Source vs Speakers...read the conditions first

[steveinaz]

Let's make the following assumptions to keep everything on a level playing field:

(Control group): You have a $1,500 power amplifier (choose whatever you like).

You're going to have only 3 components; a power amplifier, a cd player, and a pair of speakers. Which component will have the most notable effect on overall sound?

[RuSsMaN]

No brainer, speakers.

I've always believed in finding speakers you like first, then figure out the back end of the rig, and what combos sound best to you.

[dorokusai]

Speakers.

[Tour2ma]

Speakers... at least 80% of the equation...

[PolkThug]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and choose speakers.

[George Grand]

Speakers are the wooden things that make the noise right? Yes? Okay, then it's the speakers. That's my vote. You can shut down the poll now. All the heavyweights have checked in.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

[TheGrayGhost]

Speakers and then cables.

[Loud & Clear]

I'd like to suggest that it's all going to sound poorly without exotic interconnects and speaker wire. I find wire that I'm comfortable with first, then I match speakers and components to suit my wires.

[Loud & Clear]

Originally posted by George Grand
You can shut down the poll now. All the heavyweights have checked in.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

:p

Happy Valentine's Day.

[TroyD]

1. Speakers
2. Source
3. Pre
4. Amp

Source and pre are pretty close IMO.

BDT

[phuz]

w00t

Speakers, of coz.

[reeltrouble1]

Originally posted by TroyD
1. Speakers
2. Source
3. Pre
4. Amp

Source and pre are pretty close IMO.

BDT

Pretty much agree I might put the actual listening room ahead of the amp.

[Shizelbs]

Speakers. I'd like to second the room acoustics being a big player.

[TroyD]

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Pretty much agree I might put the actual listening room ahead of the amp.

Actually, I'd put the room and setup at the top of the list.

Don't think a room can do some funky stuff to the sound of your speaks, ask hoosier.

How you digging those SRS's, Ted??

BDT

[George Grand]

L & C,

Glad you liked it. I made a funny.

The room wasn't a choice BDT.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

[reeltrouble1]

Originally posted by TroyD

How you digging those SRS's, Ted??

BDT

:D :D :D

As the Tim the Tool Man said "MORE POWER" These babies like lots of juice.

RT1

[TroyD]

Originally posted by George Grand


The room wasn't a choice BDT.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

They don't call me BDT for nothing, you know.

[Toxis]

Not a single vote for source yet... go figure. :D

[steveinaz]

Edited because with hindsight, it was an ignorant thing to say.
Carry on....

[LuSh]

Steveinaz your attempts are pathetic at best...you're more or less trollling now...to the point I really don't care to post on this forum anymore. Who cares about a $49 CD player, compare that creek to mine and you will hear differences...honestly have you ever heard a $3k-$5k CDP? Have you heard a $3k-$5k pair or speakers? I'm assuming you've heard the latter.

Obviously the speakers CHANGE more because it colors the sound more, it adds and takes away, as you move up the chain in CDP's they only ADD information, unlike speakers. This does NOT mean that the source is any less important. This poll has no merit on a SPEAKER FORUM...try the same on Audiogon, the results might be quite different, in fact I know they would be. If you were closer to where I lived I'd gladly show you the difference between a $49 CDP, a Creek and my reference combo....

I'd also like to see a show of hands of EVERYBODY who has heard a $5k CDP vs a $5k set of speakers. My guess almost everybody has heard the speakers, very few could even name a CDP costing near that. Now I'm forced using dollar amounts because on a forum like this very few people have heard or know what a higher end source is. Most people have wasted THOUSANDS of dollars on amplification and wiring when their source is a DVD player.

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by LuSh

I'd also like to see a show of hands of EVERYBODY who has heard a $5k CDP vs a $5k set of speakers.

Ooh, ooh! I Have, I have!!! And I'd much rather have the speakers.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Lush, you're way off base here...

First, Steve is an excellent contributor to the forum, this is far from trolling.

You're here with your typical babble 'I have reference gear, you can't understand what I'm talking about' speech...we've all seen it before.

You said the poll has no merit becuase it's on a speaker forum...SO WHAT. Yes this is a speaker forum, so what do you expect? It's not like anything said on here is the final word anyway, it's just a forum, not a sceitific inquiry into which is better...

Your generalizations are way off about what people on here have heard. How could you possibly have the knowledge to accurately make that statement?

Just becuase you're in the minority you decide to lash out...very nice...

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Oh, and yes, I've heard several Meridian and Lexicon players over 4K. Yes, they're nice, but would sound like crap hooked up to a cheap set of speakers...

