Integrated vs. separates - What would you do?

[polkatese]

I am in the market for a solid two channels integrated amp that will be able to handle LSi15 4 ohms load (i.e. high current amps). A couple questions to all:

1. Has anyone been able to observe a *noticeable* audio quality difference between a solid integrated and a preamp/power of comparable price bracket?

2. Any recommendation(s) of worthy to audition integrated amps (preferably with discrete and separate toroidal monoblock for each channel design) in the $1k - $2k price range?

TIA for your feedback and comments..

[dcarlson]

Musical Fidelity falls into your price range.

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/a32series.html

[polkatese]

thanks, it is on my list, any opinion on MF amps profile?

[tryrrthg]

I just bought a used Arcam A85 and LOVE it. I am replacing McCormack seperates which are pretty fantastic themselves. The Arcam has gotten great reviews and it is uprgradeable to become a 5.1 preamp for surround sources. (I am not sure if Arcam has come out with the upgrade yet...) The Arcam is rated at 85 watts into 8 ohms and around 150 for 4 ohms. However, stereophile's review measured around 120 at full power and 200 watts into 4 ohms. The A85 powers my Dynaudio speakers with ease and they are known for their appetite for power. The reviewer even used my Dyn's in his review of the Arcam below.

Arcam A85 Review (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/arcam_a85.htm)

I believe the A85 has been replaced by a new model, the A90 and has a little more power...

If you want a little more power the FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) line from Arcam is a step up. The FMJ A32 is a great integrated amp also, and can be found used in your price range.

FMJ A32 review (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/arcam_a32.htm)

[tryrrthg]

Just remembered two other integrateds in your price range (used prices). The Plinius 8100 and 8200 are great amps from what I have read. You should also have no problems getting a used Krell KAV 300i in your price range. And we all know Krell would have no problems powering LSI's!

[Zero]

If this A3.2 integrated does not do the trick for me, I will be looking at the Arcam 90 integrated.

[dcarlson]

Originally posted by ATCVenom
If this A3.2 integrated does not do the trick for me, I will be looking at the Arcam 90 integrated. Are you saying you have it or are planning on getting it?

[Zero]

Its on the way.

[dcarlson]

Cool. :)

[polkatese]

Thanks all for the comments and recommendations, I will go through the process. One research note, Krell 300i at $950+ (used, discon.) seems to be well known to have great bass control and dynamic...

Sean,
can I put my first dibs on that MF, just in case :D ;)

[dcarlson]

Originally posted by polkatese

Sean,
can I put my first dibs on that MF, just in case :D ;) LOL, we all know him too well, don't we? :D :p

[Zero]

Eff you all !

[Early B.]

1. Has anyone been able to observe a *noticeable* audio quality difference between a solid integrated and a preamp/power of comparable price bracket?

Polkatese -- no one really responded to your first question yet. Great question. I, too, am interested in hearing what folks have to say about this issue.

[dcarlson]

Personally, if I had oodles of cash to spend I'd go separates. I don't, so I can't. With separates, on top of the separate boxes you need to budget for an extra set of interconnects and an extra power cord of similar quality to the components you're matching up. That could be quite a bit extra but probably worth it in the end because you're talking separate power supplies for pre and amp. IMO, at $1000-$2000 retail, an integrated would be a better bang for the buck.

[polkatese]

Originally posted by dcarlson
Personally, if I had oodles of cash to spend I'd go separates. I don't, so I can't. With separates, on top of the separate boxes you need to budget for an extra set of interconnects and an extra power cord of similar quality to the components you're matching up. That could be quite a bit extra but probably worth it in the end because you're talking separate power supplies for pre and amp. IMO, at $1000-$2000 retail, an integrated would be a better bang for the buck.

that is what I think a very sound approach to the process (of deciding). So far, Krell, MF, Arcam FMJ look very promising. From cost perspective, it seems that Krell KAV300i (used) is a strong contender from value point, unless someone can point me to a comparison between 300i, A32, and/or A3.2

[TroyD]

Personally, I think a good integrated amp is a good thing.

I have a couple and while I haven't really A/B'd them to separates, I really really like them.

F1 has a high tone MF integrated that is STELLAR. Also if you've got that kind of cash, a Jolida integrated might be in your price range as well as maybe CJ. Not sure about new but definately used. I think a hybrid tube integrated is a the way to go.

Hell, Sam Tellig in Stereophile routinely reviews integrateds in that price range..go online and look over his past reviews and then go out and get your demo on.

