Suggestions

[unrealii]

I have a set of db3000 tweeters and crossovers. I really enjoy the sound of these, but now I need to find a 6.5" mid range speaker to complete this system. Anyone have any suggestions. Would I be better off selling these tweeters on ebay and buying a brand new db or momo 6.5" component system?

[mbdyer12]

Thats what I would do personally. I have a set of the db6500's and I love them very much...but there's always an alternative so I'll let someone else chime in now...

[exalted512]

id call polk up and see if theyll sell you just the drivers for the db comps
but it might be REALLY expensive though
they wanted a 100 bucks from me for one momo tweeter...thats BS
-Cody

[neomagus00]

or it might not, with the new lines coming out

[unrealii]

Thanks for the replies. I did infact call up polk and they do not have any left. I am searching ebay because I know they come up here and there. I was wondering, is it worth the effort for these "old" db speakers. How do the newer db's / momo's compare to them?

[exalted512]

the newer DB speakers do not compare with the old ones, the old ones are much better...i think they are comparable with the momos, a slight bit more accurate but a much smaller power handling
-Cody

[Jstas]

The old Db's are probably the BEST automotive speaker Polk Audio ever produced.

[AustinKP]

You like them better than the current Momo MM6's or the MM465's?

[unrealii]

In terms of power handling, I hope I am ok. My pending setup which is going in my nissan maxima is
-Eclipse cd8053 w/8v pre out
-MTX 5400x 5 channel amp (configured as: 25 Watts x 4 into a 4 Ohm load with less than 0.1% Thd+N, 200 Watts RMS into 2 Ohms with less than 0.5% Thd+N)
-Image dynamics idq10" sub

I'm looking for sound quality and I dont blast my music. I hope the the older db's can handle this power that I am going to give them (that is if I can find a set).

[exalted512]

the old DBs can handle 25 watts easily
i would never recommend the mm6s with only 25 watts
since you have a five channel, id run 25 watts to the tweet, 25 watts to the mid, and lose the crossover
-Cody

[unrealii]

When the amp was tested at mtx, it put out nearly twice that amount rms watts. However, the eclipse hu that I have doesn't have an amp built in, so I have to use this mtx to power the entire system, otherwise I would only power the fronts and sub with the amp.

[MacLeod]

First off I would say sell the stuff you got now and grab a set of MM6 or wait til the MMC6500s come out, if they ever do!, and I think youll be happier.

Cody is never going to let me hear the end of this but, you should really consider upgrading your amp to one that puts out a good bit more power. Especially if you go with the MMs. They need at least 100 watts to do em justice and Id recommend around the neighborhood of 125-150. Im not into mega decibels either but you need a good amount of power for your speakers to play cleanly and effortlessly. Check out most SQ competitiors rigs. They are usually running 150+ to each channel.

I would say dump the rear speakers, get you an MTX Thunder 502 (125x2) and a Thunder 421 (420x1), a set of MM6 and go to town!

[unrealii]

Attached is the originial birth sheet of the amp. I would really like to keep it since I got it for a good deal, and I have not budgeted replacing the amp in my radio upgrade. I'm already $150 over on the hu, but I bought it because it was clearanced out by goodguys and seemed to be a good sq hu.

Dont know if this is important to mention, but I planned on running new wires from the amp to the speakers in the doors. However, I found out that there is a connector for the door wires, so I will use a molex connectors to connect to the speaker wire right before the door connector. My dad will kill me if I start drilling holes. The tweeters are in the dash, so the xovers and tweeters will be directly wired to the amp.

[unrealii]

Here is another sheet. My amp mysteriously (bass stopped working) broke and I sent it in. This sheet makes no sense in the numbers though

[spud]

edited

[MacLeod]

Do you think MTX could possibly be MORE conservative on their ratings!?

Those are some pretty impressive numbers. Especially the .03% THD and 109 SNR!

