Treo Engineering Subwoofers

[geralopez]

Have somebody experience with Treo Engineering Subwoofers?
Here is the link for details:

http://www.treoonline.com/index.html

-GLopez

[exalted512]

insanely loud SPL woofers
-Cody

[Steve@3dai]

But do they sound good?

[exalted512]

i doubt theyre sq speakers at all
i think they hold the world record at like 177db's
-Cody

[neomagus00]

treo's balance seems to shift from sq to spl as they go up their lines. their top-end is rec'd for competition only, while the bottom is slated for daily driving and good sq.

[sntnsupermen131]

yeah, i dont know too much about their products, just know theyre capable of slamming:D
-Cody

[Jstas]

This isn't going to turn into another ED thing, is it?

I can't recall ever hearing of Treo. Looking over teh website though, the TSX series reminds me alot of the old dB series subs. They even have similar specs but it seems the old dB series was a bit more efficient. Anyway, they look snazzy, what is your interest in them?

[neomagus00]

Originally posted by Jstas
This isn't going to turn into another ED thing, is it?
i don't have my fire-retardant racing suit (with associated F1 rig) handy, so i cant handle another dilemma.

[geralopez]

Well, my interest is to substitute my 3 blown MM2104. As you can find in other thread I explained how I blow my sub's, now I take the decision (and the money) to buy a new stuff. I was thinking in change to Autotek Mean Machine Subs to match my amps, but I found with same dealer of Autotek, these interesting subs, they are more expensive than Polk's as well as Autotek subs.

Is it a smart idea to change to some of these subs?

If you can read a little Spanish look at the prices this dealer have in these subs (divide by 11.5 to convert to USD +15% local tax):

The Right Connections de Mexico (TRCM) (http://www.trcm.com.mx/index.php?cPath=46_79)

I appreciate your opinion and help...

-GLopez

[geolemon]

These things are purpose built SPL subs.

What that means is this:
Extra high motor strength.
Relatively high Fs.

These two items alone will relegate these subs to ported-enclosure-only suitability.
And even at that - SQ wasn't a design factor. I'd expect these to be closer to "equihung" than overhung, meaning it'll have a high but peaky BL curve. Stroking high excursion levels over that peaky BL curve is likely to result in high levels of intermodulation distortion.
The suspension is also probably not likely to be very linear in behavior... although it might have one heck of an Xmech limit even still.

The durability built into the subwoofer also will drive efficiency downward, actually requiring more power than your Polk's to reach high output levels.
Even though they are purpose built SPL subs, you might find that your output levels with these subs might even be lower than what you had with your Polk subs, given the same power levels.

And you'd be trading off some SQ in the process.

As replacements for your subs - I wouldn't suggest it. ;)

[geralopez]

That's a good point, I'm looking for SQ in my setup (http://www.sounddomain.com/id/glopez) .
I will look for other subs.

:confused: Where I can find the best price for (3) MM104 through an internet authorized dealer?
You most know more than me where to find it, last time I bought my subs with a no authorizided dealer and I lost my money.
I saw in sounddomain.com at $186.95 free shipping.
(that price is after a temporary 15% discount, normal price is $219.95)

-GLopez

[exalted512]

sounddomain is probably your best bet
im not sure if acaraudio.com sells them or not, but theyre not authorized dealers
but swerve told me the other day sounddomain honored a price from them and made the price lower for him
so you might want to check that out
can you buy the ones for $180 in the box and take them out of the box without voiding the warranty?
-Cody

[geralopez]

I was reading some posts about Adire Audio Brahma Subs.
Are they a better option than Polk's, Autotek's or Treo's subs?

If I get two Brahma 10 MKII, Will be enough power 1600W RMS @ 1 ohm (coming form my Autotek amp)?

-GLopez

[AustinKP]

Depending on the size of your box, that ought to be plenty. Click Here (http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/brahma_power_handling.htm) for power req's depending on box size for the Brahma 10.