Just my .02

BDT

[I-SIG]

Originally posted by polkatese
that is what I think a very sound approach to the process (of deciding). So far, Krell, MF, Arcam FMJ look very promising. From cost perspective, it seems that Krell KAV300i (used) is a strong contender from value point, unless someone can point me to a comparison between 300i, A32, and/or A3.2

I've seen stuff here an other places that the Krell you speak of doesn't quite live up to Krell's reputation and that it is a bit disappointing. Maybe someone else can be more specific for me.

Wes

[dorokusai]

I think the integrated is also a very good idea. A high quality integrated will perform very well at all levels. I was close to picking up the NAD S300 before moving into a different bracket.

The separation of internal components typically gets MUCH better the more money you spend, and I know you are looking into a quality piece....so that whole argument for the NEED for separates is almost moot. I mean that in the shielding of the internals, etc.

I personally have not heard huge differences in like priced integrated amplifiers. The differences were always subtle, not extraordinary.

I vote SS Integrated. I am looking forward to hearing of your choice.

[pjdami]

edit.

pm sent.

[F1nut]

Paul's amp is a very nice one.

Some other nice used ones would be,

MF A 308 - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1092906454

MF Nu-Vista - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1094643398, It's a grand more, but a wonderful amp with a tubed pre section. Dual Mono with seperate power supply.

Audio Research CA-50 - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1094666793

Classe CAP 151 - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1094436388

Another Classe CAP 151 - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1094305391

Ayre AX-7 - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1094048117

MF X-150 - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1093931557

Another MF A 308 with warranty - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1092410065

MF A 3.2 - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1093205843. Dual Mono

There are more options if you don't need remote control.

[goingganzo]

seprates are better sence you can buy a great amp. sence a great amp is great amp. olny thing you have to upgrade is your pre. and most pre you can upgrade them instead of buying new. but you also have cost.

[polkatese]

Thanks, Guys! Jesse, that's a very comprehensive list, gracias!

Paul, reply sent! (first one went thru, second one rejected, time to clean up your inbox, Pauly....:)

A wonderful support group at work!

[F1nut]

"seprates are better"

Wanna bet??? :D

[dcarlson]

How's this? :D

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/kwframeset.html

[polkatese]

Originally posted by dcarlson
How's this? :D

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/kwframeset.html

Is that the new model of MF BBQ grill? :D :D

It looks great, and I won't even dare to venture on how good it must sound, one day when the kids are out of the house, I might be lucky enough to afford one....

[goingganzo]

I WONDER WHAT THE DAMMAGE IT WILL COST TO OWN 1 OF THOES OR MAKE THAT 2 sorry about the caps it got stuck and dient want to re type

[LuSh]

For over 20 years most Audiophiles agreed amp/pre amp was the only way to get truely high end sound.

Then a strange French company took that myth and turned it on its head. YBA. Yves Bernard Andre' challenged that myth citing that amp/preamps require interconnects that break the chain. His approach was keep it simple stuipd. With one power supply, fewer interconnects he contended that you could deliver an intergrated amp that was truely high end.

This really changed the industry. Suddenly other higher end companies were focusing on high end intergrated's. Canadian company's such as SimAudio and Classe' have come up with some wonderfull intergrateds, perhaps some of the best in the world. The SimAudio i-5 and Classe' CAP 151 have limited power, but employ high high current...and are suitable for all but the hardest loads. The Plinius intergrated's are also well regarded. The YBA's are to this day considered a reference point when talkin about intergrateds.

Some day if I ever won the Lotto, I would go amp/preamp...but within the next 5 years I'm going to try and upgrade my SimAudio -5080 to a Classe' 151 or SimAudio i-5. And i'll be very happy. Either one of those intergrateds could outperform most of the amp/pre's talked about within these forums.

[wire]

I went from a Carver receiver 150 per to a Carver ct17 - Bryston 4b , There was a difference in sound , that was a longtime ago and still run the same system today , not many changes in the 4b since then and the Carver pre runs smooth .

[F1nut]

The king of integrated amps. :D

[dcarlson]

Originally posted by F1nut
The king of integrated amps. :D
So.... How's about a pic of yours. ;)

[TroyD]

Originally posted by F1nut
The king of integrated amps. :D

No one likes a braggart...:D

I'd also invest in better locks on your doors. :D :D :D

BDT

[F1nut]

Huh? I don't have one of those, I just like the picture.

[tryrrthg]

Originally posted by F1nut
I've finished up my demo time with the Nordost Solar Wind cables, a big thank you to Mark for puting this together and Paul from Granite Audio for suppling the cables.

I'll ship these out to Al as soon as I get the address from Mark.