OK, youve convinced me. Keep that amp. However run it in a bi-amped configuration. I still say dump the rear speakers and buyy the MM6 and run the tweeters off the front channels and the mids off the rear. This gives you more flexibility in tuning and will deliver enough power to make them perform well.

[exalted512]

ok i didnt know if it was a fluke or not, but macleod is officially converted...
but anyway, dude, the old DBs are truly awesome...theyre as detailed and a little warmer than the momos
bi-amp
55 watts to the tweeter and 55 watts to the mid(hopefully you can find one!) is awesome
if you bought the mm6s, youd be playing them under their potential, however with the DBs that will give you a perfect match!
my vote goes to going to ebay and finding an old DB mid
-Cody

[unrealii]

If bi-amping will make a huge difference, I may go for it. The only thing is that my hu doesn't have a pre-amp. I can downgrade to the next model, save myself $10 and lose 16v balanced out, gold plated connectors and digital in. Doubt any of that would make a diff to me.

I found a place that has mm6's for $200. Tweeter has mmc6500's for $219 (never heard of these, nor could find details about them on polks home page).

I would definitly like to go with the db's because they are cheaper. How well do they hold up in terms of reliablility? I know there are a few auctions here and there (please dont post em, I'll find them).

[neomagus00]

yay for biamping, way more flexibility

also yay for balanced output, i'd stick with that for the $10. where did you find the CD8053, cause eclipse doesn't have specs online. i just wanted to check, cause you seem to be under the impression that they have no preouts, but don't balanced outputs count??

[exalted512]

i thought you said your HU had 8volt preouts?
which reminds me, you need to call MTX and ask if their amps can handle 8volts...some cant
but im pretty MTX does...but better safe than sorry
and as far as reliability...fear not...people still have those speakers (including Jstas on this forum) and love em to death
-Cody

[neomagus00]

i've just been scanning mtx's stuff, and i'm pretty sure they take 8-volt.

[unrealii]

Here is the specs for the cd8053: http://www.eclipse-web.com/cgi-bin/com/pdflog/cnt02.cgi/Cat_L.pdf
I paid $430 for it from good guys. Tweeter has the CD8443 for $420.

The cd8053 only has preouts, it has no rms power. If I bi-amp, I get no rears:( This is concerning me because I have a decent sized car (maxima).

I called up mtx and my amp does accept 8v. For the 16v balanced out, it will cost me an extra $100 for the adapter and another set of rca's. Think I'll stick to 8v.

[exalted512]

most people that go for SQ dont use rear speakers
-Cody

[unrealii]

Originally posted by exalted512
most people that go for SQ dont use rear speakers
-Cody
Really? Damn, looks like I need to do some more hw. Would the time alignment settings on the cd8053 help at all if I wanted rears?

[exalted512]

really...most SQ competitors run only front speakers so the sound stage will be in front of them
if you run rear speakers it will bring it back
the whole point of cds is trying to get it to sound as close as it can to actually being at a concert
have you ever been to a concert where the sound was coming from behind you?
but i do run rear speakers and i do use time alignment and it helps out A LOT
my next vehicle will not have rear speakers though
whats not to like?
better sq
cheaper
less stuff to break
less stuff to wire
:D
-Cody

[fairlynew1]

how exactly does bi-amping work? im a little confused on that...

[neomagus00]

yah, for sq go w/o rears. way simpler to configure. the only possible advantage i can imagine is simply more dB's... up to you, but rears make it much much more difficult to get it to sound good. if you like a true live-concert effect, you can put the rears in with a bandpass from maybe 200-2000 Hz or thereabouts with a lot of delay... to simulate the rear-wall reflection.

[exalted512]

bi-amping with a 4 channel amp is hooking up one tweeter to one channel, the other tweeter to another, the mid to another, and the other mid to the other
then set the HP and crossovers appropiately
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Im a big fan of bi-amping. However the only real advantage to bi-amping is that you can adjust your tweeters ouput a lot better than you can with the -0, -3, -6db adjustments on your crossover.

