Bookshelf v. Floorstanding

[MacLeod]

Other than size, what is the difference in SQ between bookshelf and floorstanding?

I went to Tweeter and looked around today and couldnt get a straight answer from the sales dude. Plus Im skeptical cause I just think hes trying to sell me the more expensive floorstanding.

The Monitor 40 is $300 on Crutchfield with dual 5.25's and the RTi6 is $380 a pair with a single 6.5. This is considerably cheaper!

Is there a difference in SQ or am I just paying for more wood? :confused:

[dorokusai]

I personally am a bookshelf fanatic. This can extend into a semi-large speaker, but I've found more enjoyment in a non-floorstander than I ever have in the latter.

[Frank Z]

Take a look at the frequency response spec's for the speakers you are comparing. Generally you'll find floor standing speakers offer better response than book shelf speakers.

LSi15
Overall Frequency Response 22Hz - 27kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 30Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz

LSi9
Overall Frequency Response 38Hz - 27kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 50Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz

See what I mean?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Thats a terrible comparison! LOL

The LSi15 has a built in subwoofer! lol

The RT55 and RT800 is a better comparison! lol

[MacLeod]

In a floorstanding speaker, is the entire box part of the enclosure or is most of it just extra wood to make it taller?

I would think in a floorstanding you have more room to work with and could tune the enclousre better. Is this the case?

Either way, it looks like I would be better served buying a set of RTi bookshelves than Monitor floorstanding.

[Early B.]

No straight answer. It's a personal preference, WAF, space considerations, children, etc. I've tried them both, but since I like lots of bass, give me a floorstander and a sub.

[Frank Z]

Depends on the manufacturer. Some make good use of the additional cabinet volume, others offer nothing more than a big box with a few speakers stuffed in it.

The LSi15's have a great design that improves the lower frequency response, and controls cabinet resonance (ARC Ports).

The Lsi9's offer incredible low end response, but still don't dig as deep as the 15's. As with all speakers, placement is critical. Regardless of what you chose, don't be afraid to play around with placement options.

[fireshoes]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Thats a terrible comparison! LOL

The LSi15 has a built in subwoofer! lol

The RT55 and RT800 is a better comparison! lol

Woofer, not subwoofer. It's not powered on the 15.

Anyway, on the floorstanding versions you will get deeper extension, thus a more complete sound. But if you are using a subwoofer with bookshelf speakers you won't notice the difference as much.

[reeltrouble1]

Sealed cabinets make for more precise movement of the driver cones but are less effecient needing more power, ported designs make better use of air movement inside the cabinet can play lounder with less poser but are less accurate and can result in what some call "muddy" low end, passive radiator designs are a sort of cross between the two, the radiator vibrates out when the mid-woofers move back in.

For true stereo I generally like floorstanders best, and of those the passive radiator design of the SDA.

It is very easy and quite fun to collect different speakers both bookshelf and floorstanding.

RT1

[okiepolkie]

I like bookshelves blended with a subwoofer better than most floorstanding speakers. It generally is more cost efficient to go this route as well.

[Loud & Clear]

Prefer my 55i's to my 800i's, and prefer my Monitor 10's to my Monitor 12's. Perhaps it's just coincidence.

[dmalino]

Originally posted by MacLeod
In a floorstanding speaker, is the entire box part of the enclosure or is most of it just extra wood to make it taller?

I would think in a floorstanding you have more room to work with and could tune the enclousre better. Is this the case?


You can tune the enclosure better with a larger box volume but you can build a sturdier box with a smaller volume. To build a large tower with the same rigidity as a small bookshelf requires heavier materials and more bracing thus more cost.

[Fulmer]

Having just moved from RT25i bookshelves as mains to R50 mains, I like the sound of the towers. The R line is at the bottom of the polk heap, and yet I really like the sound. I find myslef listening to two channel audio and really enjoying it. I can't say I did the same with the RT25is. Also, keep in mind the possible need for speaker stands with bookshelves.

[steveinaz]

Floorstander:

1. + Usually lower bass extension
2. + Usually more efficient
3. - Usually more resonant than a bookshelf
4. - More expensive due to additional materials

Bookshelf:

1. + Better soundstaging (smaller reflective surfaces))
2. + Better imaging (smaller, more rigid cabinet)
3. + Improved midrange due to lower resonance
4. - Can sound a little over-ripe in the midbass

[audiobliss]

I personally prefer towers. I really like to have some bass in my music, and I really don't have much room (or funds; or probably patience for tuning) for a subwoofer. I can't say much about bookshelf speakers having better imagine and a better soundstage. However, there's just something about a floor-standing tower speaker that draws me in. For one, I guess it's the bass; a lot more bass. Then, there's just the idea that it's a tower.......just seems, umm, 'cooler'....:p . Since you're coming up from car audio where the soundstage and imagine and everything are so compressed, I imagine that even floorstanders are going to be a lot better in both respects. I'm not nearly a critical enough listener (...yet...) to notice differences in soundstage and imaging.