Now for the review......................

Equipment list:
Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300 Integrated Amp 475 wpc @ 6 ohms
Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista SACD Player
Polk Audio SDA SRS 2.3TL Speakers with Cardas Gold Binding Posts and MIT Magnum Jumpers
MIT MH-750 Shotgun Bi-Wire Speaker Cables
MIT S1 Shotgun Interconnect Cables

LIAR! :D

[dorokusai]

He is a liar! The only stereo he actually has is a pair of Radio Shack speakers tied together with a vintage Adidas headband that he uses for headphones....while he sits around barefoot in his Simon & Garfunkle tour tshirt. Musical Fidelity my ass! :D

[TroyD]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Oh, and for those that MIGHT consider a smash and grab at F1's, first, you'd never find the place, two....duelling bandjoes, need I say more??

BDT

[dcarlson]

Originally posted by TroyD
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Oh, and for those that MIGHT consider a smash and grab at F1's, first, you'd never find the place, two....duelling bandjoes, need I say more??

BDT I hope you're not talking from experience. :D :D

[dorokusai]

Troy looks real purty with an apple in his mouth.

[TroyD]

All I remember is sitting in front of F1's speakers and getting whiff of chloroform.......Woke up with a headache and a sore ass. I dunno what happened.

BDT

[polkatese]

quick update guys: I went with Krell 400xi. Review to come after burn in. Thanks again for all the feedback.

[audiobliss]

Let us know what you think....

[goingganzo]

my thery of the benefits of seperates.
1 when you upgrade your pre to get new teck you can usaly get at a good price qand you dont have to replace your amp.
2 better warentee. beter quality so they offer a better warentee.
3 quality. i mean the adcom 7 channel amp is way more dynamic and powerfull than the onkyo internal amp and the differance is olny 25 wats.
4. more features i have a auto on with my sunfire when i turn on a sorce it will tune to the sorce and turn everything on that i need turned on. or if i got the anthem i could tweek everything from a-z.
5. the am dont bake the other componets becues they are in the same box as the amp.

[mantis]

polkatese,

good choice. I believe you'll love it.

Dan

[polkatese]

Thanks, Dan. I'll report back, it is definitely a gorgeous looking silvery slim design, with plenty of high-current toroidal juice...phoeey, that's a mouthful!

[Loud & Clear]

This theory that an integrated improves the sound by removing interconnects from the chain makes no sense to me. I mean, aren't exotic interconnect cables the reason that the equipment on the whole sounds good? Why would you want to remove the wildly expensive interconnects when they make the source, amplification and speakers so much better than they really are? I attempt to introduce as many interconnects to my system as I possibly can in hopes of making the sound better and better with each addition.

[dcarlson]

If you can afford separates at the level of Polkatese's new integrated, you'd better well be able to afford the interconnect to match. That could potentially be pricy. That's the difference, not that an integrated is better.

[sowen010599]

Ahhh Krell. Good high end stuff. My only critiquie with them is, they are sooooo soooo neutral. I mean "dead" neutral. They are so ridiculously laid back. Just kinda blah, too lifeless for me. Pair up a Krell amp and some B&K's and you have yourself a system fit for the catatonic ward at the state hospital.

[audiobliss]

Originally posted by Loud & Clear
This theory that an integrated improves the sound by removing interconnects from the chain makes no sense to me. I mean, aren't exotic interconnect cables the reason that the equipment on the whole sounds good? Why would you want to remove the wildly expensive interconnects when they make the source, amplification and speakers so much better than they really are? I attempt to introduce as many interconnects to my system as I possibly can in hopes of making the sound better and better with each addition.

The idea I got was that the better the interconnect, the less your sound is degraded. I thought that your components made the sound good, and the better your interconnects, the less they took away from that.

However, I'm running a meager system and have never used any interconnects besides what has come with my stuff, so take what I say with a grain of salt......or a salt-shaker...:p

[F1nut]

You can't rely on IC's to improve what's not there. They can not make the gear better than it actually is.

Some separates are better than most integrateds and there are some integrateds that are better than most separates. It's the basic quality of the gear that matters most.

Polkatese.....Congrats on a fine piece of gear.

[polkatese]

Sowen,

so far the Krell is actually a bit more aggressive than my B&K. It is powerful in driving LSi9 (that I have it paired with) though, the low end is tighter and a tad more powerful than a Rotel. I've been told that burn in on the Krell to be in the 100 hours+, so I am reserving my judgement till then.

Jesse, thanks! I am impressed with its build quality and it looks solid.


Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!