I need your opinions on some subwoofers

[glemay]

Looking to buy a 12 inch subwoofer that will run off a Clarion amplifier putting out around 380Watts RMS. The sub will be used on our boat, so it will have to fill a fairly large area, but we are not shooting for mind boggling SPL, but SQ and loud enough listening levels. We want a subwoofer that will be able to withstand the elements, moisture, humidity, changing temperatures, exposure to sunlight.

What type of box should we go with, note: nothing really big. Do you guys think this will fulfill our needs?

Here are some subs I was looking at :

MTX (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=9&sku_id=0665000FS10043430&catid=11052&newdeptid=9)
Infinity (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=9&sku_id=0665000FS10040092&catid=11052&newdeptid=9)
Rockford (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=9&sku_id=0665000FS10040195&catid=11052&newdeptid=9)
Rockford2 (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=9&sku_id=0665000FS10040586&catid=11052&newdeptid=9)
JBL (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=21344&sku_id=0926INGFS10017576&catid=20119&newdeptid=20098&PCName=)

We don't really want to buy online. What other suggestions do you guys have?

Thanks

Gerald

[neomagus00]

never having done a marine project, this is just a guess, but i'd vote for a 15" sub, just to really fill out the bottom end, cause you're not going to get the cabin gain that a car will... heck, you're probably going to get less than a standard house setup. i know you said 12", but...

to withstand the rigors of being outdoors, you have to go with a car sub... if you can get one, a marine sub. to fit a small box, choose one with a loose suspension (ie one designed for a small box :)). 'truck' subs could work well, they're very shallow.

go for metal and rubber parts... that means no foam surrounds, no paper-composite cones, nothing like that... they could disintegrate.

i can't seem to access any of those links, or i would comment on them.

this (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4061_90400838_tab=B,00.html?compName=PNA_P roductDetailComponent) in this (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4061_97957030,00.html) would probably do well.

[Jstas]

Hmmm, check out the MMC2124DVC and load it in a sealed box. It takes something like .88 cu. ft. which is dinky for a 12 inch sub. If you wire that Clarion amp to the sub in a 2 ohm load, IIRC, it should be putting out about 650-700 watts RMS. The MMC2124DVC has a 400 watt RMS power handling per voicecoil. I can also verify first hand that it will rattle fillings loose if you throw some power at it and that Clarion amp should be plenty of clean power for it. I pushed a JL Audio amp to clipping at Tweeter with a pair of MMC2124DVC's and I was throughly impressed with them. Defintly a better performer than anything you listed. They also go for around 150-170 bucks U.S.

I think it will perform better than you expectations. It'll stand up to the weather too with butyl rubber surrounds and the Dynamic Balance Metalized Poly Cones. Future Shop should beable to get it for you too. They are an authorized PA dealer.

[MacLeod]

I second Jstas' recommendation. Those are awesome subs. Ill be going with a 10" version in just a matter of days (yippee)!

As mentioned Tweeter is about the only Polk/Momo retailer but you may not have on in your neighborhood.

I know you are leary of online ordering, I am myself, but iof you cant find a Tweeter or Future Shop, SoundDomain.com (http://www.cardomain.com/item/POLMM2124DVC) is a very trustworthy dealer. You cant find too many people that have much bad to say about them and Ive never heard of them ripping anybody off. Plus, they are an authorized Polk retailer so you know youre not getting some remanufactured crap and youll get the full Polk warranty which is among the best in the industry.

[glemay]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I got a few more questions. What would be the advantage of going with a dual voice coil subwoofer and running it at 2 ohm. (I'm not sure if Clarion is stable down that low)

If I went with that polk you suggested Jstas, I should be able to buy a box that will work with that sub right? I think I would be really interested in the polks if Future Shop can get them.

A 15 would be nice, but don't think we would have room, but if we did, would a 15 really be better than a 12. Would it sound as clean?

By going with a sealed box would we lose much spl and the frequence range?

Thanks

Gerald

[Jstas]

Got a model number on the Clarion?

You can buy a box that should work out just fine with that sub. Most pre-made boxes will be right around that .88 cu. ft. displacement you are looking for. Most are .80-.85 and if you just stuff it with polyfil, it'll work out well enough.