If you go with bookshelf speakers....you will definitely need a sub. That's gonna cost you more than the extra $80 that the floorstanders cost....The, you're going to have to calibrate it to come in right where the bookshelves drop off, so you have a seamless integration.

Maybe it's just me, but I really prefer my bass coming out of floorstanders. Now, if it means floorstander, or floorstanders + sub with more bass.....I'd get a sub, too.....:D :D

[dorokusai]

Audiobliss - You simply havn't heard good bookshelves yet.

[audiobliss]

For an example.....As I was typing that last post, I was listening to Keith Urban's 'You'll Think Of Me', which I really like. So, I turned it up and set back to listen. It absolutely amazes me and tickles me to death that I can listen to stereo with just two speakers with no sub, have the receiver set to direct and bypassing the tone controls so I'm not boosting the bass......and still have the floor shake....!!!

I love it....:D :D :D :D

[audiobliss]

Originally posted by dorokusai
Audiobliss - You simply havn't heard good bookshelves yet.

Yeah, I'm sure that's true. It stands to reason that for the same amount of money, you can get a lot better quality bookshelf speaker with a lot better SQ. However, I'm not nearly critical enough yet to hear much of a difference between anything.....like, the cheap Panasonic speakers that came in my dad's truck.....sound just as good as the MMC5500s that I've heard.......I have to develop my ear a bit, I guess...

However, it still stands........muchos bassos from los floorstanderes.......and I like it.....

[steveinaz]

Consider for a moment that very few instruments dip below 40Hz, and most good bookshelves will dig that deep, maybe at a lower dB level, but still audible. Now think about all of the advantages of a bookshelf, improved midrange/highs, less resonance, lower price, less room needed, etc, etc.

Few things are as magical as a good pair of bookshelves. The key word there is good.

[steveinaz]

Here's one I'm thinking very seriously about purchasing...

ACI Sapphire:

[tryrrthg]

Bookshelf for sure!

A bookshelf costing the same as a floorstanding speaker will probably be better in every way. Less money into the cabinet and more into the parts that matter.

I've heard one "reasonbably" priced floorstanding speaker that I would trade my bookshelf speakers for. They were the ProAc D25's and they cost about $5000.

[MacLeod]

I live in an apartment so a sub is kind of out of the question right now. But I think I get it. A good set of bookshelves will still have decent bass response, albeit not ground shaking (which is fine with me) and generally sound better than an equally priced floorstanding?

The RTi6 is what Im looking at to buy (most I can realisticly spend). Those good enough?

Originally posted by audiobliss
like, the cheap Panasonic speakers that came in my dad's truck.....sound just as good as the MMC5500s that I've heard

Im gonna pretend you didnt say that! Blasphemer!!! :mad:

And those are either the MMC5250 or MMC6500.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Mac, PM me (again) -

I may know a solution for you... ;) -

No may, I HAVE

I know a speaker that can be had for 200-300 that can offer GREAT bass with reasonable power... and still do the mids and highs with clarity and detail :D

[Fulmer]

I agree with audiobliss. Regardless of the specs, a tower just sounds right to me. Sure a subwoofer can help round out the sound, but if the crossover must be set higher it can be more easily localized. I'll never go back to bookshelves for mains, unless they're packing at least a few 6.5" woofers. But at that point, I'd have to ask, why not just buy towers, and save myself from wasting time looking for stands.

[mrmusicman]

RT55ivs RTI 70

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

RT55i?

Hands down

[mrmusicman]

I recently bought stands for the 55'is and I think I'm placing them up front and moving the 70's to the rear.I definatley think they sound better than the 70's

[F1nut]

The first and most basic rule of speakers:

There is NO substitute for large radiating surfaces, period.

[audiobliss]

The first and most basic rule of speakers:

There is NO substitute for large radiating surfaces, period.

AMEN!!! lol......words to live by.......just like 'add bacon'......

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

So that would be the equivelant of a large fart on a seat (bookshelf)

Vs..

A large fart in a blow horn??

Got ya!

[Mjr7531]

Mac, you won't be disapointed with those RTi6s if you get them, I've watched movies with em', and they really can surprise you with what they do,
Matt

[tryrrthg]

Originally posted by F1nut
The first and most basic rule of speakers:

There is NO substitute for large radiating surfaces, period.
Unless those large radiating surfaces are the speaker cabinets! :D because GOOD floorstanding speakers aren't cheap to make!

[reeltrouble1]

Whichever way you decide to go your decision will at least be based upon an informed one. To me the fact that you thought about it speaks volumes over a blind buy based on something not really audio related.

SteveAz mentioned that most instruments do not have notes below 40hz, I agree, however, their are noted exceptions, but as he said, most do not. It is very hard for the human ear to hear low notes, about 64 times as hard as hearing normal conversation, because of this recording schools generally consider 40-80 hz as the usable bass section. As a side note it is also VERY DIFFUCULT to make a musical master recording mix using tones below the 40 hz sound really good, one article I saw from a noted Detroit area school stated "people dont have speakers that can play below 40hz so why bother with this difficult mixing. Well many of us do have speakers that can reach will below the 40 hz range and many recording masters will go beneath 40 hz, it is just a rule of thumb so to speak.

