2 channel or 5.1?

[MacLeod]

Hey guys, the ol' lady is making noise about getting a better HT set up. Shes leaving it up to me cause she dont know squat about this. My primary budget is for car audio as Im wanting to compete in the next season so Im limited. What I was wondering is wether you guys would recommend going with a basic 5.1 speaker system like this (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-DXALsd2wnfy/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=132150&I=107RM6750T) or go with a good 2 channel, floor standing set like a pair of these. (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-DXALsd2wnfy/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=12000&I=107MON60C)
I listen to music more than movies so thats why I was leaning towards the Monitors.

I have a Sony 2 channel receiver that put out 100x2 RMS so I could spend a little more on the speakers as I would have to buy a 5.1 receiver if I went that route.

Any thoughts? As it stands Im leaning most towards the Monitors.

Actually, Circuit City has the R30 on sale for $180 a pair. This is good isnt it?

[gatemplin]

Hi MacLeod,

I think most of the responses you will get will be to steer you towards 2 ch. The R30s are pretty good but as always have a listen before you buy.

[Airplay355]

i vote for 2 channel too

[RuSsMaN]

2ch baby.

Do you have a Tweeter in your neck of the woods? If so, pop in and look / listen to the T90e (Euro version of the Monitor 60).

I think they still have them on sale for $350/pair (half off).

Does that Sony receiver by chance have a set of pre-outs?

Cheers,
Russ

[MacLeod]

Im actually suprised. I figured everybody would be rooting for the 5.1 system. After all, these are all the rage for HT arent they? Ive only got 1 buddy with a Kenwood 5.1 system and it isnt that impressive. Other than that Ive not had much exposure to HT.

Yeah, Ive got a Tweeter right down the road. I think I will stop by and check those out. That would be great if I could snag some good Polks for $350 a pair!

The Sony Im using is a mini system I bought back in 1998. Its a 51 disc changer and is set up for 2.0 surround (pre-dates Pro-Logic). Im using it in 2 channel mode now with some decent Sony 3 way bookshelf speakers. A better receiver will definitely be in the plans for the future just not right now. Still it puts out good clean power and 100x2 RMS aint too shabby.

[RuSsMaN]

Mini system?

Man.

You don't dick around with your car stereo, treat the home rig the same.

If the Sony can drive the Monitors, go ahead, but do us ALL a favor and don't stop there. Good sound CAN be had, for not much coin - just let us know when you are ready to start shopping. I see a high-current integrated amp, with preouts and a remote in your future.

Cheers,
Russ

[Shizelbs]

I vote for 2 channel.

[F1nut]

2 channel and get a better receiver/integrated/separates.

[Frank Z]

5.1 or better!! Best of both, multichannel for music and movies, plus you've got a 2 channel system built in.

[danger boy]

2 channel vote here too. and get the best fronts you can buy. they will work well if you later decide to go 5.1 down the road.

[Toxis]

2ch for now because you will eventually build it into a 5.1 setup. Piece it together and be happy.

[Joey_V]

Go with a solid set of speakers for 2 channel. Then, when you have more money (or experience or time or desire), then build around it with some surrounds, a center channel, and a good solid subwoofer.

Always start with the basic building blocks. If you buy the 5.1 HTIB, you might spend more money later on when you decide to run with the big boys.

However, if you are satisfied with HTIB speakers, then by all mean, save your money and go for it.

In the end, it's all what you want out of it.

[MacLeod]

Sweet! Muchos grateful for the replies. Im thinking 2 channel it is.

So I should get the amp next? I know in CA a watt is a watt and although my faithful Sony is a little dated, 100x2 RMS is 100x2 RMS isnt it?

[jcaut]

Not necessarily.

Manufactuers sometimes take great liberty in the way that they rate equipment. I know nothing about the Sony system you have, but if it's a mini-system, I think 35-40 REAL, low distortion, full-bandwidth watts might be pushing it. What's the max current draw listed on the back near the power cord?

BTW, I vote for two-channel too. ESPECIALLY with regards to choosing speakers. HT is not all it's cracked up to be, IMO, though it can be neat, fun, etc. Of course that's JUST my opinion and others may not agree. Build a 2-ch rig that sounds good for music, if that's what you do the most of. HT can be added later.

[MacLeod]

Dont misunderstand, this isnt a boombox. It has an actual amp sticking out the back and its pretty good size.

Max current draw is 200 watts. That sounds about right to me. Isnt it?

[jcaut]

I think I know the type of system you're talking about. More like a rack system? Individual components sold together as a system?

