MOMO speakers and external crossovers

[dnewhous]

If I were to put MOMO speakers in my car (98 Plymouth Voyager), where would I put the external crossovers?

Could I stick them somewhere in the cavities where the wires are run from the receiver to the speakers?

[exalted512]

anywhere youd like provided they dont get kicked, bumped, or wet
-Cody

[neomagus00]

or you can stick it in a tupperware container, and in doing so screw up your entire system...

no, really, anywhere that it won't get stepped on or wet and that it has room to breathe is fine

[bknauss]

Most people find a place inside the door skin to slap it on (assuming there is a factory spot for the 6.5" there).

[AustinKP]

If you can, put them somewhere accessible so you can adjust them later. I put mine in my doors, so if I want to change anything, I have to take the door panel off. That's fine, cause I never adjust them, but just make sure the location is waterproof. Just listen to your speakers before sealing them in case you want to attenuate the tweeters. When I rewire my car for my amp, I'm going to set the tweets to -3dB
-Austin

[neomagus00]

good points... yeah, tune beforehand and try to make them slightly accessible for when (not if :D) you change your setup later.

[dnewhous]

Can you set the external crossovers to filter out all sound below a certain frequency?

I am trying to think of a lazy man's way of adding a subwoofer without the need to buy additional amplifiers.

[neomagus00]

um... im not sure what youre getting at. no, the xovers receive a fullrange signal and just split it in to 2 parts, no bandpass for the mid... that's left to the amp.

how do you plan to drive the sub w/o a dedicated amp??

[dnewhous]

You can buy subs in boxes with amps already loaded. I was trying to think of a way to prevent the sub sounds from going to the main speakers without additional external crossovers and/or external amplifiers.

Kind of like a home A/V receiver typically has a subwoofer crossover point. I see that it isn't doable.

[exalted512]

your head unit might have a crossover
you have your components running off the HU right?
what kind of comps do you have?
you can get bass blockers...or capacitors
-Cody

[neomagus00]

arent bass blockers just caps with a cooler name?

yeah, check and see if your hu has an xover, that'd do it

if you're planning on running mm6's, you really shouldn't off the hu... they deserve an amp

[AustinKP]

Originally posted by neomagus00
if you're planning on running mm6's, you really shouldn't off the hu... they deserve an amp I'll vouch for that. I've been running mine off the HU for a month or so now. I just bought an amp, and ordered my wiring kit from knukonceptz yesterday. I can't friggin wait to hook this thing up!!!

[neomagus00]

its a world of difference... youll love it!

[dnewhous]

Alright then, if I were to go all the way I would want an external crossover with outputs for the front and rear speakers and 1 output for the sub. One sub box to serve for front and rear speakers.
I really wish Polk made a power port sub box for the car. Lacking that, passive radiator designs will do but standard ports suck.

I like the Momos 'cause they're bi-amp ready so I don't have to find special mounting spots for the tweeters.

So I would need one rather large external crossover and 4 external power amps. (I still would want to get a sub box with the power amp loaded for convenience). The most important question is, where would I put all the electronics? On the floor?

Bonus quesiton: Is there a receiver with 2 digital outputs? One for front and one for rear? I looked at Pioneer's flagship unit and it only has 1 digital out.

Note: If I were to go far enough to get separate power amps for the main speakers I would definitely go further and biamp them.

[bknauss]

Originally posted by neomagus00
arent bass blockers just caps with a cooler name?


Yes. There seem to be a lot of things in audio that are rebadged with a cool name and the price is jacked up a lot.

[exalted512]

Originally posted by dnewhous
Alright then, if I were to go all the way I would want an external crossover with outputs for the front and rear speakers and 1 output for the sub. One sub box to serve for front and rear speakers.
I really wish Polk made a power port sub box for the car. Lacking that, passive radiator designs will do but standard ports suck.

I like the Momos 'cause they're bi-amp ready so I don't have to find special mounting spots for the tweeters.

