Shoot off your ideas on good equipment... [Archive]

LittleCar_w/12s

04-25-2004, 01:17 PM

Ok here's the deal:
My car got broken into, the guy f'ed up my 6x9's from sony(I'm soo glad), I quoted the cop $35 each, I also need a few more things...
so:
when I get done ripping money outta the theif's dum bass in court, I will need some new toys! :D

Looking for reccomendations on:
1: whether I should go with 6x9's with pole mounted components, or go with maybe 6" mids and get a full set of compenents to put into a custom rear deck (which I'll get $$ for cause he f'ed up my old one).

2: reccomendations on the above, after you state your opinion... keep in mind that I do NOT like anything flashy, and I like dark colors (blue, charcoal, black etc):

3: Amp: While i dont get paid by him for my 700w blowing 6 months ago, I could use sugg's on a good (((SQ))) amp for my 2 old DB 12's. They will run 500RMS and 800Max each (rated.. :D).

4: Deck: I'll be charging him for the full replacement cost of the deck ($400)... should I...
a--- fix the deck with parts for little $$ or
b--- Buy the newest version of the deck, which does mp3's too?

Thanks for input guys, esp. Cody, Neo, True, and anyone else I know, but forget names... Here's a chance to bully each other about what you like and hate :D

-Jerry

LittleCar_w/12s

04-25-2004, 01:18 PM

Also feel free to offer your own stuff here, even though this is not an auction.

exalted512

04-25-2004, 01:23 PM

heres what i would do
id buy a bad ass pair of components for the front
Focal or something like that
get some momo or DB 6.5" coaxials in the back
they have adapters on crutchfield that turn 6x9s into 6.5s or you could just make your own
hifonics amps all around
-Cody

exalted512

04-25-2004, 01:25 PM

oo, and as for the deck--mine is a Pioneer Premier DEH-P940 which is an AWESOME deck
one of the best decks around for under a grand
i got mine off of www.electronicscity.com for $550
they have a new model out, im not sure what it is, but the price for the 940 mightve dropped b/c they have a new model
i HIGHLY recommend that deck, youll never regret paying 550 for it and youll never have to upgrade
-Cody

MacLeod

04-25-2004, 01:59 PM

This would be my recommendations for a SQ system.

This Alpine (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-cV0DN2GzZ1b/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=300&I=500CDA9831&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N) is the head unit of choice under $400. It plays everything and has 3 sets of 4 volt preouts.

For a SQ amp in the moderate price range, I like the Alpine V12 series. This one (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-cV0DN2GzZ1b/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=500MRVT420&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N) puts out 110 rms and is super clean and accurate. I love these amps.

For the subs its gonna get a little more expensive with the Alpines. The only offering they have in the kilowatt range would be one of these (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-cV0DN2GzZ1b/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=130&I=500MRDM1&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N) which puts out 500x1 or 1000x2 for $900.

Now for speakers I would say to definitely go with components over oval or coaxial speakers but to also chuck the rear speakers and go with a sweet set of these (http://www.cartoys.com/cartoys/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=20882). I love Focals and think they are the best sounding speakers you can buy. Im not a big fan of "rear fill" speakers. When you have music coming from too many source points it can muddle the detail a bit, but thats just me.

Well thats about it. That is one of my favorite setups for SQ.

Other recommendations for SQ amps would be Xtant, Orion and JL Audio. Any one of these will be super sweet sounding.

Other speaker nods would go to MB Quart, Diamond Audio and JL Audio.

Im sure Ill get ripped to shreds for the JL and MB picks but :p

LittleCar_w/12s

04-25-2004, 02:23 PM

I'd like to get yall's opinion on US Amps... Heard a lot about them, but havent had the pleasure of working with/installing one.

I love the RF deck, functionality and all, I think I will keep it or get the new model which is a step from old RF9200 to 9220g, the new one is black or charcoal, and runs mp3 as well as the aux in.

Also.. My front sound stage is currently a set of t4's with pole-mount tweets by RF. The spiders are cracked from pumping maybe a whole of the true rms value of the deck which is like 14w (which will be claimed as 30w in a dealer listing but RF has the REAL values.) So I am dissapointed in the RF for now... their speak. and amp quality has gone out the window lately... so if anyone has a suggestion for a T4 for the from, let me know... they are the odd-sized ones that take 2 screws not 4, and are about 3.3/4" wide. I will just have to regret nixing the $65
RF's in the front I guess.

I would still like rear speakers though (I will be building a special rear deck for them that passes the sub power through without eating the components' suspension), and any suggestions on how to improve the sound stage in the front without becoming too bulky. I also have the option of replacing the 4" speaks in the factory slots as well as adding to the deck. (MORE MORE MORE!!)

-Jerry

LittleCar_w/12s

04-25-2004, 02:57 PM

Here's Mine:
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=11670
Only pic I could find :(

Here's the new rf9220, which i don't really like:
http://search.cardomain.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=55&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind%2Ecfg&host_id=42&page_id=990464&query=%2A9220%2A&hiword=%2A9220%2A+
I may put my faceplate on the unit if i get it. :rolleyes:

Or this panasonic looks sweet:
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13863
I'll miss the round vol control :( but it is cirrus ready :)

Or Cody's rec:
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=11984
or the 9400... what's the diff?
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=11282
^^^ WOOW! but it'll be pushin the budget....
(does it have RCA aux inputs or can they be purchased??)

Thanks for input so far..
-Jerry

Edit:
All I can tell on those two last one is that color is diff, and i'd pay $50 for the outputs to be 6v not 4v...

fairlynew

04-25-2004, 03:04 PM

another nice headunit is Pioneer Premier DEH-960MP

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4041_64496605,00.html

you can probably find it for around $500

LittleCar_w/12s

04-25-2004, 03:07 PM

didnt really like the 960, but the 940 suits my style.

Cody... Give me your personal exp with it... you say it's worth it, compare it to the other models, and they look like dirt... geez, but that eats my budget up... grr decisions decisions.