A 15 will not be better than a 12. You are talking a negligible difference. The only benefit a 15 would have over the 12 is volume. It'll get slightly louder. Problem is that it's sensitivity usually decreases so it needs more power to belt out the tunes than the 12 will. The 12 is a smaller cone so it is more responsive than the 15. The 15 may or may not dig a bit deeper in the frequency range than the 12 but if so, it's only 2-3 Hz at the most. If you had dual 15's vs. dual 12's, the difference would be more noticable. For a boat, the 12 will do fine. You don't need anything more.

A sealed box can be just as loud as a ported box. I'm recommending a sealed box because a ported box would be lost out on open water. A ported box needs a cabin to pressurize to give that louder bass. A sealed box doesn't necessarily need that cabin. Also, a sealed box setup will dig deeper in teh frequency range and be much more accurate. Typically a sealed box will have a flatter response with a wider frequency response than a ported box. It's a better choice than ported for a boat. It will also not let water and other crap into the port. Ported enclosures are not all that weather tight what with a big hole in them. Sealed will be much less likely to sustain damage from the elements. If you are worried about volume, that Clarion should have plenty of balls to push that sub at it's limit. At that point, ported vs. sealed, SPL is a moot point. Either enclosure would reach levels that would be uncomfortable for your average listener. Don't worry about it. Sealed is a better choice for many reasons.

Let us know what model that Clarion amp is so I can dig up some info on it. I'm pretty sure it's 2 ohm stable. Damn near everything made in the past 6-8 years is 2 ohm stable.

[glemay]

apx400.2m I believe. It is a marine amplifier.

[Jstas]

Well that's a drag. Your amp is only 2 ohm stable in stereo mode. I thought you had a mono sub amp. Not that big of a problem. You can get a single voice coil MMC2124 and still get good performace out of a similar enclosure. Granted volume will not be what it could be with DVC but it will make plenty of noise for you.

Then again an amp that only puts out 100W x 2 at 4 ohms is not necessarily going to be a bass power house. If you have the funds, you might want to consider upgrading that amp to probably about twice that power at the minimum.

If you can't though, those MMC2124's are certainly performers and don't serve to dissappoint. Either one, the single or teh dual voice coil models, will serve you well and meet your expectations if they don't exceed it.

[glemay]

Well it would be nice if we could get a bigger amplifer but my dad is ok with the idea because we already have an amplifier laying around not doing anything, so we are already part way there.

So if I understand this correctly the dual voice coils allow for more volume.

Does anyone have any experience with the MMC2124 in a sealed box?

Thanks

Gerald

[Jstas]

Yes, I do. I already said that I do. The DVC doesn't sound any different than the MMC2124 non-DVC. The DVC sub just plays loud because it has twice as many voicecoils and handles twice as much power. The whole reason I was thinking DVC in the first place was because of the lack of cabin gain on a boat. You obviously are on a budget and the MMC2124DVC runs about $170 and will play loud yet still fit in a small enclosure. Space is at a premium on a boat so that sub fit your requirments of loud enough to hear, small enough to fit and cheap enough to not break the budget.

You can still get the DVC and run each voicecoil at the 100 watts RMS off of the stereo amp but it will only have about 1/3rd of it's rated RMS power. The problem there is that you are going to need to play it at high volume when out on the water because of that lack of cabin gain. That loud volume will make that sub start to push harder and it's impedance will change. As it changes, that sub will need more power from that amp that just isn't there. That causes clipping which kills amps and subs. You'll have wasted all your money and time and have a dead amp and sub to boot.

Go with the MMC2124 and bridge your amp to a mono mode at 4 ohms. It will run about 200 watts RMS which is roughly half of what the MMC2124 needs and creates a much better situation for you.

[neomagus00]

Originally posted by Jstas
That causes clipping which kills amps and subs. You'll have wasted all your money and time and have a dead amp and sub to boot.
now, now, we don't want to sound too optimistic and happy around here...

[glemay]

Thanks Jstas, and sorry if I misread some where. If it is not possible for us to get Future Shop to order that Polk Sub, which of the 5 subs I first mentioned would be a close second?