So I would need one rather large external crossover and 4 external power amps. (I still would want to get a sub box with the power amp loaded for convenience). The most important question is, where would I put all the electronics? On the floor?

Bonus quesiton: Is there a receiver with 2 digital outputs? One for front and one for rear? I looked at Pioneer's flagship unit and it only has 1 digital out.

Note: If I were to go far enough to get separate power amps for the main speakers I would definitely go further and biamp them.
are you talking about the momo comps or coaxials?
im lost here...
and yes neo, you are correct, theyre overpriced capacitors
but ive bought them before and would do it again...theyre only like $5 and it makes things easier, you get them at the same place...so yeah
-Cody

[dnewhous]

The coaxials.

[neomagus00]

biamping them is cool... you don't need an external xover; it wouldn't hurt, but it's not necessary, just use the bass blockers.

generally, other than the hu, in a standard install, everything's in the trunk somewhere.

why would you need four amps??? if you're biamping two coaxes, just one four-channel will do...

[exalted512]

i thought they come with extrenal x-overs?
-Cody

[dnewhous]

The external X-overs with which they come are no good for biamping - by definition bi-amping means you have the crossover before the power amps, not after.

Front high and mid, rear high and mid. That's a total of 8 channels. If you use a 4 channel amp (didn't know they made them) then you still need two of them.

The thing is, I know they used to make crossovers that would separate the outputs the way I desire - biamping for both the front and rear speakers with one subwoofer to serve for all. Looking at the crossovers available now, both external and built into the receivers, I don't see this configuraton supported. You can have front, rear, and sub; or high, mid, and sub but not both together.

[neomagus00]

okay, so two fourchannels, one for front and one for rear.

im still confused about your usage of front/rear/high/mid in relation to xovers.

lets start at the beginning: what exact model of speaker are you looking at?

[dnewhous]

MMC690 and MMC525.

[neomagus00]

for the 6x9, you're amping the main part off one channel, then the pod off another, with two speakers. that's one 4-channel that does ~50W apiece (actually, one that did something like 2x40 and 2x60 would probably be better). in order to not need an external xover, this amp needs a bandpass on 2 channels and a highpass on two.

for the 5.25, same thing, with a 35x4 amp serving, a 30x2&40x2 being better. and same with the amp situation.

now, while it would significantly overpower these speakers, the 400.4 is ideally set-up for them, namely it's pre-eq button. this button sets up a bandpass for the mids and a highpass for the tweets, at all the right frequencies. to make it real easy, i'd say get two of these, keep the gains down, and call it a day. unfortunately, it would be an expensive day, $1100 to be approximate.

for the 5.25s, the Alpine MRP-F240 would be perfect. now, this doesn't have the xover flexibility you need, so you need something like the AudioControl 6XS before your two amps. finish up with, say, an MRV-F340 for the 6x9s.

so you have: front and rear outputs from HU, into the audiocontrol xover, which will put out eight outputs. four go into the MRP-F240 for the 5.25s, and four into the MRV-F340 for the 6x9s.

total MSRP for this setup: $200 for the F240, $400 for the F340, wiring, xover.
total MSRP for polk amps: ~$1150 for amps, wiring, NO xover.
so, if the audiocontrol xover costs more than $550, get the polks (assuming you'd go with either of these setups). and this is all MSRP, look at www.sounddomain.com, www.acaraudio.com, www.onlinecarstereo.com, www.speedsound.com, www.crutchfield.com (last resort) too.

Alpine MRV-F340 (http://iweb.alpine-usa.com/pls/admn/item_info?p_item_name=MRV-F340&p_category=40&p_subcategory=120&p_main=10)
Alpine MRP-F240 (http://iweb.alpine-usa.com/pls/admn/item_info?p_item_name=MRP-F240&p_category=40&p_subcategory=120&p_main=10)
AudioControl 6XS (http://www.audiocontrol.com/MobileAudio/Products/Crossovers/6XS.html)

[dnewhous]

All those retailers you provided links to don't exist anymore with the exception of Crutchfield. I start with Crutchfield just to get an idea of what's available on the market.