[exalted512]

comparing a polk sub to a brahma is unfair
theyre in two totally different price ranges
but yeah, depending on the size of the box
actually, id get a single 15" brahma and throw 1600 watts at it
thats all the bass you could EVER need
www.sound-founations.us sells em, but i dont think they ship to mexico:(
but its a good place to look for specs/prices
you might want to shoot them an email and see if you can get something worked out...like if you pay a little extra for shipping...its a relatively small website, but truthfully, odds arent in your favor
i dont think you can get 2 brahmas and run them both at 1 ohm
i THINK they are DVC and each VC is 2ohms
so 1 sub at 1 ohm
or 1 sub at 4 ohms
2 subs at 2 ohms
-Cody

[neomagus00]

yeah, they're 2-ohm dvc. and if you need 2 brahmas, you're insane. and i mean actually, clinically, insane. if you get just one you can throw all 1600 at it - up to excursion limit, that is - with that amp, and you will be quite happy.

and if you can fit a 12, do that instead of a 10. the 12'll be louder and will reach deeper. i'm still wary of 15's, they just sound sloppier to me.

[exalted512]

you really need to find some with a 15" brahma...youll be really amazed
and i guess im clinically insane because im getting 2 brahmas for my truck to replace the mm124s and run them off my RF amps
then when i get enough money, and get all my other modifications that i want to get done to my new truck, then im getting a USA-3000
3000WRMSx1@2ohms
oo yeah...
-Cody

[geralopez]

In this case, it is not a comparison, it is a stuff selection. I didn't know nothing about Brahma before, after reading some posts in this forum I turned my decision about what brand to buy.
I have to spend in my account $700 bucks. I can buy two of these beast to perform a better SQ in my set up. I'm just need some help to define (and also be sure) where to buy it.
The idea is to buy it and ship to some address close to the border (McAllen, TX.), I have some relatives there and they can receive it.

Thanks for your help guys!!

-GLopez

[exalted512]

well like i said before, youre not going to be able to hook 2 of them up to 1 ohm
i promise you, 1600 watts on a 15 will be CRAZY loud and have TONS of SQ
it WILL have better SQ than the momo's
www.sound-foundations.us is probably the cheapest youll be able to find them
$330 for a ten
and they have free shipping as well
if i had the room id go with a single 15" instead of 2 10s, but its going to be under the backseat so thats why im going with 10s
id highly recommend the 15 though
i have no doubts youll be VERY HAPPY
-Cody

[neomagus00]

hey glopez, i just looked at your sounddomain page, and damn! that trunk looks evil! very sweet install...

[geralopez]

Thank you, It is my first serious install. At this time I have been testing all the system and the sound is really crystal clear with the MM6. "0" Zero noise.
I re-installed my old (2) 10" EX-II subs while I find the replacement of my blown MM2104. The EX-II sound great too buy I can not go so loud cause I can blow it.
There are some pending things to finish the whole car sound project for my 300M, but they are just aesthetic. I hope to finish soon.
Here is a link where I have the pic's with better quality.

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15983
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=170746#post170746

Now I'm in a big doubt, maybe you can help me to decide betwen these two options:

A) (3) 12" MM12 (1500W @ 1.3 ohms) and few modification in my actual setup
or
B) (1) 15" BRAHMA MKII (1600W at 1 ohms) and a complete remodeling of my sub enclosure.

I'm just can add: I'm looking for the best SQ. You tell me what to do.

Thanks again

-GLopez

[exalted512]

a single 15" brahma WILL have less distortion at any level of power or excursion
well...i dont have the papers to prove it, but im willing to stake my truck and everything in it that im right
and my guess is it will probably be louder as well
it will be a lot of modification, but itll free up trunk space...
-Cody

[neomagus00]

while the brahma may be loud as hell, the 3 12's just look cool. if that's the primary factor, i vote the 12's. otherwise, i vote 2 smaller brahmas. i just get a bad feeling when people start talking 15's and sq in the same sentence.

[geolemon]

Read up on XBL^2 technology, there's a whitepaper on it on Adire's website.

By virtue of XBL^2, the BL (motor strength) is absolutely flat (constant) across a huge excursion range... 27.5mm in the case of the Brahma. Most other subwoofers - really ALL subwoofers not using XBL^2 have a parabolic BL curve shape - that is, BL is highest near the "at rest" position, and rolls off at some parabolic rate as the sub moves away from that "at rest" position in operation.
With the sub stroking across that excursion range, and the BL level changing as the cone strokes that excursion range, intermodulation distortion results - and that's the largest and most perceivable type of audible distortion inherent in most subwoofers. XBL^2 virtually eliminates IMD caused by BL curves.

