Would I Benefit From a DAC?

[pkdowning]

I recently purchased a pair of Polk RTI A7s and am excited to put together a "listening room" in my home. My plan is to hook the RTI A7s up to my Onkyo receiver (I know probably need a better receiver or add an amp) and stream my apple lossless music from my Mac computer via iTunes to an Airport Express hooked up to the receiver. Will this setup work well? Would adding a DAC into the mix help things out? I have started reading about the Keces DAC or Peachtree that seem to get rave reviews based on price point.

Thanks for your time and comments in advance.

[blairfrischx]

In most cases, yes, having a standalone DAC is much preferred. A receiver has a lot of stuff going on inside it which might disrupt the low level conversion circuitry. It's part of the reason that sound cards in PCs are inherently less than ideal, even if the design of the circuit is sound. It's just a hostile environment for low level signals.

[pkdowning]

I noticed that the Keces DAC was USB only. Does that mean it wouldn't work for my current setup because I am not directly connecting the speakers to the computer?

[EndersShadow]

I noticed that the Keces DAC was USB only. Does that mean it wouldn't work for my current setup because I am not directly connecting the speakers to the computer?

Keces offers another model that is optical/spdif as well. That would work if your not using your computer directly connected. I believe its model 151 or 131 (I forget which lol)

[pkdowning]

How would I put all of this together?
iTunes -> Airport Express -> DAC via Toslink -> Receiver via RCAs -> A7s???

Would my receiver need preouts?

[blairfrischx]

Unless you plan on using an external amplifier, your receiver will not need preouts.

iTunes -> Airport Express -> DAC via Toslink -> Receiver via RCAs -> A7s via speaker cables

[steveinaz]

Define "benefit." You may experience a subtle improvement, it certainly won't sound worse.

[blairfrischx]

I recently purchased a pair of Polk RTI A7s and am excited to put together a "listening room" in my home. My plan is to hook the RTI A7s up to my Onkyo receiver (I know probably need a better receiver or add an amp) and stream my apple lossless music from my Mac computer via iTunes to an Airport Express hooked up to the receiver. Will this setup work well? Would adding a DAC into the mix help things out? I have started reading about the Keces DAC or Peachtree that seem to get rave reviews based on price point.

Thanks for your time and comments in advance.

Just FYI, there is a Keces DAC that just went up on Audiogon: http://app.audiogon.com/listings/keces-da-151-usb-dac

No affiliation.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Let me stop you right there at using the Airport Express...

I"ll admit that I have not tried the Express specifically, but have tried the Apple TV streaming lossless files and found the results less than ideal. The convenience was nice, but the quality of the sound wasn't up to my standards, to the point where I actually thought that maybe Apple is doing some kind of compression or something of the music before streaming it. Maybe the Airport Express is different, but I don't know why it would be. This was all done using an external DAC.

So before you go buy an external DAC I would do some comparing and make sure your streaming setup is ideal. For instance, my contention is that REPLACING your Express with a Squeezebox Touch and using the DACs in the Touch itself would sound better than adding a DAC to the Express. Adding a power supply and then DAC to the Touch would take things up to reference level.

And keep in mind, I'm an Apple guy these days, have at least one of basically every device they make. All things being equal I tend to lean towards Apple, so when I say the sound is less than ideal that means I really don't like it.

[gce]

So before you go buy an external DAC I would do some comparing and make sure your streaming setup is ideal. For instance, my contention is that REPLACING your Express with a Squeezebox Touch and using the DACs in the Touch itself would sound better than adding a DAC to the Express. Adding a power supply and then DAC to the Touch would take things up to reference level.


Don't mean to butt in, but you're saying that even with a recever (AVR) that he could take it to reference level?

The reason I'm asking is that in the Squeeze Box thread steveinaz said;
Without trying to sound like a snob-ass dick-head, I would say that if a receiver is going to be used, I wouldn't see much advantage to a high priced external DAC. I'm just sayin I don't want you to waste money in that direction.

I would just do a comparo between the DACs in the Touch vs the DAC's in your receiver---whichever sounds better, wins.

Just trying to get a handle on this because I wanted to buy a Squeeze Box and DAC. I'm using a NAS to stream my Flac files to my AVR but would like to up improve the sound by adding a SB and DAC? But the more I read around here the more confused I get. :confused:

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Not at all, you can get reference quality with the SB Touch, an upgraded PS and a DAC for sure. But the rest of your system also has to be on that same level. Use that setup as a source on a system with a good preamp, amp and speakers and you're good to go.

[hochpt21]

Also sorry to threadjack but would a DAC in the $300-$500 range such as the peachtree DacIT improve the sound if I am streaming MOG? I know most of the guys with external DAC's talk about losless and what not, but I would be streaming MOG only. Would a DacIT be worth it in that case?

[pkdowning]

Would the Logitech Squeezebox Touch be able to link up with iTunes? I have all of my music and playlists just the way I want them in iTunes and would hate to have to redo all of my playlists; especially the smart playlists.