The piano keyboard extends will beneath the 40 hz level down to 27.5 hz, a five string bass guitar down to around 30 hz. Stevie Ray tuned his regular six string to Eb at 38.8 hz. Musicians/songwriters are aware of the diffuculty of hearing low bass, at times the low bass note will be played with the same bass note one ocatave above this creates an effect making the bass easier to hear, although upper bass note will dominate. As stated by F1, this is why you need a large radiating surface and plenty of clean power to dig down deep with musicality and not "mud" or "rumble".

All that said, and if you are still reading :rolleyes: the bookshelf offers its own benefits over the floorstander and generally can do an outstanding job with the midrange where nearly all vocals and melody lines are found, cymbal shimmers occur at arond 15 hz. way up the scale so to speak, others here have already noted this. One thing I noticed about bookshelf mid-line trends is the use of porting instead of acoustic suspension (sealed), this is done so that the smaller bookshelf can extend down lower and play a bit louder bass with increased efficiency, however, it takes away from the precision and accuracy of the speaker, the very thing they do so well. Our own beloved LSi have a 3db rolloff at 50 hz. So there you go, want a sub? This is too long and crossover slopes with subs and ports is another story someone else can tell. I like my stereo to be 2. nada.

Not exactly sure what all this means, just a few more "random thoughts" to consider.

RT1

Edit: I apologize for the length of this post and for stating some things many of you are well aware of, just trying to help the polkies.

[audiobliss]

haha; don't apologize for anything.......I think you're helping..

I like the '2.nada'....

[tryrrthg]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but it also depends on the size of your room. In my small room I get TOO MUCH bass from my "little" bookshelf speakers. They even shake the floor for all you bass heads! A small room is no place to be putting large radiating surfaces unless you've got some serious acoustic treatments to absorb the bass!

[audiobliss]

hmm....I've got my speakers in a small bedroom......with four 8" woofers......I like it......:D :D :D

:cool:

[tryrrthg]

Originally posted by audiobliss
hmm....I've got my speakers in a small bedroom......with four 8" woofers......I like it......:D :D :D

:cool:
No offense, but since you're a teenager and probably never heard a good high end system, you probably don't know what bass is SUPPOSED to sound like. Boom away young lad! ;)

[steveinaz]

Even to "bass-heads" (me included) bookshelves can be very addicting after you listen to them for awhile. Because most don't hit the lower depths, they tend to have a punchy bass, which most people like; it gives the music a little more slam than you're typical floorstander provides.

I agree with the comments about liking the big sound you get from towers, but this largely an "effect" not necessarily a true representation of the music. Kinda like a "loudness" button, it sounds really cool, but is it an accurate recreation of the recording? No.

[F1nut]

Originally posted by steveinaz
Even to "bass-heads" (me included) bookshelves can be very addicting after you listen to them for awhile. Because most don't hit the lower depths, they tend to have a punchy bass, which most people like; it gives the music a little more slam than you're typical floorstander provides.

I agree with the comments about liking the big sound you get from towers, but this largely an "effect" not necessarily a true representation of the music. Kinda like a "loudness" button, it sounds really cool, but is it an accurate recreation of the recording? No.

I have to disagree and say that you've got it all backwards. The sound of "live" music has a big sound and is most accurately reproduced by large speakers. The punchy mid bass and slam is not.

[audiobliss]

Originally posted by tryrrthg
No offense, but since you're a teenager and probably never heard a good high end system, you probably don't know what bass is SUPPOSED to sound like. Boom away young lad! ;)

Yep, yep, pick on the youngin's......lol

But seriously, I think I agree with you 100%. I'm sure I haven't heard a well set-up, high-end system. Even if I had, though, I have not yet become critical enough to have known it, lol.

Qualifier: I do not like the hideous, monstrous, evil bass oozing forth from every teenager's car at the stop light. I just like a lot of quality bass. :D


Orignally posted by steveinaz
but is it an accurate recreation of the recording? No.

Ya know, I've often wondered why you folks are so caught-up in exactly recreating what the guy who mastered the CD wanted you to hear. In my mind, if you think it sounds better.....then it's better!!! Yeah, do away with noise and distortion from wires, cables, amplification, and processing, but if some feature or setting or speaker or tone control makes it sound better......then it's better.......I think.....I dunno. I haven't really thought about it that much, but it does strike me as interesting that when people are asking, "What speakers?! What amp?! What pre?!" Y'all say, "Go out and demo them; if it sounds good then that is all that matters." Then someone asks, "What do I do with my tone controls?!" And everybody jumps in and says, "Don't mess with them! If you change them, it won't be true to the original recording!" instead of, "Hey, just play around with them and get 'em to where you think they sound best."

Anyhoo, maybe it's just 'cause I don't know nearly half of what y'all know.......

[Early B.]