In addition, XBL^2 woofers have lower inductance than most - and actually, lower inductance than really all subs having comparable excursion limits - and since inductance is a resistance of a subwoofer to change direction quickly (since it's the resistance of the rate of change of current flow), distortion caused by inductance is also inherently minimized.
And of course, the linear excursion capabilities are truly superior... higher even than the W7, with the exception of the 13" version, that has a slight advantage.

Chances are, a Brahma 15" has better sound quality than most 10" subs that you've heard.
People actualy are surprised when they hear one for the first time, because it is devoid of so many of the distortions that we've become accustomed to. Some people think it doesn't "sound" as loud, because it's not as chaotic as most subs, right up to the limits of the sub, it stays clean.
Is that a bad thing? :D

[neomagus00]

nope, that's not bad...

i did read the whitepaper. you got it close enough to make the argument valid - the bl curve of a brahma is more like a normal curve with the peak pushed down somewhat... like a rounded capital M. other than that, i agree completely... BUT... won't a 12 with XBL^2 sound even better than a 15 with XBL^2?

yeah, the xmax is just ridiculous... cool, but crazy... i wonder how much these things would be if they were sold retail? i.e. would they be about a w7's price?

[exalted512]

15" brahma retails for $440 i think
-Cody

[neomagus00]

yeah, but isn't that factory-direct?

[geolemon]

Originally posted by neomagus00
nope, that's not bad...

i did read the whitepaper. you got it close enough to make the argument valid - the bl curve of a brahma is more like a normal curve with the peak pushed down somewhat... like a rounded capital M. other than that, i agree completely... It's essentially flat... the small deviations are simply due to the balancing act itself, of what an appropriate coil length is, given the asymmetrical gap-space-gap of XBL^2...
The shorter you make the coil, the more of an "M" shape you get.
The longer you make the coil, the more parabolic you make the resulting BL curve.
The Brahma has a good balance of these two elements, the BL deviations are miniscule enough to essentially call "flat", particularly since Xmag is defined as the point where BL has fallen to 71% of it's "at rest" position (indicated by the red dotted line on the BL plots)... these deviations aren't anywhere near that point. ;)



BUT... won't a 12 with XBL^2 sound even better than a 15 with XBL^2?
There are too many other factors that go into "what makes a driver sound good?" to even comment on that one. ;)
Depends on your sound/enclosure goals.
In terms of driver design, primarily it depends on how well matched the motor is, to a given size ("mass" would be more appropriate) cone, and even that must still be with respect to suspension stiffness (Kms)... again with respect to the intended use of the driver. ;)


yeah, the xmax is just ridiculous... cool, but crazy... i wonder how much these things would be if they were sold retail? i.e. would they be about a w7's price? Adire only sells direct, and direct to a relatively small number of dealers that they have.
They do that because they don't build these things in nearly the volumes that JL does.. or any of the big names for that matter.

But the "big names" sell through traditional distribution channels...
They sell to distributors (profiting), who in turn sell to stores (profiting), who in turn sell to customers (profiting).
By selling direct, Adire sells to customers (profiting).
Or, they sell to dealers for a lower price (profiting) who sell to customers (profiting).

Either way you look at it, they've removed 1-2 layers of people who have their hands in the cash drawer.
I personally fully support that business model, even though it certainly does put a whole lot more oweness on the customers to educate themselves on their needs, and how to identify products that cater to those needs...