I downloaded the 6XS manual. I see their recommended configuration is to have only one pair of mids and two pair of tweeters. That might be a good idea. But, how would I mount a pair of tweeters in the holes for the 5 1/4" speakers without 5 1/4" speakers?

What manufacturer makes the 400.4 you mentioned?

[exalted512]

Originally posted by dnewhous
All those retailers you provided links to don't exist anymore with the exception of Crutchfield. I start with Crutchfield just to get an idea of what's available on the market.

I downloaded the 6XS manual. I see their recommended configuration is to have only one pair of mids and two pair of tweeters. That might be a good idea. But, how would I mount a pair of tweeters in the holes for the 5 1/4" speakers without 5 1/4" speakers?

What manufacturer makes the 400.4 you mentioned?
all of them exist, but he put a comma right after the link so it comes out like sounddomain.com,/ when you click the link, take the comma out and youre good to go, Polk makes the 400.4
-Cody

[neomagus00]

on the 6XS - there is no rec'd config, there are just suggestions. it's meant to be the be-all and end-all of xovers; but i just thought of something. to xover tweets, you need to get a different module for that unit from audiocontrol... how much, you ask? no clue.

why are you mounting tweeters without mids?? the reason i suggested the 6XS is that it has eight outputs, one for each speaker. four go into the "front" amp, four into the "rear" amp. they're xovered the same, with the tweets at ~3500-4000 Hz (depends on what modules you can get) and a bandpass on the mids (the tweet xover at the top and ~85 at the bottom for the 5.25 and maybe ~70 for the 6x9).

[dnewhous]

Originally posted by neomagus00
on the 6XS - there is no rec'd config, there are just suggestions. it's meant to be the be-all and end-all of xovers; but i just thought of something. to xover tweets, you need to get a different module for that unit from audiocontrol... how much, you ask? no clue.


I'm not sure what you are looking at. The 6XS manual shows the 8 outputs of the 6XS as being 2 for subwoofer, 2 for mid, and 4 for high.

I thought this might be a good idea because 6" X 9" mids sound better than 5 1/4" mids; plus the mids will travel better from rear seat to front seat than the highs.

The 400.4 has an input sensitivity adjustment that should deal with the overpower issue just fine.

What do you all think of the Infinity Basslink 10"? I like its compactness.

[neomagus00]

well, 6x9 bass sounds a lot better than 5.25 bass, cause there's more of it, but 5.25 midrange will sound tighter and cleaner than the equivalent 6x9's midrange - there's a reason components are round.

i'm pretty sure the 6XS is very configurable... if you do it in this way, you lose fader capability (well, it just gets all weirded-out), but it works:
you'll have one tweeter amp and one woofer amp. feed the highpass outputs to one four-channel (with appropriate module installed in the 6XS; don't even think about hooking it up until you get the right one in there, or else it's bye-bye tweeters). then, feed the "front lowpass" (actually a bandpass) and the "subwoofer" (again, a bandpass, using a separate subsonic module) outputs to a second amp, for your woofers. use the subwoofer output for the 6x9 channels.

so you need two modules that are highpass at say 3500 and two that are lowpass at 3500 (the first two for tweets, the second two for woofers). then you can use the bigger amp's provided xover for highpass on the woofers... im not sure if there's a separate HP for each pair of channels, but if there's not, you can just set it to about 65-70 and be just fine. or set it a bit higher and get bass blockers for the two 6x9 woofers.

now you ask, can i get these modules? if you can't get them from audiocontrol, the manual provides easy instructions on constructing them yourself. more specifically, you'd need 32 2-kilo-ohm .25 W carbon or metal-film resistors of 5% or better tolerance. or, seven of these (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=271-1325) at your local RadioShack, for a mere seven dollars. total. for an xover of about 3300 Hz, which is fine. this leaves only the MSRP of the 6XS itself in question.

[neomagus00]

oh, and someone did a comparision of the basslink vs. the w00x recently... does anyone remember this?? i have no idea where i read it...