Anyhoo, maybe it's just 'cause I don't know nearly half of what y'all know.......

Your previous post is absolutely correct. Some of us can sometimes be a bit snobbish about what we believe to be high quality sound, and try to convince others that what they're hearing is crap.

Don't be discouraged or intimidated by comments from those who have been into audio for longer than you've been alive. Your hearing is probably just as good as anyone else's, so if you like what you hear, that's all that matters, isn't it? Floorstanding or bookshelf or inwall-- who the hell cares? With decent speakers, either option is a great one.

[steveinaz]

Audiobliss-
you're right, the bottom line is what sounds good to you. But when someone is wanting opinions, you have to assume they're looking for an objective answer and one that speaks to fidelity of the original signal, especially with "comparison" questions. It's a fine line for sure.

Anytime you're comparing object A to object B, you have to have a level playing field; this assumes that the person asking the question doesn't want the original source changed. Example, had he said "which has more bass, bookshelves or floorstanders?" Then we have a whole different question....make sense? :)

Anywho--bottom line, it's your dime. Buy what pleases you.

[2+2]

I've often wondered why you folks are so caught-up in exactly recreating what the guy who mastered the CD wanted you to hear. In my mind, if you think it sounds better.....then it's better!!!

I have never owned them...but I believe that is the philosophy of Bose. Make it sound good with good mids, don't publish any test data, and market the hell out of it so that to a consumer's mind, they "sound good".

[audiobliss]

Ok, Early & Steve....maybe I see......at least it makes sense.......I think........:p

one day......

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I think we all can figure out what I recomended to Mac! :p

I, at one time had the RT35i, RTi70, and the RT5 all in this room. I liked the RT5 over all of them. The RTi70 was my least favorite (by a large margin) -

The RT35i was the jack off all trades, master of none. Loads of bass, detailed highs, kinda sloppy in da mids there, I must admit. Had a larger soundstage than the RT5.

The RT5 was REALLY smooth, transitioned well between the mids and highs (the first Polk speaker I've owned to do that successfully) - extremely detailed in the highs and had nice punchy lows, however they lacked in output. The RT5 had problems producing a large soundstage, that is the only upgrade I can tell between the RT5 and RT35i.. IMO

The RTi70, only thing better about it was the soundstage, much larger...

As for the bass, it was bass I didn't want - really really sloppy...

Point is, towers are not ALWAYS better.

However, I recomended Mac a tower...now the choice is his! To bad he wont go used, so many options...so many options...

hehe, anyways...

As for loud car stereos with alot of bass (audiobliss) - If I ever got into CA, regardless of how my home system is setup, I would make sure I had some LOUD subwoofers in my car, BASSSSS

[MacLeod]

From the info here I think bookshelves are probably the best way for me to go.

Here's my thunkin':

I live in an apartment so a lot of bass will only get me evicted! :D

Im not much into big bass anyway, even in CA. MY system is tuned for the bass to be only an extension of the mids and thats about it. And if I ever get a house I can always invest in a comonent subwoofer then.

Detail and accuracy is the most important thing to me. I listen to a lot of metal and "boomier" speakers muddy up the sound too much where crisper, more detailed speakers sound much mroe natural.

And finally, Im limited by budget and for the same money, I can get better speakers if I go bookshelf.

All this sound about right?

[audiobliss]

Yeah, I'd say you've got it about right. However, I'm thinkin' here......how can I say this?.....lemme try this.....




-------Here is how much bass bookshelves with
-------a subwoofer would have.



-------Here is the level of how much bass you
-------can have in your apartment.



-------Here is how much bass floorstanders
-------would have.



-------And here is how much bass bookshelves
-------by themselves would have.




Above, I'm trying to say that floorstanders have more bass than bookshelves (no, duh). Bookshelves with a sub have more bass than floorstanders and probably more than you can handle in an apartment. So, what you have to do is decide if bookshelves by themselves have enough bass to suit your taste. If they don't, I imagine that any floorstander you can afford right now won't have too much bass for an apartment.

So, it depends on your taste.

A quick note, here; maybe you should talk to RuSsMaN about the L90e or whatever it was. He ordered a pair of them and was really impressed with the sound. I haven't heard one, but I imagine that it would be clear and precise enough for you.

Just go listen and see what you think!!

[F1nut]

Originally posted by audiobliss
Bookshelves with a sub have more bass than floorstanders

That's just not true.

Let's take Polk's PSW505:
Overall Frequency Response 23Hz - 160Hz
Lower -3dB Limit 28Hz

SDA SRS 1.2TL:
Overall Frequency Response 10Hz - 26kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 27Hz

SDA SRS 2.3TL:
Overall Frequency Response 12Hz - 26kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 30Hz

Carver Platinum Amazing:
23Hz - 40kHz (-3dB from reference level)

Now, I know some subs go lower and I know some floorstanders go lower, but to say that bookshelves with a sub have more bass isn't true very often. Most subs do not go lower than a good tower, not to mention that towers have a smoother overall frequency response than bookshelves with a sub.

