2 channel music RT-800i musical ?

[disneyjoe7]

Ok, I'm confused:confused: Looking to have better 2 channel sound. Equipment used is Onkyo 898 in pure audio, RT-800i speakers. Want is best an add on amp or speakers?

Spent some time at Sound Advise and now more confused then anything.

[hoosier21]

I would look for a good used amp

[disneyjoe7]

That's what I was thinking at first, but at Sound Advise I heard for my self that some speakers are designed for HT some are better at music.

So is RT-800i musical? Another way of putting this is can you tell who sits behind who in the group by listening ?

Am I better off with speakers if this is true, Amp 10% Cables 10% Speakers 80% ?

[dorokusai]

Dedicated components often result in much better performance. I will echo Hoosier's recommendation of sourcing an amplifier.

[disneyjoe7]

Ok, I think I will look for an good used amp, to add to my system.

Any brand I should look for ?

[dorokusai]

That is such an open ended question, I barely want to get involved.

The first step here, is to set a price range, because that whole question, with the resulting answers, can get wacky. If you are not opposed to used gear, www.audiogon.com has some real nice choices, that would allow you to get in a higher end bracket.

[organ]

What's your budget on the amp? You might want to look for an integrated tube amp. The 800i and tubes is very, very musical. I'm telling you, the 800i's and tubes can really sing. I prefer the sound of my 800i with tubes over the LSi9 powered by a NAD amp.

Maurice

[Zero]

DisneyJoe,

Onkyo has quite a loyal following, you will find that many members here proudly tote the gear.

It appears as if you want to take things to the next level. The receiver you have was never made for absolute critical listening in 2 channel mode, so you may be looking at re-approaching how you wish to design this rig of yours.

Seperates *ie: pre amplifier / amplifier * is usually the recommended way to travel, but its not the only way. You can also purchase real nice intergrated amplifiers.

As Mark (dorokusai) suggested, you need to begin with a price range. Set an absolute limit on what you are willing to spend. Then go from there. Just for reference, here are the names of some brands to look out for:

NAD
AMC
ROTEL
ADCOM
CARVER
PARASOUND
B&K

...and much much more..

One piece of advice .... before you go out and start buying on blind faith - get out and demo all the gear you possibly can from local (assuming you have any) hi-fi shops. Its best to listen to the gear first before you take the plunge. You end up saving money that way, and you know what you are getting...

As for "musical". Difficult to define. Each person feels a certain sound is "musical". Lets just put it this way, its whatever gets your foot tapping...you listen to the music, and not the gear. It just depends on what gear will take you there..

You are just beginning my friend - - - take your time... have patience, and learn!

Sean

[disneyjoe7]

Sorry I have to agree about the open ended question.

The question should be, should I be looking for an amp that has input gain adjustment ?

I looking at an used amp that doesn't have adjustment, and thinking I would / may have a level problem. Some amps seem to spec for 1.25 or 1.5 volt for full rated power, but my 898 says 1 volt ? Just more confusing here for me.

[dorokusai]

Don't get too caught up in the information. Just set a comfortable price level for your wallet, and let the forum know what it is....then some recommendations will be made.

Input level bias/volume adjustment is certainly a nice feature, but by no means neccesary unless you are running speakers, with different sensitivity and specifications.

I ran Parsound HCA-1500A's with adjustable gain, but had zero use for that feature, due to the fact I was running 2CH(Stereo) only. Same situation would apply to my current 2CH amplifier.

Sydney's Dad(Polk Audio forum user), however, has a classic example of the advantage of adjustable gain output. He is planning on using 4 Sony ES amps, to run 2 different Polk speakers...this may be helpful in fine tuning them at reference levels or below.

[disneyjoe7]

My price level is about $800, used.

[reeltrouble1]

Hello DisJoe,

I understand about Sound Advice, went to the one near me in Jacksonville, Fl. and I think the salesman got fired from Circuit City;)

I started much the same as you with the Onk, they do a great job with HT but 2 ch is not their forte, I have gone to separate amp and although it is seven channel amp my 2 ch listening experience has improved using the Direct mode on the ONK thereby passing all of the processing and sending the signal to just the front speakers. Things are definately better, however, I still plan to upgrade the pre/pro since things are still just a little to "bright" for me, listening fatige usually occurs after 1.5-2 hr. depending upon volume level.

