Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo III DAC Build

[SCompRacer]

I join CP's bikerboy and headrott's Twisted Pear Buffalo DAC builds along with joining the ESS Sabre DAC chip crowd. The B III uses the ESS Sabre32 Reference (ES9018) DAC chip. I decided to build their DAC as there are numerous configuration options you can choose to run with. (Tube out - fixed or switchable, dual mono, multichannel, discrete output, etc).

Power supplies are shunt regulated; a TP (Twisted Pear) Placid HD and HD BP. (The Bi-Poplar gives you + and - output). Currently installed is the TP IVY III I/V output op amp based board. I have a Legato to try after populating the board with parts. The Legato I/V board is a fully discrete balanced active output.

My test setup just has RCA out and coax in via BNC connectors (See Fred, I do listen to you).:cheesygrin: The SB Touch remains RCA out as the thing is too hard to disassemble and I?d like a drop in board mount BNC connector versus a dongle hanging out of it. The DAC board connects to a TP 4-Channel S/PDIF input board which has three inputs open.

Initial listening impressions with the IVY III output are very good. While it doesn?t slay my existing modded MH 25.3, I do like what I am hearing with it. Next up is a proper case to get it off the temporary aluminum sheet I used to test it. Future additions will be the TP Sidecar board option. You tap into a CD/SACD players circuit board to output PCM (CD) and DSD (SACD) to the Sidecar which feeds it to the DAC. (Yes, the ESS Sabre32 does DSD). When TP finishes their hi-res USB, I?ll probably add one of them as an input. I'll also add a headphone out and install the supplied volume control (also part of the ESS Sabre DAC chip features).

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/firstrun.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/almost.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/dacboard_scale.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/placidhdbp_1.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/buffaloiii_parts.jpg

[Face]

Very cool!

[thsmith]

Excellent work ! Clean layout. Does the DIY build allow for a USB I/F?

In the first picture can you slide over to the right? Looks like a rack for Albums ? If it is, did you buy or build it ?

[EndersShadow]

You make me hate myself for my lack of DIY skills with a soldering iron :sad:

[FTGV]

Awesome work.Hopefully kitty won't try to use as a bed til you get a lid on it.
In the first picture can you slide over to the right? Looks like a rack for Albums ? Likely because if you slide to the left you'll see part of the acrylic cover for his custom Lenco TT.

[drselect]

Nice work.

[SCompRacer]

Thanks all for the kind words!


Excellent work ! Clean layout. Does the DIY build allow for a USB I/F?

In the first picture can you slide over to the right? Looks like a rack for Albums ? If it is, did you buy or build it ?

All I can tell you is their current USB/DAC receiver board "utilizes the standardized USB input and I2S or S/PDIF (selectable) output for feeding our other DAC modules." Fairly sure they use standard windows drivers. There is a long thread over at DIY audio about the replacement USB module. The current one will only do 16/48. Presently I don't use USB, but I always try and prepare for resale.:cheesygrin:

The TP site. http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx

Yes, to the right is a DIY double wide LP bin. I borrowed a design I saw, only thing I did different was make it modular with a removable top section. It is easier to move around like that, empty of course. It holds around 300 LP?s. Under current contract with the wife, that is the max I can have in the living room. (Along with the small prized demo LP rack).

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/LP%20Bin/lpbin_3-1.jpg


My photobucket page with a drawing and more images.

http://s417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/LP%20Bin/


Ender, soldering is all experience and attention to method. Kind of like nubbing, you eventually get better at it.

Fred, I think Jasper needs some shock therapy.:twisted:

[anonymouse]

How much did the full project set you back?

[bikerboy]

Nice start. Make sure you vent the case well, those placid hds get hot. You'll like the legato, or at least I like it better than the Ivy. What will the face look like? Have fun with the hi res stuff. I do redbook but can rip vinyl at 24/192. Is that Linda peaking out of the stack?

[SCompRacer]

How much did the full project set you back?

So far, as pictured, ~ $710. That includes the DAC board with shunt regulator modules, IVY III output board, Placid HD and HD BP power supplies, the 9 and 15 volt transformers, 4 input board w/switch, and the IEC plug w/filter & fuses. You supply the hook up wire, chassis and input/output connectors so I'll have further expense. I had some Cardas RCA?s here that I used. You can save $20 if you bundle the IVY III board with the Placid HD PS; it shows up when you check out. To find out if I will like Legato output board better, that set me back another $105. The Sidecar, another $35.

If someone were interested in building one, I'd suggest download and read the B III manual to learn all the options and then plan a build. Or check out the TP / DIY Audo forums for beyond the manual builds.


Nice start. Make sure you vent the case well, those placid hds get hot. You'll like the legato, or at least I like it better than the Ivy. What will the face look like? Have fun with the hi res stuff. I do redbook but can rip vinyl at 24/192. Is that Linda peaking out of the stack?

Thanks! 10-4 on the case venting. I did lots of research before committing. I upgraded the sinks on the Placid HD knowing the Sidecar and 4 input board would push me well over 500mA (including shunting 50mA). I read so many opinions about the Legato versus IVY III that I knew I would have to hear them both and decide for myself.

I'll spend some time with it this weekend. It just has maybe 12 hours of bench torture and testing. I wasn't going to stick it in my upstairs system until I was confident I didn't screw something up.

[EndersShadow]

Ender, soldering is all experience and attention to method. Kind of like nubbing, you eventually get better at it.