...but my experiences with traditional shops largely have left me thinking that customers will more often be misled going the "traditional shop" route at any rate...
By virtue, unfortunately, of the very profit chain and commissioned nature of the sales chain itself. :(

So in the end, I really don't see a big disadvantage to the customer, buying from a direct-sale company... but I do see potentially big savings to the customer, so that's good, I think, on the value-scale. :cool:

[neomagus00]

Originally posted by geolemon
It's essentially flat... the small deviations are simply due to the balancing act itself, of what an appropriate coil length is, given the asymmetrical gap-space-gap of XBL^2...
The shorter you make the coil, the more of an "M" shape you get.
The longer you make the coil, the more parabolic you make the resulting BL curve.
The Brahma has a good balance of these two elements, the BL deviations are miniscule enough to essentially call "flat", particularly since Xmag is defined as the point where BL has fallen to 71% of it's "at rest" position (indicated by the red dotted line on the BL plots)... these deviations aren't anywhere near that point. ;)[/b]
yep... :)


There are too many other factors that go into "what makes a driver sound good?" to even comment on that one. ;)
Depends on your sound/enclosure goals.
In terms of driver design, primarily it depends on how well matched the motor is, to a given size ("mass" would be more appropriate) cone, and even that must still be with respect to suspension stiffness (Kms)... again with respect to the intended use of the driver. ;)
yes... i was intending to compare the two drivers assuming all else was equal - that is, the same qts of the box/driver system (say 0.707), and the two physical subs, including their differences in motor size, cone mass and suspension stiffness. perhaps to quantify it, would total distortion be less on a 12 than a 15 with this all included?


Either way you look at it, they've removed 1-2 layers of people who have their hands in the cash drawer.
I personally fully support that business model, even though it certainly does put a whole lot more oweness on the customers to educate themselves on their needs, and how to identify products that cater to those needs...

i completely concur - i simply wondered how the price of a w7 would compare to a brahma if both were factory direct.

[geolemon]

Originally posted by neomagus00
yes... i was intending to compare the two drivers assuming all else was equal - that is, the same qts of the box/driver system (say 0.707), and the two physical subs, including their differences in motor size, cone mass and suspension stiffness. perhaps to quantify it, would total distortion be less on a 12 than a 15 with this all included?
Perhaps more important, would be considering that the distortion on a Brahma is ludicrously low, compared to virtually all other subs out there.
In fact, the Brahma's distortion is so low (and it's inductance is low enough to allow you to actually try this out in reality), that you could use it as a midbass, or even a midrange driver to some degree, with good clarity.

Bear in mind, the lower you go on the frequency scale, the less sensitive the human ear is to distortion. In the midrange, the human ear can detect fractions of a percentage of distortion. In the subwoofer range, most people can't even perceive distortion until it reaches levels nearing 10%! :eek:

Many subwoofers do inherently have distortion nearing that level... heck, I can think of many subs that I can perceive distortion with, in certain installs.

The Brahma's distortion is so low, that if the 15" version actually did have some degree "more distortion" than the 12" version - would it really be relevant? ;)


i completely concur - i simply wondered how the price of a w7 would compare to a brahma if both were factory direct. I expect that the W7 would still be more expensive... even given the higher manufacturing quantity of the W7 compared to the Brahma.
Why?
The W7 uses a tremendous amount of expensive custom parts. Literally everything on the subwoofer... from motor, to cone assembly, to spider, surround, frame, speaker terminals... you name it.
You'd probably cut the MSRP of the W7 down by 30%-50% by selling direct.
The Brahma on the other hand uses mostly standard, off the shelf parts. Really, all off the shelf parts, save for a machined groove in the pole piece, and a grooved top plate. And a cost savings on a shorter voice coil. ;)

And if you equalized them in terms of manufacturing quantity, then the Brahma would have a huge pricing advantage.

[neomagus00]

Originally posted by geolemon
The Brahma's distortion is so low, that if the 15" version actually did have some degree "more distortion" than the 12" version - would it really be relevant? ;)
well, no, when you put it that way... :D


The W7 uses a tremendous amount of expensive custom parts. Literally everything on the subwoofer... from motor, to cone assembly, to spider, surround, frame, speaker terminals... you name it.
You'd probably cut the MSRP of the W7 down by 30%-50% by selling direct.
The Brahma on the other hand uses mostly standard, off the shelf parts. Really, all off the shelf parts, save for a machined groove in the pole piece, and a grooved top plate. And a cost savings on a shorter voice coil. ;)
why is it that the brahma uses OTS parts, while the w7 is totally custom? when i think of OTS, my perception of quality goes down (think stock vs. custom in cars)... does this apply here?

