I can't decide... Dual Outlaws or SVS PB12-plus/2

[Polkitup2]

Okay, I've been thinking about this for way too long. My HT/2CH room is 20x30x8. SVS support recommends the PB12-Plus/2. That's cool but, because of its size it would have to sit in the back of my HT room instead of up front where the TV and electronics are. That doesn't concern me too much, but because of the room layout, the only way I could connect the sub would be using in-wall speaker wire that I put in the wall when I built the basement. This wire is from Home Depot and is 14 AWG sound and security wire. I could solder some RCA ends on this but am concerned that this wire would not be sufficient to support the SVS sub. Thoughts?

On the other hand I do have space on the left and right side of my HT setup to have dual Outlaw Audio Lfm-1s. I could connect these using anything I wanted since my HT reciever is close buy.

So what do you think, dual Outlaws using quality connects or an SVS pb12-plus/2 through a questionable connect?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

The Outlaw is the equivelant of the SVS PB12 ISD ( or w/e its model number is ) - so I am assuming dual Outlaws would be a PB2 ISD...

Now a PB2 + would rock its world, IMO...

Of course, i could be wrong... :)

[Polkitup2]

Sid,

That's what I'm thinking. The SVS goes loowwwwwww.. Down to 16 Hz. The Outlaw goes down to about 23 Hz. But I am concerned about the ability of the 14 AWG speaker wire to drive the SVS monster to its full capability. On the plus side, I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit right where the SVS would sit.

[Frank Z]

Sunfire Truesub EQ

[Polkitup2]

Unfortunately when it comes to bass, size does matter.

[PolkThug]

If you want to be able to feel the deep bass that's in movies like i, Robot, the SVS is an easy choice.

Regards,
PolkThug

[Frank Z]

Originally posted by Polkitup2
Unfortunately when it comes to bass, size does matter.
Sorry, but size isn't nearly as important as you think. What matters is faithful bass reproduction, an amp that can drive the sub without distortion, deep enough extension to make you feel the low frequencies, not just hear them. Size means nothing, it's strictly a preference.

[Polkitup2]

Good insight. I must admit I am new to the sub market and am basing my opinion on internet reviews (and Marketing) rather than actual listening. I am certainly in the camp that if I can get good bass from from a smaller enclosure that's where I want to be. I was intially interested in the Sunfire true subs but it seems like I kept running across reviews that said "good bass for a sub that size"

Has anybody had the opportunity to compare the Sunfire true subs to SVS?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Sunfire vs SVS...

A lil cube vs. a monster.

A 10" (?) vs. Dual 12s?

Almost half the power in a large enclosure with larger drivers, tuned lower...

Unless you CANT fit the SVS in YOUR room...

I would NOT get the Sunfire. I am sure it is a GREAT subwoofer, but those lil cube subs only go soooooo far!

IMO...

Kinda like those 80hz crossed surrounds....Cant replace full range, and you cant replace a big box, sold drivers with a big amp.

But hey, thats my opinion :)

[Frank Z]

Sid,
Have you ever even heard a Sunfire sub? I'll put my tiny assed sub up against your pickel barrel any time!

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

No, I can't say I have...

Have you ever heard SVS? eh eh?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

All I gotta say is...

Show me some cube that cost 400 dollars that hits below 20hz...heck, 25hz - Strong, not that pety -30-40db BS...

PB10 anyone?

[Frank Z]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
No, I can't say I have...

Have you ever heard SVS? eh eh?
Sid,
No, but I don't beat my gums about them either. I never said anything about SVS. You're starting to sound like a broken record.

There are a lot of SVS owners that swear by 'em and that's fine, but I seriously doubt that many have compared their SVS to anything else either. It's safe to say that SVS owners base their purchase on reviews and internet chatter, and not on actual A/B comparisons. Once they get 'em they rant and rave, but that's not the same as listening to an SVS and Brand X,Y, or Z and deciding which sounds better. Digging deep and blending well with a complete system are two totally different matters.

Price is always a consideration, but it should never ever be the major selling point. To buy something based on price alone is foolish. Better gear is generally going to cost more money. If you want it bad enough you just have to save a little longer.

I'm not knocking SVS, but sometimes you people are like a cult. There's more to music than bass.

Get your audition on and and you might find a sub that works for you on many levels. If that means SVS, fine, but you just might end up with a REL, Klipsch, Polk, or heaven forbid an 11" cube that looks as good as it sounds.