LOL... well I just got a solder gun (for something like that I would want a smaller iron me thinks) and am slowly inching my way into that. Saw a couple kits at Radio Shack I thought about buying and building just to get some hands experience with smaller stuff since my 14/4 jumpers are by no means small :smile:.

[thsmith]

Thanks all for the kind words!



All I can tell you is their current USB/DAC receiver board "utilizes the standardized USB input and I2S or S/PDIF (selectable) output for feeding our other DAC modules." Fairly sure they use standard windows drivers. There is a long thread over at DIY audio about the replacement USB module. The current one will only do 16/48. Presently I don't use USB, but I always try and prepare for resale.:cheesygrin:

The TP site. http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx

Yes, to the right is a DIY double wide LP bin. I borrowed a design I saw, only thing I did different was make it modular with a removable top section. It is easier to move around like that, empty of course. It holds around 300 LP?s. Under current contract with the wife, that is the max I can have in the living room. (Along with the small prized demo LP rack).

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/LP%20Bin/lpbin_3-1.jpg


My photobucket page with a drawing and more images.

http://s417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/LP%20Bin/


Ender, soldering is all experience and attention to method. Kind of like nubbing, you eventually get better at it.

Fred, I think Jasper needs some shock therapy.:twisted:


Beautilful, I may have to borrow your design. Looks great. So not only an electronic DIY but wood craftsman as well.

[FTGV]

Fred, I think Jasper needs some shock therapy.:twisted:Well then be a good owner and get him his own Placid to rig up to his water dish.:wink:


So far, as pictured, ~ $710. That includes the DAC board with shunt regulator modules, IVY III output board, Placid HD and HD BP power supplies, the 9 and 15 volt transformers, 4 input board w/switch, and the IEC plug w/filter & fuses. You supply the hook up wire, chassis and input/output connectors so I'll have further expense. I had some Cardas RCA?s here that I used. You can save $20 if you bundle the IVY III board with the Placid HD PS; it shows up when you check out. To find out if I will like Legato output board better, that set me back another $105. The Sidecar, another $35.A real bargoon!One would expect a commercial unit with that level of power supply and digital and analog design to cost many times that.





I read so many opinions about the Legato versus IVY III that I knew I would have to hear them both and decide for myself.

That should prove to be an interesting comparison.

[SCompRacer]

Is that Linda peaking out of the stack?

My bad, yes that is Linda. I have a whole stack of her stuff including the Nelson Riddle trio.

Ender, I have this Weller solder station.

http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/SkuImages/gallery/large/YYPT-CTOWES51-G01-sp.jpg

Thanks th!

Fred, it sure is a nice design. The boards are small but of high quality as are the components.

[SCompRacer]

The Legato is assembled. It a fully discrete balanced active I/V line stage with both balanced and single-ended outputs.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/legato.jpg
IVY III (op amp) and Legato boards. ~150mA to run the IVY, ~350mA for the Legato.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/ivyIII_legato.jpg

[george daniel]

Damn fine work sir !!!

[SCompRacer]

Thanks George!

I am on the road to a fantastic sounding DAC so I wanted to include additional inputs. Mostly I'll be feeding it with flac from a Squeezebox Touch. What about my SACD's, or someone brings media over for a music meet? I made some progress with my PCM/DSD extraction from a Denon DVD-3910 and it works. I can export CD or SACD to my DAC. Yes again on the SACD.

The 3910 has four PCM1796DAC chips.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/pcm1796.jpg

Just grab LRCK, DATA, BCK, SCK and DGND with small gauge wires (preferably of different colors) and send them to the appropriate DAC inputs. The 1796 shares common inputs for PCM/DSD so I only have to deal with five wires and switch between two (for CD or SACD). They are foil wrapped and covered with techflex sleeving.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/denonextract_1.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/denonextract_2.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/denonextract_3.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/denonextract_4.jpg

Right now I must either connect an Orange wire for I2S PCM and Blue for DSD / SACD. I'll fabricate a switched relay in the Denon that will allow choosing which output (CD / SACD ) goes to the DAC input. A couple of Neutrik RJ45 connectors (one for the Denon and one for the DAC) will make for a nice install and allow a short Cat5 or Cat6 patch cable interconnect to be used. The DAC already has a four selector input switch and can actually support 8 inputs.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31XmWEptkRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I am not the first to do this but it may be the first 3910.

[EndersShadow]

Good looking work man. Is there anything your new DAC wont be able to do? :wink: :razz:

[FTGV]

Nice,and the IS2 for your redbook/PCM nicely side steps the SPDIF and it's problems.

[SCompRacer]

Is there anything your new DAC wont be able to do? :wink: :razz:

Thanks! Presently, finished or done ain't happening.:cheesygrin: A dual mono build beckons....

Thanks Fred. 10-4 on the SPDIF. Kind of overkill using the 3910 just as a transport, but it was available for a great price and I always wanted one.:cheesygrin: I near bought one with tubes from ModWright but grabbed a show demo Sony 9100ES from him instead.

Oh, Fred you had mentioned this in an email. Some fellow in Moscow did just that. Remove the audio boards from a 2910 and stick the Buffalo II DAC there. Transformers for the PS are in a small external enclosure connected via cable.

67591

[FTGV]

Oh, Fred you had mentioned this in an email. Some fellow in Moscow did just that. Remove the audio boards from a 2910 and stick the Buffalo II DAC there. Transformers for the PS are in a small external enclosure connected via cable.

67591Wow I guess if it's his main source the results should be excellent,otherwise your approach makes a lot more sense..I was thinking just substiuding an IVY or legato for the Denon's analog section.