Think of it this way: If the max power comsumption at the AC line cord is 200 watts, then the maximum possible output would be 100 watts per channel, both channels driven, IF the amp operated at 100% efficiency, which doesn't happen. I'm not sure, but I think 60%-70% is about the best you do.

The specifics aren't that important. Just don't assume that because it says "100 Watts per channel" that it's equal to all other 100Watt amps, in terms of power output. That's just oversimplifying things. The real question is will it drive the kind of speakers you're looking to purchase, at the volume levels you expect to listen to? Beyond that it becomes a question of "quality" of amplification--- and believe me, there IS a difference. So, you could most certainly do better in the amp department than what you've got, but you might get by with it if you choose speakers that aren't too demanding. Better speakers almost always need better amplification in order to live up to their potential. And I think most here would agree that even the lower-end Polks are good enough speakers to benefit from high quality amplification.

A good used receiver or integrated amp wouldn't cost a lot, and would help make the most of a speaker upgrade.

I realize that this has kind of gotten off topic from your original question of HT vs. 2ch. It's my opinion that you have to put a lot of money into a HT setup to get the kind of sound quality for music that could be had with just a modest 2 ch rig. After all, with HT you'll be buying 5 channels of amplification, 5 speakers and most likely, a subwoofer. Since you say that you listen mostly to music, I think 2ch makes more sense. But use the money you'd save over the HT setup to buy better speakers AND upgrade to a better amp.

Jason

[dorokusai]

Mac - Nice to see you over here. First off, time to move the Sony out the door. The mini-system component is not ready for your stated task.

Skip the R30 idea.

What's your complete budget if you were to buy just main speakers, and a new way to power them? $500....$1000?

I vote HT, BUT start by building a 2CH, and decide later if you want to go further. You may find you get more enjoyment out of the 2CH rig, and decide not go HT....who knows. I just built two rigs, problem solved.

I would definetly check out the T90 suggestion, as this would get you a really decent pair of mains from the starting gate.

[smglbrth]

What Russ said, I agree totally. Start dreaming about a good integrated amp..........:D

[amulford]

Go two channel to start, and BUILD....:D

[Joey_V]

Oooooh.... here comes the fun part! Speaker choosing!! :D

[jdhdiggs]

I agree with the majority here. If you only have the budget to do the 2-channel system correctly, only do the 2-channel. If your budget was in the $3K range, definately go the 5.1 route, but around $500, 2 Channel is the only way to go.

[Sami]

PM Early B., he has a pair of LSi7's for $300 shipped. It would be hard to find better speakers at that price.

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24078&highlight=lsi7

Expand to 5.1 when your budget is up to it.

[steveinaz]

See my sig below....

[tonee]

I had the same problem. So i went and purchased 2 new components and a set of two monitor50bk floorstanding speakers. I made the right choice and I think you will too.
these monitor 50's are awesome. Clean, crisp, undistorted , pure unidultirated sound! I like music also but will hook up to my tv and cable. Even with 2 channels it still sounds great with my movies as well.:D

[Joey_V]

PM Early B., he has a pair of LSi7's for $300 shipped. It would be hard to find better speakers at that price.

Actually, it is hard to find a better bookshelf than the LSi7 at its retail price of 699$. :)

[audiobliss]

Hey Mac, gald to see you're interested in making a better home audio system. From hanging around the CA forum, I've picked up on the idea that a watt is a watt is a watt, and that they're all created equal. This most definitely is not true with home audio. They may be created equal, but some are more equal than others....though I don't think they're even created equal, lol.

As for your amplification, get rid of the Sony as soon as you get enough money. You know how you're supposed to avoid Sony in CA? Well, do the same for home audio.

I'd also suggest going with a modest, but adequate 2 ch. system; you can later add on to make a 5.1 system (or 7.1) and will end up with a much better system. At first, I thought Sami's idea of the LSi7s was really good; but, then I thought better of it. The LSi line speakers are very demanding and probably wouldn't even work at ALL with your Sony. You should probably go with the T90e speakers at Tweeter. I haven't heard them, but from all the talk about 'em on here, you can't go wrong; especially for $350 a pair.

Let us know how this all turns out, man!!

[Sami]

Originally posted by audiobliss
The LSi line speakers are very demanding and probably wouldn't even work at ALL with your Sony.
LSi7 isn't demanding. Even with poor amplification it plays, and sounds pretty good. Not a reason to disregard this speaker.

[audiobliss]

All the speakers in the LSi line are 4ohm speakers. I don't know much about Sony, but I wouldn't wanna use one to power 4ohm speakers....

though $300 is a very, very good price.....