The disadvantages are that 4 channels are usually bigger and can be more expensive than an equivalent 2 channel.

[fairlynew1]

well if i were to say, bi-amp my dx 6.5 components, that have a 40 watt rms, and my amp does 40x4, so could i do 40 to the tweeter, and 40 to the mid and still be ok? and could i use the crossover that came with them for just the tweeter, as in, use the input, and then only use the output for the tweeter?

[exalted512]

im not sure if i understand you correctly
if you bi-amp you do not need the crossover that came with the speakers, you use the crossover on the amp
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Not necessarily my brother. Most amps only have low pass and high pass filters. Some like the Polk and JL have full range X-overs but most like MTX, RF and Alpine to name a few dont. They either have fixed X-overs at 80 Hz or they are variable from like 30 Hz - 500 Hz. Most dont go high enough to X-over a tweeter.

I bi-amp my Momo 6x9s and I use the Polk X-over for the tweeter and the mid gets full range with the amps low pass filter on crossed at 80 Hz

[exalted512]

i didnt know that...
truthfully...the only speakers ive seen bi-amped were all on pretty high end amps
-Cody

[MacLeod]

It made a night and day difference in the SQ of my Momos. Granted most of the improvement came from doubling the power from 40x2 to 80x2 but with both gains set the same, the tweeter is way too bright. Turning the gain down a smidge and adjusting the treble controls nailed it right in the sweet spot! I just think it wouldve been harder to nail it with only -3 db increments (-0,-3,-6).

But therein lies my problem. Im 90% sure Im gonna go with the MM6 or the MMC6500 for my "hi end system", but finding a 75x4 amp is going to be pricey! 50x4 amps can be had all day for $300 and below. Hell I can get an Orion, one of my favorite amps, 50x4 from a dealer here in town for $300! The next model up, the 100x4, is more like $600!

I may just go with the Orion which is probably putting out more like 60x4 anyway and live with the 120 watts per channel instead of the recommended 150.

[unrealii]

Lucky for me, my mtx has a 40x frequency multiplier, so I can adjust the frequency between 2000 - 8000Hz . The only thing that scares me about it is that its just a button I press and if something hits it, my tweeters will be toast. Would it be ok, to run the db crossover just on the tweeter signal to prevent any damage if the settings were to be messed with?

[exalted512]

you can still hook up the crossovers
-Cody

[unrealii]

Excellent. Thanks.

[fairlynew1]

so now if i were to use my 40x4 amp on my dx 6.5 compontents, would they be alright, getting 40 to the tweeter, and another 40 to the woofer? being that their rms is 40?

[exalted512]

if the RMS is 40watts for both speakers...that means you put 40 watts into the crossover and the crossover splits it up
what speakers are you talking about though?
40 watts is pretty low for component speakers...
-Cody

[MacLeod]

The power doesnt always split equally. Some crossovers use resistors to only allow a certain amount, say 33%, to go to the tweeter and the rest to the mid. I dont know if all X-overs are this way but some are. I know for a fact the Diamond Audio X-overs are 'cause I wrote to the tech dept asking this very same question and that was the answer I got from them.

[fairlynew1]

dx series 6.5" components, as i said earlier :)

[exalted512]

DX...do they have blue tweeters?
-Cody

[unrealii]

Originally posted by exalted512
DX...do they have blue tweeters?
-Cody
From the pictures I have seen, yes.