You can get a lot of really good quality used 2 ch amps for 800 over on audiogon, but the problem is you cannot usually hear them before you buy, it is a process, but I try to enjoy it and not be hasty. You might want to get a really good 2ch amp and use your ONK as the pre/pro for a while. You could add a 5 channel amp later to go to 7.1 if you want to or just stay 2ch and use the receiver for the rest of your needs.

I think your speakers are fine for now and would put the money into seperate pieces.

The brands previously mentioned are all good choices they are quality equipment in the same general class, they may sound somewhat different from each other but not necessarily better, just different.;)

[disneyjoe7]

Ok, here what I'm thinking now.

Adding a ADCOM 5802 amp used for say $850, wiring with Signal cables :p (think I'm be happy with that).

All above will be wired to my Onkyo preamp output / using the pure audio mode for 2 channel. If this doesn't please me in the future perhaps a ADCOM preamp before amp bypassing the onkyo for my CD player.

For the record i'm happy with the HT mode with Polk / Onkyo / Servo 15 :cool:

[Loud & Clear]

I'm not particularly fond of the 800is without a sub, if that's what you're talking about.

[disneyjoe7]

>I'm not particularly fond of the 800is without a sub, if that's what you're talking about.<

No, but maybe i'm missing something. I listen to my CD player 4 / 5 hours a day with the RT-800i's only. Onkyo pure audio mode to me sounds best. The pure audio mode shuts down all other electronics in the receiver and shuts off sub output. In stereo mode will work sub, but colors music too much for me.

Or is it that Servo 15 is too large for RT-800i's can never find a level / setting that I like for HT & 2 channel music?

:confused:

[Loud & Clear]

I always had that problem too, but after reading some advise from 'tha docta', I was able to get the sub dialed in nicely for all listening modes. I started off by adjusting the preamp (Denon 2802) gain for my subwoofer to -7 (-5 for DD & DTS) on a -10 to +10 scale and adjusting the volume on the sub's plate amp to just about the halfway mark. Receiver's crossover at 80Hz. Of course placement is also a huge issue, but I found that corner loading it in the right/front of the room produced fine results. The 800is produce a quality midrange and high, just keep them from attempting much below 80Hz and and integrate that sub properly; if you can accomplish that, they be 'musical'.

[disneyjoe7]

Onkyo 2 channels lets say fair.

2 channel stereo OK in pure audio, sucks in stereo mode. LFE works only in stereo mode, not pure audio. Like the sound of Pure Audio, but not stereo. So with the sub issue, hooked up the sub to right preamp output, like that maybe because i hear it in PA mode. So how should i hook up the sub on an onkyo 898?

Sub Paradigm Servo 15 with X-30 control.

[VR3]

Disney,
If you're willing to give something a try. I will let you in on a setup thing.

If your receiver has preouts, buy a 2 channel amp and buy some bookshelfs like the RT5 or RT35i and wire them up, and use them on the receiver amps, and the 800i on the seperate amp, turn the bookshelf upside down and turn them on at the same time. I have never tried this with receiver amps and a seperate amp. My suggestion would be to find an Onkyo amp for this if you decide to try it, but I use Adcom amps for this. Anyways, try it out. I did this to solve my problems with the RTi70, you might like it as well.

[dorokusai]

Or just not try that idea at all.

[ken brydson]

Originally posted by dorokusai
Or just not try that idea at all.

AMEN!!

[LuSh]

What kind of source are you using? You might be surprised how much of a difference a simple dedicated CD player could make. Why waste money if your source is the weakest link?

Just a thought.

[Tour2ma]

Back on topic...

The 800's are not high on my list of 2ch Polks.

[VR3]

Originally posted by dorokusai
Or just not try that idea at all.

:rolleyes: Yall the most stubborn people I know. Two people have seen the light! Juice21 and I, we are the ONLY people on this forum that isnt scared to try something new????????????????????????????????????? Yall will stack 2-3-4 centers across your front stage but wont stack speakers for your mains? ok...

anyways, back on topic

[disneyjoe7]

>Back on topic...