Edit: Mac, just in case you didn't already know, the 'standard' for speakers in HA is 8ohms, whereas CA speakers are 4ohm. You know that the lower the resistance the higher current the amp must be and the more demand placed on the amp. I really wouldn't wanna find out if your Sony could handle it....

[Sami]

Originally posted by audiobliss
All the speakers in the LSi line are 4ohm speakers. I don't know much about Sony, but I wouldn't wanna use one to power 4ohm speakers....
Even my old Pioneer receiver would play them loud. Early nineties cheap "2x100W" Pioneer so I doubt the Sony would be much worse, if at all.

I am now driving all LSi7 5.1 setup with a receiver. It's 70A though so it packs nice current for a receiver. Next thing he would upgrade would be the Sony of course, like everyone has said so no need to worry... :D

Add a subwoofer later on with those 7's and it's quite a nice 2ch system. I was VERY suprised when I first played the 7's. Got three pairs without auditioning as the deal was so good (Fry's refurbed). Now I wish I would have bought a few pairs more...

[audiobliss]

1) if your Sony will power them and not fry itself
2) you can implement with a sub
3) afford an LSi set-up if you choose to go HT (you probably won't find the rest of the speakers at such a great deal)

I say get them. They're undeniably are very good speakers.

[MacLeod]

Thanks for all the replies fellas, Im grateful.

My budget is fairly petty. My main priority is my truck system as Im going to be competing and I want to buy Polk's new "big dawg" line when it comes out mid next year. Plus this is going to have to be saved over the next few months so say $400'ish for the speakers.

You guys have also convinced me to move up to an actual receiver. The T90 (or Monitor 60) idea sounds the best. Great looking speakers to with the right price so those are more than likely the ones we'll go with.

As far as receivers go, I would like to go Sony. My TV, DVD, VCR, and computer are all Sony and all have worked flawlessly so other than speakers Id kind of like to stick Sony. That in mind how about this one? (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sony-Surround-Sound-Receiver--STR-DE597-/sem/rpsm/oid/90107/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) Awesome price and 100x6 looks to be pretty good. So what am I missing?

Should I go with a stereo receiver instead? A lot cheaper. Like this. (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sony-Stereo-Receiver--STR-DE197-/sem/rpsm/oid/94241/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)

How good are Onkyo and Harmon Kardon?

Ya know, its kind fun being a newbie again and not knowing squat! A whole new world out there to explore! :D

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

MAN EFF SONY! :p

Look for the discontinued Outlaw Audio receiver, one of the best, if not the best deals for a receiver...

[danger boy]

i can understand you wanting to keep things all the same brand.. but if i were you.. also keep in mind.. Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, Pioneer. in your price range. I think you get "more" bang for you buck out of those brands over Sony.

some people, not all mind you have said their Sony receiver are under powered when it comes to some speakers.

Look for a high current amp receiver.. that will be the best power for any speaker.

[MacLeod]

Well, Id dont think Sony sucks, and I would like to keep everything uniform.

However this isnt a requirment its just that I dont know which brands are really that good (other than Denon which costs too much) and I know the Sony will work just fine assuming its as good as all my other Sony equipment.

There seem to be a lot of choices out there for $200. Sony, Onkyo, and Yamaha all make 100 watt per channel reveivers. I never thought they were so cheap! I wish you could buy 600 watt car amps for $200!

[audiobliss]

Again, run from Sony........'nuff said....

I would pay as much for a receiver as you were planning, but go with a stereo one; more quality that way. Onky, Harmon Kardon, Denon, Pioneer Elite, Outlaw Audio, Yamaha - they all smoke Sony. Probably in your price range, I'd look at Onkyo. Also, see what the prices for some of Outlaw's stuff is; I'm not familiar with their prices, but they have excellent equipment at very good prices. A used Denon, Pioneer Elite, or Marantz would be very nice, too.

Good choice with the T90e's.

[audiobliss]

Originally posted by MacLeod
There seem to be a lot of choices out there for $200. Sony, Onkyo, and Yamaha all make 100 watt per channel reveivers. I never thought they were so cheap! I wish you could buy 600 watt car amps for $200!

Maybe they do come with a lot of watts......but they ain't good watts. Check out the THD. I'll bet it's 0.9%. I also bet they aren't capable of putting out 100 continuous watts all channels driven.

My Yamaha RX-V1400 (was $800) supposedly puts out 110 watts through 7 channels. I'm sure that it can't put out 110 all channels driven (quite a few people say not even in stereo), but it's THD is 0.04%, so it's clean watts. You don't really get what's advertised until you go with separates or pay BIG, big bucks.

