If you unlock the front door and all the rooms are unlocked, you can go from outside into any of the rooms. If you leave the front door unlocked, but lock the door to the bedroom, then you can't get in the bedroom, whether the front door is unlocked or not. Same concept for network ports.

[steveinaz]

Go to the Interface tab in the SqueezeCenter settings. All sorts of customizations you can make, one of which is "Show Year with Albums". Disable that.

It is disabled---but, I've noticed that the SQB pulls data from both tags and how you have your directories named--intermixed somewhat. My sub-directories are named including year, ie "D:\Music\Baker, Anita - 1984 - Rapture." It must be pulling the date from the directory name.

What convention do you guys use for naming sub directories? Mine are like this:

D:\Music....
\Baker, Anita - 19XX - Album title
\Beatles, The - 19XX - Album title
etc...

[heiney9]

dB Power amp creates the sub directories based on the user settings.

Mine is simple

Music Server/ Artist / Album Name / Track name.

I then will manually edit anyone one of those fields in MM if I need to add add'l info like "remaster" or "MFSL" or "CD 1" (for a boxset that names everything the same) whatever other identifier I find helpful. Obviously this isn't done to more than a handful of rips. If a cd has bonus live material, I may manually add "live" at the end of the track, etc. Just my own customizing which I try to be consistent with. I have 3 versions of Fleetwood Mac Rumors, MFSL, original and remaster so I label them accordingly.

Keiko has sent me some vinyl 24/96 vinyl drops, so I manually edit some of the fields there as well something like "24/96V" after the Album Name. If you don't do it at the time you add it to your server, you'll forget and possibly not know what is what.

That's why I said in the very beginning the tagging is VERY IMPORTANT if for no other reason than to keep things consistent.

H9

H9

[steveinaz]

My tags are updated, I think it is the way I have EAC setup that is creating the sub directories "artist - year - album". The Touch is reading the sub directory name verbatim.

[heiney9]

Steve you can leave all the info in the ID3 tag because it will show elsewhere as you scroll through the SBQ menu with the remote. Don't delete the year from the ID3 tag, simply do as Inspired suggested.

If you go the "more info" screen on the Touch it has the year (if it's included in the rip). You just don't want it to show in your initial "chain" of information.

H9

[mdaudioguy]

Squeeze Commander (Android app) converts flac to mp3 when downloading from my library to my phone - a cool and convenient feature. Not sure if iPeng supports anything similar.


Is that wirelessly? Bluetooth enabled? What Android phone do you have? I know the new Droid Bionic lets you dl stuff via bluetooth from your computer.
Yes, wirelessly. I have a Samsung Galaxy S2, but it should work with any Android. When viewing a song, album, or artist, you can press and hold to get a menu and select download. It converts on the fly - although I'm not certain where the conversion takes place - I think it's on the SB server.

You first have to "Enable Transcoding" in the Squeeze Commander app settings, and set the source (FLAC) and target formats (mp3). You can also choose bitrate and quality. It says that it requires SBS 7.6+. It's an easy way to squeeze more tunes from your home library onto your phone. Although, with a 32GB memory card, and the ability to play FLAC files on my phone, this is becoming less of an issue.

[mdaudioguy]

Go into your Squezebox Server, then to the Advanced tab, and then set the drop down to File Types. Look for FLAC under File Format, and then you should see a setting for FLAC, MP3, and PCM. Set FLAC to disabled, MP3 to disabled, and PCM to flac. This will force the flac decompression to happen on your server, and ensure that you're not streaming any mp3.

I'd advise that you go into your player settings, and under Audio, set Volume Control to "Output level is fixed at 100%"

I don't think I ever fiddled with the default settings here. Mine is set to:
FLAC: Native
MP3: flac/lame
PCM: flac

What does this mean? I have both FLACs and some MP3s in my collection. Is there any conversion taking place prior to streaming? Is FLAC quality being compromised?

[steveinaz]

Steve you can leave all the info in the ID3 tag because it will show elsewhere as you scroll through the SBQ menu with the remote. Don't delete the year from the ID3 tag, simply do as Inspired suggested.