[exalted512]

thats what i was thinking...vince(poweredbydodge) has 200 watts going to each crossover on his DX components, i have one of the DX tweeters in my truck because i accidently grounded out my MOMO tweeter...and i have 200 watts going to the crossover and the tweeter handles it pretty damn well...
not to question you or anything...but are you sure DX components are rated at 40 watts...i thought they were like 75ish...
-Cody

[fairlynew1]

acording to polks website, the recomended amp power is 5-100, continuous is 40, and a peak of 130, so i just went with the 40 to be safe rather then sorry

[unrealii]

Originally posted by MacLeod
The power doesnt always split equally. Some crossovers use resistors to only allow a certain amount, say 33%, to go to the tweeter and the rest to the mid. I dont know if all X-overs are this way but some are. I know for a fact the Diamond Audio X-overs are 'cause I wrote to the tech dept asking this very same question and that was the answer I got from them.
Any idea if the polk db crossovers are like that? I have a set of inline filters for tweeters, but those belong to my ex3500 (http://www.generationindia.com/personal/sale/tweetersSmall.jpg) tweeters which I am selling to a friend. I am getting $15 for them, so would it be better if I kept those tweeters just for the inline filters?

[exalted512]

im pretty sure all crossovers are like that
and yeah...keeping the filters isnt a bad idea
-Cody

[fairlynew1]

so does this mean i can do 40 to each component and be good to go?

[neomagus00]

probably... but you probably won't want 40 to the tweets. since they're generally more sensitive, you need less power to them. you'll probably end up (after gain adjustments etc.) with a max of like 25 watts to each tweeter, which is okay. the mids'll be happy with 40 too.

hey cody, what do you mean by "grounded out" your tweet? i thought they got pinch hitters :p?

[exalted512]

those tweeters will take 40 watts easily...unless my momo crossover filters 175 watts to the mid and 40 to the tweeter...
the DXs can handle a lot of power
-Cody

[fairlynew1]

good, yaah, more power, louder music. :)

[MacLeod]

Originally posted by unrealii
Any idea if the polk db crossovers are like that?

I dont know if Polk sets up their crossovers like that or not. Youd have to check with their tech department. I would say they do. Im pretty sure most manufactuers put a tweeter protection in their x-overs and this is usually a resistor or even a light buld (MB Quart music comp).

As far as power, if Polk recommends power at 5-100 then 100 will be fine. They will underrate their speakers in case some young hoodlums like to use enough power to light a town (coughCodycough :p ). So if 100 is fine then 40x2 (80) will be just fine.

[exalted512]

yeah, well...6 momo subs later ive come to the conclusion that more is not always better
lol
that doesnt include the mm6 mid that the lead came off of or the mm6 tweeter that i blew...
-Cody

[unrealii]

I called up polk and asked about my tweeters using the EX filters. The guy said not to do that and said I should get a 4.9-5Mu 50 non polarized capacitor and wire it up on the positive lead. He said to also turn on the slope adjustment 12 or 18db on my amp. I just checked my amp, I dont see any adjustment for that slope. He also told me that adding these capacitors will degrade sound quality. If so, I dont want to do that, but I want to make sure my components will be protected.

However, another idea just popped in my head. What if I bridge the 4 channel part of my amp into 2 channels and run the signal through the db crossover? YAY, or nay? I will probably lose a lot of flexibility in terms of adjustment though. I will call polk up tomorrow and see what they think. Here are the specs (http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/archive/thunder5400x.cfm) of the amp if anyone is wondering.

My DB midrange speakers should be on their way soon :)

[neomagus00]

i'd say bridged would do quite well; you'd lose the point of using a 4-channel, but it would provide much more power too. if given the choice b/w degrading my sq and having less tweet flexibility, i'd pick bridged and loud over flexible, quiet, and less clear.

[MacLeod]

Im not sure why Polk said not to bi-amp those. If the rated power handling is at 100 rms and you bi-amp a 40x4 that shouldnt hurt your speakers.

Once you bi-amp your speakers youll have to turn your tweeter gain down anyway or it will be waaaay too bright so your tweets will be getting less power anyway.

My Momo 6x9s are rated at 100 rms as well and Ive got them bi-amped with a 40x4 and they sound great!! Ive had them like that for a few months now and have had zero problems. Ive not done any super loud listening but I do listen to it pretty stout.

The Polk teckies know a hell of a lot more than me so Im not saying theyre wrong I just dont understand their response.