exalted512

04-25-2004, 04:20 PM

i would recommend this unit to ANYONE
it IS one of the best on the market, and 550 is a steal
could you not find it on electronicscity?
theyre authorized dealers of pioneer premier, onlinecarstereo is not
the premier's come with a 2 or 3 yr warranty
thats another difference b/t the 940 and the 9400
for a non-screen deck/it has amazing pictures
it has 4 screen savers: dune buggy, diver, snow skiing, and a space shuttle
amazingly clear
plus it has 6volt pre outs, im not sure if thats RMS or not, but its better than the 4
it has a removable motorized face-plate
you shut the engine off...5 seconds later the face plate comes down and you pull it off, after monday ill try to get some pics up to show you what i mean
ive never had a problem with it
the motorized face plate covers where you put the cd in, thus allowing for a bigger screen plus it keeps dirt out of the cd player part
this thing has so many SQ options its unbelieveable
most pioneer decks come with a bunch of different modes--like dome, theater, studio--it makes it sound like whatever it is you pick
i put it on dome and i **** you not i think im at a concert
its amazing--whenever i play a live cd i put it on the dome option and you can close your eyes and never know you werent at the concert
it has timing delays--
it gives you like 5 different options of what kind of car you have...van, sedan, etc.
you pick that
then you pick where the passengers are
for example if its just you, you pick the front drivers seat
the timing delay makes it to where all the speakers hit you at the exact same time
this is necessary b/c youre not centered in your car, youre off to the side
it also has an auto-equalizer...
you get the radio, it comes with a small mic
you hook up the mic, put it on your headrest, wait 2 minutes and voila, the radio automatically put the settings where the 'norm' is
that in itself is f***ing amazing...lol
truthfully though, i havent used it yet...this summer im going to go to ebay and pick up another mm6 comp. set
i blew out one of my tweeters and currently have a DX tweeter courtesy of vince so my sound stage isnt totally screwed...
but i called polk and they wanted $100 for 1!
wtf?
theyre on crack
i can pick up a whole set on ebay for 170 with a 1 yr warranty...
hell, i might even try to send my old tweeter back and tell em it was one they sent me and it blew...maybe i can get a new one...lol
but anyway after i put the mm6 tweeter in ill do the auto-equalizer thing and report my findings
im not a fan of alpines, never have been, ive heard of too many people having too many problems with them
MTX will advise eclipse
you might want to look into them
they have 8 volt RMS pre outs!
down side--thatll fry some amps...
my brother has an old eclipse HU, straight black with a blue dial...looks killer, i love it, nothing special with the screen, not motorized or any of that
not many options with it, just your basics, but its an awesome deck...
but IMHO, nothing compares to the 940 in the price range, nothing...
-Cody

MTXMAN

04-25-2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by exalted512
MTX will advise eclipse
you might want to look into them
they have 8 volt RMS pre outs!
down side--thatll fry some amps...
my brother has an old eclipse HU, straight black with a blue dial...looks killer, i love it, nothing special with the screen, not motorized or any of that
not many options with it, just your basics, but its an awesome deck...
but IMHO, nothing compares to the 940 in the price range, nothing...
-Cody

i'd say that the two top end eclipse decks will outperform the 940 in sq, the 940 may have more controll options but the eclipse' are known for being some of the absolute best sq decks available, they're kinda ugly and you don't get mp4 without buying the commander advace (rip-off) but the 2nd highest deck comes with 8v non clipping outputs and the top end one (eventually to be my new baby) comes with the option of switching between 8v non clipping of a 16v balanced output, basically the cleanest signal to ever hit an amp... i'm only going to be able to use that output on my usamps 2000x though cause the tube amps won't handle it, going with the 8 on those....

the pioneer with 6v preouts... i'm pretty sure that those are peak... as well as the rating on the 940.. i could be wrong though so don't kill me if i'm mistaken....

so far based on specs, the limited experience i've had with the company and others reviews i have nothing but praise for US Amps, as soon as my TU-600 comes in i'll be able to give you a better appraisal on them so if you can wait a little bit on amps i'll get you my opinion of an actual working setup with a US Amps amp. if you can afford it the us 1000 would power those two subs quite nicely....

i'd recoment pretty much scrapping the crappy little 4" speakers cause you're never going to get much from that hole... you may want to do some custom work (either in the door panels or on the front deck) and put in a 6.5 comp set of good quality... just make sure they're properly powered (you'd get great sq from the usamps tu-600 tube amp at 150x2 @ 4ohm, downside is you won't be able to find it for less than 500 bucks, i'm paying 498.20 w/ tax)

contrary to some other suggestions, go ahead and keep the subs that you have, the old db subs were known for being damn good and in a hatchback you realy don't need something with the power of a Diamond audio TDX or an Adire Bramah... you'd go deaf before you got home.... just get a nice clean amp on them with a good dampening factor and you'll be sitting pretty (hence my suggestion of the us 1000, it'll put out 1000x1 at 2ohms, that's if i'm correct in assuming that the db's are single 4ohm vc's)

here's some links....

http://www.eclipse-web.com/index_cd.html
look at the 8454... looks like they did away with the 16v balanced outs... that's gay....

http://www.usamps.com/
go to 2ch amps and look at the 1000/1000x

http://www.eclipse-web.com/index_e-com.html
the voice controlled eclipse commander advance that can be added to eclipse hu's, it's pretty dang pimp and worth takin a look at

exalted512

04-25-2004, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by MTXMAN
i'd say that the two top end eclipse decks will outperform the 940 in sq
how much can you get them for?
i still say you cant get a better deck for 550 bucks than the 940
eclipse units are meant to be run with equalizers, thats why they dont have many options that deal with that
they also do not pick up FM stations as well as the pioneer does with the super tuner technology
you might also want to look at getting XM if you spend a lot of time traveling
i dont do a lot of traveling but i got it anyway and i am SUPER pleased with it
the only time i listen to FM anymore is in the morning b/c the morning show on my fav. rock station is HILARIOUS
you can listen to them online too... www.c101.com , they even have webcams...lol
and the pioneer deck runs 22x4 RMS
pretty clean power too
dont get like 2000-2001 eclipse model radios, they had a lot of problems with those
-Cody

MTXMAN

04-25-2004, 08:28 PM

i had a price from a dealer last year of 549 for the second best one and anyway, who listens to the radio? lol, cd's for me... and if you want a song but don't want to buy the cd, just check it out from the local library and rip it onto your computer... satalite radio is pretty pimp though

neomagus00

04-26-2004, 12:21 AM

yay for:
-alpine HU (i dunno about the rest, i've heard some stuff on the street about quality control issues)
-eclipse HU (great SQ, but beaten horribly with the ugly stick as a child)
-satellite radio
-components
-Focal (these speak for themselves)
-CDT, if you want awesome sound and want to save a bit on speakers (which is not to say that these aren't incredible)
-hifonics amps for subs; a little less cost for what will be a very subtle difference
-rotary volume control
-tubes for speakers
-balanced outputs
-Diamond for speakers, maybe
-4 channel amps for 2-way components (bi-amping, as long as the xover reaches up high enough for the tweeter)

no to:
-6x9
-mp3s (i dont get it, why not just use the CD? unless, of course, you're a criminal...)

i'd say fix the HU you've got, if you like it, and spend the money elsewhere. then again, the head that cody's been worshipping seems to be pretty good :p.

mbquart speakers do sound very nice, once you get above the first line (discus, if i'm not mistaken).

exalted512

04-26-2004, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by MacLeod
Other recommendations for SQ amps would be JL Audio.