[tonyb]

Would the Logitech Squeezebox Touch be able to link up with iTunes? I have all of my music and playlists just the way I want them in iTunes and would hate to have to redo all of my playlists; especially the smart playlists.

Absolutely......either squeezebox or Sonos turns your computer into your cdp and then can spread it out wirelessly by your current router if you like or you can hard wire straight from a laptop, desktop, pad.

[tonyb]

Also sorry to threadjack but would a DAC in the $300-$500 range such as the peachtree DacIT improve the sound if I am streaming MOG? I know most of the guys with external DAC's talk about losless and what not, but I would be streaming MOG only. Would a DacIT be worth it in that case?

Not to the point that you would say it was worth the coin. Why only stream Mog anyway ? What are you using at the moment ?

[doctorcilantro]

And I think the new Airports are reported to have quite a bit of jitter. See CA forum for details. They do work rather well for many situations, but best to avoid for your reference rig.


Let me stop you right there at using the Airport Express...

I"ll admit that I have not tried the Express specifically, but have tried the Apple TV streaming lossless files and found the results less than ideal. The convenience was nice, but the quality of the sound wasn't up to my standards, to the point where I actually thought that maybe Apple is doing some kind of compression or something of the music before streaming it. Maybe the Airport Express is different, but I don't know why it would be. This was all done using an external DAC.

So before you go buy an external DAC I would do some comparing and make sure your streaming setup is ideal. For instance, my contention is that REPLACING your Express with a Squeezebox Touch and using the DACs in the Touch itself would sound better than adding a DAC to the Express. Adding a power supply and then DAC to the Touch would take things up to reference level.

And keep in mind, I'm an Apple guy these days, have at least one of basically every device they make. All things being equal I tend to lean towards Apple, so when I say the sound is less than ideal that means I really don't like it.

[pkdowning]

Does the Squeezebox Touch or Sonos have the better built in DAC?

[steveinaz]

I would say the DAC in either is likely on par with a common decent CD player. Don't know if one is better than the other. Used with a receiver, it's not likely going to make any difference, IMO.

If it were my system, I'd use the internal DAC, and sometime down the road if I went to seperate components, I'd buy a nice external DAC at that time.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

I agree with Steve, both sound very good and with an AVR you'd end up with about the same end result.

[steveinaz]

We have to approach these decisions with a realistic view of what audio benefits you'll actually realize, given the rest of the components in the chain. Then we have to consider how sensitive (or non-sensitive) people are to changes. One man's "huge" difference is another man's "subtle" difference. When I read the word "huge" when related to differences in audio, I immediately question the credibility of the reviewer---because I know, from personal experience, ther are very few things that make a "huge" difference. The answer is, and always has been speakers first. If you're somehow dissatisfied with your system, you need to be taking an honest appraisal of your speakers, because everything else is going to be miniscule by comparison. Just my 2 cents.

[nwohlford]

And I think the new Airports are reported to have quite a bit of jitter. See CA forum for details. They do work rather well for many situations, but best to avoid for your reference rig.

I have seen this claim too, but has anyone back this up with measurements. The old stereophile review gave decent measurement of jitter on the g version of Airport Express using the optical out to a DAC (http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/505apple/).

The AppleTV is a total different issue since it is not bit perfect (converts everything to 48kHz).

[pkdowning]

I actually really enjoy the sound I hear from my Onkyo receiver and A7s however, after all the reading on the forums, I started to wonder what I was missing. Maybe I should just enjoy what I have and consider changing things up down the line. It may even be more beneficial to upgrade my receiver with more wattage to power the A7s??

Of note, my Airport Express is an older "g" model.

[nwohlford]

I actually really enjoy the sound I hear from my Onkyo receiver and A7s but, after all the reading on the forums, started to wonder what I was missing. Maybe I should just enjoy what I have and consider changing things up down the line. It may even be more beneficial to upgrade my receiver with more wattage to power the A7s??

Of note, my Airport Express is an older "g" model.

I say stick with the Airport Express if you like it. I think it is hard to guess which next step would get you the biggest gain, so I would do whatever interests you. If you want to play around with an amp, a DAC, or a music server, then I would do it. Somethings may feel like big changes and others yield little or no difference, but it is often hard to know in advance.

[steveinaz]

Nothing wrong with your network music decision, I think you'll love it; but I don't think an external DAC is needed. Now, if you have money just falling out of your pockets, sure buy an external DAC, never hurts to have your source as clean as it can be.....

[gce]

Thanks y'all, I have now decided, with your help NOT to go for a SBT and DAC for now. My NAS is working great for what I have. Going back to my other plan and getting the SVS. :mrgreen:

[pkdowning]

I definitely don't have, "money just falling out of my pockets." :) so maybe I will hold off on the DAC and keep my receiver. My receiver is an Onkyo 606 rated at 90 watts/channel. Would more wattage help the a7s open up more or, again, should I just enjoy what I have and not worry about it?