I dont like bridging 4 channels. First off it more than doubles the distortion. Second your amp will be playing balls to the wall all the time and thats not that good either.

If it were me Id go with the bi-amping. Im not really recommending this cause, like I said, the Polk guys are experts and Im not even close and I dont want you to mess up your gear, Im more just telling you what I would do cause Im stubborn and like to do things when Im told not to! :D

[exalted512]

polk said not to use the inline filters from his old tweeters...not to not bi-amp them
-Cody

[neomagus00]

why would they say that then? does the xover circuitry somehow depend upon the mid being there??

[unrealii]

The tweeters have different ohm rating. The ex's are 4 and the db's are in the 5's (I think). Could be those filters ex filters are designed exclusively for those ex tweeters.

Here is a pick which has the line filters for those of you who are wondering clickie (http://www.generationindia.com/personal/sale/polk1Small.jpg)

I did not have a chance to call up polk today. I'm really busy for the rest of this week, so I'll probably give them a call next week or so. This install isn't going to happen any time before late june, because I have school.

[neomagus00]

you have school till late june?? bummer - i gradjitate in a couple days !! w00t!!

[unrealii]

It is until june 18th :( I also need to figure out a way to ask my dad to modify the stereo because he wanted me to sell my amp, sub, and tweeters with my old car. He doesn't like me investing any money in my car, but I'm in it for at least an hour a day, so I feel it is a smart investment (spending a reasonable amount on the stereo, any other mods are pointless imo) for me.

[neomagus00]

why don't you just transfer the old stuff to the new car??

[fairlynew1]

because that might make sense....
:)

[unrealii]

Transfering to new car takes more time which I dont have until finals are over.

I had a quick question...my amp only accepts 2-4-5 channels inputs. If I chose to bi-amp the front I have to select 5 channel and use a splitter to split my 2 channels to 4 channels and my sub channel will come directly from the hu. Is this ok to do?

[exalted512]

Originally posted by unrealii
and use a splitter to split my 2 channels to 4 channels and my sub channel will come directly from the hu. Is this ok to do?
huh?

[unrealii]

nevermind. The guy at goodguys, I over looked the fact that I can use all 4 channels from the hu and send those all to the front.

[unrealii]

ok, ok...listen to this. I think I may have figured out a good combination. Let me know if this sounds stupid or not.

It was suggested to bi-amp the fronts, but I lose my rears. However, if I were to power ALL the speakers, 2 channels of amplified power will go to the front and 2 channels to the rear. The front would be connected to the crossovers which would feed the front tweeter and front speaker. Now I just throught, what if the midrange signal from that front crossover goes to the rear, and now I can send an dedicated amplified channel to each of the midranges on the front.

Benefits:
-all speakers in all locations are working for me
-I almost get "bi-amp" on the front

Cons:
-time alignment feature on the hu gets thrown off??

[neomagus00]

that would be sweet, but you're losing an xover on the mids. depending on how things are hooked up, you're either giving them a lowpass or a highpass xover, and they really need both.

why run rears?

[unrealii]

Originally posted by neomagus00
that would be sweet, but you're losing an xover on the mids. depending on how things are hooked up, you're either giving them a lowpass or a highpass xover, and they really need both.

why run rears?
The head unit has a parametric equalizer. I dont know if that can make up for that or not.

About the rears, I dont know, I'm just stubborn about it. Maybe I guess I can try it without the rears and see how I like it.

[MacLeod]

Try it without the rears for a while. It will be wierd at first but once you get used to it Ill bet you start hearing a lot more detail out of your system. The reason that is, is when you have the same sounds coming at you from several different distances it can smear the detail and you can miss a lot. Trust us, there is a reason virtually ALL SQ competitors run no rear speakers. If you just have your heart set on rears then thats fine. Its not a bad thing its just not the best thing.

[neomagus00]

eh, there's no reason not to try it without the rears for a while. and the para-eq won't help here. well, it could if it's way cool and you can equalize diff't channels separately, but that's the only case.