[SCompRacer]

I could see myself doing the whole audio board gut like he did, but a partial output board only would be difficult for me. Them little wires by the DAC chip caused eye strain I ain't healed from yet. Heck, all I need is to move the transport to a smaller chassis with export capabilities. Could happen someday.

They do have a worldwide following. The dual mono stereo builds are really impressive. One DAC board per channel, thats 8 combined DAC's per channel.....dual discrete output boards.....a minimum of four power supplies (you can do up to three each on the output boards). Some add LCD displays. You need an amp sized chassis for all that. Lots of heat with the shunting power supplies. I am more talking myself into one that out of. Save me from myself.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/tonyfromsuffolk/finished-buff.jpg

[FTGV]

They do have a worldwide following. The dual mono stereo builds are really impressive. One DAC board per channel, thats 8 combined DAC's per channel.....dual discrete output boards.....a minimum of four power supplies (you can do up to three each on the output boards). Some add LCD displays. You need an amp sized chassis for all that. Love it.:cheesygrin:If it can be done you can be sure some DIY nutters will do it
Lots of heat with the shunting power supplies.No kidding ,with that one in the pic probably as much heat generated as with one ch. of my little Zen Class A amp.

[SCompRacer]

I finished the I2S PCM (CD) and DSD (SACD) outputs on the Denon DVD-3910 CD/SACD player. The 3910 has four PCM1796 DAC chips in dual differential mode. PCM and DSD share some inputs on the 1796 chip so I only deal with attaching five wires to the audio board in the Denon and have to switch output between two (PCM and DSD). Some DAC chips have separate inputs for PCM/DSD and require more wires to export both signals. I only need four wires after the switching relay. Different color wires were used so it was easier to properly connect them. The same colors are used in the DAC. I snagged 5 volts from a board on the Denon to power the relay. The signal wires are foil wrapped to shield them.

I modified a Twisted Pear Sidecar relay board to switch between PCM and DSD outputs. A single long standoff off an existing board made mounting easy. The relay is controlled by a rocker switch mounted on the rear of the Denon. Up is DSD out, down is PCM out. A bat handle switch might get broken or stab me while I'm feeling around back there. Four output wires attach to a Neutrik RJ45 connector. A short Cat5 patch cable connects to another RJ45 connector on the DAC which is wired to the appropriate inputs on the DAC board.



http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/3910_1pcmdsd.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/3910_2pcmdsd.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/3910_3pcmdsd.jpg

[Face]

Nice!

[heiney9]

High marks Rich!! Very high marks! You do really nice work. How does it sound?

H9

[bikerboy]

Very nice work on the DVD player. PCM out of the sacd should sound beautiful with the Buffalo. What do you think of the Buffalo now that you have had some time with it? I find the midrange to be so much more real and full compared to the other dacs I've used. I got a kill a watt meter last week and the Buff III setup I have burns 0.3 amps. Less than I thought. But the pass amp uses 2.4 amps! Whats next for your dac? I ordered a pair of Teleporters to use between my pc and the dac. I will use the teralink or mod the juli@ for i2s output. The i2s sounds much better than the spdif on my system.

[SCompRacer]

Thanks for the kind words!

I haven't really had much time lately due to work and other commitments to have a really good listening session. Not much bench time or SOMA (Sit On My Arse) time. I also wanted to wait until I had it properly and fully configured with no temporary wiring like I had with the Denon. I am there now. I'd also like to swap the IVY III back in and compare it to the Legato output board.

My ultimate goal is to be able to part with my ModWright Sony 9100ES. Even though I hardly use it anymore, it is my benchmark for absolute SQ here. The modded Music Hall 25.3 also sounds really good, but I am confident it will pop up for sale. Or I'll keep it as a spare for the day I build a dual mono BIII. The ESS Sabre32 DAC chip does get my attention though, like wow.

Do you think the Teleporter would improve sound quality over sending the low voltage PCM/DSD data over a meter of cabling? It was quiet playing with the shorter shielded temporary wiring. I get a DAC signal lock LED on the bench with a 1 meter Cat5 cable with CD and SACD playing but haven't tried it in my system yet. A volt drop test might tell me something. I'll definitely spend some time with it this weekend. I actually need someone to pop over this weekend so the wife won't put me to work.:cheesygrin:

[FTGV]

Nice clean implementation.I'm also curious how the Sabre compares to the ModWright.

[bikerboy]

Good that you have the teleporters in mind. I want to use them because I have regular dropouts when using the i2s output from the teradac x-2 module from my pc. I'm hoping the lack of ground connection will solve the dropouts. When I use the spdif inputs on the dac I get no dropouts at the lowest dpll settings. If you are getting dropout free playback I dont know how the teleporters would improve your sound except to increase the voltage level. Let us know how they work out.

[SCompRacer]

Good that you have the teleporters in mind.

I need them now. I get dropouts using a 1 meter Cat5 cable. I'm sure the connections add up too. They are suppose to start shipping this week. Russ (White) had said to use them regardless if it worked without them.

[FTGV]

I join CP's bikerboy and headrott's Twisted Pear Buffalo DAC builds along with joining the ESS Sabre DAC chip crowd. The B III uses the ESS Sabre32 Reference (ES9018) DAC chip. I decided to build their DAC as there are numerous configuration options you can choose to run with. (Tube out - fixed or switchable, dual mono, multichannel, discrete output, etc).

Power supplies are shunt regulated; a TP (Twisted Pear) Placid HD and HD BP. (The Bi-Poplar gives you + and - output). Currently installed is the TP IVY III I/V output op amp based board. I have a Legato to try after populating the board with parts. The Legato I/V board is a fully discrete balanced active output.