If an SVS sub does itfor ya, goody. But don't presume to tell anyone that the SVS is the be all end all when it comes to subs. Frankly you haven't been around the block enough times to make those kind of statements. No one has.

[jmierzur]

Originally posted by Frank Z
Sid,
Have you ever even heard a Sunfire sub? I'll put my tiny assed sub up against your pickel barrel any time!

I have heard both. My pickel barrel (SVS PCU) sounds better by a big margin. Just my opinion.

Edit:

When I did get mine delivered, the first thing I did was to re-listen to the local offerings once again. I did this to see if I would be keeping the units or if they would be sent packing.

IMO, most of the local offering do not sound or perfrom as good. The only other sub that I would purchase would be the Velodyne DD series. The problem is that the DD-10 costs (CDN) as much as my two PCU's. There is now new Paradigm and other Velodyn subs that I have not listened to, so I do not have an opinion on them. Would have liked to listen to a REL or higher end M&K, but they are not available locally.

Not being part of the cult as previously mentioned, I am looking for the best sound I can afford. I can say the PCU is a real bargin for the performance you get.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

The True Sub EQ costs...

$2195.00

And with this subwoofer...

You a 10" woofer, a 2,700 watt amp.... in a 11x11x11" cube...

The Sunfire moves 2.35" P-T-P

The SVS PC Ultra costs 1,150 + shipping...

It has a 12" woofer, that moves around 3" P-T-P...

The SVS PB 2/12 Ultra Cost 2,000 + Shipping with a pebble black finish.

This SVS features two of the woofers...
With a 1,100 watt amp in a gigantic enclosure tuneable from 25-16hz...

Now, I'm not rocket scientist, and you arn't either. And, I know we are not supposed to go by specs when it comes to speakers.

But just from specs alone, we can tell that if a woofer with higher excursion, more cone, larger enclosure, that can be tuned lower, with a large amp...it going to walk all over a subwoofer with one 10" in a small enclosure.....

In output and extention. Maybe musical accuracy is on the Sunfires side...

I am sure it is a great subwoofer, and I am sure for its size, it offers great bass. I am not saying it sucks by any means. But a subwoofer moves air, and just by driver specs, the SVS is gonna move more of it...

And I am also not saying SVS isn't accurate, that 580 dollar woofer SVS uses is incredibly accurate...

I havn't heard Sunfire. But I've heard SVS, and I've seen what they do. If you have room for them, you won't be unsatisfied.

HSU or SVS, cant go wrong with either for the money...

I'm sure your subwoofer can beat my subwoofer...

but then again, it cost 4 times the amount...

Both are good subwoofers, but I prefer to get something that offers the most for the $$$, if you want a killer subwoofer that is small...

Sunfire, Velodyne, Definitive Tech Supercubes... the list goes on...

[Frank Z]

From Sunfire's site:
2700-watt amp featuring patented Tracking Downconverter power supply
Frequency response: 16 Hz to 100 Hz (+0, -3 dB)
Measurement microphone and automatic internal contour compensation keeps it that way
Greater than 116 dB peak SPL with room gain
Input coupling is optical and accepts balanced, standard and high-level inputs
Bore 10 inches - stroke 2.35 inches Crossover points variable from 30 Hz to 100 Hz (over 360 cubic inches total air volume displacement)
Input level (volume) control
Phase continuously adjustable 0° to 180°
Passive 70 Hz 6 dB per octave hi-pass line level output for satellite loudspeakers
Dimensions: 13" by 13" by 13"
Two-year warranty

Actually the MSRP is closer to $1600

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

yes...

Let me see here...

2.35" P-T-P excursion...

10" Woofer...

SVS =

3" P-T-P excursion
12" Woofer...

Longer stroke...

bigger cone...

= More air movement...

[gregure]

Okay, regarding the comment that SVS isn't the end all be all, fine I can live with that. I'm sure that there are plenty of decent subs out there that can match w/ people's systems just fine. That said, I still think that SVS is making the best subs for the money. I've had three subs, the first two were not that great, but they did fine for my short entry level period. I was shopping for a good sub that wasn't too much money that would go strong to 20Hz for movies. I went to a high end dealer in town, who recommended a 10" Earthquake sub. This is similar to Sunfire in that it is small, yet supposedly goes low. They played me a demo of Two Towers and it sounded pretty good, but not as thrilling as it should for its specs. I knew what the SVS sounded like because I had a friend who got one before I did. Granted, I did not play them in the same room, but the Earthquake was just not doing it for me in the lower range.