If you go the "more info" screen on the Touch it has the year (if it's included in the rip). You just don't want it to show in your initial "chain" of information.

H9

10-4, I just changed directory naming to Artist - Album, didn't touch the tags.

[SCompRacer]

I don't think I ever fiddled with the default settings here. Mine is set to:
FLAC: Native
MP3: flac/lame
PCM: flac

What does this mean? I have both FLACs and some MP3s in my collection. Is there any conversion taking place prior to streaming? Is FLAC quality being compromised?

Part of Soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0 has you change most of the File Type settings to avoid flac decoding at the Touch. To repeat what nspindle posted.

For FLAC, mine now reads:

FLAC:

AIFF : Disabled
FLAC: Disabled
MP3: Disabled (greyed out)
PCM : flac

MP3 : native

I did get a bug after installing the Touch Toolbox 3.0. After playing an entire album, my Squeezebox app can't find the player to select another. Both with my cellphone and the Squeezebox Controller. I had to exit the app and restart it. That has never, ever happened before and I dont like it. I reset the Touch, which removes the Linux changes to it. I'll review all the settings and reapply, see what happens.

[SCompRacer]

The link that nspindle previously posted. Scroll down to 1.6 for Server Based Decoding / File Type settings.
http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/11/touch-toolbox-30.html

[mdaudioguy]

Part of Soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0 has you change most of the File Type settings to avoid flac decoding at the Touch. To repeat what nspindle posted.

For FLAC, mine now reads:

FLAC:

AIFF : Disabled
FLAC: Disabled
MP3: Disabled (greyed out)
PCM : flac

MP3 : native

I did get a bug after installing the Touch Toolbox 3.0. After playing an entire album, my Squeezebox app can't find the player to select another. Both with my cellphone and the Squeezebox Controller. I had to exit the app and restart it. That has never, ever happened before and I dont like it. I reset the Touch, which removes the Linux changes to it. I'll review all the settings and reapply, see what happens.

Thanks for your reply! I just bookmarked Neil's link that you kindly repeated for me. I meant to do that before, but this thread keeps growing... very informative, though!

I'll wait to hear what's going on with your bug issue before delving into Touch Toolbox 3.0.

[zingo]

My father-in-law and I are playing with his new Touch and have come across a question since the manual says you can plug USB storage devices straight into it. If he buys a USB harddrive and plugs it into the USB jack on the Touch, since the Touch is already on his network, will he be able to see the harddrive from his computer on that same network? Obviously a NAS drive would do this, but why spend 3x as much if it would work through the Touch. I'm trying to get hiss set-up for PC-less listening, but don't want to tell him to buy something if it wouldn't solve his problem; I'm too nice a son-in-law for that... :mrgreen:

[heiney9]

No, the question has actually been answered a few times.

The USB is there for convenience and will not run an entire music server or interphase with the network.

H9

[zingo]

I guess my reading skills must not be up to par then... :cry:


No, the question has actually been answered a few times.

[nspindel]

Besides, you don't need to spend 3X as much. You can turn any USB drive into a NAS with something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Plugable-Gigabit-Ethernet-Network-Adapter/dp/B003VSTDFG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1321903700&sr=8-2

[steveinaz]

Interesting, talk to me goose.....can you load SB server on that pup?

[heiney9]

Interesting, talk to me goose.....can you load SB server on that pup?

On what pup? It's a cable. The NAS need need the capablitly to run the SQB software the only one I know of that can do that (as a standalone w/no PC) is the Qnap otherwise you still need a PC.

H9

[steveinaz]

I thought it might be one of those "squeezeplug" doohickies.

[heiney9]

Steve, I have no idea what you are talking about.

The SQB needs a computer to run, you can buy a stand alone NAS (the only one I know of is the Qnap) for about $600-700 with the HD's in place. That will run the SQB independant of a computer. Other than that I am not aware of anything else that works as effectively, quickly and with all functions intact when using a SQB.

H9

[nspindel]

You can't do the transcoding from flac to pcm on server side if you run the server software on a NAS, I don't believe the processors are powerful enough.