[steveinaz]

If it's "honest watts" it never hurts to have more power. More power equals more "peak" power in reserves. Are you satisfied with the output capabilities now? Are you sometimes jamming on the ragged edge?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Given your current setup, the first thing I would upgrade would be the receiver. That 606 is OK, but right now is the weak link in your system by far. I wouldn't pay much attention to the watts once you're at a reasonable level of receiver. Pioneer SC, NAD, Cambridge, Sunfire, higher end Onkyos - I could go on and on with options that would perform well above the 606.

Steve is right that speakers are most important, but you already have a very good pair of speakers whereas your receiver is just OK.

[pkdowning]

My Onkyo 606 doesn't have pre-outs so even if I wanted to I wouldn't be able to add an amp. Having said that, would it be better to get a better receiver vs. a lower end receiver with pre-outs and add an amp?

Since the A7s will be for strictly listening purposes, could I get a stereo receiver instead of a HT multi channel receiver?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Absolutely, if you know you only want stereo, then you'd very likely be able to get much more out of a stereo receiver for the same money. If stereo is all you want then there are LOTS of receivers and integrated amps that will work very well and sound WAY better for music than the 606, by a mile.

[pkdowning]

Absolutely, if you know you only want stereo, then you'd very likely be able to get much more out of a stereo receiver for the same money. If stereo is all you want then there are LOTS of receivers and integrated amps that will work very well and sound WAY better for music than the 606, by a mile.

Anything you could recomend to get me started? I am really interested in a "best bang for the buck" setup. I am not in a position currently to be spending thousands and thousands of $ :)

[steveinaz]

If you're not a big am/fm guy, an Integrated amp would be within reach and get you alot closer...just a thought. How much can you spend?

[pkdowning]

I would definitely be interested in an integrated amp as I never listen to AM/FM.
Is it possible to get into an integrated amp for less than $500 new or used??

[steveinaz]

Used, I'm sure you could--new might be tougher. From what I'm seeing "new" you'd have a little less output (spec wise) but in reality I think you're real world output would be way better. Low cost receivers tend to fudge a bit on their output capabilities.

Take a look here, just to get an idea-- http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=9

Check out the NAD, Cambridge, Marantz offerings. Also check different websites for "demo" or "open box" gear. Personally, I'd rather have 45 "NAD" watts, than 90 "Receiver" watts, but that's a long discussion, for another time.

[pkdowning]

Doing a quick search on the forums, some of the recommendations were:
Music Hall A15.2
Outlaw RR2150
Harmon Kardon 3390

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Check out Cambridge, NAD and Music Hall. All three companies have integrateds below $500 that perform very well and would be a significant improvement over the AVR you have now for music playback. Personally, I'm a big fan of Music Hall at any pricepoint below $800 or so...

[steveinaz]

This is in the Polk flea market:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?134714-FS-Very-Nice-Yamaha-A-1000-120-w-ch-Class-A-AB-integrated-amp

Well within your budget.

[pkdowning]

There is actually a Music Hall 15.2 integrated amp on Audiogon for $388. I was really considering it, but noticed that it doesn't do Speaker A and B. I have a pair of outdoor speakers that are connected to my Onkyo receiver that I would like to obviously still be able to utilize for non critical listening. The NAD C 356BEE as well as the Cambridge 651A have speaker A and speaker B.

[tonyb]

Nothing wrong with a vintage piece either like a Sansui or Marantz. Alot of the vintage stuff has speaker A and B switching. You could also just get a seperate speaker switch box to control those outdoor speakers. Relatively cheap too.

I use an old Sony receiver to control my outdoor speaks and kitchen area speaks, though wouldn't mind snagging a Sansui integrated to replace it.

[Lost240]

A dac should make a large difference over the airport express.

[tonyb]

Wants to be on Broadway someday....naked. ^^^^^

[SCompRacer]

Wants to be on Broadway someday....naked. ^^^^^

I'm happy I didn't post just prior to the deleted spammer.......:cheesygrin:

[Lost240]

Unfortunately I did....What is that all about??

[tonyb]

My obnoxious comment was aimed at a spammer who has been deleted....leaving little ol' me looking like it was directed at you. It wasn't....but if ya like I can come up with something for ya. :smile:

[SCompRacer]

And it wasn’t a real bad comment….hell, I danced on Broadway once. I wasn’t naked, it wasn’t in New York, but I was drunk.:biggrin:

[tonyb]

And it wasn’t a real bad comment….hell, I danced on Broadway once. I wasn’t naked, it wasn’t in New York, but I was drunk.:biggrin:

In Boys Town ? Rich...I never knew.:biggrin:

[Devlon]

Not to the point that you would say it was worth the coin. Why only stream Mog anyway ? What are you using at the moment ?

As far as online music streaming MOG is the only one that universally streams at 320kbps