For $430 the PB 10 ISD cannot be beat for bass performance.
I also had a long conversation w/ these guys about Sunfire, and everyone who worked in this place agreed it sounded decent at lower extension, but around the 50-100Hz range, the bass was full of distortion and lacked definition.

Additionally, they all agreed HSU was a very good sub, and stated that since HSU is making the OUTLAW sub, why not just buy HSU for a bit more money and a bit more extension?

My recommendation: Get the SVS. It will not disappoint, and you will never equivocate or look back. Screw Sunfire and their tiny cubes. It's a false veneer. SVS sounds great real low, and upward, at a flat response. Make it work!!!

And as for the comment that bass isn't everything, show me a system that isn't 10 times as thrilling with excellent, low bass, and I'll maybe consider your argument. All music sounds better with great bass, and movies isn't even a question. Even old farts that never cared about bass are amazed when I show them my system. They never knew what they were missing.

Good luck in your search. To answer your initial question--no 14 awg wire would not do justice to a SVS. You really need a nice sub coax from Bettercables or Audioquest, or something akin to that.

Have fun!!!

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I disagree with the wire comment...

I would be willing to bet that you couldnt tell a bit of different between speaker wire and a LFE cable, infact you might even find the speaker wire louder...

I've used speaker wire 15 awg and a LFE cable with a y splitter, I prefer the speaker wire method, but my amp cant keep up with it......

[sowen010599]

Sunfire...... hmmmm

To me, and maybe I am alone in this, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

"I" think they sound very mechanical. Almost artificial if you will. Sure the bass is there, and it has a lot of presence, but you can almost hear each stroke of the driver. It's just, for lack of a better word, not quite right.

[Mjr7531]

To throw a little humor in...
Anything is upgrade from my woofer, I have learned... Cobwebs developing in the ports are a bad thing. (MTX SW2)
I'd take either :D

[Polkitup2]

I'm thinking the SVS might be bigger than a pickle barrel! And from the SVS site description of the PB12-plus/2...

"This is not some boomy, distortion-laden “micro-sub” made to hide under Grandma’s lace doily"

That comment reminds me of a mistake I made five years ago when I bought the Bose accoutimass 15 system. I bought this system to install in my house that was being built. At the time in my exsting house I had a Cerwin Vega Sensurround setup. The frame in couch would vibrate like I was sitting on a palm sander. I loved that system.

So I move into the new house, install the Bose and wondered where the hell my sound went to. For a long time I blamed the new house configuration as having poor sound quality. Back then as an uneducated consumer, it didn't even cross my mind that maybe the Bose system was lacking. I mean come on, the Bose came straight from heaven to my living room. Right?

Anyways, now I know better and am leary things stuffed into small packages. Although I did just order a Sony DSC-T1 digital camera that's about the size of a credit card. We'll see what the picture quality is like with that thing.

[Toxis]

I have yet to hear any SVS subs so I will not say a single thing about them. But I sell Sunfire subs all day long and personally, I have only heard one sub sound better and that's the Martin Logan's (triple 8" subs, can't think of model). The Sunfire True EQ is amazing. The Solitaire 12 has a little cleaner response for music but for a mixture of music and movies, the True EQ is a STEAL at the price. Nothing has blended better with speakers except that one ML sub. And THAT is why I'll own a Sunfire. Maybe if someone I know gets an SVS for me to hear, and not the entry level, I might consider it...

[jdhdiggs]

Toxis, you owe it to yourself to go check one out. I liked the Sunfire's for a long time and did an in home demo against the PB12+2 and it wasn't a contest.

Music, movies, and everything els you can think of came out better on the SVS. When the SVS is half the price, well that's just gravy.

That said, if you have a small room and need an unobtrusive sub, go with the Rocket UFW-10 for less monet or the Sunfire for the name and features. As for the bigger boys, if you can't buy a B4 or the PB12Ultra2 with wood, then I believe HSU's to be a superior sub if aesthetics are a concern.

You need to look at what you will be using it for and what are the real requirements (Yelling factor).

As for SVS size, in a room it takes up a ton of space, but no one sees it since it is too large... If that makes any sense...