My test setup just has RCA out and coax in via BNC connectors (See Fred, I do listen to you).:cheesygrin: The SB Touch remains RCA out as the thing is too hard to disassemble and I?d like a drop in board mount BNC connector versus a dongle hanging out of it. The DAC board connects to a TP 4-Channel S/PDIF input board which has three inputs open.

Initial listening impressions with the IVY III output are very good. While it doesn?t slay my existing modded MH 25.3, I do like what I am hearing with it. Next up is a proper case to get it off the temporary aluminum sheet I used to test it. Future additions will be the TP Sidecar board option. You tap into a CD/SACD players circuit board to output PCM (CD) and DSD (SACD) to the Sidecar which feeds it to the DAC. (Yes, the ESS Sabre32 does DSD). When TP finishes their hi-res USB, I?ll probably add one of them as an input. I'll also add a headphone out and install the supplied volume control (also part of the ESS Sabre DAC chip features).

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/firstrun.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/almost.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/dacboard_scale.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/placidhdbp_1.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/buffaloiii_parts.jpgBump,

I'm drooling again.:cheesygrin:

[SCompRacer]

Bump,

I'm drooling again.:cheesygrin:

I can't wait for you to get one and see what you do with it and hear what you think of it.:cheesygrin: IIRC they start shipping the 15th.

[FTGV]

I can't wait for you to get one and see what you do with it ...:cheesygrin:It should fit nicely in this chassis in place of the CS4398 DAC board currently residing there.I won't even have to remount the Salas regs.:cheesygrin:
IIRC they start shipping the 15th.I can't wait.

[headrott]

Fred, those Salas regulators are excellent! You will not be dissapointed with the Twisted Pear equipment. Their DAC is phenominal! You may be dissapointed in not using some tubes in the output though Fred.:razz::wink::cheesygrin:

Greg

[FTGV]

Fred, those Salas regulators are excellent! Yes agreed using it to power the analog section of the DAC shown in the pic. certainly lifted it a few notches sonically.I expect it mate equally well with the IVY .
You will not be dissapointed with the Twisted Pear equipment. Their DAC is phenominal!I'm expecting as much Greg having loosely followed the development of the Buffalo and reading the hype surrounding the ESS chip for some time.
You may be dissapointed in not using some tubes in the output though Fred.:razz::wink::cheesygrin:

Greg In my best Mexican accent. Tubes?We don't need no stinking tubes.:razz:

[SCompRacer]

Good that you have the teleporters in mind. I want to use them because I have regular dropouts when using the i2s output from the teradac x-2 module from my pc.

Progress report, Teleporters installed and functioning! For those that don't know what that is...."The Teleporter is a four-channel LVDS transceiver module, designed to solve the problems associated with long-distance (up to 100ft/30m) transmission of I2S and DSD digital streams using standard CAT5/6 cabling." (A Teleporter module is at top right in second pic). They need 5v and up to 150mA with all four channels used.

The PCM1796 DAC chip in the Denon shares some inputs for PCM and DSD so I only have three channels to transmit with no ground needed. Bit clock, Word clock and Data for PCM. DSD is Bit clock, word clock becomes data left and data becomes data right. No ground needed so we have galvanic ground isolation between source and destination components; thus no ground noise issues to worry about.

At first they didn't work for me with DSD or PCM. The DAC wouldn't lock, signal cut in and out, lock LED flickering for both. While poking around, I grabbed the Denon chassis and grounded myself and it worked, solid lock, steady LED in the DAC. I learned the Denon 3910 isn't supplied with a grounding IEC from the factory. After installing one and grounding the chassis to it, I got lock and SACD played wonderfully. PCM played but with a crackling noise. Disconnecting and jumpering the plug on my relay board made the crackling stop. I grounded the modified Sidecar relay board to the back panel where the Teleporter is attached, and now CD's play without crackling through the relay. You'll have to excuse the quick and dirty white ground wire, but we be listening now.:wink::cheesygrin: Enough bench time today.

One could install a Teleporter in a 'putie. With the right sound card, export I2S to a DAC. One would need a Teleporter to transmit and one to receive (transmit/receive done by setting dipswitches).

[schwarcw]

Rich belts another out of the park! Man you are on the leading edge of DIY quality and ingenuity! Congrats on the teleporter success!!

[SCompRacer]

Thanks Carl! How about for cutting edge a dual mono dac with digital display controlled by a micro controller. Gotta be able to modify/write code to make that all work. Maybe next, after the stealth PTP5 stainless top plate Lenco!:cheesygrin:

http://hifiduino.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/20x4lcd.jpg?w=600

[bikerboy]

Great work Rich,
I've had better luck with the dropout issue. I used the switch setup as per the diyaudio post to select between i2s and spdif adding the auto spdif detect switch. I need to look at grounding more from what you found with the denon. I have a juli@24/192 card in the pc so I need to get i2s off of it next. Looks like it will work. I'll see if it sounds better than the teradac. I2s is the way to go without question! Much cleaner and more open sounding. Not as much glare. Glad you got your teleporters beaming well.

[SCompRacer]

I've had better luck with the dropout issue.

Kewl! Glad to hear you are gaining ground too! I haven't got a DPST switch yet so I'm just tripping SW2 dipswitch 5 (spdif bypass) to on when I do I2S/DSD. Not having a ground on the Denon sure had a negative effect on the Teleporter. I was surprised to find it like that.