Thanks

Gerald

[Jstas]

Honestly, I'd take that JBL. It'll work great with the amp you have and is probably the best bang for the buck out there. I see the $119 price and think it's kinda high but that Canadian currency price so it's right about where it should be price-wise. It's a highly under-rated sub. Great sound, hard hitting and fairly good looks. Works well in almost any enclosure. I've used them before, infact I still have a 10 inch sub that is about 6 years old and it still works like it did 6 years ago. Defintly not a bad buy in any respect. It's also very forgiving of box size. They recommend a optimum box size but they don't seem to be bothered by sizes that are as much as 30% bigger or smaller than the recommended size. They dig relativly deeply (down to the mid 20 Hz range) and have a high sensitivity at 93 dB for a sub.

[glemay]

Depending on the cost and possibilty of getting it at Future Shop we might go with the JBL. Here are some of the boxes for 12 inch subs that I have access to, which would you recommend:

Basswork Sealed (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=0&sku_id=0926INGFS10029921&catid=20121&newdeptid=20098)
Basswork Ported (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=0&sku_id=0926INGFS10043212&catid=20121&newdeptid=20098)
Q-Logic (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=0&sku_id=0926INGFS10034045&catid=20121&newdeptid=20098)
Extreme Bass (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10030842&catid=11062&logon=&langid=EN&dept=9)
Basswork Slot Ported (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=9&sku_id=0665000FS10042294&catid=11062&newdeptid=9)

Thanks

Gerald

[Jstas]

I don't have too much experience with Bassworks but Q-Logic makes a decent enough product. It all depends on two things, doe sit meet the requirements of the sub sufficiently and does it meet your needs?

If so then price is the factor. Whichever one you feel is worth your money, thats what you buy.

What you might want to do for a marine application and it'll give you som egood experience is to get yourself a sheet of MDF, build a box to similar dimensions of one of those Q-Logic boxes and then cover it in a layer or two of fiberglas. Let it cure, sealed the insides with silicone caulking in the joints and then paint it with a good quality marine paint. It'll match your board and there will be no carpeting to get all funky. Plus, water is a non-issue because the fiberglass will effectivly waterproof and seal the enclosure. It's easy and fairly cheap and will be a damn sight better than the pre-fab boxes.

To 'gals the box after it is built, cover it with resin (make sure you haven't mounted subs or terminal cups yet) and then gran sheets of the woven fiberglas, soak them in the resin and lay them over the box coating it completely. Cover with another layer or resin and let it dry for a while. Come back repeat the steps for a second coat. Not only will it add strength but it will also hide any imperfections in your craftsmanship of the box. Trim off edges and cut holes if you didn't already, just like you would with any piece of wood.

For the 'glas, you should get a marine grade resin because water can cause the fiberglas to deteriorate. Especially saltwater. Same thing for the paint, marine grade. Also, grab yourself some gasket material at a boat shop and make yourself some gaskets to go around the speaker hole and the terminal cup hol to reall seal it from the elements. Get a terminal cup with gold connectors so they don't corrode and use stainless steel screws too. Even if they sub comes with screws, get stainless steel ones.

That should give you a sub enclosure that will last a good long time, be strong as hell, weather resistant and leak-proof.

Like I said before though, a ported box would be a bad idea on a boat.

[glemay]

Thanks Jstas,

Now to run this by my dad. We will probably be going with the JBL since I just noticed the Polk MMC2124 retails for about $250 CDN and we can pick up the JBL for about half. And looks like sealed is the way to go. Not sure weather we will buy or build, although a fiberglass box would be nice, real nice.

Well thanks again!

Gerald

[goingganzo]

check this out will tromp all. http://www.ascendantaudio.com/Atlas%2012.htm

[neomagus00]

looks nice, i like the xbl motor, but it's a paper cone, not really the best choice for a marine application. other than that, i'd say it's a reasonable option.

[glemay]

Yeah, what neomagus00 said, plus it looks like the surrounds are foam, but not sure.