[dnewhous]

The Kenwood wooX is obviously too small and underpowered to be of any use with outboard amplified MOMOs. It is obviously intended for people who want a powered sub with main speakers powered from the receiver.

At Epinions.com the Infinity basslink has rave reviews. I wanted to make sure the basslink didn't have lame reviews like the JBL basspro.

My plans are to get MOMOs and a nice receiver now, do subwoofer and outboard amps later. Only...the current receivers from Pioneer aren't HD ready and Kenwood's Excelon don't offer BBE. I may wait another product cycle. I am a patient man.

If you don't know anything about BBE, it's been used in professional P.A. systems for years. The idea behind it is that the inherent inductance of speakers causes the high frequencies to get delayed relative to low frequencies. The BBE process delays the low frequencies to compensate for this. It doesn't totally correct for the effect of speakers but it makes a big difference. The with/without effect of it that I have heard in music stores is that it acts like a demuddifier for sound and is most noticeable in the lower midrange.

BBE makes a processor for home theater systems, but since Americans were too dumb to buy it it is now only available in Europe and Japan.

[exalted512]

powered subwoofer systems suck ass
i can get an amp and a JBL GT 12 sub for less than the cost of a basslink and itll get louder and sound better
powered subwooder systems=stupid lazy man's bass
-Cody

[dnewhous]

Originally posted by exalted512
powered subwoofer systems suck ass
i can get an amp and a JBL GT 12 sub for less than the cost of a basslink and itll get louder and sound better
powered subwooder systems=stupid lazy man's bass
-Cody

What enclosure would you use?

And who makes the best subwoofer amps?

[exalted512]

if its a simple square enclosure, id make it myself
and as far as who makes the best sub woofer amps...id say brax and tru technology are some of the best...but they are in upwards of thousands of dollars...do you have a price range?
-Cody

[dnewhous]

Wow.

Yeah, say $600 or less.

What do you think of the Kicker loaded sealed enclosures? Making my own subwoofer box is not an alternative.

[MacLeod]

If you have to buy an enclosure then make sure its made out of wood. 3/4" MDF is best. A lot of pre made boxes are plastic! Polk Audio makes a good one and JL Audio makes a great one but its also $500! It could also be an option to have a shop throw one together for you.

Kicker makes damn good amps. Plenty of clean power.

My favorite amps are, in order, JL Audio, Orion and MTX. Rockford Fosgate, Kicker, Xtant and Alpine V12 also get an honorable mention.

For under $350 I go with MTX.

Anything over that Ill stick with JL Audio and Orion.

[dnewhous]

What about Phoenix Gold amps?

Kicker puts a 150 watt 12" sub in a sealed enclosure (3/4" MDF). This is the amount of subwoofer I would want. When you go up in $ from there you quickly get into 600 watt monsters that I have no interest in.

Rockford and Phoenix Gold make 150 watt sub amps. The Phoenix Gold is the more expensive one - it has a subsonic filter.

Also, I don't see that you get more for the same amount of money than the Infinity basslink. A minimal subwoofer amp costs about as much as the entire basslink subwoofer (~$300). I suppose if you assume you build the enclosure yourself that might make alternatives more appealing.

Still, it is nice that buying a sub and amp separately will get you a speaker cone that is made out of something other than "treated paper."

[exalted512]

wrong
this amp (http://www.acaraudio.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=46&products_id=1132) is only $170 and will power a JBL sub, hell, itll power a mm12 rather nicely
$180 for the mm12, 170 for the amp, $350 total with enclosure...
-Cody

[dnewhous]

Originally posted by exalted512
wrong
this amp (http://www.acaraudio.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=46&products_id=1132) is only $170 and will power a JBL sub, hell, itll power a mm12 rather nicely
$180 for the mm12, 170 for the amp, $350 total with enclosure...
-Cody

Is the MM12 a discontinued item? The price on it looks like a bit of a fluke. That's less than half retail.

[exalted512]

no, they were just always overpriced
-Cody