HK Bi-Amping - First Impressions

[Early B.]

Got my HK PA 2000 amplifier yesterday and wanted to give my first impressions. Based on the feedback from this forum, I bi-amped my fronts (Rti70's), running the highs to the receiver (HK 525) and the lows to the amp. I haven't had much time to play music and movies to really test it out, but as soon as I put in a CD, the sound was much more dynamic. The soundstage increased so much that 2-channel playback sounded like surround sound. Bass was tightened up. Songs that sounded wimpy (even with a PB1-ISD) now have much more authority. In addition, I didn't expect to hear another entire level of detail. (My wife likes it, too.)

Then I switched up and put in a DTS demo disk. Once again, there was a significant improvement in sound. More bass, more dynamic, more of everything. In fact, I could literally feel the difference. Awesome.

To sum up, I was choking my speakers by feeding them only 70 watts max from the receiver. The Rti70's are far more capable of a fuller, richer sound than I had ever known. Prior to a few days ago, I didn't even know how to bi-amp, but fellas on this forum explained it, I did it, and I'm glad I did.

No more upgrades for a while. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy what I have.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

I knew you'd notice quite a difference, glad to hear it...

[disneyjoe7]

Well haven't got mine hook yet, need to move some equipment around first to make room.

From your post I may have to call in sick for the time needed, and the improvement you have heard. Well worth the $ for that AMP.

[Early B.]

No more upgrades for a while. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy what I have.

OK, maybe I spoke too soon. Please forgive me. I'm thinking about purchasing another HK amp, but I'm not sure what the best use would be. I see four options:

1. One amp for each front speaker
2. Power the center channel speaker
3. Power the rears (Rti38's)
4. Do nothing.

Any suggestions?

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Early B.
OK, maybe I spoke too soon. Please forgive me. I'm thinking about purchasing another HK amp, but I'm not sure what the best use would be. I see four options:


2. Power the center channel speaker


Any suggestions?

I say Option 2 will be most noticable. What center do you have? sorry for not knowing but my 400i sings in biamp mode.

HBomb

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Early B.
OK, maybe I spoke too soon. Please forgive me. I'm thinking about purchasing another HK amp, but I'm not sure what the best use would be. I see four options:

1. One amp for each front speaker
2. Power the center channel speaker
3. Power the rears (Rti38's)
4. Do nothing.

Any suggestions?
Nevermind previous post...I'm retarded, see you have the HK 525

Option 1 is not really an option with the PA2000 becuase it is not bridgeable into 1 chanel. i suppose you could split the signal coming out of the preamp outs on the receiver and run each channel to two amps and then use each amp to bi-amp the speakers, but I'm not sure about loss of sound quality...even if you could get this to work, I don't think an extra 30 WPC on the fronts will do much for you...

If you can bi-amp the center, I'd agree that would be the best move.

I'd rule out option 3, you really probably don't need more power back there unless you have big speakers back there...

[Early B.]

My center is a Csi40.

[Tour2ma]

And another one awakens to the fact that added power is not just about added volume...

EB,
Glad to read you are happy with the new addition.

As for your next move... Are you really sensing something lacking in the center channel now? If yes, have you recalibrated your HT since adding the new 2000?

[Early B.]

As for your next move... Are you really sensing something lacking in the center channel now? If yes, have you recalibrated your HT since adding the new 2000?

Yes, I the auto calibration feature on my HK 525 increased the levels on the back and surround speakers. The Csi40 is an excellent speaker, but what I'm hoping to gain by acquiring an amp for the center channel is a similar improvement in dynamic and detailed sound that I got for the fronts. So I'll go from using 70 watts from the receiver to 200 watts from a dedicated HK pA 2000 amp to power the Csi40. I don't anticipate the amp costing more than $200 shipped used or refurbed.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Early B.
Yes, I the auto calibration feature on my HK 525 increased the levels on the back and surround speakers. The Csi40 is an excellent speaker, but what I'm hoping to gain by acquiring an amp for the center channel is a similar improvement in dynamic and detailed sound that I got for the fronts. So I'll go from using 70 watts from the receiver to 200 watts from a dedicated HK pA 2000 amp to power the Csi40. I don't anticipate the amp costing more than $200 shipped used or refurbed.
I think you may see a difference when bi-amping that center, but I feel pretty confident in saying that you won't see NEAR the improvement that you did when you bi-amped the front channels, as that CSi40 is no where near the power hungry beast that the 150s are...