[2+2]

Wow!! Those SDA SRS go really low!! That's done through a passive radiator?!? Definately not hype....

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

-3db is 27hz...

My SVS hits down to 15hz! :D (in-room)

Aint much like a seperate subwoofer, IMO -

Some speakers can go without em, but that is a slim few.

I must admit, the SDA SRS 1.2TL had amazing amounts of bass, even in my Dad's room...

[dorokusai]

F1 - I'll bring over some 12 - 26 hz test tones and blow your drivers and PR right out of the baskets. hehe

[stereo55]

Speaking of the T90e's ; Ive been comparing a set against my RTi6's (mains) since around Thanksgiving .
I do use my modest setup strictly for HT purposes so YMMV with music .
I can say Iam having a very hard time deciding which speaker I prefer at the moment . Both speakers have their advantages , but I try and narrow things down and keep it short .

MAIN POINTS between the two

T90e :
1) more noticeable mids due to extra drivers (in tv and dvd movies)
2) more bass in certain ranges ( more noticeable in DTS movies)
3)wider sound-field , but less depth than RTi6
4) matches fairly well with lower RTi series ; but there is a noticeable difference (but slight) , and does do quite well in HT with RTi4s/CSi3
5) small footprint /no stands needed

RTi6 :
1) slightly cleaner all around sound
2) mids slightly lacking , but still good
3) good depth , slightly smaller sound-field
4) seamless sound in HT when matched with other newer RTi/CSi line .

I still have a good month+ before the T90e's have to go back/or keep them (according to Tweeter's holiday schedule till 1/30/05) , so Iam going to take advantage of the long period and continue to compare the two till then . I will update as needed , if any .

[audiobliss]

Orignally posted by dorokusai
F1 - I'll bring over some 12 - 26 hz test tones and blow your drivers and PR right out of the baskets.


thank you, thank you, doro....



You have to compares similar equipment, here. We're considering 'average' subs and bookshelves, given the budget. Seems to me that the towers you're pulling up for comparison are quite above average, while the PSW505, at best, is average (so I've heard on this forum). Since we are talking about a modest budget, let's compare some modest subs and some modest towers.

I'll start off with an example that compare my (price-wise) above-average floorstanders to a (price-wise) average sub. My Klipsch RF-35 towers, with a price tag of $1k/pair, have a lower -3db limit of 37Hz. HSU's STF-2 that costs $400 has a lower -3db limit of (somebody help me out here, I'm not sure if this is right....) 25Hz. Hmm...seems the sub is creating a lot more bass than the floorstanders.....

Anyhoo, I may still be wrong.....I just figured that when considering floorstanders and subs in his budget (meaning, 'average' equipment of similar performance), the sub would have a lot more bass.

[F1nut]

Bring it on!

[therealjeepguy]

I have a pair of RTi6's and I listen to them most of the time in stereo without the sub, which is a Polk PSW-404 and when engaged, blends seemlessly and beautifully with them. However, these are very satisfying to listen to on their own and while they may not shake the floor, they perform excellent. I'd prefer quality over quantity any day, although they give a good bit of both IMO. This topic really drew me in, cause as it happens to be, I was debating whether or not to trade these babies in for the RTi8's, but the more I listen to them, the more I like them. I think they would benefit from a better receiver. I have a Sony STR-DA4ES. Thinkin' about a NAD T-753 to replace it. Besides I love the asthetics of the bookshelf speakers. They look so good on their OMNI Mount stands that match them perfectly!

[dorokusai]

What's the 4ES not doing for you?

[LuSh]

I think somewhere along the line people forgot stands. If your going to spend any coin on bookshelve speakers then buy stands. The recommended LSi9 stands are $300. You add that to the price of the speakers then people start to consider floorstanders.

If it was possible to create the "perfect" speaker. It would be no bigger then a marble and radiate sound all around. With a true response of 30khz - 20hz. That's every speaker designers dream. Size is a very hard issue to overcome because of timing errors when dealing with multiple drivers and cabinet resonance. Because it is hard to build speakers in a small compact design that can deliver that kinda response (And still be driven with affordable electronics), designers are forced to take another approach. Some don't and design almost full range bookshelve speakers like Vince Bruzzese from Totem. The Mani II's are one of handfull of bookshelve speakers that offer the dynamics of a much larger speaker, the problem is you need nearly $6,000 worth of solid state amplification to drive them because of their 85ish db sensitivity.

Bookshelve speakers will image better and have a more tightly knit package. You can throw out most of the response numbers people have given you. If gave an LSi15 a real 25hz frequency it would do one of two things, blow the driver or the port overhang would be so bloated you'd barely make out the note.

All things being equal I'd consider a bookshelve design over a floorstander if prices were within reach of each other. If I had the room I'd go for a true full range floorstanding speaker. It is however unfortunte that most of the floorstanding speakes are still out of my reach, even used.

[dorokusai]

Originally posted by LuSh
I think somewhere along the line people forgot stands.

I've never read a owners manual that didn't suggest something other than the floor or closet.