[danger boy]

check here (www.vanns.com) for some decent prices on receivers like Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood, HK in your price range. or slightly higher. in the $300 price range.. it opens up lots more choices.

it's up to you though of course.. it's your bucks.. go with Sony.

[smglbrth]

If you want to spend cheaper $'s you could also go Refurbished. Some don't like the idea, heck I didn't either, but for the office I didn't have the cash to dump right away. So..., I went to www.ecost.com and bought a refurbished Onkyo stereo receiver, the 8211 since I only have bookshelf speakers. It has an Onkyo factory warranty so I figured I'd try it. That was about 5-6 months ago and I haven't had any problems.

Just a thought...

[danger boy]

if you're set on Sony.. check this one out (http://ww3.onecall.com/PID_19370.htm#) it appears to be a lot of receiver for little $

[audiobliss]

I don't like it; why?
1) It's Sony
2) It's probably plastic
3) It's Sony
4) 0.7%THD (0.09% actually, I guess)
5) did I mention it's a Sony?
6) It doesn't say anything about powering 6ohm, 4ohm speakers; just 8ohm



How long is it going to be before you upgrade your receiver/amplification again? If it's going to be a while, I'd go with a stereo receiver by Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Outlaw (do they a make 2-channel receiver?), or Harmon Kardon.

If you're going to replace it again soon......well, then......just go with what you'd replace it with now.....:p

[dorokusai]

Here we go with the Sony bashing. I'd love to hear actual experiences as to why and actual ownership is the only thing that is worth hearing or with merit.

[danger boy]

my SONY PS2 that is. Waaaaaaaaa!

:p

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

One of the first receivers I owned was Sony...

I sold it within 2 weeks, infact I hated it so much, I solid it and went without music for several months...

It was a cheaper model, 80x5, not sure the model #, but it was terrible. The yammer I bought afterwards was much better and didnt cost much more...

[Mjr7531]

Originally posted by audiobliss

6) It doesn't say anything about powering 6ohm, 4ohm speakers; just 8ohm

Actually, I've noticed that they have recently been rating their receivers @ 6 ohms, low-brow? Yes, but, it means that they can most likely handle some 6-ohm "stuff"

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Yeah, but receivers like Yamaha...

That have the 4 ohm 'switch' -

it cuts the current draw in half so you dont eff up the receiver at higher volumes... So it dosnt help much to start with lol

[chenj16]

Originally posted by MacLeod
I know the Sony will work just fine assuming its as good as all my other Sony equipment.

Assumption fails for the ones(DE597, DE197, etc.) you're looking at. The only good stuff from Sony in home audio that competes in the league is the ES line. They however cost much more!

[chenj16]

Originally posted by audiobliss
I don't like it; why?
1) It's Sony
2) It's probably plastic
3) It's Sony
4) 0.7%THD (0.09% actually, I guess)
5) did I mention it's a Sony?
6) It doesn't say anything about powering 6ohm, 4ohm speakers; just 8ohm


7) It weighs like a VCR :D (DE597: 9lb, DE197: 7lb :eek: )

[chenj16]

Originally posted by audiobliss

6) It doesn't say anything about powering 6ohm, 4ohm speakers; just 8ohm


HK receivers don't have spec for under 8ohm either, what's wrong with them, too conservative maybe??....

[dmalino]

Originally posted by MacLeod
Thanks for all the replies fellas, Im grateful.


As far as receivers go, I would like to go Sony. My TV, DVD, VCR, and computer are all Sony and all have worked flawlessly so other than speakers Id kind of like to stick Sony. That in mind how about this one? (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sony-Surround-Sound-Receiver--STR-DE597-/sem/rpsm/oid/90107/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) Awesome price and 100x6 looks to be pretty good. So what am I missing?

Should I go with a stereo receiver instead? A lot cheaper. Like this. (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sony-Stereo-Receiver--STR-DE197-/sem/rpsm/oid/94241/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)



I own a Sony receiver and can say it's no different sounding than any other in it's price range. It also has features not available on other brands like 2 multi channel inputs.

In the under $200 price range at CC, take a look at the Pioneer VSX514. Judging by the back panel pictures, it's the only one that cheap which has S-video jacks.

Onkyo's are great, HK's are great sounding but I've heard that a few of them have been breaking as of late.

If you decide to push your budget higher, visit some of the private hi-fi shops in your town (look in the yellow pages) and look for brands like Arcam, Rotel, NAD and Cambridge Audio.
The private shops usually have better listening rooms too.

[dorokusai]

Originally posted by chenj16
Assumption fails for the ones(DE597, DE197, etc.) you're looking at. The only good stuff from Sony in home audio that competes in the league is the ES line. They however cost much more!