[punk-roc]

The new software with Synology's NAS's says it will work with the Touch. I haven't tried this myself yet, but others on their forums seem to be utilizing Synology NAS's ok

Jason

[heiney9]

You can't do the transcoding from flac to pcm on server side if you run the server software on a NAS, I don't believe the processors are powerful enough.

I think they are now in the newer ones. That would be only function of the processor on the NAS and at 2.0Ghz with 512K of RAM I think it's possible, but I honestly don't know for sure. My brother has a Qnap for his SQB and has zero issues but I can't say for certain if he is transcoding from FLAC to PCM at the server.

H9

[heiney9]

The new software with Synology's NAS's says it will work with the Touch. I haven't tried this myself yet, but others on their forums seem to be utilizing Synology NAS's ok

Jason

I had heard that, but the jury was still out at the time. I still think I read the Qnap is a little better. I'm sure the gap will be closing.

H9

[steveinaz]

Brock, do a search on Sheeva plugs for squeezebox....it's basically a power-supply sized "computer" that some people run SQB server on.

here: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Sheevaplug_SBS_Server_for_dummies

[heiney9]

Brock, do a search on Sheeva plugs for squeezebox....it's basically a power-supply sized "computer" that some people run SQB server on.

I see, but you still need a computer, no? I don't understand how this would replace your current computer? How would you tag, rip, etc? I guess you could use that as a network device and plug a NAS into it, but what's the cost? It seems less powerful than a Qnap and I doubt it's much cheaper in the end. The sole purpose of a stand alone NAS or the Sheeva seems to be taking the processing away from the main computer. But with both you still need the device networked in order to make changes and add things to the NAS, etc.

H9

[nspindel]

Wow, that's pretty cool! Never saw that before. Brock, it's not meant to fully replace a computer, it's only meant to run the server component of Squeezebox. So you would rip, tag, etc. on your laptop or desktop, save the files to your nas, and then you don't need to have a full computer running just for Squeezebox. The main advantage here is power consumption, this plug thing is going to use a tiny amount of power compared to a laptop or desktop.

[steveinaz]

Correct, it's basically for someone who doesn't want to have to run the computer all the time, or leave the computer "stuck" where the usb hard drive is. You set it up, kick it on and leave it on. You do all your tagging/ripping/etc on your main computer.

For instance, let's say I want to use my laptop (my main computer) on the patio---but I also want to hear my touch via usb hard drive, can't do it---well, not without a ton of inconvenience. (carry my laptop, usb hard drive, all associated cables/connectors out to the patio?..you get the idea)

Enter the Squeezeplug.

Nspindel, you're a computer whiz, help us figure this thing out---I like the concept!

[heiney9]

I guess for me I never thought about it, my PC runs 24/7 unless I'm gone for more than a day. I guess I can see the advantages if you had a laptop that wasn't on all the time or a PC you hardly ran. I run my SQB on an old Dell, since I bought a new Dell it just seemed logical. I only did it that way because I had an extra computer if it died tomorrow I'd run it off my main PC. I always assumed people mostly kept their PC's powered up, perhaps it's not that common.

H9

[heiney9]

What is the cost of something like that? I am not sure you can run the SQB software on it. For a long time the only self sustaining NAS that was able to run the SQB software was the Qnap at a pretty hefty price. So does this plug in computer have the capability to manage a nas and run SQB?

H9

[wattmeworry]

Have you ever checked out vortexbox.org Ive used one for over a year with no issues comes pre-loaded with squeezeserver.Vortexbox to router to touch to dac.

[steveinaz]

Brock, I didn't do much research, don't know what they cost. I think there are some youtube videos of people using them for different purposes. Somehow you can connect it up to a monitor using it's usb and a hub--monitor/keyboard/mouse. From there you load Media Server, plug in your usb hard drive, and you're off to the races.

[nspindel]

You don't need the NAS attached to the plug computer, the two will just sit on the network together. Essentiallly that's how I do it, except I use a full blown computer, not the plug. I have a server that's on all the time (my server does a lot more than just squeezebox) and then the music sits on my NAS. Works like a charm.

[zingo]

Vortexbox seems like a good way to go as it can be loaded on any old computer and stuck in the closet since it is headless.

