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transmaster
10-07-2012, 10:52 PM
I don't know how many of you have visited the DIY Audio Projects (DAP) website, (http://diyaudioprojects.com/) it is very interesting. In Hamradio we have a 100 year tradition of what we call homebrew, that is the building transmitters, receivers, RF amps, and such from scratch. AT DAP you will find Tube, and solid state amps of all kinds, pre-amps tube, and solid state, phono amps both tube and solid state etc. What is I am calling your attention to here is the section DIY Hi-Fi Audio Cable Projects. Here they have tutorials on building high quality speaker, interconnects. and power cords.

In particular are two projects:
DIY Shielded RCA Interconnect Cables (http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/DIY-Shielded-RCA-Interconnect-Cables/)
The 2nd:
DIY Low-Inductance Speaker Cables (http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Low-Inductance-DIY-Speaker-Cables/)

The First: These interconnects are built using Sommer Cable SC TRICONE MKII guitar and instrument cable. I have been unable to find a State side source for this cable, The suggested substitute is Mogami Cable http://www.mogamicable.com/

There is an interesting story about guitar and instrument cables. Up until the early 1960's instrument cables such as where used in studio's didn't exist. It wasn't until multiple track recording started to be used in the late 1950's it stared to became an issue. Studios would setup microphones on stands to record with. Cables where not very flexible they didn't have to be. It was George Martin's work with the Beatles that caused dedicated guitar cables to be developed by Belden. George discovered the cables used by electric guitars at the time where too noisy to use with with the instruments being directly connected to the recording equipment. Belden engineers working at BMI's Abbey Road studio developed cables that where very flexible, and at the same time very quiet.

The Second: Low-Inductance DIY Hi-Fi Speaker Cables. All of the components used to make these cable comes from Parts Express. If you look at the tested spec's for these cable they equal and exceed the spec's for cables costing much, much more. They nicely compare with an 8PR KimberKable.

Here is a Hi-Rez photo of these cables http://diyaudioprojects.com/Gallery/displayimage.php?pid=406&fullsize=1

tonyb
10-08-2012, 05:49 AM
All of the components used to make these cable comes from Parts Express. If you look at the tested spec's for these cable they equal and exceed the spec's for cables costing much, much more. They nicely compare with an 8PR KimberKable.


Tested specs huh......kindly inform us what test they used to measure tone, soundstage width and height, or how long a note seemingly floats in the air. Specs don't tell the whole story. Not knocking the DIY crowd either, we have plenty here that do a bang up job producing a product that competes well for not alot of coin. Many of todays cable companies started as a DIY'er. I'm just sceptical when someone claims specs as the be all end all.

transmaster
10-08-2012, 03:34 PM
Tested specs huh......kindly inform us what test they used to measure tone, I'm just sceptical when someone claims specs as the be all end all.

Here we go, this is the last time I will ever post anything to do with this subject if you can't take an article at it's face value that is to damn bad, if you are skeptical then drop a note to the author of the article.......Good bye Polk Audio forum.

tonyb
10-08-2012, 05:00 PM
Here we go, this is the last time I will ever post anything to do with this subject if you can't take an article at it's face value that is to damn bad, if you are skeptical then drop a note to the author of the article.......Good bye Polk Audio forum.

Dude, relax...geez man, are we in 3rd grade ?

Taking an article at face value.....yeah, ok, believing it as gospel ? Uh no. I can accept anything at face value, doesn't mean I have to agree with every word. Believe me, these aren't the first nor the last to proclaim specs, or measurable specs as the tell tale story of cables. Have a beer and a vallium pal, everything will be ok.

Face
10-08-2012, 05:24 PM
Tony, other than MIT, what other brand cables will tell you such things you inquired about?

As far as tone, that can be explained through a cable's LCR. Soundstage, imaging, etc...we still have a ways to go as far as measurements.

Clipdat
10-08-2012, 06:16 PM
if you are skeptical then drop a note to the author of the article.......Good bye Polk Audio forum.

Wow, for not being the author he sure got defensive.

halo71
10-08-2012, 06:27 PM
.......Good bye Polk Audio forum.

Really? Wow. Skin a lil' thin in the north?