That being said, if you've got an extra $200 or so laying around, why not...

[Tour2ma]

Agree with what Pm said...

[disneyjoe7]

Well got mine hook up also, the same way AVR feeding Tweeter / Mid with the AMP feeding the Woofers. Just I would have to change to 70 watts max from the receiver to 110 watts.

Other then this I agree 110%.





Originally posted by Early B.
To sum up, I was choking my speakers by feeding them only 70 watts max from the receiver. The Rti70's are far more capable of a fuller, richer sound than I had ever known. Prior to a few days ago, I didn't even know how to bi-amp, but fellas on this forum explained it, I did it, and I'm glad I did.

No more upgrades for a while. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy what I have.

[Early B.]

I think you may see a difference when bi-amping that center, but I feel pretty confident in saying that you won't see NEAR the improvement that you did when you bi-amped the front channels, as that CSi40 is no where near the power hungry beast that the 150s are...

I don't have 150's. I have 70's. The 70's aren't considered to be power hungry, but when they got some extra juice, they really started to sing.

[HBombToo]

The 40i will bring a whole new dimension to the dialog after you complete the biamp.

If stretched for parts I would put the 70's back to single amp use and biamp the center and put on a favorite movie for a test drive.

1/4twin

[Mike682]

Originally posted by Early B.
Yes, I the auto calibration feature on my HK 525 increased the levels on the back and surround speakers. The Csi40 is an excellent speaker, but what I'm hoping to gain by acquiring an amp for the center channel is a similar improvement in dynamic and detailed sound that I got for the fronts. So I'll go from using 70 watts from the receiver to 200 watts from a dedicated HK pA 2000 amp to power the Csi40. I don't anticipate the amp costing more than $200 shipped used or refurbed.


one call has the pa 2000 for under $200.00 new, here is the link.....

http://ww3.onecall.com/About_00001000_22_68_0_18_0_0.htm

[Early B.]

Thanks, Mike. Just ordered it today. It should arrive by the end of this week. I'll post a thread on it's performance with my Csi40.

[Teejai]

I have a pair of RTi6s for my fronts, would bi-amping give me much of an improvement or would I be better off putting that money towards a tower like the RTi8?

[disneyjoe7]

My vote would be RTi8 over an AMP.

Then if you wanted to Bi-Amp the RTi8 yes.

Just my $.02







Originally posted by Teejai
I have a pair of RTi6s for my fronts, would bi-amping give me much of an improvement or would I be better off putting that money towards a tower like the RTi8?

[hamzahsh]

HK 525 has already a lot of power on its own, I don't know why you bought an extra 2-channel AMP. If you run your speakers to small setting and X-over them @ 80hz and send full bass to your sub you'll get great results. Also BI-WIRE all of your speakers and you'll get a fuller sound. Make sure there levels are calibrated well.

I have a Yamaha RX-V1400 and thats what I have done. IMO Bi-Amping would be a great thing to feed more power hungry speakers especially 4 OHM capable. Bi-Wiring is great for 8 OHM speakers.

My 2 cents!

[hamzahsh]

Originally posted by Teejai
I have a pair of RTi6s for my fronts, would bi-amping give me much of an improvement or would I be better off putting that money towards a tower like the RTi8?

Get RTi8 'cause it has 2 mid/bass drivers and better bass venting system. It will handle anything you throw in without any problem and BI-WIRE them for fuller sound.

BTW I use RTi6 for my back surrounds.
:D

[Early B.]

HK 525 has already a lot of power on its own, I don't know why you bought an extra 2-channel AMP. If you run your speakers to small setting and X-over them @ 80hz and send full bass to your sub you'll get great results. Also BI-WIRE all of your speakers and you'll get a fuller sound. Make sure there levels are calibrated well.