[LuSh]

They don't suggest using older speakers as stands either, althought I've seen people do it...

[dorokusai]

Originally posted by LuSh
They don't suggest using older speakers as stands either, althought I've seen people do it...

Using another speaker as a stand, is insulting to both speakers.

[WJE]

Originally posted by dorokusai
What's the 4ES not doing for you?
I was going to ask a similiar question. I wish I still had my 4ES. Way, way better than the new Sony ES gear that's out at the moment.

[F1nut]

Originally posted by audiobliss


You have to compares similar equipment, here........

I'll start off with an example that compare my (price-wise) above-average floorstanders to a (price-wise) average sub. My Klipsch RF-35 towers, with a price tag of $1k/pair, have a lower -3db limit of 37Hz. HSU's STF-2 that costs $400 has a lower -3db limit of (somebody help me out here, I'm not sure if this is right....) 25Hz. Hmm...seems the sub is creating a lot more bass than the floorstanders.....



My 2.3TL's cost me 1k, the Plat's were $800.00, so we're in the same range, price wise. I think we're getting a little nit picky here because if someone says they can tell the difference between 25Hz and 27Hz I'll tell them they are a liar. In fact, most music doesn't drop below 40Hz, maybe 30Hz at the most. Anything below 20Hz can't be heard, only felt. I also get the feeling that some of you are thinking along the lines of HT applications and not music. I know Doro doesn't use a sub with his 2 channel set up and gets plenty of musical bass from his Polk's. That brings up another point, musicality. It doesn't matter how low the bass gets if it's not musical and from my experience it's a rare sub that gets that right.

[F1nut]

MacLeod,

I see that you've indicated a preference for bookshelf speakers, so I'd like to suggest you take a look at the NHT SB-3.

http://www.nhthifi.com/2004/products/product_detail.asp?ProductLineID=2&ProductID=13

They aren't very efficient (86dB), but are 8 ohm loads, so any receiver can drive them, just not to loud levels. They are a sealed design, no ports, so the bass is tight.

[dorokusai]

I agree, I don't use a sub and am very happy in the 2CH arena, just like you...but to equate the subwoofer output to the frequency response of an SDA is a little odd.

The design and actual output are two totally different animals.

The day any SDA drops a pressure wave at 20hz, like a subwoofer can, will be the day. Never going to happen. Hardcore subwoofers have an extremely hard time dropping <15hz....at reference volume...a 1.2TL would be about as powerful as a chick farting.

A frequency response is just that, what it is capable of.....not the actual response curve.

SDA's can have tight and immediate impact in the lower regions, it's fantastic, but the total lower response is far from the subwoofer class.

I mean a real subwoofer, not a Polk subwoofer.

[Loud & Clear]

Originally posted by dorokusai
Hardcore subwoofers have an extremely hard time dropping <15hz....at reference volume...a 1.2TL would be about as powerful as a chick farting.

You know, I used to date a very attractive young lady. Very cute and demure. I'll tell you though, it wasn't too terribly long into our romance that she became comfortable enough to put me into the Pants Waffling Club, if you know what I'm saying.

Chicks can absolutely blast a killer fart, I know this to be true. And unlike guys who will do it for effect and laugh, carry on and such, she would do it and just continue on like nothing had happened ... just keep making soup or switch channels on the television.

I got a nice chuckle from the metaphor in your post, and perhaps I should have left it at that, but I thought it necessary to set the record straight lest anyone have any doubts.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Jesse,
You paid that USED - they didn't cost that new...

And not to mention if the 2.3tl was available NOW it would be like what? 7 grand a pair new? lol

I dont have any clue about the Carvers though....

L&C,
that was dang funny...lol

[reeltrouble1]

The 20 hz wave is what? 56 ft long or so, when you get below 80 hz which is the bottom two octaves. You need diaphrams in the 12" or bigger range to make these sound waves effectively, never seen a bookshelf with a cabinet that big, maybe they do exsist. You need lots of power to try and control the mass of the diaphram compared to the movement in makes. Kind of like the power needed to open a heavy steel door compared to a window shutter, very hard to be precise with opening that heavy door a certain distance. Using a small cone to produce bass is akin to digging a grave by hand, you can do it but not very efficiently, use a big powered shovel and you are done in a snap but difficult to effectively move the shovel in precise increments.

I want my musical bass woofer in the same cabinet with the other drivers, crossover's matched and tuned by the maufacturer for a smooth response. A response down to 35 hz makes me pretty happy, to 27 hz even better since this covers the full keyboard. Ok so I need 1.2's or better. Given only one choice I take the compromises of the floorstander, I get excellent placement of instruments within the three-dimensional soundfield along with deep powerful bass.

[jdhdiggs]

Sorry reel, while I agree with the speaker choice, how you got there was a bit wrong with the analogy:

SPL = displacement and most speakers are the most linear close to their resting position. Therefore, a large, properly motored large speaker will be more accurate since it would not have to move as far or as fast to produce the same SPL at a particular Hz.