The 800's are not high on my list of 2ch Polks.<

Ok so what do you suggest ?

Equipment used in HT

L-R polk RT-800i's

C polk CS-400i

SL-SR polk RT-600i's

Sub Paradigm servo-15

Onkyo 898

[Zero]

I am going to be as straight-foward as possible.....

Disney, you have a killer HT rig. Very difficult to beat for the money. Onkyo was made for theater, as are the Polks you have.

But none of the gear you have, except for maybe the Servo-15 (which Ive never heard), is suited for critical listening. It appears as if your critical listening tastes go beyond that of what you have now.

Go to some hifi shops, and demo your ass off. See what it is that tickles your fancy. Dont just wait for someone to make the decision for you, you make it for yourself.

[Loud & Clear]

Originally posted by disneyjoe7
>Back on topic...

The 800's are not high on my list of 2ch Polks.<

Ok so what do you sugguest ?

Equipment used in HT

L-R polk RT-800i's

C polk CS-400i

SL-SR polk RT-600i's

Sub Paradigm servo-15

Onkyo 898

If your receiver's pre is THAT bad, that simply switching from direct to stereo makes such a disturbing difference in sound, and it isn't about the sub's integration (which we discussed), then you need a new receiver. The 800is sound nice when they aren't asked to reproduce anything below 80, or so, Hz. Or maybe you should try another speaker instead, one that doesn't muddy up when played "full range."

There's nothing wrong with the way the 800is express mids and highs, objectively, unless you want to say that a great many $1,000 and under speakers aren't "musical."

[HBombToo]

The 800i is the best speaker ever built and if you don't have a pair I feal bad for ya;)

HBomb

[disneyjoe7]

Ok sorry for the hand holding here.

I'm not sure what I should do, but maybe your right I need to make the decision. Thanks I do think for the money this setup ROCKS :p

My 2 channel taste have changed, getting older maybe? But not too old that I don't like to ROCK the house.

So I don't wish to put money where it will not make the most sense. If the RT-800i's are not real good 2 channel speakers it's ok. But if it's best to add a nice amp or Zone 2 my self to another room in this house for my 2 channel needs. This is the big picture so to speak. It was all I was trying to do sorry.

With a 250 CD collection I don't wish to redo so Zone 2 from the Onkyo maybe best. Or AMP. Or Speakers. OR?

[VR3]

*sigh*

No one listens to me........

I've never owned the RT800i, but I own the RTi70 - if their performance is similar, I RECOMEND you buy 2 2 channel amps or a 4 channel amp and STACK a speaker on top of them. For all thats great! It does SO much for the speaker, sound wise. The mids greaten, the soundstage greatens, the highs are sweeter (which is the top reason why I do it) and the entire setup just sounds......FULLER!

Juice21 tried it with the RT35i and RT800i and swore by it!

I've tried it with the RT35i and RTi70, RT5 and RTi70 and I want to try other combos. I hope to get ahold of a pair of RTi6 in the near future to give a test run.

[dorokusai]

I think he has already stated that his listening needs are beyond what he now has experienced....namely the RTxxi series. The stacking of speakers is not anywhere close to a fix, for this issue, why keep bringing it up? I am sorry, I do not subscribe to a 2 person experience of "Audio Nirvana".

Disney - I think your Zone 2 idea is a good one. It utilizes your existing equipment and allows you to set up another listening area. That being the working idea, I would suggest a separate amplifier for that room or area. If you are a Polk fanatic, like most on board, I would recommend checking out the LSi series to satisfy your changing ears. They are suited for critical listening and given proper amplification, should take care of your every need.

Just an idea.

[disneyjoe7]

*sigh*

No one listens to me........

Ok, You have my attention...

But maybe if RT35i are better stereo speakers, I may do this put them in another room and leave my HT alone.


If I did this then the AMP idea is dead.

Money does play into all this.

[VR3]

Mark,
You've never heard it. Your opinion to me means little.