You ever use front panel express software? I just started and don't like it much. I'm software challenged.:eek: I'm going to check with a self employed girl friend (really, just a friend) who has a CNC machine to see if she can cut a front and back panel for me.

[headrott]

Progress report, Teleporters installed and functioning! For those that don't know what that is...."The Teleporter is a four-channel LVDS transceiver module, designed to solve the problems associated with long-distance (up to 100ft/30m) transmission of I2S and DSD digital streams using standard CAT5/6 cabling." (A Teleporter module is at top right in second pic). They need 5v and up to 150mA with all four channels used.

The PCM1796 DAC chip in the Denon shares some inputs for PCM and DSD so I only have three channels to transmit with no ground needed. Bit clock, Word clock and Data for PCM. DSD is Bit clock, word clock becomes data left and data becomes data right. No ground needed so we have galvanic ground isolation between source and destination components; thus no ground noise issues to worry about.

At first they didn't work for me with DSD or PCM. The DAC wouldn't lock, signal cut in and out, lock LED flickering for both. While poking around, I grabbed the Denon chassis and grounded myself and it worked, solid lock, steady LED in the DAC. I learned the Denon 3910 isn't supplied with a grounding IEC from the factory. After installing one and grounding the chassis to it, I got lock and SACD played wonderfully. PCM played but with a crackling noise. Disconnecting and jumpering the plug on my relay board made the crackling stop. I grounded the modified Sidecar relay board to the back panel where the Teleporter is attached, and now CD's play without crackling through the relay. You'll have to excuse the quick and dirty white ground wire, but we be listening now.:wink::cheesygrin: Enough bench time today.

One could install a Teleporter in a 'putie. With the right sound card, export I2S to a DAC. One would need a Teleporter to transmit and one to receive (transmit/receive done by setting dipswitches).

Excellent Rich! I am wondering, I have not seen a remark about the length of I2S lines you can use between the teleporter and DAC? Is it still the same 10cm recommended? Thanks for the answer Rich.

Greg

[SCompRacer]

Excellent Rich! I am wondering, I have not seen a remark about the length of I2S lines you can use between the teleporter and DAC? Is it still the same 10cm recommended? Thanks for the answer Rich.

Greg

Thanks Greg! Yes, 10cm or 4" max is still the rule to follow. I exceeded that in the my 3910, it is like 6-7 inches long. There isn't much room for a Teleporter above and at the rear of the audio board on the 3910. It is also 5" from the closest DAC chip. I suppose I could have mounted the Teleporter closer and ran the Cat5 into the player. Russ was even concerned with me using the Neutrik RJ45 panel connector like I did in the DAC mock up as it added extra connections. That allowed me to keep the I2S wires in the DAC at the 10cm minimum. Of course that was before I found the fix.

He was also concerned about the extra length in the Bit Clock circuit due to the relay to switch between PCM and DSD. As you recall they tell us to keep the I2S wires at equal lengths. Perhaps I should have measured it out and increased the length of the data/word clock wires. I did wrap the small wires with foil that I salvaged from stripping them out of a long video cable.

I?m thinking there are CDP designs with higher voltages than 1.6v to the DAC chip. IIRC the PCM1796 DAC chip has a range from .3v to 6.5v input voltage. Seems like some folks can get away with 1 meter I2S lines from their CDP to the DAC without using a Teleporter, like Mr Majestic with that Denon DVD-1920. As I recall the output from my old Denon 2910 was low, like 1.6v at the RCA out.

[SCompRacer]

I2s is the way to go without question! Much cleaner and more open sounding.

I was thinking about this and agree I2S would be the preferred way over spdif. One area the ESS Sabre DAC chips do to improve your sound experience is the way they handle spdif. An excerpt from the white paper:



III. EXTRACTING THE DATA FROM THE TRANSPORT MEDIUM

A. SPDIF Interface

The SPDIF interface is more complex than the DSD and I2S since it must first derive the embedded clock in the bi-phase encoded data. In fact, experience with many forms of SPDIF decoder suggest that most fail in the presence of high jitter due to the lack of robustness in the clock recovery process. To avoid this potential problem the Sabre SPDIF interface avoids having to extract the clock at all: decoding is done using a method that does not require an explicit measure of the clock frequency.

It goes on of course how they accomplish that. The link to the white paper.
http://www.esstech.com/PDF/sabrewp.pdf

The point being even using spdif with an ESS Sabre DAC chip, you can get better sound. I think this contributes to folks going to DAC?s using the ESS Sabre DAC chips and liking them. Of course, I'm thinking that it can't fix everything so a lower jitter source will still best the high jitter source.

[rolls]

Hello SCompRacer

I have been studying the 3910 manual for a while to go I2S, but only with your help I have understood DSD/PCM connections.
I have found points near IC203, where I2S and SPdiF is generated, but then the I2S cables will be longer, and now, what is better, shorter wires and longer board traces or the other way round. With a feedthrough Neutrik connector and a short R45 cable I could mount the teleporter very near IC203.
There are still 2 points of interest:

In the 3910 manual PCM Wordclock and DSD DATA right are the same trace and not DATA left as used on buffalo.
Have you checked left and right with SACD?
Then I have had the idea to tap IC202 pin 75 or CY211 pin 21(connector to display). The blue SACD is switched on this way with a npn transistor. If you use another one to switch your relay, I2S/DSD will be automatic!
I thank you for your work.

[SCompRacer]

Hi rolls! I am glad to have helped you and appreciate your kind words and input. I don't have any schematics for the 3910, but I was going off the PCM1796 DAC chip datasheet.