My computer is off when I'm not using it because it's loud from the fans and 1KW power supply. Since it's in the same room as the TV and stereo, I don't want it on if it doesn't have to be. I think I may try the Vortexbox approach if I can find a cheap enough, old computer to use as the platform, then just network it.

[steveinaz]

Just bought some fuzzy dice for my Touch....kidding, but I did find a new Duet controller for my touch. yeah baby.

[zingo]

Just found two old computers that I should be able to combine into one working computer. They are the Lenovo ThinkCentre series which are small(er) and flat and should make for easy storage. I'll build them up tonight, install Vortexbox, and give it a whirl.

[mdaudioguy]

Just found two old computers that I should be able to combine into one working computer. They are the Lenovo ThinkCentre series which are small(er) and flat and should make for easy storage. I'll build them up tonight, install Vortexbox, and give it a whirl.
I think you'll like it. It automatically integrates with your network, and after installation, no monitor or keyboard is necessary. It really couldn't be easier. I've had it running for a couple of weeks now, and it's perfect.

I run it on a low-power Intel Atom-based PC that I put together.

[zingo]

I assume you can access the media that is on the vortex box from another PC on the network? Most of the music I acquire these days is from HDTracks, and I want to be able to drag and drop from my PC to the Vortexbox.

[mdaudioguy]

I assume you can access the media that is on the vortex box from another PC on the network? Most of the music I acquire these days is from HDTracks, and I want to be able to drag and drop from my PC to the Vortexbox.
Yes, check out the Documentation page for specific details here: http://vortexbox.org/documentation/
Read through the first few links under "Get your VortexBox up and running".

[Syndil]

No need for a plug computer. Many current-generation NAS devices have more powerful processors and more RAM in them than a plug computer, so there's no advantage to it.

In particular the ReadyNAS Ultra series runs Intel i3 processors, the same as in many budget laptops, and will run the Squeezebox server directly from the NAS. This gives you the advantage of having expandable storage, storage that is protected by RAID redundancy, and not needing to keep a PC running 24/7. Plus there is the bonus that it can be used for the more traditional NAS uses as well, such as backup target for your computers.

I myself am in the process of re-wiring my house (ethernet, CATV, audio, HDMI, security, etc.) and will be using a central closet as my primary equipment room in which a ReadyNAS Ultra 2 will be performing various tasks, including operating as my Squeezebox server.

[steveinaz]

I'll likely go Nas later down the road.

[steveinaz]

The more I research, the more I think building a vortexbox is the way to go. Free OS, no need for any under-lying OS.

Check this out: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001VSY66O/ref=nosim?tag=vort-20&linkCode=sb1&camp=212353&creative=380549

Or you can simply load the free OS on any computer.

Here's more info, interesting---I like it: http://vortexbox.org/documentation/

[Syndil]

The Vortexbox runs a custom distro of Linux, as does the ReadyNAS Ultra and most any other NAS appliance, so the OS is not a factor.

The VortexBox appliance you linked to at Amazon is much more limited than most any other NAS as it only supports one hard drive, and is therefore not expandable nor does it support RAID. The only feature it has that most NAS devices do not is the presence of a CD-drive, which is quite unnecessary. Once a NAS is properly set up on a network, you can map drives from your PC to the NAS and rip your music directly from your PC to the NAS, without having to physically go to the NAS an put the music CD in it. LG makes expandable, RAIDable NAS devices with a CD-drive, should you really want that drive.

The VortexBox appliance has an Intel Atom 1.6 GHz CPU (most commonly found in netbooks), 1GB of DDR2 RAM, and of course that single hard 1TB drive is a huge limitation for a NAS. For $10 less than the price of that VortexBox, you could get a ReadyNAS Ultra 2 with a single 2TB drive installed, room to add another for expansion or redundancy, and a 1.8GHz Intel processor and 1GB of DDR3 RAM. It lacks a CD drive, but again, unnecessary.

Now if you have hardware sitting around you want to put VortexBox on and create your own NAS, that's another option altogether, but if you're going to buy something, I would recommend against the VortexBox.

[steveinaz]

Great advice! I don't need the drive. So ReadyNas Ultra 2 huh? Lemme check that out. Thanks.