SDA1C
10-08-2012, 06:56 PM
I get exactly where he's coming from. There are indeed testing devices that will measure frequency interference and thus the "Noise" of a cable. I find it incredibly troll like to just skim around and find a cable fight to pick. For someone having a few grand wrapped up in cables it sure seems odd that you don't expect to some day have the differences measured to a point of identification as to what and why. The dude posted a cool article about guitar for Christ sake leave it at that!

@ the Op. I am not going to say stay that's up to you. But damn dude get some skin man. When someone is being an obtuse dick just ignore them...

tonyb
10-08-2012, 07:30 PM
Please point to where I am being a dick. Because I don't agree ? Yes it's a cool article and yes I'm all for the DIY crowd, but the part I don't accept is testing capacitance, resistance, and inductance and thinking those measurements alone will dictate how a cable sounds. Sure you can claim they are up there right in line with other cables such as Kimber, and it may be true, doesn't mean they will sound the same. Who knows, maybe they will sound better for all I know, but my point was that measurements alone won't tell you how a cable will sound. If thats being a dick, then your too easily offended.

If I came across as a Dick, then I appologize, was not my intent. Discussion.....thats what we do around here, no ?

heiney9
10-08-2012, 07:32 PM
Tony you are not one of the male appendages in this thread.

H9

SDA1C
10-08-2012, 07:56 PM
Tony,

I think the OP as well as many of the rest of us are just tired of hearing about how we are going to measure the differences. If there is such a difference, that I as well believe there is, then eventually there will be a means to measure it. To continually ask for those means when one knows they do not yet exist is just inciting riot. I think I know you well enough to know this wasn't an intentional dig but sometime coupled with the mass of other threads that take a turn for the worst it is easy to say that the second post being "Prove It" is likely going in the same direction. The Op was referring to a guitar set and instead the jist went directly to a cable bout.

Your apologies if you were acting that way certainly says that you are not the one in reference but it sure didn't take long for him to show up did it. Anyway... as a generalization if it bugs you on the net and someone is being difficult or a dick just ignore them was the point. If it came across as towards you, then I might wonder why you felt that way.

Personally I think there is a way to measure differences in cables. Sort of the reason why I asked in another thread about the different SDA IC medium. If someone was to measure with sensitive enough equipment the different cables abroad they would notice a difference no matter how subtle that difference mat be. When someone gains enough experience to cross those electronic differences to the audible differences than we would have a winner. I am not sure there is yet audio equipment as sensitive as the human ear is capable of being so until then we just get to speculate. n the case of the article there were noticeable differences both audible and electronic. In that case it seems like a winner. Would those cables show the same in a HiFi system?. Who knows but for the test being done it was all good. Not every article is designed to be dissected by a group of nothing else to do audiophiles. Sometimes we need to just let it go.

halo71
10-08-2012, 08:22 PM
Your apologies if you were acting that way certainly says that you are not the one in reference but it sure didn't take long for him to show up did it. Anyway... as a generalization if it bugs you on the net and someone is being difficult or a dick just ignore them was the point. If it came across as towards you, then I might wonder why you felt that way.


Come on now. Do you think everyone reading this thread believes that your comment was not directed at Tony? Now you're trying to back peddle and say you meant Brock. Before he even posted in this thread?:rolleyes:

tonyb
10-08-2012, 08:39 PM
Tony,

I think the OP as well as many of the rest of us are just tired of hearing about how we are going to measure the differences. If there is such a difference, that I as well believe there is, then eventually there will be a means to measure it. To continually ask for those means when one knows they do not yet exist is just inciting riot. I think I know you well enough to know this wasn't an intentional dig but sometime coupled with the mass of other threads that take a turn for the worst it is easy to say that the second post being "Prove It" is likely going in the same direction. The Op was referring to a guitar set and instead the jist went directly to a cable bout.

Your apologies if you were acting that way certainly says that you are not the one in reference but it sure didn't take long for him to show up did it. Anyway... as a generalization if it bugs you on the net and someone is being difficult or a dick just ignore them was the point. If it came across as towards you, then I might wonder why you felt that way.