Not so. I run my speakers on small, have them crossed over at 80hz, have my system calibrated, AND I had them bi-wired before adding the amp. Nevertheless, there was a significant improvement in sound when I bi-amped the fronts.

[hamzahsh]

Originally posted by Early B.
Not so. I run my speakers on small, have them crossed over at 80hz, have my system calibrated, AND I had them bi-wired before adding the amp. Nevertheless, there was a significant improvement in sound when I bi-amped the fronts.

I think that BI-AMPING only fronts is not a justice for other speakers. Especially when you watch DVDs. Do you notice the difference in the sound quality between other channels. Also do you listen to SACD and DVD-A and have you noticed fronts being more powerful than rest of your speakers?

Since you BI-AMPED your fronts how about getting a 5-channel AMP and BI-AMP rest of the speakers. OR you prefer 2-channel AMP especially for CDs.

[Early B.]

I think that BI-AMPING only fronts is not a justice for other speakers. Especially when you watch DVDs. Do you notice the difference in the sound quality between other channels. Also do you listen to SACD and DVD-A and have you noticed fronts being more powerful than rest of your speakers?

You're correct. My main interest in bi-amping the fronts was for 2-channel music. I don't prefer to listen to SACD or DVD-A.

However, I just ordered an amp for my center channel. It will be here Thursday and I'll let you know what kind of contribution it makes.

Nevertheless, once I calibrated the system for 7.1 channel playback, there was no real need to get another amp. I'm getting it because they're inexpensive and I'm doing some experimentations. My hypothesis is that a separate amp pumping 200 watts into the center channel will improve our movie watching experience. If all goes well, I may decide to get another amp for the rears (Rti38's) at some point in the future. At $200 ea. NIB for a 100 wpc amp, can't beat it.

[hamzahsh]

How about considering OUTLAW 7100 AMP 7 X 100watts all channels driven for only $899. I love this AMP because of its price and performance. I've read great reviews about this AMP. I'm also a 2-channel music lover like you and not interested in SACD and DVD-A at this moment.

Right now, I'm enjoying my Yamaha RX-V1400 and satisfied with its all in one performance but If I've to buy an AMP in future sometime I'll definely go for OUTLAW 7100 and BI-WIRE all my speakers to it and run my Yamaha 1400 as a PRE/PRO.

;)

[nemos2]

I will have to agree with Hamzahsh.

The outlaw amps are rock solid products. I run an outlaw 755 amp, and love it. I would not trade it in for the world. The outlaws offer a great product at a great price.

If you are still looking, I think that there are outlaw Mono blocks for sale in the forum.....check them out.

[disneyjoe7]

Ok, I too Bi-Amp'd my front speakers (but they are RTi150's) Love it, and like the music openness. Also using the HK PA-2000 amp. I thinking in the future down the road some doing this.

Current setup Onkyo 898 110w per channel AVR.

RTi150's /Front Bi-Amp'd woofers with PA-2000

CS400i / Center

RT800i / Rear surrounds

Future ;)

Adding a Outlaw 7x200 watt amp.

Then this as a setup.

RTi150's / Front Bi-Amp'd with 4 channels of Outlaw.

CS400i / Center Bi-Amp'd with 1 channel of Outlaw /Center of AVR

RT800i / Rear's Bi-Amp'd with 2 channels of Outlaw woofers / the PA-2000 amp bridged feeding the tweeter & mid speakers.

Only if I had the $ to play with.

[Early B.]

I watched a movie this evening for the first time with the bi-amp configuration. Geez, it's much more incredible than I orgiginally indicated at the beginning of this thread. The sound was absolutely captivating. The rears and surrounds appear to be receiving more juice. They are much more involved in contributing to the sound, and it sounds much more like "surround sound." It was like I was in the middle of the movie. More detail in the rears, as well. I was amazed. Didn't think it could get much better than what I already had.

I say go for the Outlaws or whatever other brand of amp you choose and be prepared to be blown away (literally).

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Early B.
I watched a movie this evening for the first time with the bi-amp configuration. Geez, it's much more incredible than I orgiginally indicated at the beginning of this thread. The sound was absolutely captivating. The rears and surrounds appear to be receiving more juice. They are much more involved in contributing to the sound, and it sounds much more like "surround sound." It was like I was in the middle of the movie. More detail in the rears, as well. I was amazed. Didn't think it could get much better than what I already had.