[nspindel]

The mrs. and I are looking to downsize from a house to an appartment in about three years. At that point, I'll probably be giving up the computer-based dvr that I'm running (SageTV) as well as the home automation stuff I installed, at which point the only thing left on my server would be the Squeezebox. At that point I'll probably be very interested in running Squeezecenter on a NAS. I have the ReadyNas NV+ right now, but it's not nearly powerful enough to do a good job at running the server. I think you can get it to run, but there's no way I'd be able to stream decompressed PCM the way I do now. So I'd probaby be upgrading the NAS at that point, or stick with the current NAS and go with one of those plug things. Who knows, the technology will change a lot over the next three years....

[SCompRacer]

Just curious, how does the VortexBox handle tagging/album art? Or must you do that after it rips? Myself, I like to control tagging before ripping. Fill that 1TB drive up and your first complete backup will take hours with USB out. Fortunately I have eSata ports on my PC for backup to an external drive.

[Syndil]

Just curious, how does the VortexBox handle tagging/album art? Or must you do that after it rips?

That is a valid question. I can't imagine that it would be any easier or better than using MediaMonkey. Since the ripping is done by the NAS itself, I would assume that the interface for controlling the ripping process and adding tags would be served from the NAS via HTTP, which is... well, far less than ideal. Even on the faster ReadyNAS Ultra 2, using the HTTP interface requires a bit of patience. But it only need be done during the initial setup of the device.

[steveinaz]

Maybe this helps? http://vortexbox.org/documentation/changing-how-your-vortexbox-rips-files/

[Syndil]

That describes the autoripper, which basically is ripping without any controls at all. No mention of tags. Searching the site, the only mention of ID3 tagging I can find is a firmware update from 2009 that adds:


MusicBrainz and CDDB used for automatic ID3 tagging

I am assuming from this that VortexBox gives you zero control over tagging and assumes you are OK with whatever CDDB decides the tags should be. So in the end, you'd probably end up having to re-tag a good portion of your library via software on your PC anyway.

[Syndil]

Ah, here is the smoking gun:


If you want to edit the ID3 tags on your music you can use the free program mp3tag. if you have a mac use PicardTagger.

So you're going to have to go back over your library to make sure everything is properly tagged. It's far easier to keep track of that sort of thing when you make sure everything is properly tagged as part of the ripping process.

[steveinaz]

I think i'd just do my ripping on my main computer, then copy the files over.

[heiney9]

I think i'd just do my ripping on my main computer, then copy the files over.

If you use a NAS and it's networked then you can re-tag before you rip. Eliminate the extra step of copying files over. K.I.S.S. otherwise some of the convenienc goes away. I suppose it's proportionate to the amount of music you have. If you don't have a lot of music the extra steps probably won't bother you. For me and others with 1K cd's to rip the extra step(s) is a real time waster.

H9

[steveinaz]

Yep, but they are talking a Vortexbox, which rips automatically.

[heiney9]

I'm speaking in general. Again there are more solutions than there were even a year ago. I looked at the Vortex box and I don't see what the advantage is for someone like me. After Xmas I am getting a NAS that can run the SQB software which is networked to my main computer. Small foot print, quiet, powerful and with RAID 5 no more backing up. This way I can access my entire music catalog over the internet anywhere I am.

H9

[mdaudioguy]

If you're particular about your tagging, rip and tag elsewhere and transfer completed files over your network. That's what I do. I do all the work from my main PC anyway, since my PC with VortexBox is monitor and keyboard-free and located elsewhere in the house altogether.

[mdaudioguy]

Great advice! I don't need the drive. So ReadyNas Ultra 2 huh? Lemme check that out. Thanks.
You can put together your own PC with specs similar to or better than the VortexBox Appliance for quite a bit less than what Amazon was selling them for. Mine has a 1.67GHz dual core processor with 2GB of RAM, and support for RAID (although I'm currently just running a single 750 GB drive). I borrowed a DVD drive from another PC for installation. Uses something like 13 Watts, so who cares if it's always on...

[Syndil]

If you're particular about your tagging, rip and tag elsewhere and transfer completed files over your network.