Other speaker nods would go to JL Audio.
it ALMOST slipped by...
JL=Bose but worse...
people who run JL=posers
JL=generally just sucks ass
even LEGACY has rubber surrounds
foam is a thing of the past JL...get rubber surrounds, cut the price in half, then i might consider JL, otherwise ill stick with stuff thats worth the money...
MacLeod, you keep this JL crap up and im going to start a protest against saying JL on this forum unless it has the words "sucks ass" in the same sentence
:D
-Cody

MacLeod

04-27-2004, 07:28 PM

exalted512

04-28-2004, 12:05 AM

you must live in the rich neighborhood...
95% of the ppl ive meant and talked to online all agree theyre way overpriced
they make great stealth boxes---best in the car audio community, but like you said--theyre way overpriced...good thing is you can take the sub out, sell it, and get half of the price you paid for the box back
why?
b/c kids are stupid and think JL is the ****, even though it sucks ass
JL would be really great, but their prices absolutely suck ass
and notice I am in compliance with the long missing 11th commandment
you know...
"THOU SHALL NOT SPEAKETH OF JL WITHOUT THE WORDS SUCKS ASS IN THY SAME SENTENCE"
-Cody

neomagus00

04-28-2004, 12:27 AM

i thought that was from the book of cody, not a commandment?

and you seem to have admitted that jl does sound good, it is just hideously overpriced.

exalted512

04-28-2004, 12:41 AM

no, its the "long lost" commandment
i found it magic markered on a stone outside my house
i can take a pic if you want...lol
ive admitted they are good speakers before
aside from having foam surrounds
but i take price into consideration for it to be a good speaker
if a mm6 set was three thousand dollars, would you still consider it a good component set?
-Cody

geolemon

04-28-2004, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by exalted512
it ALMOST slipped by...
JL=Bose but worse...
people who run JL=posers
JL=generally just sucks ass
even LEGACY has rubber surrounds
foam is a thing of the past JL...get rubber surrounds, cut the price in half, then i might consider JL, otherwise ill stick with stuff thats worth the money...
MacLeod, you keep this JL crap up and im going to start a protest against saying JL on this forum unless it has the words "sucks ass" in the same sentence
:D
-Cody
Being involved in the car audio industry (for a car audio manufacturer that is not JL or affiliated with them), I have to tell you that your words really have no backing, other than in some soft of high-school "what's cool" terms. :rolleyes:

JL makes some tremendously high quality products, and to say that they actually set the benchmark for the industry would normally be JL marketing speak...
...except that they actually do - I can tell you, in the creation of a "super sub", we directly benchmarked against JL's W7, and Adire Audio's Brahma. Simply put, these two subs define the current standards for chassis and suspension technology, and motor capability - with the W7 not far behind in terms of motor capability.
We've also used the W6V2 as a benchmark for new product design.
And we aren't alone.
Many JL products truly are a benchmark, a reference standard - as are other significant industry leaders.

It's silly to think that somehow JL just "magically appeared" at the top...
They legitimately progressed their way to the top, by virtue of quality products and performance, from a little company out of Florida not long ago. I certainly remember them being small.
If they didn't build quality products, they wouldn't be where they are today.
And the quality of their products has improved over the years...
If you compare JL's previous flagship of the mid-90's - the W6 - to the current flagship of today - the W7 - it's amazing, how much the product has improved.

Just to put things in perspective, the original W6 (as functionally obsolete as the design is) competes well against the Momo subs currently on the market.

And the argument against foam surrounds really shows a lack of technical awareness.
Foam surrounds of today are much more durable than the foam surrounds of the turn of the century - if that's what you are comparing. :rolleyes:
I actually still own three 10W6's, that I purchased nearly 9 years ago - and they are still in perfect shape. I had them running off of a PHD2 for fun, last year, in fact. ;)

Rubber surrounds are much more susceptible to changes in temperature, and can be much less resiliant in holding their shape.

In the end, as with anything - it's all in the design.
I can recall some Oz audio subs of the late 90's that I got to play with... they had rubber surrounds... and when you cranked on those subs, the surrounds looked like a ring of jello surrounding the sub. That's not a good thing.

There aren't any functional disadvantages to foam surrounds - so why bash them?

One parting comment...
Often, you hear less experienced enthusiasts bashing certain brands (as an entire entity, usually :rolleyes: )... "____ sucks".
What is this opinion usually based on?
"Well, my friend has a _____ and it sounds like junk"
What's the fundamental flaw in this observation?
Experienced installers will spot it right away -

...the installation makes the install.
Your listening experience is the ultimate culmination of a multitude of electronic devices, their settings, their interconnects...
...and more in the scope of this discussion, an enclosure design that's well suited to the installation goals, and proper execution of the construction and installation/integration into the car.

If you hear something that "sounds like junk", chances are you shouldn't be blaming the product...
...you should be blaming the installer. :p

geolemon

04-28-2004, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by exalted512
you must live in the rich neighborhood...
95% of the ppl ive meant and talked to online all agree theyre way overpriced
they make great stealth boxes---best in the car audio community, but like you said--theyre way overpriced...good thing is you can take the sub out, sell it, and get half of the price you paid for the box back
why?
b/c kids are stupid and think JL is the ****, even though it sucks ass
JL would be really great, but their prices absolutely suck ass
and notice I am in compliance with the long missing 11th commandment
you know...
"THOU SHALL NOT SPEAKETH OF JL WITHOUT THE WORDS SUCKS ASS IN THY SAME SENTENCE"
-Cody
Ignore pricing for a moment - because that's ultimately the decision of the shop selling the product, and the entire distribution chain leading up to it's delivery to their doorstep.
Realistically, JL fits right in with any product sold through a traditional shop via these distribution channels.

Now, ignoring pricing for just a moment (we certainly can, and will come back to it) - what aspects of JL (as an entire entity? :rolleyes: ) don't you think stack up?

Give me some product names, model numbers, specifications... and why you believe they don't stack up.

When we get into areas involving sound accuracy, and SPL - there are some very objective things to look at, the comparison really isn't terribly difficult.

but please - we need something to focus on, some product, some aspect of that product that you don't believe stacks up.

geolemon

04-28-2004, 01:50 PM

Also, coming back to get back on-topic with the thread at hand...

There are a great number of reasons that you actually don't want to run rear fill, particularly in a car (and you can look to dedicated stereo home audiophiles for inspiration, if you want - as opposed to home theater enthusiasts).

Primarily, the fact that the rear speaker locations will have a different pathlength distance to your ears relative to your front speaker locations, and therefore arrival time differences, and therefore a "comb filter" repeating cancellation node effect...
...that doesn't improve sound quality, or output. ;)

Here's an article that helps explain more about the issues at play, and how to deal with them. (http://www.betteraudio.com/geolemon/phasing/phasing.htm)
It's written more or less "in layman's terms", should be an easy and worthwhile read.

I'm not sure how your front stage speakers are installed, but it's possible that they are simply "drop in replacement" type installs, likely in the doors.
Doors are not good acoustical environments... a door - stock - is neither a good enclosure, nor a baffle.
That being the case, the sound off the rear of the speaker can come right around, out the numerous holds in your inner door skin, and cancel out much of the sound coming off the front of the speaker.... because these two sounds are inherently 180 degrees out of phase.