[EricH]

Frank, I am perplexed at your statemets:

"I'm not knocking SVS, but sometimes you people are like a cult."

From the mouth of someone who has admittedly never even heard an SVS sub.

"There's more to music than bass."

Is this what you say when listening to your sub?


When owners of a particular brand are very passionate about their purchase, AND there are a lot of them, it's usually a good idea to do some research as to why. Afterward, you can determine whether THEY are a cult, or YOU are uninformed.

[Dr. Spec]

That doesn't concern me too much, but because of the room layout, the only way I could connect the sub would be using in-wall speaker wire that I put in the wall when I built the basement. This wire is from Home Depot and is 14 AWG sound and security wire. I could solder some RCA ends on this but am concerned that this wire would not be sufficient to support the SVS sub. Thoughts?

This little bugger looks pretty interesting.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/buttkicker-rf-link-12-2004.html

[fireshoes]

I think my SVS is taller but skinnier than a pickle barrel! I will finally get a chance to fire it up later this week when my amp gets here.

I really don't think Frank meant to be rip on SVS either. If placement is difficult, a Sunfire surely has its strong points. I had heard a Sunfire several years ago, back when I was just an audio newb (was??:D). I thought it was pretty nice.

[Frank Z]

Frank, I am perplexed at your statements:
"I'm not knocking SVS, but sometimes you people are like a cult."

From the mouth of someone who has admittedly never even heard an SVS sub.


Nope I've never heard one and am not knocking it either. I'm just a little tired of SVS owners (not all of them) running their collective yaps about how great the SVS is and nothing else compares.

"There's more to music than bass."
Is this what you say when listening to your sub?
I don't use a sub for 2 channel listening, I don't need it, and I have my system calibrated for the proper amount of bass when used for multi-channel music and movies.

When owners of a particular brand are very passionate about their purchase, AND there are a lot of them, it's usually a good idea to do some research as to why. Afterward, you can determine whether THEY are a cult, or YOU are uninformed.
I've been around the block a few times and I have read more than enough about the SVS product line. I don't care for the appearance, pickle barrel or otherwise. :) It may be the right product for some, but that doesn't mean it's for everyone.

I prefer to hear what I feel is the content that the artist and recording engineer intended for me to hear. Bass and Treble controls are always bypassed. Not every recording needs to be driven into my chest to sound good. Clear, deep, undistorted bass is all I need and I get plenty with my sub. I've spent plenty of time listening to much larger and more expensive subs and although some of them were very impressive, they weren't enough to make me want to get rid of my sub. Sunfire may not be for everyone, and neither is SVS. Do I think my sub outperforms SVS, nope. Do I feel threatened by an SVS sub, nope. Do I think that you can get fantastic bass response from something other than SVS, you bet. You can get it from just about any manufacturer, it all depends on what you're after.

SVS maybe your cup of tea, but it ain't the whole pot.

[EricH]

We all have opinions, but an uninformed opinion is almost as worthless as no opinion at all. However, this is only my opinion.

;-o

[Frank Z]

Uninformed! Just because I haven't heard one? Re-Read my post, show me where I'm "Uninformed"! show me where I've slammed SVS!:mad:

[EricH]

Frank,

While I've never said that you have slammed SVS subwoofers, you have compared it's owners to a cult. You have also stated that you have never heard an SVS subwoofer. I suppose happy SVS owners would seem like a cult to you. Huge amounts of quality, deep, bass at reasonable prices can make a person like that.

You have stated reasons justifying your Sunfire purchase. Good for you. I'm glad that you are happy with your sub. For what we spend on this hobby, we should all be happy with our purchases.

[PolkThug]

My SVS's are calling me right now to watch the i, Robot intro again.......

[Polkitup2]

Here let me fan the flames. It looks like SVS realizes the market for a small good sounding sub. From their web site news section...

"After that? Say later in the 2nd quarter of 2005? What customers have been begging for, and competitors dreading, for over 4 years now: a small subwoofer that deserves to wear the SVS logo. Probably starting with an entry level salvo, and fleshing out the new line later in the year. Expect a small sub that doesn't act like one. Most "micro-subs" are over-priced, under-performers dominated by a few brands putting more hype than substance going into the product. SVS changed the landscape of large subwoofers. We set expensive brands back on their heels. Now we're about to do the same with products that are heard (and felt) not seen. If you wanted an SVS and hesitated due to their generally considerable size, well your days of paying too much, for too little, are going to be relieved. The train is rolling. This will be the next big thing from SVS. Only small."