The DE197 is as low on the line as you can get. I bet other manufacturers low end are groundbreaking in their technology and performance huh?

The ES line does not cost "much" more, especially last years ES line which can be found for a song.

Do some research before you post.

Mac - The Sony line is the same as every other manufacturer, it starts out basic, and gets better with money spent. If you are interested in the ES line look for the following: STR-DAxxES and the STR-VxxxES Series. I don't suggest anything but the ES line personally, but it doesn't mean the Basic line is not adequate.

Trey - Great baseline for saying a product sucks, a singular experience, good work. Everyone has had a poor experience with one manufacturers product or another, it shouldn't mean the bashing alert goes off. You're educated about audio, why make such a newbie statement?

Dmalino - Thanks for posting a useful statement.

[F1nut]

Why someone would expect high fidelity out of a receiver from any company priced under $200.00 is beyond me. Sony makes a lot of gear and it ranges from crap to state of the art, so to just say all Sony gear sucks is wrong. The Sony ES series is decent stuff.

[reeltrouble1]

Mac,

I had one of those Sony systems you talked about to start this whole thing, it still works but resides with one my children, a good place for it, it might be a little newer than yours since it did Pro-logic, I remember plunking down like 700 bucks for it many years ago, a waste but hey what did I know? However, some of Sony's audio products just received very high praise in the latest issue of Sterophile, one of the snootiest mags out there, but there you have it, they make some outstanding gear.

I have pretty much ended my personal boycott of Sony based on how the CS department once treated me, however, I see losing my business for a while has not exactly put them out of business:o.

Have fun with your new system, whichever way you decide to go.

RT1

[MacLeod]

I realize Im not going to get Hi-Fi performance from ANYTHING with a $200 price tag but thats ok. But I also dont really want or need a bunch of fancy features. HoweverI think you guys have talked me out of going with Sony. Ill stick with them for video and electronics but look elsewhere for audio.

Right now, to go with my Monitor 60's Ill go with this Onkyo (http://www.cardomain.com/item/XTAXTANT61) 6.1 receiver for $270. That way if/when I decide to upgrade to 5.1 or better Ill have the receiver to do it. Right?

[audiobliss]

ROFL.......HAHAHA....I don't think that's the link you meant to post there.......

However, I would guess that Onk would be all right.

[danger boy]

Originally posted by audiobliss
ROFL.......HAHAHA....I don't think that's the link you meant to post there.......

However, I would guess that Onk would be all right.

hey maybe he only likes bass.. no stereo.. it's so much easier that way.. :p

Long live mono!!

[dorokusai]

I figured nothing real would come out of that challenge, so be it.

The Onkyo is a nice piece, have fun, good luck in what you do.

[danger boy]

it's ok Doro... i guess not everyone has the same goals when it comes to audio. that at least gives us all room to grow.

[dorokusai]

Is that sarcastic?

[danger boy]

Originally posted by dorokusai
Is that sarcastic?


naw.

just making a point. while if you asked most people in here what is the most important part of any rig.. most would say sound quality. I think we're all striving to reach audio nirvana.. I know I am.. but within my limits of knowledge and funds of course.

I'm just saying what i think would be nirvana, might not be any one else's. that's all. nothing more, nothing less.

[dorokusai]

Originally posted by danger boy
naw.

just making a point. while if you asked most people in here what is the most important part of any rig.. most would say sound quality. I think we're all striving to reach audio nirvana.. I know I am.. but within my limits of knowledge and funds of course.

I'm just saying what i think would be nirvana, might not be any one else's. that's all. nothing more, nothing less.

Ok, I guess I understand. Do you think I'm NOT trying to reach that level? I'm cool right now, let alone later. I also know you are doing great things....do you mean we have different goals? I would presume that is a given.

My point was that the Sony bashing becomes bandwagon, and it's so atypical. It's typically because of a singular experience with a low end product, thus becomes Godzilla mantra. Is Sony the end all? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

Is it without merit? No, I won't defend low end Sony, period....it is what it is; although you get what you pay for, in ANY manufacturer. Sony is simply an easy target.

It's funny to think of the people who hate Sony, yet the very CD/DVD player they listen to may in fact run a Sony transport. Sony is a heavy hitter in the transport biz, regardless of manufacturer, wake up America.

If you want to bash a product, and this isn't directed at you DB, you better have some balls to back it up. This place just rides wagons as far as Sony goes, been here a little while to notice.

[danger boy]

I couldn't agree with you more Mark.

well said bro.