Personally I think there is a way to measure differences in cables. Sort of the reason why I asked in another thread about the different SDA IC medium. If someone was to measure with sensitive enough equipment the different cables abroad they would notice a difference no matter how subtle that difference mat be. When someone gains enough experience to cross those electronic differences to the audible differences than we would have a winner. I am not sure there is yet audio equipment as sensitive as the human ear is capable of being so until then we just get to speculate. n the case of the article there were noticeable differences both audible and electronic. In that case it seems like a winner. Would those cables show the same in a HiFi system?. Who knows but for the test being done it was all good. Not every article is designed to be dissected by a group of nothing else to do audiophiles. Sometimes we need to just let it go.

Dude, the second article he posted was not about guitar strings, did you at least read it ? Personally, I believe I just made a single point, a far cry from " dissecting " the article. Your making a moutain out of a mole hill with this, so how about we let it go before it spins out of control. It is ok to agree to disagree, yes ?

SDA1C
10-08-2012, 08:41 PM
I am sure you can check with the rest. If I meant Tonb directly I would have said Tonyb. So go roll your eyes at someone that gives a sh..

P.S> check your time stamps Einstein.

SDA1C
10-08-2012, 08:45 PM
I did read it tony I was looking more toward the postings that always go to measurement when it comes to cables. I don't disagree with you about measurements I was simply voicing my opinion about jumping to conclusions and going the way of the cable. So old the cable debate.....Of all the information in the OP it is the testing of the specs that gets a rebut. Why is that always the case?

halo71
10-08-2012, 09:00 PM
I am sure you can check with the rest. If I meant Tonb directly I would have said Tonyb. So go roll your eyes at someone that gives a sh..

P.S> check your time stamps Einstein.

Stop back peddling dude! We know what you meant. I do see now you posted after Brock. Doesn't mean much really. Gotta admit, his post was true.

tonyb
10-08-2012, 09:08 PM
I can ask the same question, why is it always the case people equate cable companies as high priced whors ? If you read the article, it establishes a cost chart among some very well know cable companies and of course the DIY cable. They then elude to why one would buy such a cable when you can make it yourself for a fraction of the cost. No doubt you can make your own at a fraction of the cost, but....will it sound the same ? No comparisons are made. The article suggests that the capacitance, resitance, and inductance, along with gauge, are similiar or even better in some respects, so concludes they must be of same quality or same sound characteristics. So you the chump, stop paying for those pricey cables.

Look, I'm fine with the article up to the point they start thinking pricey cables are B.S. and do no sound comparison between them at all.....only what shows up on a scope. Another thing is there is no account for what cable companies spend in R&D, marketing, sales, customer service. Mind you, the guys cables look cool, something I would try for sure, but the bias towards higher end cables gets my goat is all. I like Pepsters cables too, doesn't mean I won't try an Audioquest or Kimber and surely doesnt make them part of some evil empire.

SDA1C
10-08-2012, 09:25 PM
Sure it does..it means you run your mouth before reading thoroughly. And I agree Brock's statement is true now that you're here. Are you going to post to the OP or are you just here to be sure H9 gets his angle right?

Anyway...none of the articles were about guitar strings they were about DIY cables and the specs that those cables in particular produced. It has been stated many times over that once you reach a specific point, it takes a big leap for a small gains. That tells me it is very possible to compete, as other in this forum have, with mid priced cables, at a very low price. Add some descent materials, which honestly the plugs and wire were descent at best in the article, to just a marginal bit of know how, throw in a pictorial or two, a bit of time and shazam! you just saved yourself a couple grand depending on what is sending the signal. Chances are the difference is going to be so negligible as to most the work and the savings are well worth the time.

SDA1C
10-08-2012, 09:29 PM
I can ask the same question, why is it always the case people equate cable companies as high priced whors ? If you read the article, it establishes a cost chart among some very well know cable companies and of course the DIY cable. They then elude to why one would buy such a cable when you can make it yourself for a fraction of the cost. No doubt you can make your own at a fraction of the cost, but....will it sound the same ? No comparisons are made. The article suggests that the capacitance, resitance, and inductance, along with gauge, are similiar or even better in some respects, so concludes they must be of same quality or same sound characteristics. So you the chump, stop paying for those pricey cables.

Look, I'm fine with the article up to the point they start thinking pricey cables are B.S. and do no sound comparison between them at all.....only what shows up on a scope. Another thing is there is no account for what cable companies spend in R&D, marketing, sales, customer service. Mind you, the guys cables look cool, something I would try for sure, but the bias towards higher end cables gets my goat is all. I like Pepsters cables too, doesn't mean I won't try an Audioquest or Kimber and surely doesnt make them part of some evil empire.