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Well for one thing...

The SVS PB10...

is NOT small, maybe compared to other SVS box subwoofers. But if you put it beside something like that Sunfire, it is still a freakin monster...

If you can afford the bigger and badder, get em...

[jmierzur]

Originally posted by Frank Z
Nope I've never heard one and am not knocking it either. I'm just a little tired of SVS owners (not all of them) running their collective yaps about how great the SVS is and nothing else compares.


Frank, I appreciate your opinion on your Sunfire sub. I'm glad that this works for you. Maybe the original thread starter will look at the sub and determine this unit best suits their needs.

Your choice of words regarding SVS posters was poor at best. I can think of several philosophies (three-letter acronym for a Polk speaker technology, a specific amp class; just to name a few) on the forum that border on this mind-set. I have experience with both and disagree with these opinions. I read posts and acquire their experiences. It may eventually lead me to re-evaluate my own opinion in the future. Doesn’t mean they or I are right or wrong. Just different experiences and tastes. If I am tired of the subject, I just ignore the thread/post.

Happy posting and listening.

[jmierzur]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Well for one thing...

The SVS PB10...

is NOT small, maybe compared to other SVS box subwoofers. But if you put it beside something like that Sunfire, it is still a freakin monster...

If you can afford the bigger and badder, get em...

Please do me a favor and listen to the Sunfire, in addition to comparing 'paper' specifications and physical size. When you have heard the unit in question, report back with what you liked best.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Oh, I never said it was a bad subwoofer. But I think it is kind of obvious that if you were to purchase a similar priced SVS it would be pretty much out-muscled...

If I ever hear one, i will definetely let yall know...

I wanna hear REL and Sunfire...

I need to hear the Def Tech Supercubes too...

I have heard the Velo DD series....FINE subwoofers there for their size...

[faster100]

Heres my theory, If you "love' what you have, be it sunfire or svs, or whom ever makes the sub.. why try other subs. brands, sizes and what not... Frank loves the Sunfire, it works for him.. good enough for me, I love my SVS, I liked my polk subs.. but after i heard the 2 svs's ive owned i will not buy another sub. It works and i cannot see another sub doing anything more for my HT, i'm that satisfied.. as Frank seems to be with his sunfire.. No sub can be to much bass if its calibrated correctly... if it is then turn it down and blend by ear, enough said.. If size is a concern and price isnt, get a micro sub.. if cost to performance ratio is important and size doesnt matter, consider SVS or other larger sub offerings.. and most of all have fun and like what you have purchased for god sakes..

[dkg999]

I'm with Faster100 on this! We all hear differently and just the way everyone has their favorite speaker that sounds good to them, the same just about has to apply to sub-woofers also?

[jmierzur]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Oh, I never said it was a bad subwoofer. But I think it is kind of obvious that if you were to purchase a similar priced SVS it would be pretty much out-muscled...

If I ever hear one, i will definetely let yall know...

I wanna hear REL and Sunfire...

I need to hear the Def Tech Supercubes too...

I have heard the Velo DD series....FINE subwoofers there for their size...

Obvious? Who said the Sunfire would be out-muscled? They pack quite a wallop. Period. Two minutes on the web found them for $1165 each. Comparable to others.

[PolkThug]

You guys are crazy. Bose blows them all away!

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Im gonna agree with Polkthug on this one....

Dual Bose Modules can smoke SVS and Sunfire

[PolkThug]

Yep! Like my customers always tell me "Bose is the best!"

[dkg999]

I stand corrected and bow to the higher wisdom of Polkthug! Do we need a group hug?

[Mjr7531]

Absolutely!
It'd make us all feel so much better!
Happy Holidays guys, remember, its that time of the year to be happy!
Or stressed.
Big dif.
Now, not to be off topic, I beleive its the ear of the beholder.

[Toxis]

My only thing is, I get a discount on Sunfire. Plus, why buy something when I can't tell my customers I personally own one and love it? "Oh, my sub? Well... you can't find it in any store, that's why i bought it." So for the price I pay for a Sunfire, I could get an SVS with comparable sound/output but again... why?

[bvette94]

I loved the pickle barrel comment.




ps i am new to the cult also.