If you cant get amps and the speakers, its not worth the try. Know what I mean?

Check out some Polk Audio CRS+, SDA 2b --- etc

PS - Mark the above isnt meant as bad or anything, but you've been rocking the stacking boat the entire time it's been ever mentioned and you've never heard it. So I don't see why you talk about it?

To disney -- Try to go for a NAD amp, or an Adcom amp, or AMC, or Rotel, etc etc etc --- anywhere from 100-200 watts.

Adcom GFA-545 (100 watts) sells from 200-250 shipped
Adcom GFA-535 (60 watts) sells from 120-170 shipped
Adcom GFA-555 (200 watts) sells from 350+

[disneyjoe7]

>I would recommend checking out the LSi series to satisfy your changing ears<

Ok so I like the looks of LSi9's are these midrange open as they say love to hear these, but CC is not the place and I think Polk messed up with this one CC thing.

[danger boy]

i had a big fat burrito for lunch today. :p

[dorokusai]

Trey - I don't need to hear it, its common sense that should dictate a more in-line response to Disney's questions. I continue to comment because you have it in your head that it is a solution, it is not. Stack away, I don't care if it turns your speaker into a CES showpiece. I won't comment on your grand theory anymore Kid.

Disney - Get some information from the local LSi owners, they will be able to offer you enough information, that all you will need to sew it up...would be a good demo. I have a basic experience with them , but was definetly impressed with their clarity and midrange reproduction. The amount of bass that is created, belies their size, its very decent. There may even be a Polkie that is nearby, and would offer a demo to you.

It is a shame that CC doesn't offer them, but just imagine a great speaker in a bad venue. They would just screw up the demo anyways.

I suggest LSi9 with a nice high current, high power amplifier for your zone 2 listening.

[Loud & Clear]

Stacking is a novelty act. I've stacked, and it may be neato keen for a day or two, and look coolio, but it won't sound natural or coherent and I think most people would decide to unstack.

I agree that in a 'pure music' mode, that the 800is are going to be too muddy in the lows to sound true. Find some 55i's, they're much tighter and you'll maintain your home theater balance. But then it also sounds like you just hate your receiver's preamp, so then there's that problem with every mode other than 'pure music' mode.

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Loud & Clear
Find some 55i's, they're much tighter and you'll maintain your home theater balance.

I agree!

HBomb

[disneyjoe7]

>I agree that in a 'pure music' mode, that the 800is are going to be too muddy in the lows to sound true. Find some 55i's, they're much tighter and you'll maintain your home theater balance. But then it also sounds like you just hate your receiver's preamp, so then there's that problem with every mode other than 'pure music' mode.<

No preamp is OK, but in Pure Audio mode it will shut off LFE output. This can be fixed by rewiring X-30 to L-R pre outputs. But this right now hurts 800i's as we all know they don't like <50hz very well. So an amp is a must when wired like above.:mad:

On the other hand 2 channel improved some with the sub working. :p

[Tour2ma]

Glad to read of the improvement...

I do think your Zone 2 approach is worth exploring. I also like the suggestion to look into the SDA CRS's. I was very impressed with these "little" SDA's at TX PolkFest II.

[disneyjoe7]

>I also like the suggestion to look into the SDA CRS's. I was very impressed with these "little" SDA's at TX PolkFest II<

Ok are these "old" if so I just read a review and yes that's what I looking for:D SWEET

[dorokusai]

The SDA option is always a given in Polkland. I was also impressed with how good they sounded.

[disneyjoe7]

Just what is SDA ? Are these just old ? Does polk make anything like this now ?

Newbie in Polkland..:eek:

[VR3]

Stereo Dimensional Array

Great imaging, musical speaker -- gigant mother crackers

[disneyjoe7]

Ok, hate to ask Love my Polk and will like to support them.

When I do a search for SDA CRS speakers and find this Quote.

>Creating a room full of musician's playing in "specific" places in front of me! <

Ok this is what I feel I’m missing so does any thing sound like these made by Polk today?

[F1nut]

Sadly Joe.......no.

There is a rumor that one day soon they will be back, but until then there are plenty of good used ones available.