[dmalino]

Originally posted by dorokusai
think of the people who hate Sony, yet the very CD/DVD player they listen to may in fact run a Sony transport. Sony is a heavy hitter in the transport biz, regardless of manufacturer, wake up America.[/B]

Plus they make a hell of a nice TV.
A lot of the Sony transports are manufactured by LiteOn.

[audiobliss]

I don't have a problem with Sony CD/DVD players, video equipment, game consoles, etc....

[dorokusai]

Originally posted by dmalino
A lot of the Sony transports are manufactured by LiteOn.

It certainly wouldn't be new for companies to outsource, but could you get some verification on that statement? I'm just wondering for my own notes.

[keith allen]

Man get those LSi's from E.B.,$300 thats a friggin steal...if ya really cant afford seperates right now,and I know that feelin Im just getting into them myself...you can get some real good carver stuff off ebay,dont care what anyone says...their amps are great,got mine for$256 delivered...225wpc!Got a carver preamp too,$197 delivered,it broke after a month (imagine that) $235 for repair and upgrade...it sounds fantastic,but I didnt make out all that well on it,got about $450 tied up in it now when you include oneway shipping for the repair and mods...retail was $700 new....sooo,what Im saying you can get into better stuff used,but I tell ya,denon,and nad both make 2 channel receivers that will run the 4ohm lsi's.I would recommend the denon dra 685,Im tellin ya this thing sounds great,it does a fantastic job with 4ohm speakers (doesnt melt down) and you can pick one up for $250 to $300 used,next get ya a powered sub,make sure its got speaker level inputs and outputs,the denon doesnt have sub out.I run my tv with my 2 channel system,and Im more than pleased,the sub really makes it on the movies,but my music sounds ohhh sooo goood!

[keith allen]

The onkyo tx 8511,very good receiver,and ya can now get one for around $250,its very powerfull and it claims to handle 4ohm speakers,but it doesnt do it very well...gets way to hot!Also it has a button on the back to switch from 8 to 4 ohm loads,ya dont want that.I you are going to end up with 8 ohm speakers Id say go for the onkyo,at 250 new thats a good deal,if ya go with 4ohm speakers,find a used denon dra 685 no switch on the back.I own both these receivers right now,so I have a lil knowledge about them

[MacLeod]

Well, I never buy used and really dont like to buy stuff online.

Im not going to be using this enough to warrant spending too much scratch on it. Plus most of my spare cash goes into my truck system. The Monitor 60 with either an Onkyo or Sony 5.1 or better receiver for $250 would be just about right for my needs.

Thanks for all the help guys. Info was invaluable! ;)

[F1nut]

Originally posted by MacLeod
Well, I never buy used and really dont like to buy stuff online.



You're selling yourself short. There are so many good deals on used gear it's not funny. You can get a lot more (better) gear for the money. A good place to shop is Audiogon, ePay sucks.

[sowen010599]

Originally posted by jcaut
Think of it this way: If the max power comsumption at the AC line cord is 200 watts, then the maximum possible output would be 100 watts per channel, both channels driven, IF the amp operated at 100% efficiency, which doesn't happen. I'm not sure, but I think 60%-70% is about the best you do. Huh? Do what? Current draw has NOTHING to do AT ALL with output. That little "200 watt" current draw on the back means squat. The stamp on the back of the unit is the maximum number of watts drawn from your 120v outlet. It has nothing really to do with the amount of watts your receiver puts out. Although, a receiver with a low power requirement, but a high output, is somewhat suspect (such as this Sony).

It's only there to satisfy UL requirements. It simply states that your receiver can draw up to 200 watts (1.7 amps) of power from your 120v outlet.

A funny thing though, some older Pioneer 2 channel 100 watt per. receivers are stamped at 500 watts max.

I would say, with a 200w max current draw, 'bout 40 watts per. would be tops before clipping at a gazillion THD.

[sowen010599]

I can't speak for home audio/video, but all Sony computer CD/DVD EVERYTHING is made by LiteOn. Burners, readers, etc. All of it.

[chenj16]

Originally posted by sowen010599
I would say, with a 200w max current draw, 'bout 40 watts per. would be tops before clipping at a gazillion THD.

this is reasonable ;)

[dorokusai]

Originally posted by sowen010599
I can't speak for home audio/video, but all Sony computer CD/DVD EVERYTHING is made by LiteOn. Burners, readers, etc. All of it.

That's great. It doesn't really matter, but when I see some real proof of that is when it will be fact for me.