Using your example: If the shutter weighs 5lbs and you can only lift 5, your not going to be very accurate or fast. A steel door weighing 200lbs and you can move 1000lbs, you will be very accurate and fast. It's not just size and weight but also motor strength as well as the linearity of the motor.

Now what about tweets and mid woofs? That's a rigidness and wave propigation issue not present in the last three octaves. Also, cost/size is a major factor.

As for the SDA and other speaker ratings below 30Hz, they dont say how loud the speaker is going at that volume. Granted I have the tiny SDA's but I ran a test with the bass limiter on the reciever. The SDA 1B against the SVS... no contest. The SDA's got to -30db on the scale before they started to look like they might clip. At 0, the SVS wasn't even breaking a sweat. This wasn't a super low test signal either, ~45 Hz or so. Oh, and the SDA's had 350W/channel so the had plenty of power. They are different beasts (floorstanders vs subs)


One day I will integrate the SDA's and the SVS and see how it works, just gotta get a dang house.

[reeltrouble1]

Hi Jd,

Hehehe thanks for your insight cuz we are getting to the crux, no I am correct in my analogy's generalities, you are discounting the mass to air movement ratio of the radiating surface in your response, however, you have nailed the power issue requirement precisely and the bass speaker will be more accurate than a mid in reproducing these low freq. waves that is why you need it, however, the mid and tweet are more accurate in producing their assigned wavelenghts than the bass since they have less surface area to move. I never said how much power was available to open the shutter you did. We may very well be saying the same thing in the end from different perspectives. Its just that given a power source it is easier to wave a piece of paper back and forth than it is a steel door.

RT1

[dorokusai]

The point is, and I agree with JD, is that the SDA while great, cannot reproduce the low end like a subwoofer is able....that's all I'm saying. The SDA is probably 10-12db down at the very low end, and that's useless.

The bass reproduced by an SDA can be hard-on inspiring, but it isn't a subwoofer and vice versa.

It's a moot argument. Do we really have to get specific? Steel door....paper....dilithium crystals....harmonically balanced poppycock....athlete's foot....sheesh

[jdhdiggs]

42!

[reeltrouble1]

both of you need to go back to work, and yes the SVS can defintely go lower than the SDA.

Doro i am sorry you have a rash on your foot.

[dorokusai]

I never said it was on my foot......

[MacLeod]

$300 for stands? :eek:

If I were poopin' hundred dollar bills I wouldnt pay $300 for stands.

The stands Im using for my surround speakers right now were $30 at Radio Shack for the pair.

Jesus P. God! Why would a stand need to cost $300??? :confused:

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Because people will pay for it, atleast - thats how I see it..

something about no vibrations or something or another

[MacLeod]

Oh please! Im quite guilty of buying shit I dont need jsut cause it might make a difference but I will never conced that a $300 set of stands will sound any better than my $30 set from Radio Shack.

[2+2]

Expensive stands are often much heavier and fillable with buckshot to weigh it down more. Sonic improvements aside, they reduce the likelihood of tipping.....especially if you have children in the house.

[MacLeod]

Oh I agree that not all stands are created equally but $300?! Screw buckshot, you could buy a couple shotguns with that! ;)

[scottnbnj]

experiment with height with your gear in your room before buying expensive stands.

)

[MacLeod]

Well wont most good stands be height adjustable?

[okiepolkie]

Just build your own stands. Oak pillars filled with sand and mahogany bases. Originally built for my RT5's, but now hold my LSi7's. They are very sturdy, but I'll still come up with somewhere else to put them when the little one leans to walk.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

4 3" PVC pipes will hold a large amount of weight dumped in it...

[dorokusai]

I fill my underwear with lead shot, it really improves the bass response of my farts.

[scottnbnj]

yeah,.. well that's not bad for folks that can afford to buy new underwear for each listening session.

)

[scottnbnj]

Originally posted by MacLeod
Well wont most good stands be height adjustable?

hmmmm,.. *good* mains' stands that are height adjustable. now there's an idea that might work.

i'm gonna give this some thought.

)

[dorokusai]

On a serious note, I shot load everything.

I have always found improvements in isolation and/or mass loading of components and accesories.

[LuSh]

Before you all go haywire over stands, try it. If you've never tried it, then don't fault somebody for spending their dough on it. The differences between Radio shack $30 jobbies and the Sanus Foundation stands would be huge.

Its more about the ability of the stand to isolate the speaker so the speaker doesn't waste energy sending sound down the spine of the stand. Bass response and imaging are two critical areas which will improve with proper stands.

Price doesn't always dictate the stands value. If you can DIY and know how to make a proper design then you can save some bread. The Sanus foundation stands are "budget" minded...I could show you stands costing upwards of $1k. But that's not the point, the point is to make sure you maximize the speakers performance. $30 Radio Shack speakers aren't helping much. At least in a 2 channel setup.

[MacLeod]

Originally posted by LuSh
Before you all go haywire over stands, try it. If you've never tried it, then don't fault somebody for spending their dough on it.


Relax.