Why is this?
Picture a speaker moving in slow motion:
When the cone moves out, it compresses the air in front of the cone, and decompresses the air behind the cone.
Without an enclosure - or at least a good baffle - the compressed air would simply bleed into the decompressed air, largely cancelling out any sound not pushed forward by simple on-axis momentum.

Let me repeat - the door - stock - is neither a good enclosure, nor a good baffle.

Because wavelengths get longer as frequencies get lower, the cancellations get worse, the lower in frequency you get.
So, a "drop in replacement" speaker might sound fine in the upper frequencies, not cancelling much at all...
...but the same speaker probably doesn't have much midbass at all.
It might even be flapping around terribly when the bass hits - but just can't seem to make much bass output.

The solution isn't to add rear speakers that "handle midbass better"(heck, they may have the same problem!)

The solution is to improve your front speaker install, to prevent these cancellations, improve the midbass of the front speakers that previously hadn't been allowed to work properly.
It's that simple...

I'd spend your budget on improving that front stage, and enjoy the acoustical benefits of having simple empty holes in the rear deck. ;) ...covered with nice, stealth-looking stock grilles of course. :p

exalted512

04-28-2004, 02:00 PM

Ive never said they makes bad products
but when I consider a product to be good, I take price into account
I mean technically, if sony would cut their prices in half, i would consider them good, b/c thats about the price i would pay for something that wouldnt last forever, but sound decent
you will never hear me say the W7 is a bad sub, its an awesome sub, i agree
but they ARE overpriced
how much does the w7 retail at compared to the Brahma, the XXX, or the ED A(i think thats the right one...)?
theyre more than twice the retail last time i checked
living in south texas, ive seen many foam surrounds crack in the great heat we have down here, during the summer it regularly gets into the 130s inside vehicles
and thats NOT counting the humidity
i live 45 minutes from the ocean...
thats why i dont like foam surrounds
ive only seen a few rubber surrounds get "chapped" but never totally cracked
but like i said, i will say they is good when their price somewhat matches their performance
Polk's momo never used to be worth the price, but now that you can get them in a box for $180 off of sounddomain, theyre the best sub in the market IMO for the price
polk is not high end by any means, but for the price, i cant think of anything id rather have
but im not saying they make a bad product by any means, hell, their 5 channel amp is pretty cool
its like 125x2, 25x2, 400x1(those are not exact, but its something to that effect)
i read a lot of your articles chris, youre not someone i want to be arguing with b/c you know a hell of a lot more than i do, hell, ive posted some links to your articles on here
but to tell me that JL is a good product when compared what you pay for it is crazy IMO
-Cody

geolemon

04-28-2004, 03:47 PM

Well, "the price you pay", like I mentioned before, is largely a function of the shop charging it. ;)

I've seen JL being sold anywhere from MSRP (which I personally have always carried an "nobody actually pays MSRP" mentality about myself ;) ) to half of MSRP, which is a big variance.

"what you get" for the dollar is tough too, particularly in light of JL's exceptionally conservative powerhandling ratings...
The literally continually torture-test the subs, doubling the power every hour on the hour. At whatever power level the sub fails on, they cut it in half, and call that RMS. It's really conservative... particularly compared to most other manufacturers.

So, a 300w JL sub would be equivalent to... a 500w sub by someone else?
It's tough to compare things like this.

Some of the things JL makes are a tremendous value...
The XR component set, for one.
You can generally pick that up, authorized, between $300-$350, for a 6.5" set, let's say.
The SQ is tremendous, the smoothness, even across the Xover point, is great. There are certainly other component sets that compete with it - but it's peers all seem to be in the $500-$600 range. That's a good value, IMO.

The amps aren't particularly a good value on a $/watt basis, but they have high-end features to them that other amps don't have... it's not really like comparing apples to apples, or Chevy to Ford... more like BMW to Ford.
Sure, the BMW isn't a good value... but I wouldn't call the BMW owner a "poser". BMW's - much like JL's - get fantastic reviews and industry accolades.

JL makes some good stuff.
JL distributes it through traditional retail channels - that alone adds a big overhead... but JL isn't alone - look at RF and other big-names out there. ;)

Personally, I'm a big fan of the direct-sales approach, such as Elemental, Adire, RE, etc...
They sell no-frills product that's packed with technology, selling it direct, and in doing so, are able to compete with the big guys.
Believe me, I'm with you there!

All I'm saying is, the JL products are high quality...
...their value really depends on the shop you get them from.
Unfortunately, one of those "law of supply and demand" things.
If people are going to pay high prices for them... the shop will charge high prices.;)

exalted512

04-28-2004, 06:36 PM

like i said before, ive never said their subs are bad in quality, but their prices, even online are really bad
if they would sell like adire i think theyd be able to cut their prices drastically
but lets face it, they cant do it, theyre simply too big
maybe if all these kids with rich mommies and daddies would stop paying top dollar for them just because Funk Master Flex puts them in his cars they would go down in price...
until then...JL still sucks
i agree about RF, they are overpriced, but you can still get them for pretty cheap online from authorized dealers
have you heard much about their new power series?
theyve been sucking the last few years and they way RF was talking about their new lines it made it sound like they were "the ****"
I am personally starting to dislike RF as well...I wish now I would have gone with Hifonics instead of RF for my amps, I think i wouldve been happier...my next set of amps are going to be USAmps:D
-Cody

Steve@3dai

04-28-2004, 06:41 PM

Buy Polk? :)

I dunno, maybe it's just me and this is a Polk audio forum ;) hahahaha

MacLeod

04-28-2004, 10:17 PM

Geolemon - You are my new best friend!!

Cody - na, na, na, na, na :p (j/k bro)

And Cody, ya know I love ya man but you routinely call JL products crap as recently as this thread! JL=Bose but worse is pretty harsh! But I dont wanna be a dick and start nit picking (or did I already do that?)

I just want to address the price issue. JL has stuff that spans all price ranges. If you want amps you can start at the E2150 (45x2) for $200, the E4300 (45x4) $300, the E6450 (45x6) for $350 then move into the high end with the Slash series which starts at $400 for the 300/2 (150x2) and goes to $450 for the 300/4 (75x4) all the way up to the big boy 450/4 (150x1&2 + 75x3&4) for $750. On top of that, they have a whole line of mono amps for around the same prices. Now these are not out of line with other high quality amp makers like Xtant, Tru Tech and are actually a good bit cheaper than US Amps!

Subs are the same. They range from the $100 W0's to the $700 W7's. A little something for everyone.

The speakers are my favorite though. I think the $350 XR series (JLs top of the line til the $700 ZR series comes out later this year) are the best looking speakers on the market but they also sound awesome. I consider the XR's to be the only speaker under $400 that could rival the mighty MM6!

Anyways, I think weve argued this to death so Ill shut up now...thats assuming anybody is still reading this! LOL ;)

LittleCar_w/12s

04-29-2004, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by geolemon
Also, coming back to get back on-topic with the thread at hand...