From page 18 of the PDF datasheet:

http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/93045/BURR-BROWN/PCM1796.html

"Direct Stream Digital (DSD) Format Interface and Timing

The PCM1796 supports the DSD format interface operation, which includes out-of-band noise filtering using an internal analog FIR filter. For DSD operation, SCK (pin 7) is redefined as BCK, DATA (pin 5) as DATAL (left channel audio data), and LRCK (pin 4) as DATAR (right channel audio data)."

So on the PCM1796 DAC chip, PCM/I2S has pin 4 as WORD Clock, pin 5 is DATA (L and R channel) and pin 6 is BIT Clock. With DSD, pin 4 becomes DATA Right, pin 5 becomes DATA Left and pin 7 is BIT Clock. So all I did was use a relay to switch between pin 6 (PCM BIT Clock) and pin 7 (DSD BIT Clock). On the Buffalo III DAC, input connections remain the same to the Sidecar/BIII. I do have R and L channel SACD working along with PCM. I'll have to pop the cover on the 3910 to see the IC203 point you are referring to and try and understand the clever way of switching you described.

I do use the Neutrik RJ45 connector on the DAC connected with a short Cat5 cable to the Teleporter. That way the Teleporter can be close to the BIII DAC Sidecar input and not exceed the recommended 10cm (4") I2S wires. I see no reason why that couldn't be done in the 3910 as well. IIRC Russ White (or Brian) expressed some concern about using Neutrik RJ45's with the Teleporters due to the extra connections. I figured since the Teleporters allow up to 100 feet of Cat5, a couple of extra connections might not be detrimental to the signal with a short patch cable. I suppose one could cut the plastic away and solder the wires to the Neutrik RJ45 instead of relying on just the push in wire clamp. Of course you would still have the extra RJ45 plug in connections (as in my image in post 43).

One thing I learned about I2S is all the wires should be shielded, including the Cat5 used between the LVDS Teleporters to keep stray RFI from interfering wth the signal. You can get Cat patch cable with shielded connectors as well. If you pick up interference, the I2S could be no better or worse than a SPDIF connection where all the Data is combined.

In regards to my configuration with the BIII used with SPDIF and I2S/DSD inputs; the ESS DAC chip has a SPDIF auto-detect feature. When using high sample rate PCM/DSD input on pin D2 or D4 inputs, auto-detect is prone to false positives and won't remain locked on the signal. Therefore SPDIF auto-detect should be disabled with I2S/DSD. Rather than flip the dipswitch, wire up B5 to a switch and ground. By flipping the switch and grounding B5, you turn SPDIF auto-detect off and I2S/DSD remain unmolested and locked.

[rolls]

Hi ScompRacer

Thank you for your kind reply,
If you like I could send you the manual. You can contact me directly, there are 230 pages.
There is still the left/right problem I don't understand.
May I quote you from post 37:

"The PCM1796 DAC chip in the Denon shares some inputs for PCM and DSD so I only have three channels to transmit with no ground needed. Bit clock, Word clock and Data for PCM. DSD is Bit clock, word clock becomes data left and data becomes data right."

Then you said in your latest post:
"So on the PCM1796 DAC chip, PCM/I2S has pin 4 as WORD Clock, pin 5 is DATA (L and R channel) and pin 6 is BIT Clock. With DSD, pin 4 becomes DATA Right, pin 5 becomes DATA Left and pin 7 is BIT Clock."

For the PCM1796 Dac, word clock becomes data right is correct, but I don't know what happens in the buffalo.
In the manual and teleporter, word clock becomes data 1, which normally means left. Do I miss something?

[SCompRacer]

rolls, duh, my apologies. It just hit me what you said, the BIII DSD R & L inputs are listed as different in the integration guide. I obviously missed that. That means if the guide is correct, my SACD R & L channels are reversed at the BIII inputs. I would need to add two more relays to flip the DSD channels in the 3910. Good catch, thanks!

How are you with FrontPanelExpress software?:smile:

[rolls]

With the help of the manual you could also look for the DSD right and left traces in the neighborhood of IC203,
before they meet with I2S, then you could unsolder the resistors there and solder new ones, not SMD, left to right, and right to left.
This way you don't need 2 more relay, but the original Stereo output would be reversed when you play SACD.
But as buffalo owner you won't use the Denon DAC any more.

[SCompRacer]

Currently I am pulling the I2S/DSD signal off the board before the SMD resistors that connect to the DAC chip inputs. I don't want to reverse the stereo signal, so relays appear the best way to accomplish the channel swap. I need to get an enclosure designed/made and then I will revisit the DSD issue.

I don't have that many SACD's, but obviously need the option and want it right.

[rolls]

All problems solved at the moment,
I think I can start I2S as soon as possible, with confidence.
The Denon sounds fantastic right now, because it is Lampizator modyfied (SPdiF with pencil tube).
Sadly my Teac P2-s with new clock has no chance any more.
Thanks for your help!

[FTGV]

.. Their DAC is phenominal!After now having several weeks of listening to my finished unit I have to agree.It has exceeded my expectations being highly resolving yet very musical sounding.There is none of the high frequency etch and glare that I sometimes hear with my little AKM based DAC on some violin recordings,instead they are sweet and buttery smooth sounding through the BIII without losing any of the micro detailing.Mine is configured a bit different than Rich,s using his old IVY III analog board,Salas reg's for the analog stage,and just a single SPDIF input.
The use of multiple shunt regulators for the digital and analog section certainly has audible benifits but results in a lot of excess heat and my single rack height chassis can get very warm after long listening sessions.
In fact it gets warmer than a couple of my high power Hypex (pure:smile:)Class D amplifiers.I may try to source a bigger or better ventilated chassis to give it more room to breath.