[AustinKP]

Originally posted by neomagus00
why is it that the brahma uses OTS parts, while the w7 is totally custom? when i think of OTS, my perception of quality goes down (think stock vs. custom in cars)... does this apply here? I wondered the same thing. However, anyone you ask can vouch for the superior quality of the Brahma. My question is, if Brahma uses off-the-shelf parts, why is it so much better than the competition? What sets them apart from other companies using the same parts?

[geolemon]

Well, by off the shelf parts, I mean standard, mass produced parts.
They don't have a performance disadvantage, they are just mass produced, giving them a per-unit-cost advantage.

Take the basket, for example...
The W7 uses a custom basket. It's deep as the grand canyon. It's quite a piece. But to tool up to build a custom basket, you are talking about around $10,000 in machining and mold-making costs alone - per basket size - before you've even spent a penny on actually pouring and buying the actual cast basket units.
Not to mention, JL has spent a fortune on patents for various parts - including the basket, I believe.

But for what performance advantage? (that's the question ;) )

Xmax on the Brahma 12 (28mm) is nearly the same as the W7 12 (29mm).

The basket that is used for the Brahma allows for excursions up to about 34mm, and that exceeds it's 28mm Xmax by quite a bit.

Yes, the W7 has an even deeper basket... but you are also trading off mounting depth in the process. One of those "What do you mean by performance?" things. You gain in Xsus - but only well outside the driver's operational linear range.
Also, you are trading off a heck of a lot of mounting depth (and money, let's not forget money! :D ) for it.

The suspension, likewise. The W7 has one of the most wonderful suspensions I've ever seen. However, it doesn't offer a big performance advantage, because you won't see any additional excursion until you are well outside the driver's operational linear range.
The suspension on the Brahma is fairly standard.. but well engineered at the same time. The spider was custom designed (that's not very expensive to do), and yields a flat Kms curve across it's linear range. Half roll surround is appropriate for it's range of travel... cone is rigid enough, has the proper mass...
If you compare the Brahma to the W7 inside their linear range, you might even determine the Brahma's suspension curves are better at any rate. ;)

It just comes down to... if you have standard parts available that offer you all the performance that you are looking for, to reach your design goals, why would you spend tens of thousands of dollars tooling up to make your own [unproven] parts? ;)

[geolemon]

Originally posted by AustinKP
My question is, if Brahma uses off-the-shelf parts, why is it so much better than the competition? It's a matter of proper selection of parts.
In the case of the Brahma, these parts were chosen, because in combination, they allowed the designers to reach their design goals.

The cone/former had the proper stiffness and moving mass, allowing for high-excursion low-distortion performance, and the Fs that was targeted.
The suspension componentry yields a flat Kms curve across the whole linear range of motion, and the spider was also designed to provide the desired amount of stiffness to satisfy the Fs that was desired, and the target small-enclosure size desired.
The basket dimensions allow for the desired excursion and spider dimensions.

But those things are effects, not causes... ;)
There's a major reason why it is better:

What sets them apart from other companies using the same parts?
XBL^2. It is very very different from traditional motor architectures... and yet such a small difference, at the same time. ;)
XBL^2 is what allows a short (29mm) voice coil to reach 28mm of excursion linearly - meaning the BL is flat within that range.

The greatest source of distortion is intermodulation distortion...
This is inherent in most loudspeakers, as most loudspeakers have parabolic-shaped BL curves. That is, motor strength is highest in the "at rest" (cone centered) position, and as the cone travels away from that at rest position, motor strength gradually falls off. As you observe the cone in motion, as it moves in and out, it's motor strength is changing... increasing every time it approaches the center of it's motion, and decreasing as it moves away. This imparts a distortion on the waveform.
The Brahma, by virtue of it's XBL^2 motor, doesn't suffer from this... it's a dual-gap technology, so that as the voice coil moves, the coil count in the magnetic field stays much more constant than with a traditional, single-gap subwoofer.