[unrealii]

Alrite, I'll give it a shot. I've got 3 pairs of old school DB speakers on my way, 6.5" for the front, and 5.25", 6.5" for the rears because nissan used both sizes for the rears and I didn't have time to check which one mine was. Oh well....speakers should be here by friday. I just need to grab some wire, and a pac swix steering wheel controler, then 2 weeks from now, this system goes in:)

[exalted512]

sounds good:D
post pics
-Cody

[unrealii]

Minor update. I returned the eclipse. I needed either mp3 (which it doesn't have), cd changer ($300), or sateliate radio (not available). So now my seach for a head unit continues. I'm starting to look towards pioneer premier, more specifically, the 860 model. I am also considering the eclipse 5444, but doesn't offer as much value as the pioneer does...so we'll see.:)

[exalted512]

i like my pioneer, either way you cant go wrong
-Cody

[MacLeod]

I dont like Eclipse very much. They are fine head units and all but are ugly as homemade sin!!!

Alpine is my head unit of choice. I think they look awesome and have great features.

Pioneer is also a great unit, probably my 2nd favorite.

Clarion pulls up the rear with my 3rd favorite. Good looking and good performance at about the same price.

But honestly, none of the major names will be bad choices. Kenwood and even Panasonics new units are fine. JVC and Sony are lagging behind these days in quality and Id stay away from the Dual and Audiobahn stuff altogehter. I have no reason why, just a gut feeling.

[unrealii]

I decided to go with the eclipse. I have a deposit on a cd8454. 10 more days, finals are over then it is time....:D

[MacLeod]

The Elcpise will be fine. Im not that big a fan because Im not fond of their design but they do make good performing equipment. I especially like their amps. Good clean power and at a reasonable price too. 130x2 for $300 or 85x4 for $400 aint shabby especially with .004% THD and 105 db SNR ratings!

[exalted512]

i want a new deck, im tired of this one already...lol
even though i havent even gone through everything on this one yet...
i just need to be rich and have 20 different cars with 20 different systems...
yeah...thats what i need to do...
pretty simple...now all i need is a few million dollars...
*looks in between the cushions*
-Cody

[unrealii]

HAHA, yeah I wish I was rich. I would have paid someone to install my system instead of patiently waiting until I'm free. I ended up going over my budget for the hu, but that doesn't matter because I'm sure this will keep me happy for a long time. I'm also learning from my friend's mistake, he bought a $175 pioneer and less than a year later, he's ready to upgrade to the pioneer 8600. If you add up the costs of those two head units, thats more than what I paid for mine.

I liked the eclipse better than the alpine or pioneer. I listened to all three, but at some frequencies where the sound levels off, eclipse kept on going. One thing about the pioneer is that it did not scroll through the entire music cd text. I dont know if that was a setting which wasn't activated on this sound board or if that is how pioneer does it. Another plus is 3 year warranty versus the 2 or 1 years the others had. Lastly, the eclipse's screen seemed to line up very well with my factory hu lcd, so I can strip the behind of my factory face and do an installation similar to this: http://maxima.cardomain.com/memberpage/407837/6


BTW: I have a set of used 6.5 DX series midranges that I do not need. I ended up buying the DX's, then found brand new DB6510's, so I'm going to use those. If someone wants the DX's, PM me.

[unrealii]

Anyone know how to fix these?

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18913

[unrealii]

All the parts are ready to go :) I tested the head unit and all my speakers today. The two things which are scaring me the most are running speaker wire through the doors, and making a bracket so that I can mount my hu like I mentioned in the link above.

Also, I was wondering is it worth running the External Bass Control knob? On my previous car it made sense since the amp was running off the factory hu. Now that I have an aftermarket hu, is the EBC really needed?

[exalted512]

i dont use any type of bass knob...it makes it sound horrible IMO
-Cody

[unrealii]

Thanks for the help. The new system is in and sounds good. I still need bazillions settings that I need to tweak.