I say go for the Outlaws or whatever other brand of amp you choose and be prepared to be blown away (literally).

Did this include your center biamped? I have not heard back from ya bud?

HBomb

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by HBombToo
Did this include your center biamped? I have not heard back from ya bud?

HBomb

I think the PA2000 is a 4 channel x 45 or you can bridge it to 2 channel x 100. I assume he's doing the 2 channel bridge. I could be wrong though, its been awhile since I looked at that amp.

[Early B.]

No, it didn't include the center channel bi-amped.

I've got the PA 2000s in bridged mode.

Just hooked up the center channel with its own 2000. I haven't had a chance to give my impression on it yet because I need to watch a couple more DVDs with it. My initial impression in watching T2 was that it didn't make much difference. But then I put in Black Hawk Down today and there was noticeable improvement. However, I can't tell how much of this difference is attributable to the bi-amped center channel or the bi-amped fronts.

I should have a follow-up in a few days.

[HBombToo]

Cool

HBomb

[Early B.]

OK, I've had a chance to listen to excerpts from a few more action movies (thanks to my DTS Demo disk) to check out the bi-amping of the center channel. I'll say right off the bat that the difference is not a dramatic one. I was listening for greater depth in the dialogue, especially during busy action scenes. I was also listening for detail and a broader front stage. What I found was slightly more detail, more syllabence (sp.), a bit more dynamic presence. There was also a noticeable increase in bass during action scenes.

Overall, there isn't a "knock your socks off" difference for movies. Since I don't listen to music in surround sound, I didn't check that out. However, I would surmise that the difference would be greater for music listening. I may need to do some tweaking and let the amp burn-in, and I may hear more improvement over time.

My recommendation would be to pursue bi-amping your center channel, but it should be considered a nice tweak once you've exhausted other methods for upgrading your sound (good speakers, nice receiver, high quality sources, placement optimization, interconnects, Hsu or SVS sub, bi-amping the fronts, etc.). To me, it was worth the money I spent ($197 plus shipping for a NIB HK amp -- 200 watts feeding the center channel).

[Mike682]

To me, it was worth the money I spent ($197 plus shipping for a NIB HK amp -- 200 watts feeding the center channel).

Earlyb, did you pick it up at onecall?

While on the topic of adding amplifiers, I was wondering why manufacturers mostly put preamp outs on more expensive models and not the entry level units?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

So how do you have the amp hooked up to the center?

[Sami]

Guys, a little question...

I'm planning to run 5 * RTi70 for my surround sound. Should I invest in this 5*80W Carver amp to help out my H/K 7200 or would the 100W be enough for a RTi70? 16-46PCi from SVS will handle mos t of the bass.

http://ww2.onecall.com/About_00001000_22_68_0_24_0_0.htm

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Sami
Guys, a little question...

I'm planning to run 5 * RTi70 for my surround sound. Should I invest in this 5*80W Carver amp to help out my H/K 7200 or would the 100W be enough for a RTi70? 16-46PCi from SVS will handle mos t of the bass.

http://ww2.onecall.com/About_00001000_22_68_0_24_0_0.htm
100WPC of HK power is plenty for the RTi70s, but at the price on the Carver...you might as well pick it up as well...

[Early B.]

I'm planning to run 5 * RTi70 for my surround sound. Should I invest in this 5*80W Carver amp to help out my H/K 7200 or would the 100W be enough for a RTi70? 16-46PCi from SVS will handle mos t of the bass.

Absolutely!!! Get the Carver amp and bi-amp all five speakers.



Earlyb, did you pick it up at onecall?

Yes. Great prices and outstanding customer service. They even called me yesterday to ask me if I had any questions about my amp.



So how do you have the amp hooked up to the center?

The highs on the center channel are hook into one channel and the lows to the other channel.

[disneyjoe7]

Early,

Any update on how you like the Center Bi-Amp'd, or do you need more time with it?