[LuSh]

I have never once said acted like I know everything, I have opinions. People on this forum have emailed me about questions and I have responded, and vice versa.

Steve did this to get a rise out of people plain and simple. I don't think I'm in the minority. I just don't think the other members that know, waste their time on polls like this. Price really has nothing to do with the issue. It's more about building a foundation. You act as If I'm the outsider, I think you're wrong friend. Cheer up, it's only a forum.

ps, the typical babble comment was quite funny, like I said champ, people ask for my advice, you might take it as babble others certinaly don't. goodluck in your adventures.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by LuSh
I just don't think the other members that know, waste their time on polls like this.
Hmm...so you're suggesting that the people who responded to this thread 'don't know'?

just noticed that most of the members whose opinions I have learned to respect have chimed in on this thread with their thoughts, save a few (Jesse and a couple others come to mind).

I'll be curious to see who all responds and how the overall verdict turns out.

I reacted like an ass becuase you entered this thread that way...acting like an ass.

I don't know Steve personally, but I think anyone that's been around here long enough to know him realizes that you're off base. I don't think the intent is trying to get a rise out of anyone...just curious where everyone falls on each side of the line and what the general consensus is.

[Early B.]

Here's the essence of what Lush said:


Obviously the speakers CHANGE more because it colors the sound more, it adds and takes away, as you move up the chain in CDP's they only ADD information, unlike speakers. This does NOT mean that the source is any less important.

Seemingly, this statement has merit, but not in the context of this thread. The original question was "Which component will have the most notable effect on overall sound?" Obviously most people chose speakers, regardless of the reasons. Kind of a loaded question, though.

Lush, I'm assuming from your perspective that the "best" speakers are those that provide the least coloration to the sound. Are we talking full range drivers here?

[VR3]

I havnt heard a 5,000 dollar CDP..

But I have heard a couple 10,000 dollar ones...

Speakers set a foundation, they are what actually produces the sound. If you dont like how something sounds, the chances of your changing the gear to make u like it is highly unlikely....

[F1nut]

Yeah Steve, I'm right here and I voted awhile ago....wanna quess which one is mine?

I had the chance to compare a $70.00 (about) cdp which was highly modded, so add another $100.00 or so in parts vs a $6500.00 cdp here at my house. After about half a song on the inexpensive cdp the other person and I just looked at each other, hit stop and disconnected it.

I've lost count the number of times I've read about someone here upgrading their power amp or cdp and reporting that their speakers all of a sudden came to life. Hmmm.....so it wasn't the speakers, was it!?!

Now, I've also heard $23k speakers with a $7k amp and a $6k cdp and those speakers sounded like crap. Why? The answer isn't easy because there are too many variables involved. Each one of those pieces have received great reviews, so what we have is the possible lack of synergy or bad room acoustics. Since the room was acoustically treated then one could draw the conclusion that it was lack of synergy. As MM pointed out in the other thread, synergy plays a huge role and is most likely THE most important aspect above all others regardless of the price points.

Having said all that, I still believe that garbage in will result in garbage out.

[Early B.]

F1 is right -- there are too many variables. Besides, how important is this issue? Let's be real -- virtually no one uses a $49 DVD player on a high end audio system, and no one uses Sears speakers with a reference system, so what the hell are we arguing about? The bottom line is that we buy components that "match" our wallets. If each of us had fatter wallets, we wouldn't even be discussing this issue.

Yeah, that's the problem. We're just a bunch of broke-ass MF's talking a bunch of bullsh*t because that's what broke-ass MF's do. :eek:

[organ]

Speakers:)

[steveinaz]

Lush, F1Nut:

You guys took my intent the wrong way. Actually I was surprised at your opinions and wondered how many more felt that way.

I agree that your primary source is VERY important, no doubt. I just don't think that (my opinion, now) they have nearly the impact on attaining the sound you want that a speaker change can have--especially for the performance-to-cost ratio.

Forums are all about opinions; I may not agree with you, but I respect your opinion, and I'm curious as to why your opinion differs from mine, thats all. No need to take it personally.

In my 32yrs of collecting hi-fi I've wasted a ton of money. What I try to do is shed a little light based on my experiences, to the new folks, so they don't do the same or at least minimize the damage. I was trying to "draw-out" some the older/wiser folks with this poll to see if maybe I was in left field on this one...

Like I've said before, the most important thing is that you enjoy your system, regardless of personal priorites or methodolgy in selecting equipment.

Can I get a hug now?