There are a great number of reasons that you actually don't want to run rear fill, particularly in a car ... Primarily, the fact that the rear speaker locations will have a different pathlength distance to your ears relative to your front speaker locations, and therefore arrival time differences, and therefore a "comb filter" repeating cancellation node effect

--- well.. I am looking into the pioneer that adjusts timing. That way the rear speakers are more effective.

Originally posted by geolemon
I'm not sure how your front stage speakers are installed, but it's possible that they are simply "drop in replacement" type installs, likely in the doors. ........ The solution is to improve your front speaker install, to prevent these cancellations, improve the midbass of the front speakers that previously hadn't been allowed to work properly.

--- Man, you just come to houston and help me fit something in that 4" space buried in my dash... or the limited floorspace that would simply eat any power i put through it.

Originally posted by geolemon
I'd spend your budget on improving that front stage, and enjoy the acoustical benefits of having simple empty holes in the rear deck. ;) ...covered with nice, stealth-looking stock grilles of course. :p

--- I am designing a enclosure and deck design geared to direct all the subs' sound energy into the cabin in a linear fashion. It will aslo fine-tune the direction of the rear speakers and include built in enclosures for them.

Well.. I hear what you're saying... just can't do that... I don't really have room in the front for all that speaker, considering I have a little car. I'm not sure what in-the-door speakers would sound like, but given that they would output perpendicular to the front stage at shin-level in my car... what's the advantage over rear speakers???

LittleCar_w/12s

04-29-2004, 07:58 PM

I posted this separate from the one above...

BTW, thanks for all the help. I have gotten lots of ideas. Who woiuld've thought this would become such a long thread?

I like the one cody points out, and don't see a need for 8v or 16v outputs :eek: of the other one. It also includes tuniing for timing as well as no0 needing an external EQ.

I try not to mess with the EQ setings anyway.. I like it flat.. I figure if it was meant to have low bass, high treb.. so be it.. that's what the artist intended... though it is nice to tune it for live presentations say for a hall or concert effect.

Well.. I can use some infor for component speaker sets, and any ideas how to fit some larger things into my front dash.

I will try to get pics of my car's inside, though it is still trashed from the burglary :(

again, thx for help.

LittleCar_w/12s

04-29-2004, 08:03 PM

(again, purposely submitted separately)

I have been away from the board for a few days so... let me catch up with the off-topics here...

I have had a few friend with JL Audio's years back. They are a great sub, but I will mention that they were little richie bitches that ran them....

as for foam surrounds... they are ok, but depend on the environment...

as for rubber surrounds... they need to have good design and be strong... hence a good chemist and designer for the sub. My DB's are a old and good demonstration for good surrounds... still perfectly shaped :cool: .... as for foams, old Kickers and some old RF's from years ago had great foam surrounds. I havent seen the new versions of either so I can't say.

As for RF: I am getting displeased as well... geeze, where did the quality go?

Well that's it for now
-jerry

bknauss

04-29-2004, 11:14 PM

Suggestions:
1. Alpine CDA-7969. Its a "dead head" and can be found for around $350 from most people. The only thing that stinks about it is that it skips on slightly scratched CDs. Eclipse is another line to look at, but you'd have to buy new from an authorized dealer because of their security scheme. You COULD buy a used one on ebay, but the older Eclipses seem to be very flakey.

2. 6.5" components instead of 6x9s. You get a lot more options with round drivers instead of oval ones :)

3. Ditch the rear stage and save the money. Its easier to get good sound and staging from just front speakers instead of sound coming from front and back.

4. I would stay away from Focal since they're overpriced for the sound. They had a pretty huge following a couple years ago, but I think between them being French and being pricey, seemed the popularity died.

exalted512

04-30-2004, 12:22 AM

how about searching for a car like yours on cardomain?
you can give us some links to know what exactly were working with and you might find some good ideas
if you can wait til august ill be about an hour away from the houston area, gas and a meal and id be happy to help ya out
but thats a long time...
-Cody

LittleCar_w/12s

04-30-2004, 11:52 AM

Well, when I go out today, I will try to get pics of the interior up front. I will pop off the cover and show the T-4 mounting hole too, though there is little that fits in there. :(

How many of you really do not use rear speakers?
Also, what would it sound like for passengers in the back seat if I had none?

Also if anyone has pics of a good front-stage install in a small car, feel free to post here.

LittleCar_w/12s

04-30-2004, 12:16 PM

Ok I have pictures... they are huge though... do yall have highspeed or dialup?

if h/s i'll just post them , dialup, I'll edit to make smaller...

I am having trouble with my web-server randomly shutting down the IIS, so I will try to keep it running for you to see the pics, if not, just try again later.

Web address will be: http://village.ivybrook.com/mobileaudio/

If anyone here knows how to fix the random shutdown of IIS on a win2000 server, please let me know... I can't keep it on :confused:

Pics will be up soon....

neomagus00

04-30-2004, 01:14 PM

i personally don't use rear speakers, and it's never seemed to bother passengers before (granted, we're usually talking etc. on the occasions when i have backseat passengers, but whatever).

i like my soundstage and most of my imaging; i can put pics up of where the speakers are if you want. and i drive a pretty small car.

LittleCar_w/12s

04-30-2004, 01:25 PM

That'd be nice... I am at a loss as to where I can mount fronts without them being too bulky or in the way. My doors will not take a large speaker, simply not deep enough. The T-4's are way too small for any decent mid output. They give a great front stage for high and tweets though.

The pics are up, please let me know if the page is working.
-Jerry

exalted512

04-30-2004, 01:33 PM

i got a "page cannot be found"
you can make your own cardomain site at www.sounddomain.com
it automatically makes your pictures smaller
just a thought
-Cody

LittleCar_w/12s

04-30-2004, 02:13 PM

I think that's the last straw... I am going to run DNS externally until I can buy a set of real IP addresses... for some reason the DNS doesn't route through my router properly, which means all kinds of headache.
All that's left now is to figure out why my IIS keeps ****ting itself.

Ok, I'll re-do the DNS and re-post in min or two :)
-jerry

LittleCar_w/12s

04-30-2004, 02:44 PM

Ok, my DNS changes are done, and IIS is still running (amazing), so try it now.
-Jerry

exalted512

04-30-2004, 04:15 PM

no go...
same thing
-Cody

AustinKP

04-30-2004, 06:30 PM

Jerry,
Try the program "GuildFTPd FTP Deamon" It gives you much more control over the permissions for each user, etc. You can also watch what they are doing on your ftp server and ban addresses, etc. It's a free download. Try download.com or sourceforge.net. If you can't find it, let me know, and i'll give you a login to my ftp server. Also, goto www.no-ip.com and set up a free account so you don't have to remember your IP address. They also have a free download of a small utility that automatically checks your machine's IP address and updates it at no-ip.com in case your IP is dynamic, i.e. Cable modem, DSL, etc.
Any questions, let me know.
-Austin

LittleCar_w/12s

04-30-2004, 09:08 PM

Oh well... I am having problems with this server... perhaps it's that I can't afford the virus software to run on a server to keep it from being eaten alive....