I have been keeping an eye on(more like drooling over) TP's development process of this DAC over the last few years and appreciated how they were striving to optimize each performance area for maximum sound quality.(For instance the use of such high quality voltage regulation for the DAC chip itself is a rarity). I owe a big thanks to my bud Rich for a very generous gesture that steered me towards building one of these wonderful sounding devices.

[headrott]

After now having several weeks of listening to my finished unit I have to agree.It has exceeded my expectations being highly resolving yet very musical sounding.There is none of the high frequency etch and glare that I sometimes hear with my little AKM based DAC on some violin recordings,instead they are sweet and buttery smooth sounding through the BIII without losing any of the micro detailing.Mine is configured a bit different than Rich,s using his old IVY III analog board,Salas reg's for the analog stage,and just a single SPDIF input.
The use of multiple shunt regulators for the digital and analog section certainly has audible benifits but results in a lot of excess heat and my single rack height chassis can get very warm after long listening sessions.
In fact it gets warmer than a couple of my high power Hypex (pure:smile:)Class D amplifiers.I may try to source a bigger or better ventilated chassis to give it more room to breath.

I have been keeping an eye on(more like drooling over) TP's development process of this DAC over the last few years and appreciated how they were striving to optimize each performance area for maximum sound quality.(For instance the use of such high quality voltage regulation for the DAC chip itself is a rarity). I owe a big thanks to my bud Rich for a very generous gesture that steered me towards building one of these wonderful sounding devices.

Glad you are enjoying the DAC Fred. Your setup (including Salas regulators) I'm sure helps as you said.

That was one of the first things I looked for when choosing a chassis for my DAC (second to size) was breathablility. There are vent holes all around the edges and top. It keeps it pretty cool.

Post some pice when you have a chance Fred. Interested in seeing what your DAC is like.

I have been searching for the perfect output tube como for my DAC recently. I know you shun the valves, but the tube output sounds great with the Buffalo DAC. I listened to my rig with having installed one RCA long black plate 12AX7 and one Valvo Hamburg 45 degree halo getter long plate tube per channel. The combination has a lot of detail and resolution, but still retains some of the warmth and midrange liquidity of the RCA black plate tube. Good combo!! I know this is getting crazy (somewhat) doing tube combinations, but you should hear the output!:wink::biggrin:

[SCompRacer]

Hey Fred! Glad you are liking it. The Salas are great performers and those boards look awesome. Shunted power supplies are the way to go to get all the bang out of the BIII. The IVY III output board sounds really good. The Legato is a bit different flavor, some like it better.

I need to get cracking on an enclosure myself. I started plans for one using FrontPanelExpress. I'd like to have the front and rear panel holes CNC'd with some nice silkscreen lettering. The DAC is worth it.

[JGlacken]

ScompRacer,

I was wondering if you got my PM?

Jeff

[SCompRacer]

Hi Jeff. I've been busy with work and don't check in much, but I don't see one. IIRC new members can't send PM's here until they have 10? posts? I sent you one with some alternate contact info.

[SCompRacer]

rolls, I haven't been using the Denon 3910 except to test stuff in the shop. While I wasn't working on a multiple relay board to correct the reversed SACD channel problem, Twisted Pear was and came up with an I2S/DSD switching solution. Meet OTTO2.

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/control/otto.aspx

PCM is connected to B1; PCM Bit clock, Word clock, Data and GND. DSD is connected to B2; DSD Bit clock, Data left and Data right (which share the PCM Word and Data circuits) are reconfigured on the B2 side so the SACD channels are no longer reversed.:cheesygrin: OTTO has the grounds tied so no need to jump GND from B1 to B2. OTTO is controlled by the switch I had previously installed. It passes the selected signal to the Teleporter which sends it to the DAC.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Buffalo%20III%20DAC/otto_close.jpg

[schwarcw]

PCM is connected to B1; PCM Bit clock, Word clock, Data and GND. DSD is connected to B2; DSD Bit clock, Data left and Data right (which share the PCM Word and Data circuits) are reconfigured on the B2 side so the SACD channels are no longer reversed.:cheesygrin: OTTO has the grounds tied so no need to jump GND from B1 to B2. OTTO is controlled by the switch I had previously installed. It passes the selected signal to the Teleporter which sends it to the DAC.



What the hell language are you speaking??? LOL!:cool:

[SCompRacer]

What the hell language are you speaking??? LOL!:cool:

It works so neither of us has to understand it!:cheesygrin:

[tonyb]

Rich, your a sick puppy....and I mean that in a good way.

Nice frickin' job bud, that baby looks bad ass. Wish I had the patience for this stuff. Good work !!!

[bikerboy]

He's speaking Buffalo!

[SCompRacer]

Sick, yes! Wait until you see the dual mono DAC in an amp sized chassis with six shunting power supplies! And determined! Digital doesn't tell me what to do here...don't tell me I can't play SACD's through an external DAC! I embrace G.B. Shaw.....therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man! Mu hah hah hah! :cheesygrin:

Speaking Buffalo...lol

[headrott]

I'm going to have to get me an Otto II! How long ago did this one come out? Within the last month?

[SCompRacer]

I'm going to have to get me an Otto II! How long ago did this one come out? Within the last month?