[F1nut]

Steve,

For the record, I didn't take anything you said personally, nor do I believe I mis-took your intent. On this subject matter I will agree to disagree with you and it looks like a lot of others too.....lol.

Jesse

[dorokusai]

The singular "Source" choice was probably Lush, as he always supports that position in other threads.

[Crazed]

1) Speakers
2) Room Load
3) Source/Pre (I've heard both make a difference)
4) Amps
5) The little wire thingies

[Frank Z]

Tough call. Speakers are going to color the sound based on their design and unique characteristics. The source can also sevelry impact what your hearing based on its design, build quality, sampling rate, etc.

I'll pass on voting officially and just state that trial and error are sometimes the best teacher when it comes to audio and video equipment. I don't think that anyone can state with 100% certainty that 1 piece of the puzzle is more important than the others. There are simply to many counterpoints to each arguement, and all of us are going to base our comments on a purely subjective opinion.

No where did I put my asbestos G-string......

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by F1nut
On this subject matter I will agree to disagree with you and it looks like a lot of others too.....lol. At least you have to admit that it's easier for you to disagree sitting 7' in front of pair of 2.3 tl's... ;)

[F1nut]

Bruce......:D

Mark, that was my vote.

[dorokusai]

I see, well sorry for your choice then.

[Zero]

Oh this ones easy..

Speaker wire floor-stands.

[beardog03]

Maybe it`s cause I`m fairly new to all this, but I thought it was a valid question...

Almost all of my gear is new to me and I have found that with the amp , pre , and cdp that I`m using ...I can tell the most difference between the speakers now...

I also can tell the difference between my Parasound amp , and the bridged Rotels...

I think there is no "right" answer to the question...
Just a more reasonable one...

no matter what combo I am using...I think the speakers are one of the biggest factors in my system

In my humble, yet uninformed opinion...

just like the tubes I have been trying...each set of speakers that I have, make what I have, sound different from set to set..

I now have my asbestos boxers on backwards awaiting flamage..!
:D :( :eek:

if garbage in means garbage out...
won`t the garbage sound better with a better set of speakers ?

[F1nut]

Don't be sorry for my choice, I'm not.

Here's a similar thread from another site if anyone is open minded enough to read it. It's actually a little more balanced than this one.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1104997830&read&keyw&zzspeakers+vs+source

[danger boy]

cables make the biggest difference. :p

<runs and hides>

[Toxis]

I'd say the furniture has the most to do with it. I mean, it's all in how your equipment sits on the rack. Oh oh, and speaker stands too!

[madmax]

Magic bricks and micro-pebbles make the biggest difference.
madmax

[dorokusai]

There's nothing about choosing speakers over source that's not "open minded" Mr. Intellectual. Where's your smiley face or should we all take that to mean we're not on your level?

Hmmm....doesn't sound like my SDA's....hmmm doesn't sound like my SDA's....hmmm doesn't sound like my SDA's. Broken record.

[Zero]

Good stuff in, garbage out. I'd much rather have to endure some great speakers on cheap dvd player (which suffice to say I have lived with for awhile) than buy a NAIM player and hook it up to Cerwin Vegas *cough*. All I would be doing is getting the best potential from junk. So what would that sound be described as.. ... junk royale?

All components play a vital role, and in my experience, none are more influential than the speakers and the room they are placed in.

[jdhdiggs]

My point in the whole thing is that there is a much more substantial difference in sound quality/coloration on the speaker side than the source side.

I mean, SDA's with adequate power and just about any CD player will sound much better (imo) than $100K of electronics driving the speakers from some $50 boom box.

Here's my reasoning: Electronics, especially digital, only have 1 answer: the source material. No matter what pre/amp/cdp you have, the goal is to have the same go out as came in. The main question here: Does the output match the input

Speakers on the other hand are much more interpretive. These questions go more along the lines of: This is what I believe a kick drum should sound like. This is what I think and accoustic guitar should sound like.

Also, a speaker designer must make more sacrifices in that they must balance speaker size, efficiency, cost, etc... where a source supplier really only needs to worry about cost. The other items are made to fit the cost point. (This is simplified but I hope you get the point)

[BlueMDPicker]

IMHO source MATERIAL is the largest factor in SQ satisfaction. Half-assed engineering/production cannot be overcome with any component in the chain. Find a recording that knocks your socks off and follow the discography of the personnel with their fingers on the board sliders. Source material like that will sound pretty damn good on whatever you can afford or prefer.