[Sami]

Ok, if I get that Carver (Class A BTW), I'd probably be even better running it to highs and let the H/K handle the lows. How about configuring it, is it just plug-and-play or do I have to adjust the volume to match each other?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Sami
Ok, if I get that Carver (Class A BTW), I'd probably be even better running it to highs and let the H/K handle the lows. How about configuring it, is it just plug-and-play or do I have to adjust the volume to match each other?
Jesus Christ a 5 ch 80WPC Class A amp!!!

If that thing's really runnihg 80 WPC of Class A power into 5 chanels it's got to be a monster...That thing's gonna need lots of juice and is going to run hotter than the blazes of hell...

I have to question the Class A claim a bit at that power and price point, maybe it's some type of proprietary version of Class A, maybe Class AB or something...

[Sami]

"input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode"

http://www.onecall.com/PID_23715.htm

That sucker is huge.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Sami
"input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode"

http://www.onecall.com/PID_23715.htm

That sucker is huge.
Oh I saw the info on that page, just questioning it a bit...

[Sami]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Oh I saw the info on that page, just questioning it a bit...
So should I get it? :D

Still need to find another pair of RTi70's to complete the surround system. That and the Carver would set me back another $600.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Sami
"input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode"

http://www.onecall.com/PID_23715.htm

That sucker is huge.
Actually maybe the 'input circuitry' does operate in Class A mode, but that's only half the story...

The whole idea behind Class A is having the input and output stages open at the same time all the time so that you have a steady flow of 'juice' at all times, as opposed to switching circuitry which basically turns each on and off repeatedly...This is why these things (Class A amps) run really hot and use lots of juice, becuase it's having to 'maintain' a constant flow of current.

I'm sure that it has "input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode", but I don't think that qualifies it as a true Class A amp...I think they just stick that in there becuase people will see Class A and think "Coll Class A is good"

Anyway, I'm sure it's an awesome amp and have been contemplating purchasing one myself...just curious on the Class A statement...

Hell, maybe it is Class A and I'm just way off base...

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Sami
So should I get it? :D

Still need to find another pair of RTi70's to complete the surround system. That and the Carver would set me back another $600.
Yeah sure, it's still a bad ass amp...most of the amps on the market I doubt are true Class A...

[Early B.]

I'm considering purchasing the Carver amp myself. I'd hook up my rears and surrounds with it.

Really don't need it right now, but since it's such a great deal, I could certainly use it in the future when I go to separates for HT.

[Tour2ma]

Pm,
You are correct. That Carver is not a pure class A amp.

Still looks to be a pretty sweet deal.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Pm,
You are correct. That Carver is not a pure class A amp.

Still looks to be a pretty sweet deal.
Well, glad to see I'm not losing my mind...

[disneyjoe7]

From what I know about Amp’s all low level signal areas are Class A. That’s "A" in the amp's input side of things. Like all pre-amps are class A, it's a design where 1 transistor can be used in the signal with the least noise produced. I wish manufactures wouldn't try to confuse people with these deceptive marketing phrases.

[Early B.]

OK, I've had a chance to listen to excerpts from a few more action movies (thanks to my DTS Demo disk) to check out the bi-amping of the center channel. I'll say right off the bat that the difference is not a dramatic one. I was listening for greater depth in the dialogue, especially during busy action scenes. I was also listening for detail and a broader front stage. What I found was slightly more detail, more syllabence (sp.), a bit more dynamic presence. There was also a noticeable increase in bass during action scenes.


UPDATE -- I went into the receiver's setup menu and changed the levels on a couple of the speakers. Then popped in The Last Samuri. Made a sizeable difference. The bi-amped center channel began sounding more "theater-ish". Deeper bass in the voices. More powerful presence. Well worth the investment.

Moral of the story -- don't rely too heavily on auto-calibration.

[jefft1314]

I imagine companies put preouts on their more expensive models because those who buy more expensive receivers probably wish they had the money for preamps/amps. Anticipating that the customer will probably someday want to add amplifiers especially if he picks up powerful speakers, adding preouts to a highend receiver guaranttes that that receiver will stay in that person's house. If you put preouts on a low end receiver they probably wouldn't be used because the amps would be bottlenecked by the processing in the low end models.

Just my.02%