Well. I'll look into posting on cardomain... may be easier, unless.... I could post them to a new thread here!

-Jerry

geolemon

05-01-2004, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by LittleCar_w/12s
--- well.. I am looking into the pioneer that adjusts timing. That way the rear speakers are more effective.
Effective...
At what? ;)

--- Man, you just come to houston and help me fit something in that 4" space buried in my dash... or the limited floorspace that would simply eat any power i put through it.I'd completely abandon that location, short of entertaining it as another potential option for a tweeter location... which probably even still isn't a good one.
It's fundamentally not going to perform well - mostly it physically won't be able to produce bass - not due to the driver, as you could have a subwoofer installed there... but because there's nothing stopping both the front and rear sound waves from reaching the interior of the car... the half-shell of a dashboard effectively being "the baffle"... so how low can you go?
It's not good, very fundamentally simply not good. ;)

I'd explore other options...
Kickpanels are the default "ideal" idea that pop into mind, unless there are some physical or ergonomic reasons that prevent that.

Door builds would be another option with about as much fabrication as the kicks, if that were so.

Sure, most of us have it easier...
Don't be mad at us, be mad at the manufacturer's marketing department that designed your stereo, damn them for not having audiophiles - or at least acoustical engineers on that design project. :p

And consider this -
Even though most of us DO have it easier than it sounds like you do...
Most of the serious audiophiles still abandon their "better than what you have" stock locations in favor of custom fabricated locations, often kickpanels.
Just ponder that. Why? ;)

--- I am designing a enclosure and deck design geared to direct all the subs' sound energy into the cabin in a linear fashion. It will aslo fine-tune the direction of the rear speakers and include built in enclosures for them.Sub-bass is inherently omnidirectional.
Unless you are driving one whopping sized vehicle, one single wave can't even exist inside your interior at any given moment without compression.
In fact, this very phenomenon is known as "cabin gain", is inherently tied to these sub-bass frequencies, and is the very reason that big bass in a car is possible.
This phenomenon means that when the bass hits, essentially the entire cabin is pressurized uniformly.

What you really need to worry about are other issues...
Distortions, harmonics, things vibrating near this pressure source...
While the actual bass fundamental will essentially be omnidirectional and omnipresent (ie. you can't tell where it's coming from), these higher-frequency distortions and anomolies (keywords: higher-frequency) won't be, and your ears will be able to pick up the vibrations and distortions. ;)

Enclosures for the rear speakers would be a must-have, otherwise the subwoofer would be playing air-paddleball against them, which certainly doesn't compliment their sound quality, since the trunk is essentially it's own sealed-off airspace with the rear speakers plugging up those potentially convenient holes. :p

Well.. I hear what you're saying... just can't do that... I don't really have room in the front for all that speaker, considering I have a little car. I'm not sure what in-the-door speakers would sound like, but given that they would output perpendicular to the front stage at shin-level in my car...
Sound is really omnidirectional.
It's not a laser...

The speaker does move like a piston, and the momentum of the pushed air does lend to a bit of directionality, the speaker having a slightly different on-axis response compared to off-axis...
But speakers can be designed to yield smoother off-axis response than on-axis, for car audio purposes, for the very intention of putting them in doors, where they would be listened to at greater angles, off-axis. The Adire Koda set is one.

Perhaps someone on this forum can discuss the design, or post response plots showing various on-axis/off-axis measurements, for Polk's speakers? Likely, one set might be better designed for off-axis use than another.

what's the advantage over rear speakers??? Really, just about everything.
Sound quality.
Mostly imaging.

Go to a concert... get up nice and close to the stage, front and center.
Close your eyes.
Where's the sound coming from?
If you turned around, standing in place, with your back facing the stage... you'd feel a bit uncomfortable, wouldn't you? People giving you funny looks... and it would sound different too, wouldnt' it? Your ears are shaped to catch sound coming from in front of you... maybe more importantly, your subconscious is comfortable with, as it expects, sound coming from in front of you.
Sounds coming from behind you are psychologically disturbing... your instinct is to turn to face them. It's stressful, rather than relaxing, having sounds coming from behind you. Psychological.
Consider it audio Feng Shui if you like, from that respect. :D

Also, the sound is travelling further, reflecting off and being absorbed by different objects, surfaces, on it's way to your ears... which will not receive that rear sound the same as it would receive front sound, due again to the shape of your ears.
Delay, to align the rear waves with the front waves won't really get you too far, although you could minimize the "comb filtering" effects...
However, again, bear in mind this doesn't equalize the front sound with the rear sound... each will have it's own acoustical characteristics, and that will lead to poor combination.

Most importantly, if you had just rear speakers in your car, and you closed your eyes..
...it just wouldn't sound like you were "at the concert".
There would be no illusion of a sound stage, no imaging.
More of a "band in the back seat" sort of effect.

I'd take the door panels off, the kickpanels... a little exploration of your front area.
It doesn't need to take much work to fabricate some great locations, that will actually allow your speakers to work as intended. ;)

geolemon

05-01-2004, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by LittleCar_w/12s
Also, what would it sound like for passengers in the back seat if I had none? I addressed this in that article I posted earlier, in the "frequently asked questions" section. ;)

To rehash:

How often do you have rear seat passengers?

Would you compromise your front-seat sound quality - where you inherently always are - for the potential benefit of the rear passenger? ;)

Do your rear seat passengers demand high levels of sound? That would be rather big of the freeloaders, wouldn't it?
I've personally never had passengers in my car that demanded sound of any sort... most aren't audiophiles, and even the ones that were wouldn't know what to expect to begin with. ;)
I'm an audiophile, and when I ride in other people's cars, I have no expectations. Do you? ;)

So, back to that question...
"Would you compromise your front seat sound quality..."
Would you... for people that not only aren't there much, but don't have expectations - in fact respectfully don't have any right to (what - are they going to refuse the ride? :p ) - of audio in the car?

And with respect to all this...
What's preventing them from hearing your front speakers?
Their heads are just a couple feet - literally - behind yours.

Rear speakers can even be a detriment to your rear passengers...
If you are trying to have a conversation in the car, you may not realize that the speakers in the rear - which are inherently inches from their ears - are pretty loud, and you are not facing them... they may be in the back going "What? What? What?"

Not to mention, all the rules that apply, for why the rear speakers aren't good for you in the front seat, apply to the rear passengers as well. ;)

In fact - with your "only rear speakers" scenario...
Imagine what THAT would be like for the rear passengers. :D

Multi-speaker stereos in cars weren't designed by audiophiles.
Only recently, with relationships such as Chrysler partnering with DLC to develop custom equalization have acoustics really been considered seriously.
Even systems like the Mark Levinson Lexus systems are "lipstick on a pig"... Mark Levinson, eh? When did he start making small car audio speakers? Where's the "Mark Levinson" amp? etc.