Edit - Ooops! Like minds typing in unison. You were ALL wrong except jdh :cool:

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by BlueMDPicker
Edit - Ooops! Like minds typing in unison. You were ALL wrong except jdh :cool:

Awww man, how come I always get excluded from everything... :(

[steveinaz]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
My point in the whole thing is that there is a much more substantial difference in sound quality/coloration on the speaker side than the source side.



Bravo! Thank you brother, my point exactly.

Sure, in a system all things are important (read that: synergy), but some impact the overall sound more than others. I agree whole heartedly that source is a very close number "2" but if I have an extra $1000 bucks to spend, it's going into speakers--because in my experience, there's just not much (audible) difference between a $800 CDP and $1800 one, aside from exotic materials and asthetics. However, speaker quality can be very dramatic between an $800/pr and an $1800/pr--at least thats been my experience.

[steveinaz]

Originally posted by BlueMDPicker
IMHO source MATERIAL is the largest factor in SQ satisfaction. Half-assed engineering/production cannot be overcome with any component in the chain. Find a recording that knocks your socks off and follow the discography of the personnel with their fingers on the board sliders. Source material like that will sound pretty damn good on whatever you can afford or prefer.



ABSOLUTELY. I'm sure we all own CD's that make our system's sound like $29 boom boxes, at least I know I do. Nazareth, Hair of the Dog comes to mind first---that CD now does duty as a beer coaster.

[F1nut]

Originally posted by dorokusai
There's nothing about choosing speakers over source that's not "open minded" Mr. Intellectual. Where's your smiley face or should we all take that to mean we're not on your level?

Hmmm....doesn't sound like my SDA's....hmmm doesn't sound like my SDA's....hmmm doesn't sound like my SDA's. Broken record.

You wake up on the wrong side of the bed again? You took that all wrong.

Your personal attacks are unwarranted nor do I run around saying what you wrote.

[dragon1952]

Boy, ya take one day off to get a hose shoved up your ass and miss the big fight....rats! :mad:

[dorokusai]

It reads like it reads, sorry.

As for not "finding my sound", please, I have all kinds of things to choose from and it has nothing to do with "finding my sound".

I choose to not be stuck in an endless loop of rhetoric.

Dragon1952 - No fight here, just a difference of opinion, nothing more nothing less.

[scottnbnj]

Originally posted by steveinaz
Which component will have the most notable effect on overall sound?

if the nut between the speakers is insecure, true audio nirvana can not be comprehended, much less attained, even if the path to it fills the room.

)

[George Grand]

Did Dan tell you to say that?

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

[scottnbnj]

oh yeah,.. everybody is lobbying ~me~ to come down on their side of the issue.

)

[tonyv1]

Back to the Poll:
Speakers!
When I decided I wanted Maggies, I knew that I needed an amp with some BALLS. So I started with the Parasound HCA-1500A. I'm currently using an Anthem AMP 2 with a tube preamp (Anthem PRE 2L SE) of course.

[dorokusai]

Tony - I picked up a pair of MMG's....I'm really liking them....and thinking of bigger already :)

[Tour2ma]

MMG's, eh? sweet... Sitting just to the outside and 1.5' or so in front of your SDA's? And toed in of course...

Used 1.6's are becoming both a little more available and affordable so be on the lookout... Awesome at their price point... even new. The best imaging speaker I've laid my ears on...



Meanwhile, back at the poll...

Speakers are numero uno... If they're not worthy, how you going to hear the nuances in different sources, wire, etc.?

[dorokusai]

SDA's? I haven't listened to SDA's in months honcho. SDA is SDA, I know that sound by heart, time to move on.

I'm digging the MMG's and I'm picking up a pair of vintage Mag 2A's tomorrow.

[George Grand]

Doro,

Hot **** man! Are those little things sweet or what? MMG's at $550/pair delivered to the house is one of the best deals of all-time. Unfortunately, my ex-neighbor Dean (divorce) moved out about 3 months ago. The 4 MMG's in one room was really special. He was driving them with some kind of Rotel multi-channel power amp, and it was a great match.

That's good news you're branching out substantially.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

[Early B.]

Doro --

I've heard good things about the MMG's. Just wondering what you did to fill in the bass. Also, what's your room size? How far do you have them from the back wall?

Trying to see if they could possibly fit in my environment.

[steveinaz]

Magnepans have always peaked my interest. I'd love to audition a pair, but I'm out in no-mans-land, arizona.

[dorokusai]

George/Early - They are real nice, and I'm impressed with the clarity, especially on acoustics. They can't do low bass, but the bass that is present is smooth, albeit a little thin. I have another pair to pick up tomorrow, Magnapan IIA. They are a little older, but are larger, so I'm wondering if they are night and day.