What is the advantage to doing this instead of mapping the target location as an extra drive on your PC and ripping them there directly?

[heiney9]

What is the advantage to doing this instead of mapping the target location as an extra drive on your PC and ripping them there directly?

There isn't one, that was kind of my point in post 230 and 232. It's an extra step that depending on how much music you have to rip can take longer. Me personally, I don't want to take a one step process and make into 2 or 3. With technology today you should be able to network or map a target drive or whatever to rip it once the way you want it.

But, I understand we all have different ideas, about what works best in our individual situations.

H9

[gdpeck]

I'm speaking in general. Again there are more solutions than there were even a year ago. I looked at the Vortex box and I don't see what the advantage is for someone like me. After Xmas I am getting a NAS that can run the SQB software which is networked to my main computer. Small foot print, quiet, powerful and with RAID 5 no more backing up. This way I can access my entire music catalog over the internet anywhere I am.

H9

Which NAS are you getting? I'm planning a NAS purchase in 2012, but haven't decided on which one yet.

[heiney9]

Qnap is what I'd like to get because they have an excellent track record, and I know they work well the the SQB, but they are pricey. I need to do some more investigating, if I can save some coin going with another company I may go that route.

H9

[mdaudioguy]

What is the advantage to doing this instead of mapping the target location as an extra drive on your PC and ripping them there directly?

Yeah, I could do that too, but I'm real particular about how I work. I like to have a separate workspace and then ship completed packages over to their final resting place. Perhaps I can train myself to be more efficient. :wink:

[Syndil]

Qnap indeed makes some good stuff, but their cheapest 2-bay enclosure costs about the same as the ReadyNAS Ultra 2 but has a slower processor and half the RAM.

I know I sound like a broken record and I apologize for that, but it's because I've researched the bejeezus out of this already. ;) With the Ultra 2 selling at right around $300 shipped, there is really nothing else that I am aware of from the usual competition (Qnap, Synology, Buffalo) that comes close to matching the ReadyNAS' performance without spending significantly more money.

[heiney9]

I was looking at the 4 bay Qnap last time I priced it, over a year ago, with the drives it was right about $700. 2 bays isn't enough for me. I am also purchasing a WD Live player and most likely will use the NAS for that as well.

[Syndil]

I assume you're going for the Qnap TS-419PII then. It has a 2.0GHz CPU but it's a Marvell instead of an Intel, and still half the RAM as the Ultra 4, which sells for the same price.

The TS-439-PROII nearly matches the Ultra 4's specs tit for tat, but costs $100 more. The ReadyNAS has a 3-year warranty and the Qnap a 2-year.

[SCompRacer]

Maybe this helps? http://vortexbox.org/documentation/changing-how-your-vortexbox-rips-files/

Thanks! I was too busy and/or lazy to find out for myself. I should also add I was referring to USB 2.0, not USB 3.0. So is the vortex USB 3.0?:cheesygrin:

[tonyb]

Moma's gotta SQUEEZEBOX she wears on her chest....... all this squeezebox talk can get to a man ya know.

Carry on...

[steveinaz]

ReadyNas request placed with Santa. Man I've been a good boy this year.

[Syndil]

I think you will be very happy with your ReadyNAS. Might want to check out this page to get a better idea of what you get with the ReadyNAS Ultra series:

http://www.readynas.com/?page_id=3962

[steveinaz]

Are the drives pre-formatted? If so, what file system?

[Syndil]

If you get a ReadyNAS with drives preinstalled, they will be formatted to EXT3. But keep in mind the format of the drives matters only to the NAS. Devices accessing the files on the NAS will be getting the info via SMB/CIFS and won't know or care what the format of the drives is. Keeping them EXT3 will give you the best performance out of the NAS.

[steveinaz]

Ok, thanks.

[grimmace19]

I just wired my squeezebox into my theater seats cupholder. The iphone app is great for controlling everything but nothing beats actually having the unit next to you to do searches on spotify and everything else. This was a far more productive way to use my 8m interconnects other than running them to my sub which is only 2m away.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/grimmace19/IMG_0091.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/grimmace19/IMG_0092.jpg