Up until today, these speaker systems were designed by marketing departments, who use them to sell cars.
A "multi speaker" system looks more impressive on a window sticker to a layman.
The layman doesn't think to himself "....but music is only recorded in 2-channel stereo", or "what about the pathlength differences, and absolute arrival times, or already difficult interior acoustics?"
No, the Layman is impressed, and it pushes him one step closer to purchasing a car... the multi-speakers did their job, and they haven't even been powered up yet. ;)

Don't perpetuate acoustical mistakes implemented by the marketing department. :cool:

neomagus00

05-01-2004, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by geolemon
Sound is really omnidirectional.
It's not a laser...
well, at least for mids and subs; tweets are pretty directional

But speakers can be designed to yield smoother off-axis response than on-axis, for car audio purposes, for the very intention of putting them in doors, where they would be listened to at greater angles, off-axis. The Adire Koda set is one.
cdt's stuff has what they call 'contoured dispersion' too

exalted512

05-01-2004, 01:25 AM

Chris,
I tried posting a link to your article about caps, batts, and alts a while ago and it came up as file not found--also tried the link you posted with the same results...did you change your website up or???
-Cody

LittleCar_w/12s

05-01-2004, 11:36 AM

Ok here are the pics posted to my new page at sounddomain:
http://www.sounddomain.com/memberpage/592675

after thinking about it... rear speakers aren't really a priority for the driver, but will be for the rear passengers. I have decided that I am not going to put them in the rear deck. I am going to mull over ways to have a set facing the rear passengers from maybe the pillars for their imaging, as it really is noticeable from the rear of the car v.s thefront.
Should I have mids in the sides, then tweets and maybe highs in the pillars? I have no problem with fiberglass and plastic work.

As for the front, I am not sure what It would sound like to have speakers from the kicks or doors in this car, so I may rig a cheap speaker up to the h/u and tape it in place (with an enclosure of course) I have some cheap radioshack 4x6's that'll do the trick.

Still looking for anyone who has pics of a small leg-room car that has doors or kicks installed. I haven't had much exp with smaller cars that didn't have factory locations.

My logic behind the rears at midpoint in the car is that I can fade them to 0 and then up them for passengers if they want. I guess this would be like a miniature of what one does in an SUV.

-Jerry

exalted512

05-01-2004, 10:24 PM

after looking at your car heres what id do
tweeters in the panel that runs up your windshield
only problem is try to get it as straight up and down as possible so your soundstage isnt at your waist
or you could try to use your stock speaker location and try to make it work to where the tweeter is straight up and down
i cant find anyone who makes kick panels for a lemans
so im guessing youll have to make em yourself
id take the kick panels off, look at what you have behind it...mine have a hole in the metal already...id put them as close as factory as possible b/c you have a small car...slightly angled toward the seats
made it out of MDF and cover it with the same color carpet as the floor
-Cody

LittleCar_w/12s

05-03-2004, 08:52 PM

Ok guys here's the update:
I snipped the leads to the rear location off the decks' pigtail, then connected about 6ft of lead to them. I have a set of radioshack 8ohm 4x10's that I had literally turned the box inside out and made an enclosure for back when I had a townhouse and used them for side speakers. I connected those to the leads and had some fun moving them around the car.

Test 1: Kickpanel and door facing towards console:
Absolutely unacceptable. Like I had guessed, it ate every bit of power I put to them and little output to the cabin.

Test 2: Placed on the kickpanel area, but facing straight back to the driver's seat:
Very nice output, clear and crisp. The location does require that I have something up top to bring the stage up (I was able to test this cause I could fade to just them on the rear channel.)

Test 3: Same location, facing slightly up:
Not much improvement over 2, but was a more efficient location for higher mids.

Cons: since the door would be an impossible place to mount a pod, I will be making f/glas ones for the kicks. The drawback is that I am limited by width because they need to face back. MAYBE 6", but that would push it. The 4x10" is wide enough, however, I can work slightly larger on the driver's side, ad I can push the 2" thick harnes to the rear of the speaker. The computer happens to be mounted right where this location is on the passenger side. I may try to move it, but that harness is f*ing HUGE.

As for the rears:
Test 3: rear stage mounted rearfacing on the window pillars(behind driver's door)
All I can say, is that the timing is absolutely awesome. With just the front speakers in the floor and the T-4's, the rear passenger imaging/stage is lacking, so I tried this spot. While I realize that I will not be able to mount 4x10"s there, I will at least place some highs and tweets here (the mids are sufficient from the front.)
The best part, though, is that:
when the rear-facing rears are in, it doesn't overpower the front stage, and the timing makes it sound like the front stage is going past you then reflecting, then returning to you. This is good, since in my car, the front stage STOPS at the driver's seat... NO sound gets to the back and returns. This really sound's like surround sound, not rear fill. I turned it up and was like "Holy crap!" :eek:

Well, I am pleased that I found a set of locations to work well, now I just need component rec's for the front:
up to 6": for floor, I think I will want a 3-way set down there, as the mid can shoot back, then Ill put the high then tweet on the curve that comes down from the dash to the floor to improve imaging. Amazingly enough, the little T-4's sound great with that little help from the floor, so I will only need high (maybe) and tweets at the top.
For the rear: I will need at most a 3" high and tweet set. Currently I am going to temp. mount the high/tweet components that I have salvaged from my sony 6x9" 's pole piece here for directional testing. They're free, and the 2.5" high is a sealed design so I will not need an enclosure until I get a better set.

If you have any suggestions, keep posting, I am listening :)
(Yall got me to abandon the rear locations.. what'll be next?)

-Jerry

LittleCar_w/12s

05-03-2004, 09:01 PM

Oh I forgot to mention I will be powering this location with a kenwood 50x4 amp that has adjustable xovers for either high or low (how convenient?) All I have to do is replace it first so I can pull it off the subs :confused:

Do you think it would be ok to mount the amp in the rear, say between the rear seat and the front (relative to car) of the sub-enclosure? I realize that thiis is a lot of wire, but I don't really want it under the driver's seat. I have air ducting there in the floor for rear-passenger heat, ant that makes it a bi@tch to mount there. While I could make a platform mounted to the seat rails for this.. at that point I could have run 6 sets of wire to the back and have it nicely and more accessibly mounted.

Opinions?

-Jerry

exalted512

05-03-2004, 11:39 PM

as long as nothing is going to rip the wires out and it has space to cool, i see no problem
everything sounds good--glad to hear its coming together for you
-Cody

geolemon

05-05-2004, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by exalted512
Chris,
I tried posting a link to your article about caps, batts, and alts a while ago and it came up as file not found--also tried the link you posted with the same results...did you change your website up or???
-Cody

Batteries, capacitors, alternators:
http://www.betteraudio.com/geolemon/newmain/battcapalt/

Absolute phasing, pathlength and arrival time differences and their effects:
http://www.betteraudio.com/geolemon/phasing/phasing.htm

Our server was down a couple times last month, for about a day each time - once because of a DC-area DSL failure, once because of a hardware failure on our part. ;)

exalted512

05-05-2004, 10:34 AM

yeah i got back on the next day
-Cody

LittleCar_w/12s

05-05-2004, 03:38 PM

Hehe... If i could keep my IIs from crashing on my server...