I'm trying to keep it fresh in here George :)

I've just been playing around with placement, but upright is definetly a better position initially. I'm at 4ft apart, and 16 inches from the back wall and with a small toe-in. I haven't invested a huge amount of time in adjusting the placement, but I didn't find them as hard to set up as I had heard from others.

I think they would be an easy fit for you Early.

[George Grand]

Early B.,

My old neighbor Dean had 4 of them in a room about as small as you could imagine. The placement was probably as bad as could be, and they STILL watered my eyes. He was augmenting the low end with a small, Carver Sunfire sized sub. I think it was a Pinnacle sub, or something else not too famous. I heard them both with and without the sub. Either way, at $550/pair, they're special.

Can't have kids or pets around them. That is an absolute.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

[McLoki]

I am really surprised that amplifiers are so low on the list with many people. BTW - I would put room or placement as the number 1 thing to improve, but since that was not a choice......

My vote (in order of amount of change) would be:

Speakers (largest change in sound)

Amps (depending on the speakers chosen)

Pre-amp (to be honest, I have not heard alot of these, so I may be full of the excriment of your choice)

Source

Cables



My choice of location for amp (being second) is I have heard many great speakers that sounded like crap when run from an AVR. Put everything else the same and add an amp and they sound great. Heck, do a search on the forum for lsi sound improvement and see how many say "you want LSi 15's to sound awesome keep running them off a Yamaha or Onkyo AVR and get a really nice cd player..... "

Michael

[tonyv1]

Doro, that's too close to the back wall. I'm at 29 inches, but using a 4ft fake ficus tree behind each speaker to breakup the rear dispersion. I helped a friend's son rewire the tweeters on a MG-IIB. There's pics on the MUG site of the project.
Steve, try 'em for 60 days and then send them back. You'll only be out the shipping back cost. Sometimes MMGs are sold as used from the factory for less.

[LuSh]

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1011208490&read&3&4&


Humor yourselfs...possibly if you're bored.

[beardog03]

Lush,

Legit question here...

If you replacesd you LSi9`s w/ RT55i`s would you be as happy with your system ?

Would you notice a big difference ?

I have 55`s and I`m lookin at 9`s.....or 7`s

[PolkThug]

Just run frequency sweeps with different brand CD players, then run frequency sweeps with different brand speakers. Guess which one shows the most variation?

:)

[McLoki]

Originally posted by McLoki
Heck, do a search on the forum for lsi sound improvement and see how many say "you want LSi 15's to sound awesome keep running them off a Yamaha or Onkyo AVR and get a really nice cd player..... "

Another quote to look for is "get a reviever that has pre-ins so you can upgrade the preamp in the AVR and still use the amplifier section of it."

Michael

[jmierzur]

Originally posted by beardog03
Lush,

Legit question here...

If you replacesd you LSi9`s w/ RT55i`s would you be as happy with your system ?

Would you notice a big difference ?

I have 55`s and I`m lookin at 9`s.....or 7`s

LuSh, do you have several different sources, amps and speakers that have an obvious difference in quality. If so, could you do a couple of listening evaluations on the impact each change has to the overall presentation. I have my views from experimentation and would be interested in hearing your results from experimentation.

[LuSh]

beardog, I honestly don't like the sound of the RTi series, I never have. I very much like the LSi character. The LSi's do require a better set of electronics to make them sound good.

PolkThug, nobody is disputing the fact that speakers influence the sound the most. What is being debated by myself and some others is that the source dictates how good the speaker sounds, and not vice versa. A good set of speakers won't hide a bad source. Therefore I recommend you build a system with a good source in mind. Because good sources are usually expensive ( i recommend buying used) I'd also recommend trying to invest as much money as possible into your sorce and finding a speaker which suites your tonal needs. I have done this with LSi9's and it has suited me very well.

Try running a set of B&W, Totem, Thiel, Harbeth or Spendor speakers using a poor source, these types of speakers will allow you to hear many many nuances up the stream. That's my point.

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by dorokusai
I'm at 4ft apart, and 16 inches from the back wall and with a small toe-in. I haven't invested a huge amount of time in adjusting the placement, but I didn't find them as hard to set up as I had heard from others. As tony suggested, bring 'em out a little more and keep playing...

With your 4' split, I found about 30" out about right for my 1.5's. Kept toeing in a bit more until imaging nirvana hit my ears. As you said, they're acoustic heaven...