It is a slick addition to the TP offerings! They became available late July. He had introduced OTTO II in their mfr forum at diyAudio July 12.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/twisted-pear/216799-introducing-otto2.html

Brain added a diagram in this thread at the TP forums. I have mine configured like the diagram (OE jumpered to GND, 10K resistor between S and GND. It is getting 4.94v B+ from the Denon. B1 is default output when not powered. When S is powered, it switches to B2. Russ mentions some other configurations.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/twisted-pear/216799-introducing-otto2.html

[schwarcw]

I know that I have lauded Rich many times for his DIY craftsmanship. But until you have seen the build quality of his projects and heard the sound with your own ears, words cannot describe both the visual and audible quality of his work. To say he has a great talent is an understatement. Rich you in a class by yourself.

He's actually a pretty good guy also. Crazy mofo, but a good guy! LOL!:lol:

[tonyb]

I know that I have lauded Rich many times for his DIY craftsmanship. But until you have seen the build quality of his projects and heard the sound with your own ears, words cannot describe both the visual and audible quality of his work. To say he has a great talent is an understatement. Rich you in a class by yourself.

He's actually a pretty good guy also. Crazy mofo, but a good guy! LOL!:lol:


Yep, one of these days I'll get down to pay him a visit. He's a rock star in this DIY stuff for sure. The quality and thought that goes into his builds are just sick. Should really go into buisness for himself doing this stuff.

[SCompRacer]

Aw, thanks for the kind words.:redface: I'm just a Red Solo Cup kind of guy inside. Carl, usually I manage to suppress the crazy mofo thing, except with you....what does that mean?:cheesygrin:

Tony, come on down man! I'm DAC-less right now, having sold the modded Music Hall 25.3 and the BIII lying gutted on the bench. Once I get the new DAC going I'll try and set up a get together. Been working so much, I'm burnt out for the weekends.

[heiney9]

Tony,

Don't go in the basement. Just ask Ed. :cheesygrin: It would be nice to see you again.

Rich,

I am working all the time and can relate to the weekend burn out thing.

H9

[FTGV]

I'm DAC-less right now, having sold the modded Music Hall 25.3 and the BIII lying gutted on the bench. Huh! Slacker ,you've had a week already to get'r done.:cheesygrin:

[SCompRacer]

Tony,

Don't go in the basement. Just ask Ed. :cheesygrin: It would be nice to see you again.

Rich,

I am working all the time and can relate to the weekend burn out thing.

H9

He signed a non-disclosure! Nothing goes on like in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo though.


Huh! Slacker ,you've had a week already to get'r done.:cheesygrin:

I'm no slacker! I just got a treatable case of the dead-arse.:cheesygrin: Just got the Placid HD power supply I needed the other day. Ready to solder up. I've been introducing the new parts to the existing build making sure everything works. Then I sit down in the sweet spot and listen to digital through the retro system with Polk 7A's. I say ain't this nice....the cat jumps in my lap....progress halts.:biggrin:

I'm happiest soldering stuff to the boards. No expectations other than a good solder joint. Assembling it all and expecting it to work, now that is the scary part.

[agfrost]

Tony,

Don't go in the basement. Just ask Ed. :cheesygrin: It would be nice to see you again.


H9

I managed to escape the basement a couple weekends ago, but I caught a whiff of solder flux and brake cleaner and may have blacked out for a period of time... :eek:

[FTGV]

I'm no slacker! I just got a treatable case of the dead-arse.:cheesygrin: Well at least it's treatable.As time goes by I find myself ever increasingly getting relapses of the incurable variety.


... and may have blacked out for a period of time... :eek:Yikes! not liking the sound of that.For your sake I hope no vids show up on YouTube .:eek:

[shadowlight]

Wow looks great. Is it possible to add remote control to the DAC and use it as preamp? Will have to read through the TP forum.

[SCompRacer]

Wow looks great. Is it possible to add remote control to the DAC and use it as preamp? Will have to read through the TP forum.

Thanks!

Yes on the remote. I've seen some use the Alps remote pot. You can even do a digital display/remote using the Arduino board to control via I2C. It requires ability to write, I think they call it, simple code.:eek::biggrin: Hifiduino is helpful in that area. You can select source, control volume, etc. The ESSSabre32 DAC chip has volume control built into it. My DAC uses a manual pot. No hit on sound quality using it.

http://www.arduino.cc/

http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/02/programming-buffalo-dac-review-of.html


An example using the digital display.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1165/imagen153z.jpg

The thread. (You have to be a member of forum to view forum uploaded pics).
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/forum/yaf_postst2592_Quad-Buffalo-III-with-large-diplay--finished.aspx

Along with their support forum, Twisted Pear also has a manufacturer forum at diyAudio.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/twisted-pear/

[shadowlight]

@ScompRacer - Thanks for the information. Time to go read and get myself familar and figure out if I have the skills to build something. The closest that I have come to DIY was building the ClassD audio amp but that was already build, all I had to do was connect wires and drill some holes :smile:

[SCompRacer]

You are most welcome. Once I get past the dual mono build and it works, I may look into a digital display with remote. Right now the remote/digital display would be too much for me to take on.

The kits are easy to build. All the parts to populate the board are shipped attached to ID tags. Like resistors, labeled R1-R12 A & B with their value. Simply pop them out one at a time and place them in the marked location on the PCB and solder away. No picking through a loose bag of parts.

They have a comprehensive integration guide for a BIII build linked off this page just below the picture.
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx
All the answers are in there along with a BOM (bill of materials) list for additional items you need, such as chassis connectors, terminals and headers. They even provide the digikey and Mouser part numbers. For instance, rather than use the supplied screw type fasteners for everything, I used header pins and terminal plugs, like on the OTTO II pictured above.