Anyway... here is a ? I posted in the home audio section about the tweeters for the rear, if you have any ideas let me know:
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18625

And I have good and bad news...
Good news is both of the guys took 4years in prison for the multiple car burglaries
Bad news is: the $1400 the guys did may not show up... but I can still take em to court :D

-Jerry

neomagus00

05-06-2004, 07:46 PM

wow... at least they got some of what they deserved... bummer that you may not, however... :(

geolemon

05-07-2004, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by LittleCar_w/12s
Anyway... here is a ? I posted in the home audio section about the tweeters for the rear, if you have any ideas let me know:
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18625 Home audio is a whole different world.. but most of the same acoustical rules apply.

Bear in mind, when you are talking about home audio, you are talking about two completely distinct groups of people, whose worlds don't align:
Guys who listen to music - ie. home stereo
Guys who watch movies - ie. home theater

Remember, music is recorded in stereo... all the high-end home audio guys who build systems for listening to music build simple, 2-cabinet systems.
You wouldn't find a home audiophile entertaining the notion of adding rear speakers for his stereo system.

For home theater on the other hand, you are building a system that's going to reproduce the sound that's recorded on a movie...
With DVD's, you are talking about 5.1 recordings rather than stereo.
That's 5 separate full-range channels of sound, and the recording process itself is responsible for controlling what sound comes from what speakers... and the majority of the time, the recording is engineered so no sound comes from the rear. ;)

So, your decision to run rear speakers in the home, IMO really boils down to a very very simple, very high-level question:
What are you building this stereo for? ;)

LittleCar_w/12s

05-07-2004, 10:31 AM

GeoLemon,
You misunderstood I think. I was asking the home audio guys if there was a small version of the film dipole tweeter that I run at home that would work in the car, or any better dome-tweeters they know of.
Also, I am making an enitrely separate rear stage in my car... It will be rear-facing, for the rear passengers... and only will consist of highs and tweets. The mid will come from the front pods I will build, which permeates to the rear ok.. but the highs and up NEED to be restaged for the back as well. This is simple enough, and I've already tested it for compatibility with the front stage. (the timing makes it at most sound like you are in a room instead of a car, and is actually pretty clean.)

So to rephrase the question:
I tested a two-way pole piece from my dead 3way 6x9's (one stiff-cone high, one metal-dome tweeter) and compared it to my in-home dipole FILM tweeter. The dipole had great superclean response. The stiff-cone mid has OK response, but is a little hollow sounding. the AL-Dome peizo tweeter seems to only put out the smallest of the highest freq at MAX power from my home amp. Meanwhile the dipole is very loud at this point (actually hurts!)
So:............................................... .................
IS there a better type of dome tweeter that has REAL output?? or should I try to find a nice film-tweeter in a small size? I will still have a small high driver, (not this piece of crap I am testing with salvaged from the sonys). What is Silk-dome tweeter.. etc?

geolemon

05-12-2004, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by LittleCar_w/12s
I was asking the home audio guys if there was a small version of the film dipole tweeter that I run at home that would work in the car, or any better dome-tweeters they know of.The challenge with running a dipole tweeter in a car, is how to mount it.
In a home, it mounts on a small baffle (if it's tweeter-only, a very small baffle ;))... both the front and rear of the baffle open to the listening space, and very important, the baffle face is perpendicular to your listening pathlength.
In a car... dipole?
Interesting, something that I've even pondered... but haven't really thought of a good way of implementing, as the baffle would need to be attached to something - and unfortunately, likely the side of the baffle.

So to rephrase the question:
I tested a two-way pole piece from my dead 3way 6x9's (one stiff-cone high, one metal-dome tweeter) and compared it to my in-home dipole FILM tweeter. The dipole had great superclean response. The stiff-cone mid has OK response, but is a little hollow sounding. the AL-Dome peizo tweeter seems to only put out the smallest of the highest freq at MAX power from my home amp. Meanwhile the dipole is very loud at this point (actually hurts!)
So:............................................... .................
IS there a better type of dome tweeter that has REAL output?? or should I try to find a nice film-tweeter in a small size? I will still have a small high driver, (not this piece of crap I am testing with salvaged from the sonys). What is Silk-dome tweeter.. etc? Lots and lots and lots of dome tweeters have tremendous output.
Cadence makes a component set - the Neo - I swear it could cause earbleeds from it's output level. It sounds good as well.

Possibly fundamentally at issue here, are the types of tweeters you are considering.
Soft dome tweeters typically are laid-back, even less efficient.
Hard dome tweeters typically are very efficient, some even say aggressive, bright.

The pole piece in a 6x9... face it, 6x9's aren't marketed to audiophiles. They are marketed to people that don't realize you shouldn't have two discreet types of tweeters operating together (playing the same frequencies). The components in a 6x9 are not likely to be high-fi quality.

Piezos aren't usually high-fi stuff either, but you can find some odd exceptions. I've got some decent sounding horn compression drivers made by CTS here - they actually use Piezo elements - I purchased them intentionally because they were less efficient than their traditional compression driver counterparts.

You might search places like:
www.madisound.com
www.zalytron.com
www.partsexpress.com
These places sell raw drivers. You might be surprised how inexpensive raw drivers can be.

Of course, you can't expect to just buy something and have it match... first priority is locating a 4 ohm tweeter.
Second priority is discovering how overefficient/underefficient it is - and building a proper L-pad for either it or the mid, to bring the efficiency back to where they blend with each other properly.

Also, I am making an enitrely separate rear stage in my car... It will be rear-facing, for the rear passengers... and only will consist of highs and tweets.
The problem with this strategy is:
How will you prevent the sound coming from these rear speakers from interfering with your front speakers?
Same issues as stated in that phasing article. ;)

Also note (also in that article) that the higher the frequency, the greater the number of issues... the "comb filter" effect yields more and more cancellations and interference nodes as the frequencies increase.

I mention this, because you state you plan on running only tweeters in the rear. You might want to rethink this... or end up simply compromising the sound quality at every listening position in the car.

My admittedly personal opinion is... if you aren't looking to accomplish anything better than "sounds OK"... why spend money at all? Add a small sub to a stock system, and you have "sounds OK". ;)

As mentioned earlier... passengers don't have any expectations of sound quality - none at all (do you, when riding in other's cars?).
Further, they aren't giving you any money to cater to them.
Optimize your SQ for your seating position.
Anything else that you build in will simply be compromising that sound quality... and won't even yield superior results for them either.
I'd skip it. Focus on yourself. :cool:

If you feel like later experimenting, and seeing if you can add these speakers...
...then make it a project, later. It's truly only at that point where you can set up that experiment, and witness what degradation that causes to your sound quality and imaging.
Right now (pre-install), you don't have a baseline.

Like any experiment, you can only manipulate one variable at a time, or unavoidably lose the ability to answer which variable caused which effect. :(