[exalted512]

all of the subwoofers with XBL^2 technology that i know of have foam surrounds
-Cody

[neomagus00]

hum... wonder why that is? butyl rubber too stiff, perhaps?

[exalted512]

if i had to say, i would say 1 for sound quality, and 2 because maybe theyre better for longer excursion subs??
i dont know, ill ask
-Cody

[goingganzo]

yes it is foam they are great i have 4 now yeah i just need to get some stuff to make a box.

[glemay]

Well today we went to Best Buy. My dad and I check out the JBL's and didn't really seem too impressed with what we saw or heard. I mean it wasn't bad, just not quite what we were looking for. So we then left Best Buy and called up a friend and he recommended this place. So off we go.

We get there and walk into the place and tell the guy we are looking for a subwoofer to put on our boat. He showed us a subwoofer in a nice ported box with a grill. We liked what we saw and heard and walked out of the place with one of these. (http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/pna/product/detail/0,,32171715_32252631_35788770_tab=B,00.html?compNa me=PNA_ProductDetailComponent)

Got it home and mounted the driver in the ported box and went off to the boat. I hooked the subwoofer up temporarily and was pretty happy but have yet to hook everything up and see what it really sounds like. But I think we will be happy, it's a real smooth sounding subwoofer. And not to mention the price, all for about $250 CDN.

Gerald

[MacLeod]

Thats cool. If you like it and are happy then that all that matters.

[glemay]

Just finished applying a coat of sealer/clearcoat/varnish or whatever else you want to call it to the exposed MDF to prevent some of the moiture from penetrating.

Gerald

[glemay]

With the decent weather today, we installed the Clarion APX400.2M amplifier down in the cabin and tied it into the breaker panel. So to turn on the sub all we gotta do is turn the Brigde Stereo breaker on.

I then got everything hooked up to the receiver and turned it on and adjusted my gains and let me tell you, my dad and I were very impressed.

Everything sounds so much cleaner than before and we now have so low end in our music. I honestly must say that the Pioneer Premier in a ported box hooked up to our Clarion amplifier sounds pretty similar to my Paradigm PW-2200. It is not as refined, but isn't too far away. And I'd say the Pioneer Premier could hit similar SPL to the Paradigm even with very minimal room/cabin gain but won't sound quite as clean

Very, very happy with our purchase. Everything sounds great, the subwoofer is built very well, very durable and everything looks great. I'm going to have one hell of a summer. Can't wait!

Thanks again guys for all your input!

If anyone is looking for a very well built subwoofer that has exceptional sound quality for a reasonable price, check out the Pioneer Premier TS-W125C. Great subwoofer all around!

Gerald

[exalted512]

glad you like it! thats the main thing in car audio
i wish i was easily satisfied:(
-Cody

[MacLeod]

LOL!!!

Hey Cody, that reminds me; isnt it time for you to buy new speakers again? :p :p

[exalted512]

not quite:D
im almost done, i can see the light at the end of the tunnel...
all i need now is sound deadening, amps, rcas, power wire, couple batcaps, alternator, equalizer, random distroblocks, and battery terminals
yea, almost done;)
-Cody

[spwuinmk67]

And what about the new truck too? :)

[exalted512]

most of that is for the new truck. the only upgrade i might do to this one is a batcap. ill be ordering 5 gallons of sound deadener later this week or early next week from second skin for $280. I just sold my old box for $150. Pretty damn good considering shipping was $22 and i bought it for $130 and used it for 3 years...
swerve is buying my diamonds as soon as i can get them to him...
im still trying to sell my subs. i need to do my taxes so i can get my $300 from that...ill be swimming in cash soon. but thats a bad thing. i have this strange urge to spend money when i have lots of it...
-Cody

[Lonewolf32]

you might see if you can find an Imagedynamics dealer, and look for an IDQ12v.2 d2 it has dual 2ohm voice coils, and if wired in series would give you a 4 ohm load. they are rated at 350/700 watts. it also fits in a small sealed encloser between .65-1.00 cft.
works best in a .85 to .88. It has been praised for its SQ ability, and is also in the $200 price range. and plays DEEP.

here is a link to thier site
http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/website/products/idq.html