Nobody is going haywire.

Nobody is faulting anybody. If you want to spend $1000 on speaker stands, then good on ya mate. Im just not ever gonna do it.

[Mjr7531]

They do :p
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4163_38069_tab=B,00.html?compName=PNA_Prod uctDetailComponent
I couldn't find their 12" model, theres the next best thing, they used to sell the 12" woofer "bookshelves" at CC, but discontinued it.
Originally posted by reeltrouble1
The 20 hz wave is what? 56 ft long or so, when you get below 80 hz which is the bottom two octaves. You need diaphrams in the 12" or bigger range to make these sound waves effectively, never seen a bookshelf with a cabinet that big, maybe they do exsist.

[F1nut]

.....and the best it can muster is 50Hz??? Oh wait, that's right it's a Pioneer.

[tryrrthg]

If you don't want to spend high dollar on stands but still want something solid, try building some DIY stands. I built some based on this design (http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/stubby_e.html) but I altered it a bit to suit my needs. My stands are VERY stable and weigh about 50-60 pounds when they're filled with sand. I really like the way the turned out, and they only cost me about $75 or so. I might upgrade to a "better" stand at some point but not until all my components are squared away.

Construction Pics (http://www.angelfire.com/alt/tryrrthg/DIY/DIYstands.html)

Pictures:

[reeltrouble1]

Originally posted by F1nut
.....and the best it can muster is 50Hz??? Oh wait, that's right it's a Pioneer.

That is one Pioneer that should stay buried on the plains, might make an ok doorstop if I need my bowling ball.

[reeltrouble1]

Originally posted by MacLeod


Nobody is faulting anybody. If you want to spend $1000 on speaker stands, then good on ya mate. Im just not ever gonna do it.

Just a few of my A/V nevers:

I will never pay to watch TV--wrong
I will never pay thousands for a TV--wrong
I will never pay thousands for an amp--wrong
I will never buy more speakers than I can use--wrong
I will never pay to listen to radio broadcasts--wrong
I will NEVER suscribe to Stereophile--wrong
I will never drive 1000 miles to buy speakers--wrong
I will never have more speakers than systems--wrong

The list is nearly endless, watch out Mac

RT1

[F1nut]

Ted.....telling it like it is! :D

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by reeltrouble1

I will never buy more speakers than I can use--wrong
I will never have more speakers than systems--wrong


Thankfully, these are the only two I've fallen for as of yet. (Yes, I don't get cable!)

[reeltrouble1]

JD,

Glad to hear someone has held out on the TV thing!! As for the others, well you still have time!!!:D

RT1

[WJE]

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Just a few of my A/V nevers:

I will never pay to watch TV--wrong
I will never pay thousands for a TV--wrong
I will never pay thousands for an amp--wrong
I will never buy more speakers than I can use--wrong
I will never pay to listen to radio broadcasts--wrong
I will NEVER suscribe to Stereophile--wrong
I will never drive 1000 miles to buy speakers--wrong
I will never have more speakers than systems--wrong

The list is nearly endless, watch out Mac

RT1
I will never pay for toilet paper - Wrong!! :D :D :D

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
JD,

Glad to hear someone has held out on the TV thing!! As for the others, well you still have time!!!:D

RT1

Kinda fun story:got brought to one of those free steak dinner to listen to a financial planner. After his speal, I said no, he was too expensive. So then he tried to rationalize it:

What do you spend monthly on TV? $0
What do you spend monthly on Internet? $0
So must spend a lot of time reading? Yes
What do you spend on magazine subscriptions? $0
What do you spend on books? Libraries right down the road...
WHAT DO YOU DO THEN? Have friends...

He left me alone after that response. Thank God he didn't aks me:

How much do you spend on DVD's?
On CD's?
On HT equipment?
On 2-channel equipment?

I woulda been screwed then... :D

[MacLeod]

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Just a few of my A/V nevers:

I will never pay to watch TV--wrong
I will never pay thousands for a TV--wrong
I will never pay thousands for an amp--wrong
I will never buy more speakers than I can use--wrong
I will never pay to listen to radio broadcasts--wrong
I will NEVER suscribe to Stereophile--wrong
I will never drive 1000 miles to buy speakers--wrong
I will never have more speakers than systems--wrong

The list is nearly endless, watch out Mac

RT1

Ya know, since you put it like that I think youre right! :p

[audiobliss]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Kinda fun story:got brought to one of those free steak dinner to listen to a financial planner. After his speal, I said no, he was too expensive. So then he tried to rationalize it:

What do you spend monthly on TV? $0
What do you spend monthly on Internet? $0
So must spend a lot of time reading? Yes
What do you spend on magazine subscriptions? $0
What do you spend on books? Libraries right down the road...
WHAT DO YOU DO THEN? Have friends...

He left me alone after that response. Thank God he didn't aks me:

How much do you spend on DVD's?
On CD's?
On HT equipment?
On 2-channel equipment?

I woulda been screwed then... :D

ROFL.....that's awesome....

good post, reeltrouble1....