XBL^2 is nice because of it's simplicity...
At the risk of oversimplifying all the details of coordinating the length of the voice coil to the dual-gap geometry... essentially, it's a matter of taking a thick top plate, and cutting a groove around the inside of it. That's the additional "custom" expense per woofer. :cool:

Look at JBL's GTi...
The DDD technology is wonderful also.
But, it also requires a massive amount of fabrication... custom basket, magnets, coils, former... everything. It's got as many custom parts as the W7, and I'd bet assembly is more expensive.
And what did they really end up with at the end of the day?
XBL^2.
DDD is also a dual-gap technology, just implemented a bit differently... and a lot more expensively. ;)

So...
...if you want the performance of a Brahma - but you want the bigger price tag and all the custom parts to go along with it... you have that option. The JBL GTi. :D
(but the Brahma still outperforms it, also ;) )

[neomagus00]

okay, that makes sense - same or better performance, cheaper parts. good :p.

to summarize:
-w7's customization only takes effect outside linear operation of the driver, and is thus essentially worthless in this context
-yay for XBL^2

okay, it's settled... as soon as i can afford it, there's gonna be a brahma 10 (or 12 if i can find a way to fit it!) in my trunk :D

[geolemon]

Well, the W7 is a fantastic design.
It's got a bottomless suspension.
It's just that it's linear excursion is a mere 1mm more than the Brahma. ;)

And if that mm is important to you, you could also consider Resonant Engineering's XXX model - which still has the same ~34mm physical excursion limit (of the basket), but has a linear performance right out to 32mm, which beats the JL's linear excursion by several mm... thanks to a larger XBL^2 motor. ;)

I've always thought it would be fun to put an XXX motor on a W7 chassis... but I passed up my opportunity to purchase a blown 13W7. :(

Of course, Adire does special-order the expensive Parthenon... a massive XBL^2 neodymium-ring motor, which has a linear excursion of over 4.5" - one way.
That's over 114mm of linear excursion. Over 9" of peak-to-peak cone travel.
They build it to demonstrate that XBL^2 is scalable - and interestingly enough - nearly infinately. :eek: Traditional motor architecture is not scalable that way... the W7 really pushes the boundaries for single-gap.
And yes, it's very expensive if you want one. They tool them in onesies and twosies as ordered, after a personal consulting and parts selection session. :cool:

[neomagus00]

how expensive is very? :D

[geolemon]

I believe the Parthenon starts around $4,000, less if you have an Adire connection.. but still very pricey. ;)

[neomagus00]

somehow i don't think "very pricey" quite covers that!

what's a neodymium(sp) ring motor? neod and motor parts i get, what's the 'ring' bit?

[likeIcare]

Originally posted by Jstas
This isn't going to turn into another ED thing, is it?

for your sake, no

[AustinKP]

Uh, where did that come from? Before you reply to a question concerning the future posts, try reading the rest of the 30 posts that follow...

[exalted512]

Originally posted by AustinKP
Uh, where did that come from? Before you reply to a question concerning the future posts, try reading the rest of the 30 posts that follow...
dont sweat it, its probably some rejects from CAF trying to start **** again...maybe if we ignore them they will go away
-Cody

[geolemon]

Hey now...
I'm a reject from CAF. :p

[exalted512]

lol...not you...theres a few CAF members that are very helpful, then theres some others that are total dicks and the complete lack of moderators is the main reason i keep my posts on there to a minimum
-Cody

[geolemon]

A ring magnet just is a round neodymium magnet with a hole in the center... a ring shape.

The Parthenon was so named because of it's unique pillared construction, with a neodymium ring magnet at the top of each pillar.

I've got some pictures of the working Parthenon unit that Adire brought to CES, I visited their booth a couple times during the week:
CarAudioForum CES gallery for geolemon (http://www.caraudioforum.com/gallery/categories.php?cat_id=6)

Parthenon pics start at CES00037.jpg and go to CES00043.jpg.
In the one pic, I pushed the cone out quite far with my fingers, to show how the Arachnid spider/tinsel unit works.

It's a unique thing... replaces the spider completely with that copper spring unit, the copper springs also acting as the voice coil tinsel leads.
No more tinsel lead slap, and no more spider-limited Xsus. :cool:

[neomagus00]

freaky-looking thing, very strange... cool, but strange