[Sami]

Originally posted by sowen010599
I would say, with a 200w max current draw, 'bout 40 watts per. would be tops before clipping at a gazillion THD.
You seem to be supporting his view actually. He said "possible maximum output". :)

[sowen010599]

I never really went looking for proof. When you hold them both your hand, the Sony and the LiteOn, and they are friggin identical, it's more than obvious. You can even flash a Sony with LiteOn firmware. But, here ya go...

http://www4.tomshardware.com/storage/20041102/dvd_burners-09.html

"The Sony DRU-710A burner is based on the Lite-On SOHW-1633S. In fact, Lite-On now makes all the burners for the Japanese giant."

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=11459

"Lite-On is expected to OEM produce more optical disc drives (ODDs) for Sony, which will focus more on producing blue-ray drives, according to Taiwan ODD makers.

The Japanese company plans to phase out its production of own brand ODDs and contract more of the production to Lite-On IT, the makers stated. In addition, Sony also OEM manufactures ODDs for other makers, and these orders will be transferred to Lite-On IT, the makers noted. "


There's more if you hit up Google.

[dorokusai]

Thanks Sowen, I appreciate you actually taking the time to explain and prove your statement. That's what seperates the men from the boys IMO.

Liteon is a good company, as I've used their computer gear for quite some time.

[sowen010599]

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de//happy/xyxthumbs.gif

Well, thank ye.

Lite-On is, well, marginal. Toshiba, Plextor, Phillips, etc etc etc whip the Sony's butt. And I really hate the vibration dampers on the Sony/Lite-On. The motor has these loose ball bearings in it. It makes this weird scratching sound. Kinda like a cup of rocks.

Keep in mind I am talking about the computer drives.

Honestly? I would be a little disappointed if I bought a Sony DVD player with a Lite-On transport. Their computer drives are crap! Half the time, the burners wont even work out of the box. And when they do, you have to flash them with a hacked flash because they wont run at there advertised speed. Almost all of the 52x burners released this year would only burn at 40x out of the box. WTF is up with that?

[dorokusai]

I'm not sure, but I've used a bunch of Liteon drives with no major issues. The only thing that I do not like is the noise level of the CD-RW drives...they are real loud compared to the DVD drives they offer. The DVD's are real quiet.

No driver issues here, maybe it was a bad million drives that week, haha.

[MacLeod]

Originally posted by sowen010599
I would say, with a 200w max current draw, 'bout 40 watts per. would be tops before clipping at a gazillion THD.

Its definitely more than 40 watts. Ive been into audio long enough to know that the output this thing is capable of is way passed 40 watts.

I still believe it puts out its rated 100x2. The amp is big enough and in car audio at least, even the cheap-o amps make their rated power at least! I dont see why this would be any different.

[audiobliss]

Well, lemme remind you: car audio is very different from home audio. I'm sure several people here would be willing to bet a lot that your Sony does NOT put out 100x2 under any circumstances. Most do not put out what they're rated out; my $800 Yamaha, either.

[marker]

Originally posted by keith allen
The onkyo tx 8511,very good receiver,and ya can now get one for around $250,its very powerfull and it claims to handle 4ohm speakers,but it doesnt do it very well...gets way to hot!Also it has a button on the back to switch from 8 to 4 ohm loads,ya dont want that.I you are going to end up with 8 ohm speakers Id say go for the onkyo,at 250 new thats a good deal,if ya go with 4ohm speakers,find a used denon dra 685 no switch on the back.I own both these receivers right now,so I have a lil knowledge about them

Bottom line it for me Keith, which one just flat out sounds better in your opinion, the Onkyo 8511 or the Denon 685. I wanted the Denon, but I just bought the Onkyo brand new from CC for just $99 brand new in box. I figured that if the Denon is better, but probably not so much so as to justify the cost difference.

Only thing I dislike about the 8511 is the stupid spring clips for speaker wire instead of 5 way binding posts. A sub out would have been nice too.

I also have the little Onkyo MC35 TECH mini system, and the little mini-receiver has a sub out and 5 way binding posts, but their top of the line 2 channel stereo receiver doesn't? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

[dorokusai]

Audiobliss - It's rated to output that figure, BUT at a high distortion level. There are other factors that create this number, and the real number, but I'm trying to be simple.

You have to remember AB, that every manufacturer uses it's own testing procedure and will make everything look as pretty as possible. All manufacturers have validated figures from their lab, it's required, but it's THEIR lab.

Independent testing of that same 100x2 would most likely reveal 100x2 at an unbearable, and very audible distortion level.

[sowen010599]

Yeah, or 100x2 for one hundred thousand million billionth of a second, off a cliff, with a stiff tail wind, a ton of lead, and only with a full moon.