I am firmly in the cables work category and to be honest I haven't tried nearly as many as most. Some of the claims in the article are not real clear and who knows what is better as we haven't been able to measure accurately what affects what in the signal. Maybe, as back pressure is to tuned exhaust, the proper resistance and not too little, is to sound stage.

halo71
10-08-2012, 09:31 PM
In this thread, much like the other one where you offer up those oh so knowing nuggets of information about how the construction industry and the like works. You do not know what you are talking about here either. Although Brock was right in what he said. I was simply calling you out on calling Tonyb a dick. It was uncalled for. I'm done. Have a nice night. :rolleyes:

SDA1C
10-08-2012, 09:32 PM
In this thread, much like the other one where you offer up those oh so knowing nuggets of information about how the construction industry and the like works. You do not know what you are talking about here either. Although Brock was right in what he said. I was simply calling you out on calling Tonyb a dick. It was uncalled for. I'm done. Have a nice night. :rolleyes:

LOL damn I was waiting for the enlightenment here on MY trade of 20+ years. Is that in a different thread? Poop! Be right there!

kidglove13
10-08-2012, 10:06 PM
To kind of stay on the topic of the DIY cables.

I do not understand the claimed values that are stated on the DIY website nor do I claim to know anything about anything.

I did make a set of those DIY speaker cables, just because I could and it was a fun little project and was fairly inexpensive to do so.

I have no measurements or readings to post on the cables, nor do I claim anything about them technically speaking.

But, I can say that I did notice an audible difference between the DIY cables and heavy gauge monster speaker wires the DIY speaker cables replaced.

Was the difference a huge one, no but it was for the better, to my ears at least, and the fact that I even noticed and audible change.

But, I still know nothing about nothing except what I heard.

kidglove13
10-08-2012, 10:07 PM
duped the post sorry

EndersShadow
10-09-2012, 07:49 AM
To kind of stay on the topic of the DIY cables.

I do not understand the claimed values that are stated on the DIY website nor do I claim to know anything about anything.

I did make a set of those DIY speaker cables, just because I could and it was a fun little project and was fairly inexpensive to do so.

I have no measurements or readings to post on the cables, nor do I claim anything about them technically speaking.

But, I can say that I did notice an audible difference between the DIY cables and heavy gauge monster speaker wires the DIY speaker cables replaced.

Was the difference a huge one, no but it was for the better, to my ears at least, and the fact that I even noticed and audible change.

But, I still know nothing about nothing except what I heard.

And thats what we are talking about. There are differences between cables however in my case I went from 14 gauge mononprice wire to a set of 14/4 Audioquest FLX DIY cable. Couldnt tell too much of a difference. Got a set of Audioquest CV-4 36 dbs cables, heard a HUGE difference. Got in on the MIT Demo, heard some slight differences between the speaker cables. Then I got MIT EXp2 speaker cables and was able to discern a difference. Sold those and wound up with a set of Kimber Kable 8VS speaker cables and those so far are IMHO the best sounding to me.

We respect people who say "Hey I tried a different cable and it sounded better, and I may not know why but I like it" more than someone who says "Science says they are the same" who hasnt tried a more expensive cable to actually compare. Plus I am of the opinion that a lot of the entry level stuff with some exceptions will sound about the same.

Thats why we keep suggesting Blue Jeans Cable and Signal Cable. They are priced at or below what Monster cables cost and are a much better value.

mufsoman
10-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Since we're talking about DIY cables, this may be a good opportunity to ask a related question. When IC's are made, I believe they can be built with various quantities of individual wires in each cable. Manufactures charge more for the cable based on the number of wire strands in the cable. Some high end cables have >80 strands in the cables (?).

* Are all these individual wireds braided together similar to the DIY directions in the links above?
* What gauge wire is used when that many strands are used, without ending up with a garden hose diameter cable?
* How are all those wires terminated/soldered at the plug without a massive lump of wires bigger than the solder point of the plug?

I know these are probably simplistic questions, but always wondered how the cables are built. Some day I may try to make Pepster proud with my own cable builds.....

SolidSqual
10-11-2012, 03:35 PM
All classic club polk male bovine excrement and banter aside, if someone is looking for a great cable that will do many things very right, check out the Mogami 2549. It is a solidly engineered cable with great extension, resolution and bass. I've owned MIT, Audioquest, Kimber, etc. and know none are a better value than Mogami. I'll probably go back to a system completely stacked with boutique brand cable in a few years to get the best sound possible according to my ear, but for right now I'm enjoying the bang for my buck as save the money for other upgrades and purchases.

SolidSqual
10-11-2012, 03:39 PM
One last thought . . . the Mogami is worth trying to at least give yourself a benchmark to understand how good a cable can be before diminishing returns kicks in and the numbers start rounding up.

pepster
10-11-2012, 04:39 PM
One last thought . . . the Mogami is worth trying to at least give yourself a benchmark to understand how good a cable can be before diminishing returns kicks in and the numbers start rounding up.

Personally, I LOVE Mogami wire and use it frequently, my favorite thus far is the 2534 Neglex (braid the 4 conductors).
Highly recommended especially if you are just getting into cables.
I am going to have to try some of their speaker wire also as I have read really positive reviews.

pepster
10-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Since we're talking about DIY cables, this may be a good opportunity to ask a related question. When IC's are made, I believe they can be built with various quantities of individual wires in each cable. Manufactures charge more for the cable based on the number of wire strands in the cable. Some high end cables have >80 strands in the cables (?).

* Are all these individual wireds braided together similar to the DIY directions in the links above?
* What gauge wire is used when that many strands are used, without ending up with a garden hose diameter cable?
* How are all those wires terminated/soldered at the plug without a massive lump of wires bigger than the solder point of the plug?

I know these are probably simplistic questions, but always wondered how the cables are built. Some day I may try to make Pepster proud with my own cable builds.....

Lots of info/ how to videos on Youtube.

Like anything else, after time you get better and better and learn little tips/secrets that make it easier.

You should get you a solder gun, some cable and solder and give it a try.

SolidSqual
10-11-2012, 04:52 PM
Personally, I LOVE Mogami wire and use it frequently, my favorite thus far is the 2534 Neglex (braid the 4 conductors).
Highly recommended especially if you are just getting into cables.
I am going to have to try some of their speaker wire also as I have read really positive reviews.

I like the Mogami 2534 for my balanced ICs. I don't think there is anything more neutral, but balanced is less finicky than RCA. Have you compared the 2549 to the 2534 by any chance? I have and am interested in your thoughts.

tonyb
10-11-2012, 05:05 PM
The last few post only serve to make my point. You guys listened for differences, scientific measurements aside. Isn't that the final measure of which all cables should be held, how they actually sound to you ? I know thats the final measure I use not only with cables but gear also. I could care less whats inside a pre amp, amp, speaker, etc, as long as it sounds good to me, who cares.

Mogami and Canare have been favorites of the DIY crowd for awhile and rightfully so. I have no doubt one can build himself a cable of equal or even better quality of some name brands, but, not because measurements on a scope say so, because your ears tell you so.

Pepster himself makes a quality power cord one of which I own and compares very well to some PC's I had at 3 and 4 times the price. I would encourage anyone to talk to him about cables and see what he can do for you.....and I'm not just blowing smoke up his arse either.

EndersShadow
10-11-2012, 05:20 PM
Pepster himself makes a quality power cord one of which I own and compares very well to some PC's I had at 3 and 4 times the price. I would encourage anyone to talk to him about cables and see what he can do for you.....and I'm not just blowing smoke up his arse either.

Dont forget the IC's he makes as well. I have a Pepster powercable that will be used by my headphone amp, and will probably get another one for my computer.

He needs to keep going and get into the speaker cables and USB cables too so I can have a pepster approved rig top to bottom :biggrin:.....

pepster
10-11-2012, 06:03 PM
I like the Mogami 2534 for my balanced ICs. I don't think there is anything more neutral, but balanced is less finicky than RCA. Have you compared the 2549 to the 2534 by any chance? I have and am interested in your thoughts.

Sorry, I have not compared the two.

Same wire as the 2534 (4 wires), but the 2549 being 22ga (2 wires) as opposed to 24?

When I braid it is easy to double the conductors if that is the desire.

That said I have used the Neglex 24 ga in single runs, and doubled up, thus I have heard the 20 ga version, and 24 ga version but have not heard the 22ga.:lol:

pepster
10-11-2012, 06:19 PM
The last few post only serve to make my point. You guys listened for differences, scientific measurements aside. Isn't that the final measure of which all cables should be held, how they actually sound to you ? I know thats the final measure I use not only with cables but gear also. I could care less whats inside a pre amp, amp, speaker, etc, as long as it sounds good to me, who cares.

Mogami and Canare have been favorites of the DIY crowd for awhile and rightfully so. I have no doubt one can build himself a cable of equal or even better quality of some name brands, but, not because measurements on a scope say so, because your ears tell you so.

Pepster himself makes a quality power cord one of which I own and compares very well to some PC's I had at 3 and 4 times the price. I would encourage anyone to talk to him about cables and see what he can do for you.....and I'm not just blowing smoke up his arse either.

I know exactly where you are coming from Tony.
Alot of people do live for the specs and measurements though just like any hobby I suppose (I am not one of them).
Both sides have their own beliefs, and standard gauges they will go by in deciding.

For me, as far as cables go, I have had the same audio components for the last 2 or 3 years.
In my mind at least, it makes it easier to tell the difference (by ear) when cables are swapped because of the familiarity with my components.

The way people go through gear now a days, I would be surprised at best if they could tell 1 aftermarket power cable from another, considering the components in the system change so often.

SolidSqual
10-11-2012, 06:33 PM
I know exactly where you are coming from Tony.
Alot of people do live for the specs and measurements though just like any hobby I suppose (I am not one of them).
Both sides have their own beliefs, and standard gauges they will go by in deciding.

For me, as far as cables go, I have had the same audio components for the last 2 or 3 years.
In my mind at least, it makes it easier to tell the difference (by ear) when cables are swapped because of the familiarity with my components.

The way people go through gear now a days, I would be surprised at best if they could tell 1 aftermarket power cable from another, considering the components in the system change so often.

Do we really have to pick specs or ear? Both are useful. Specs can focus your search to help lead you in the right direction and your ear will let you know if you've veered off the right path. Simple as that. This is especially true since many people buy stuff off the internet where specs is all they have to go by.

pepster
10-11-2012, 06:42 PM
True.

But in the end, those specs have to live up to what these ears like.
I am 100% blind in both ears! LOL:lol:

Face
10-11-2012, 07:16 PM
I agree with the Mogami recommendation, I use Mogami Gold XLR cables throughout my den HT and 2 channel rig.

tonyb
10-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Mike makes a valid point, yes specs are usefull of course, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

crouse
10-12-2012, 08:37 PM
Question for everyone: is solid copper wire better than twisted strands for speaker wires or worse or no difference?

pepster
10-13-2012, 06:55 AM
Question for everyone: is solid copper wire better than twisted strands for speaker wires or worse or no difference?

I like solid core better.
Not going into details, other than my power cables, my whole system is wired
with solid core.

Something to consider about solid core speaker cables is stiffness.
No getting around it, they are going to be stiffer than stranded, but the trade off is worth it IMHO.

Welcome to the forum!

crouse
10-13-2012, 11:40 AM
Thanks Pepster. I'm going to try the solid core.

pepster
10-13-2012, 12:38 PM
Best "Bang for Buck" solid core speaker cables I have ever heard personally is the Nordost "Super Flatline".
Simply killer, and possibly in the $125-$150 used depending on length.
The basic Flatline is killer also depending on your other cables (digital, analog IC's, ect.).

I have tried many times to get away from them and tried many other types (even more expensive) but always came back to the the Super Flatlines.
Get a good digital cable and good pair of IC's and you will see what I am saying, they keep up with the best of cables when combined (keep up with much more expensive source cables)!:cheesygrin:
No brainers, and leave me wanting nothing more in speaker cables.

76255

tonyb
10-13-2012, 02:52 PM
Always wanted to try those Pep. Pretty satisfied with my Gregg Straley Reality speaker cables, he's a DIY'er too and compares favorably to many higher priced cables. I'll keep a look out for a used pair of flats just to compare.

steveinaz
10-13-2012, 03:39 PM
I think solid core copper works great for a system lacking air/treble sparkle; multi-strand works well for more mid range energy, and to settle down overly-hot treble speakers. Just my experiences.