[dan t]

Ok, I think I will look for an good used amp, to add to my system.


Yeah, you should check out E-bay for a Carver CM-1090 to start with. Hurry, before I snatch them all up. ;)

Dan

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by dan t
Yeah, you should check out E-bay for a Carver CM-1090 to start with. Hurry, before I snatch them all up. ;)

Dan

I had a 1090 for over 10 years and it matched perfectly with my 8T's. Very good integrated and may it rest in peace:(

HBomb

[disneyjoe7]

Ok polk doesn't make any SDA now but.....

>>Creating a room full of musician's playing in "specific" places in front of me! <

Ok this is what I feel I’m missing so does any thing sound like these made by Polk today?<<

Does polk make any speaker that acts like this "specific" places in front of me! The LSi anything?

PS was answered before just a little unclear sorry.

[Tour2ma]

dj7,

Non-SDA speakers are limited to setting their soundstage in the the space bounded by the two speakers' physical location. This is due to your ability to locate where your speakers are by the time delay involved in the sound reaching the ear on the opposte side of your head. That is, the right speaker's output reaches your right ear a split second before it reaches your left ear and vice versa. This phenomenon is called interaural crosstalk.

SDA's employed added drivers and passive electronics in their crossovers to generate soundwaves that cancel inaural crosstalk. Once done you can no longer identify the speakers' location (at least it's not as easy). The effect is that the speakers no longer "confine" the soundstage, thus "filling the room with musicians".

All speakers, be they SDA or not, image to some degree. How well they image is determined by:
- the proper time allignment of the drivers (something Polk is rather well-known for); and
- their proper set up in a given listening space.

Once the purchase is made, your task is to play with your 800's set-up to get the most our of them you can. PLay with their spread, their distance from side and rear walls, and their toe-in. Chose a relatively simple piece of music (less to keep track of) and listen repeatedly to it. Note changes, for better or worse after each move.

You may not be able to "fill the room", but you may be able to get more out of your rig than you now are. If you optimize, but still feel like something's lacking, then maybe seek out some SDA's.

BTW, Carver developed what he dubbed the Sonic Holography circuit. It also cancelled interaural crosstalk.

[disneyjoe7]

Well the SDA is something I'm looking for as far as the sound goes. But their size is something I couldn't live with. So still not sure if an amp would improve this with or without speakers different then the 800i's. Or move to another part of house with something else.

BTW will have some pixs to help where I'm at still working on posting them some how.

[Tour2ma]

Now I'm not sure what you are looking for either...

SDA's came in all sizes...

[disneyjoe7]

Well I like my RT-800i's, also like the size of small book shelf speakers. I seen some SDA speakers large much bigger than tower or book shelf speakers. Did polk make any small SDA speakers what models do I need to find so I can buy a set.

If I do use SDA or something else, I will add a receiver or amp / amp & preamp for these speakers in another room to enjoy music.


Or if any speaker that would work with RT series I could move 800 to back add new to front / sell the 600's. Don't think any SDA would work for what I use now. So SDA speakers would be used in another room, maybe garage toooooooo big.

Like what I read of SDA CRS but just don't have the room & wife will just kill me. So it could be wife or speakers :eek:

[Tour2ma]

CRS were the smallest of the SDA's.... bookshelf size.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3075707207&category=14991

[jdhdiggs]

Disney: I have the RT800's and when we set them up on Russman's amp. The 800's sounded completely different than coming off of my reciever. I'd imagine you would have a similar experience. See if you could demo some high amperage amps on your zone 2 and see if that makes a difference. 200W/channel would be my recommendation, but 100W on a real amp is realistially more than enough (Probably..)

[disneyjoe7]

If funds work out, I would like to pick up an used Bryston 300w or maybe an Adcom 5802 ?? But I think I would like the Bryston better. Need to hear this amps in person first :cool:

[dorokusai]

I would choose the Bryston, it is sonically better than the Adcom IMO.

[disneyjoe7]

I do think Transistor's sound better in amp's than do FET's, at least that's my thinking.

I like the price of the FET over the Trans, but deep down I know what will put a smile on my face when pushing those 800i's.