I'd even go so far as to say 20x2 would be more fair with a clean output.

Originally posted by MacLeod
Its definitely more than 40 watts. Ive been into audio long enough to know that the output this thing is capable of is way passed 40 watts. Remember, loud means NOTHING. With speakers that are even "moderately efficient", ONE WATT is WAY MORE than you will use for normal listening. Seems like I remember someone on here talking about a 5 or 10 watt amp (Russ maybe?). Almost everybody was like "What the heck for??". What nobody thought of was that a set of efficient speakers will go >100db with only 5 friggin watts.

There was a list going around here a while back with actual tests of several different receivers from different companies. All of the Sony "100 watt per" units chimed in at something like 20-30 watts.

[audiobliss]

...the truth rears it's ugly head.....

[dorokusai]

When you are over 90db x 1w, you are "very efficient".

10wTube on a Klipsch will almost blow your head off...bass won't be extraordinary, but it sure will sing like a banshee in heat on a Sunday night.

Sowen - You mean the S&V test? Oh yea, place your bets now folks, what a great power table that is....get educated if that's your reference.

Audiobliss - What are you referring to?

[audiobliss]

just the general idea in Sowen's post that manufacturer's claims aren't quite accurate

[sowen010599]

Not my reference, I don't even remember who made the thing. I just seem to remember seeing it around here.

Not all manufacturers are that misleading. Some are just waaaaaay out there. Like this Sony. Every worth a crap 100x2 amp I have ever seen has at least 400 watts of current draw from a 120v outlet. That Sony's not pulling its power from thin air. So it's either some new magic amplifier technology or BS.

[dorokusai]

Well, it seems as though Sony is the flavor of the month, so here we go, nothing new. Man, you Sony bashers should really start to read more, and hate less.

On a personal note: Just because I own a couple Sony pieces doesn't mean I'm a slave. I own and have owned way more other gear than Sony. I just cannot stand senseless bashing of gear.

Everything said in relation to Sony can be directly turned on the other major manufacturers, what don't you understand?

Pioneer all of sudden has become the benchmark of power and is perfect for you?

JVC is now the crusader of honest distortion and is perfect for you?

HK while honest in power ratings is now the iceburg of confidence and is perfect for you?

Wake up.

It's all subjective and basically a joke when you start comparing manufacturer data. If you think manufacturer data is the end all of information, then you have so so much farther to go as an enthusiast.

One review does not create an opinion, and if it does for you....then you should just drop out of this whole genre now.

I chose my gear based on reviews, ideas, recommendations, whims, thoughts...all kinds of things. I don't recall a single defining moment where I said, hey, the distortion level on that amplifier is pretty high at 1Kx1W...perhaps I should look elsewhere.

Get your ears on, not your wallet.

Anyone who wants to stop by and hear some high level Sony ES distortion, and terrible power ratings w/ clipping and breaker pops....your always welcome in my home....and I bet you'll leave with your tail between your legs. Bring your best material, I'm not worried about a damn thing.

Thanks for the thread, I'm outta here.

[sowen010599]

Whoa there dude. Geezus! Did I strike a nerve or what??

First off, I am not a "Sony hater". Sony's low end consumer stuff has the same issues as Yamaha, Pioneer, JVC, Panasonic, etc. They are ALL over-rater power wise. But if you get into their higher end stuff like ES, Elite, RX-V's, those are pretty damn good! I have nothing against Sony's ES equipment at all, I have always been impressed with it.

And I didn't say "ALL Sony", I said "this" Sony. You know as well as I do that there isn't any base line Sony anything that will ever see 100 watts.

Manufacturer data is meaningless.

[MacLeod]

Originally posted by sowen010599
Remember, loud means NOTHING.

Yes, I know. But I also know that the bass this thing is capable of putting out is way beyond the ability of 20-40 watts. I know the volume this thing can get up to CLEANLY can not be done with 20-40 watts.

Maybe its not the full 100 or maybe it is with tons of distortion. Whatever. It sounds good to me.

Either way Ill be getting a better one once finances dictates. And its going to be a Sony just to piss everybody off!! LOL
:p

[sowen010599]

Originally posted by MacLeod
Whatever. It sounds good to me. That is the only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing that matters.

[MacLeod]

Thats true but I must admit, if everybody is raving over Brand X and its getting all the hot reviews and everybody is oo'ing and ah'ing over it, it does make me want it more. :(

To a point anyway. Once something becomes very mainstream and start showing up all over the place Im done with it. Take JL Audio for instance. Ive always loved their gear but once it became "the official sponsor of the Ride with Funk Master Flex Show" I was done with them! :rolleyes: