Something to read [Archive]

PolkThug

03-30-2005, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by steveinaz
[B]You mean to tell me that the guy who says that a wire hanger with stripped ends sounds as good as exotic audio cables,
Coat Hangers CAN work just as well as expensive digital interconnects.

"So just to recap this thing to death, we had: The professional Sony S7000TP reference DVD player, going to a 20 year old, ugly green, RCA patch cord which was cut in two. On one side of the green RCA I soldered a blue painted wire hanger to the shield and another to the center conductor. I soldered the other ends of the wire hangers to the other half of the ugly green RCA patch cord. We then clipped the alligator clips with thin wire to the centers and shields of the RCA connectors of my cable and of the Canare cable, and then plugged the other XLR-balanced side of the Canare into the Dolby Labs decoder. I honestly did not know how badly we would be rolling errors on this one... and with open, scientific minds, we played a DVD...

Are you all sitting down? Good. We played the King Crimson Deja VROOM DVD for over fifteen minutes with this configuration and not only did it sound good, but the Dolby Decoder reported ZERO errors... Did you all get that ok? ZERO, nadda, nihil, zippo, nothing, none... error-free."

Toxis

03-30-2005, 07:17 PM

What's next? All speakers sound the same, it's really just your mind playing tricks on you to make you THINK there's actually different sounds coming from each? Sounds like his logic...

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-30-2005, 07:25 PM

I'm not even going to read the whole thing...I'll just take the first and tenth lies:

1 - The Cable Lie - He argument is based on the assumption that the only thing that really matters is the signal, and that the signal doesn't know how its being transported. First, how a signal is transported has everything to do with 'what' is transported. Things like wire, sheilding, terminators, etc have a significant impact on 'what' it relayed from one end to the other. Would you rather drive across the country in a Cadilac or a Pinto? Sure, a Pinto 'may' get you there...but you're going to be better rested and in better overall condition if you have a comfortable trip. That's a stretch for a comparison, but is one nonetheless.

The argument that cables make no difference is a tired old argument that will never be settled. I did a blind test between my Audioquest, the Nordost Solars, and some crappy Monster stuff...a blind test. There was most asuredly a difference. If YOU can't hear it, then fine...but if I can nail it 10 out of 10 times during a blind test...then a difference DOES exist...plain and simple.

I think when we do the next Polk gathering in Sep, we should settle this debate. Ya'll can blindfold me, hook up different cables, and I'll guess the correct one EVERY time. If you can't hear a difference, then fine, but if 1 person (i.e. me) hears a difference, then you can't argue that a difference exists. Now as to whether those differences are significant or are to subtle for most to hear, and are worthy of cable upgrades...that's a different argument altogether...but I'm tired of the 'all cables are the same' crap...

2 - The Golden Ear Lie - His argument here is that no one has a golden ear, we all have the same hearing, just some people have training. And your point it???? So I have a golden ear, maybe I was born with it, maybe I did get it by training...who freakin' cares as long as I've got it!!! That's like saying "There aren't really any professional athletes, we're all born with that athletic ability, some people just chose to train and develop that ability'. WHAT??? Idiot...

By the way, its believed that all normal people are born with perfect pitch (you go to the piano and play any note or chord and I can identify it), but that most people lose that as they get older. That's why most people can learn music and develop perfect relative pitch (you play a middle C as a reference note, and then play another note and I can identify it because I know where it's at in relation to the middle C...counting half steps...).

I don't know if I have a 'golden ear' or not. I had horrible vision when I was a kid (blind in one eye, mostly in the second also, even with glasses) and I therefore had to develop my other senses to compensate. Hearing was the only one I developed to above normal abilities, and I do have really good hearing (far better than anyone I know) and have perfect pitch and am also very sensitive to room acoustics, rattlings, etc...enough that I can pass any of those blind tests everyone talks about...

I'm rambling...

I'm serious on the blind test at the next Polk gathering though...someone write this down and let's remember to do this at the next event...I'll happily be out 'test subject'

TheReaper

03-30-2005, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
...Would you rather drive across the country in a Cadilac or a Pinto? Sure, a Pinto 'may' get you there...but you're going to be better rested and in better overall condition if you have a comfortable trip. That's a stretch for a comparison, but is one nonetheless...
If the Cadillac is one of those "Seville diesels", I think I would rather drive my 1978 Mercury BobCat (Mercury's version of the Pinto).

PolkThug

03-30-2005, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
First, how a signal is transported has everything to do with 'what' is transported. Things like wire, sheilding, terminators, etc have a significant impact on 'what' it relayed from one end to the other.

Too bad in the home audio world this "significant impact" can't be measured.

Wish you lived closer, if you could pick your IC 10 outta 10 times, not only would you get free bbq, but also earn the nickname of DAREDEVIL. If not, you can still drink my beer and it would be fun anyway.

Regards,
PT

Loud & Clear

03-31-2005, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by Toxis
What's next? All speakers sound the same, it's really just your mind playing tricks on you to make you THINK there's actually different sounds coming from each? Sounds like his logic...

His article suggests that he feels otherwise about speakers, as he should.

I agree with, unc, that leaving out even and odd-ordered distortion made me question his objectivity.

Enjoyable article, and a pretty funny picture.

F1nut

03-31-2005, 03:33 AM

What a pant load! Just another crackpot. :rolleyes:

lomic

03-31-2005, 05:00 AM

Whew, I'm glad there were exactly 10 "Biggest Lies", say there had only actually been TWO - he'd, oh, I dunno - have to make the rest up to have a good article.

Good thing that didn't happen.

bikezappa

03-31-2005, 10:05 AM

Every thing in the article is true. It's just basic science. We all, me included, hate to admit we have been dupped.

I wish all you critics of the article would take the ABX test. I did and couldn't tell the differences. I must have bad ears.

Have you taken the ABX test?

Moving your head a few inches left or right can change what you hear when listening to music. It is easy to think that the $500 speaker wires were the result of the such a music change.

In EE EVERYTHING is a combintation of resistance, inductance and capacitance. The sum total of the three is called impedance. The impedance of inductance and capacitance depends on the frequency of the signal. Look up the formula for impedance and you will see that there is no negiligible capacitance or inductive impedance at audio frequencies in speaker wires. SIP.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of any thing but simple science. It's your money to spend.

Buy cables or music recordings.

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-31-2005, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by PolkThug
Too bad in the home audio world this "significant impact" can't be measured.

Wish you lived closer, if you could pick your IC 10 outta 10 times, not only would you get free bbq, but also earn the nickname of DAREDEVIL. If not, you can still drink my beer and it would be fun anyway.

Regards,
PT
Are you going to be at the next gathering? I'll bet you or anyone else that I can pick my IC out of a bunch 0 out of 10 or 1000 out of 1000 times (assuming that the lot is a groups of different ICs of course). I'll do you even one better, it doesn't even have to be my IC. You give me 5 ICs, let me listen to them all once to associate a sound with a given IC, and I'll be able to identify each correctly with 100% accuracy. I know because I've done this about a dozen times to prove to people that there is, in fact, a difference.

I'll wager whatever amount you're willing to bet that I can do this every time, without fail and 100% accurately. I really am dead serious about this...I REALLY want to do this at the next Polk meet.

BUT...there is 1 catch. When I am able to correctly identify the cables, you MUST admit that there is in fact a difference. This may be a difference that you can't hear, but if I can nail this thing 100 out of 100 times, then a difference must exist, no?

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-31-2005, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by bikezappa
Every thing in the article is true. It's just basic science. We all, me included, hate to admit we have been dupped.

I wish all you critics of the article would take the ABX test. I did and couldn't tell the differences. I must have bad ears.

Have you taken the ABX test?

Moving your head a few inches left or right can change what you hear when listening to music. It is easy to think that the $500 speaker wires were the result of the such a music change.

In EE EVERYTHING is a combintation of resistance, inductance and capacitance. The sum total of the three is called impedance. The impedance of inductance and capacitance depends on the frequency of the signal. Look up the formula for impedance and you will see that there is no negiligible capacitance or inductive impedance at audio frequencies in speaker wires. SIP.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of any thing but simple science. It's your money to spend.

Buy cables or music recordings.

See my posts in this thread. If you're at the gathering, I'll take your bet also...I'll wager any amount you're willing to bet.

I've done double-blind tests, dozens of times...there IS a difference!

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Are you going to be at the next gathering? I'll bet you or anyone else that I can pick my IC out of a bunch 0 out of 10 or 1000 out of 1000 times (assuming that the lot is a groups of different ICs of course). I'll do you even one better, it doesn't even have to be my IC. You give me 5 ICs, let me listen to them all once to associate a sound with a given IC, and I'll be able to identify each correctly with 100% accuracy. I know because I've done this about a dozen times to prove to people that there is, in fact, a difference.

I'll wager whatever amount you're willing to bet that I can do this every time, without fail and 100% accurately. I really am dead serious about this...I REALLY want to do this at the next Polk meet.

BUT...there is 1 catch. When I am able to correctly identify the cables, you MUST admit that there is in fact a difference. This may be a difference that you can't hear, but if I can nail this thing 100 out of 100 times, then a difference must exist, no?

Cool, I'm game! I want to believe, I really do! Can I run the experiment- 2 cables, 20 changes. Lets make this as easy as possible, I'll bring some crap patch cord and we will use whatever the "best" other cable is. Then we will try same experiment with the AR and "best" cables. If you can statistiaclly get both tests right: There is a difference. Only 1 correct: Can not tell the differnce between properly constructed interconnects.

Great idea...!

unc2701

03-31-2005, 11:25 AM

Damn! I want to watch! I'm on the fence, so I'm curious to see how this turns out. I'll even do the stats for free... Oh, and if I were you, I'd back off the 1000/1000 or 10/10 claim and just go for statistical significance- everyone goofs every now and then.

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 11:30 AM

Yup, I figured if he could do 15/20 twice, that's good enough for me.

I think it would be fun to "test" 5 or 6 people at the same time to get a bigger sample. If only one can do it, it says one thing (Got lucky, or there is a very minor difference and he has tremendous hearing), if all six make the cut, the difference is obvious.

My guess is CFrizz would test the best.

polkatese

03-31-2005, 11:35 AM

That would be entertaining!

If I have a crappy patch zip interconnect (that turn green in no time if exposed to the element), and a MIT S3 (which has the L-R-C Interface (the "box"), how can one argues that there is NO difference in sound?

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-31-2005, 11:36 AM

That sounds like a plan! We should have plenty of good cables to choose from if we're at Marks! :D

Just to clarify, I can't tell you which one is 'better', because that's subjective. But let me listen to each one once to associate the sound with the cable, and I'll pick 'em out as many times as you want. Oh yeah, and I assume this won't be an issue, but this has to be done on decent gear. It doesn't have to be high end or anything, I can do it every time with my system and all I've got is a Denon receiver/preamp, a Parasound HCA 1500 and some RTi70s. But we're not conducting this experiment on a bose wave radio or anything either.

We've definitely got to put some money on this deal though. I want all you anti-cable guys to put your money where your mouth is...I'll take any bet you can make. And no, this isn't some macho BS...I'd just like to have my trip up there paid for :D

bikezappa

03-31-2005, 11:36 AM

Great

Lets get the data.

A double blind test is the best because the person changing the cables doesn't know what wire is what. They are just labeled A and B.

I'd like to do the test also.

unc2701

03-31-2005, 11:37 AM

Give me a few minutes I'll work out what the statistical significance is on that. Usual if you can do somethign that would only happen randomly %5 of the time than you say he has significance.

PolkThug

03-31-2005, 11:39 AM

I would love to see Polkmaniac do this, that would be so cool. I can't be there personally, but if everyone sees you do this, I'll believe it.

Reminds me of the piano tuners we had back in grade school, they were both blind.

polkatese

03-31-2005, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
That sounds like a plan! We should have plenty of good cables to choose from if we're at Marks! :D

Just to clarify, I can't tell you which one is 'better', because that's subjective. But let me listen to each one once to associate the sound with the cable, and I'll pick 'em out as many times as you want. Oh yeah, and I assume this won't be an issue, but this has to be done on decent gear. It doesn't have to be high end or anything, I can do it every time with my system and all I've got is a Denon receiver/preamp, a Parasound HCA 1500 and some RTi70s. But we're not conducting this experiment on a bose wave radio or anything either.

We've definitely got to put some money on this deal though. I want all you anti-cable guys to put your money where your mouth is...I'll take any bet you can make. And no, this isn't some macho BS...I'd just like to have my trip up there paid for :D

Can I put my money on you? what's the odd? how many non-believers here? (the more the better)...let's do it! I'll paypal you the money...

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 11:42 AM

That's why you go with the extreme test. Just to establish that there is a difference. Once that becomes the baseline, you can fine tune it. ex: $50 IC's = $500 IC's bot $5 IC's <> $50 IC's and etc... I would suggest using the passive pre that I am bringing at the switchbox as it is shielded and has no power supply or processing involve. this should give a cleaner signal out. I'd suggest that the test cables be split off of the CDP as it has the lowest line voltage (easiest to interfere with) and requires only one split versus 2 for any other setup.

Each "testee" picks one song. The IC is changed every 30 seconds at random, based on a coin flip. Each person picks if they think it's the good or bad. Go through all the songs and see how well everyone did.

unc2701

03-31-2005, 11:45 AM

Oh and If I can make it there, I'll bring my bryston. They've got a rep as being the most analytical amps out there, so if a difference exists, you'd hear it on a bryston.

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 11:46 AM

Double blind would be a bit harder to pull off as someone would be staring at the switch box. Who would install the cables and not tell anyone?

I agree with PM-Better is totally subjective. Cable "A" would always be defined as the first played.

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-31-2005, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Yup, I figured if he could do 15/20 twice, that's good enough for me.

I think it would be fun to "test" 5 or 6 people at the same time to get a bigger sample. If only one can do it, it says one thing (Got lucky, or there is a very minor difference and he has tremendous hearing), if all six make the cut, the difference is obvious.

My guess is CFrizz would test the best.
Two things:

1 - It'll be 20/20...guaranteed. Can you hear the difference between a set of good Polks and a pair of crappy Bose? I bet you can. Could you identify each correctly 20/20 times? I bet you can. The difference with cables is that significant and that easy to identify for me. Hell, I've even compared cables by the same company (did a side-by-side with some AQ Sidewinder and Copperhead cables) and been correct 100% of the time. If I only get it 19/20 times...then fine, statistics will support the theory that there is a difference...but I still lose the bet.

2 - You can test other people, as many as you want...that's fine. But, when I am a perfect 20/20, I don't want to hear anything about being lucky or any of that stuff (I'm saying this now because you've already mentioned it in your post). IF there's still doubt after a 20/20 success, then we'll do more until there is no doubt.

Keep in mind, I'm not setting out to prove that there is a BIG difference in cables or that said difference is worth x amount of money...that's subjective to your hearing and your budget. My only goal is to dispell the myth that there is no difference in cables...

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by unc2701
Oh and If I can make it there, I'll bring my bryston. They've got a rep as being the most analytical amps out there, so if a difference exists, you'd hear it on a bryston.

That would be nice, but Doro's BBQ amp has a noise floor that is non-existant it's so low. We were cranking some tunes and during quiet passages, nothing was heard...

Speakers and CDP will be the hardest things to agree on IMHO

PolkThug

03-31-2005, 11:49 AM

Somebody has to film this and make a Polkumentary.

:D

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Polkmaniac

2 - You can test other people, as many as you want...that's fine. But, when I am a perfect 20/20, I don't want to hear anything about being lucky or any of that stuff (I'm saying this now because you've already mentioned it in your post). IF there's still doubt after a 20/20 success, then we'll do more until there is no doubt.

20/20 would be beyond lucky. Testing 6 people and having a one guess 4 or 5 more times could be lucky. 20/20 not happening. Remember, in this test even if you get every question wrong, you win since you did successfully ID the wires. Stats would say that out of 6 people, the range would be 10-13 correct at random chance, so having one at 15 could still be considered random chance. 20/20, no way.

my goal is similar to yours. Prove that at least someone, somewhere can tell the difference.

I would prefer to have the rules set before the test. Because, as you said, if it is a "there is a difference" then someone might claime that one person got "lucky". If there isn't a difference, then I don't want to have some self-proclaimed golden ear saying that our equipment was sufficient.

unc2701

03-31-2005, 11:52 AM

you don't want a coin flip- randomized block designs come out way ahead & guarantee ballance.

I'd go with CDP-> benchmark DAC->tested IC's->Amp->speakers

Only speakers are in room with subject, person switching IC's is in another room and never in view of subject. play the same 30 secs of CD each time, with equal length pause between each playing.

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-31-2005, 11:53 AM

Man, I'm so excited! I'm definitely glad now that we've pushed this thing back to September, because April looks like crap for me.

And I definitely have to get some type of award for this!

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by unc2701
you don't want a coin flip- randomized block designs come out way ahead & guarantee ballance.

I'd go with CDP-> benchmark DAC->tested IC's->Amp->speakers

Only speakers are in room with subject, person switching IC's is in another room and never in view of subject. play the same 30 secs of CD each time, with equal length pause between each playing.

Only issue is the room, that's the problem. I'm sure mark doesn't want to put holes in his walls. You also missed the switchbox. I'd put it between the IC's and amp. CDP to DAC is in the digital domain and will have not interference.

The reason I don't want to have a preconcieved order on the changes is that it is recorded ahead of time and provides oppurtunity for cheating. Even if it comes out 13 A and 7 B, that's fine for this test. Same 30 seconds. Gack! I agree that would be ideal, but get really old for the tester.

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-31-2005, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by unc2701
you don't want a coin flip- randomized block designs come out way ahead & guarantee ballance.

I'd go with CDP-> benchmark DAC->tested IC's->Amp->speakers

Only speakers are in room with subject, person switching IC's is in another room and never in view of subject. play the same 30 secs of CD each time, with equal length pause between each playing.

I think we may be making this too hard. Here's how it should work:

1 - Give me about a minute to listen to each pair of ICs before we start the test
2 - Put me and one other person in the room with the rig - and blindfold me (as long as that other person isn't Mark because he's always talking about taking his clothes off:D )
3 - That person takes a pair of ICs, plugs them in, and starts the music
4 - I tell you which pair of ICs they are
5 - We repeat this process, changing ICs at ramdon until everyone is satisfied that this isn't luck and that, statistically, there isn't a difference.
6 - Just so there's no cheating, the persom can hold up the IC for everyone else to see...so we all know which IC is in the player and there is no doubt.

If all you 'stats' guys wanna do it another way...then fine by me, this way just seems easiest and the most foolproof.

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 12:01 PM

I was just thinking the changer would be behind the speakers and a blinder would be between the person being tested and the switchbox

unc2701

03-31-2005, 01:10 PM

I do this for a living (ok, with pharmaceuticals instead of IC's), so here's the stats for 20 tries:

Assuming that he's FOS and can't tell a difference, the probability of him guessing correctly 5 times or less is about 2.1% and the probability of him guessing 15 times or greater is 2.1%. So, by pure dumb luck, he'll prove us wrong 4.2% of the time... this is the usual "statistical significance" cut point for this particular N.

On the other hand, if he can tell the difference 99.9% of the time, the probablilty of him getting ANY wrong out of 20 is 2.0%... So really, we can move our cut points up to, say >=17 and <=3, to cut back on his dumb luck chances, without really infringing on his claim.

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 01:31 PM

Alright, sounds good.

6-14- no Difference
4,5 or 15,16 - Inconclusive
1-3 or 17-20 Conclusive difference.

I think we have a ballgame, assuming Doro allows us to pull this off in one of his rooms...

unc2701

03-31-2005, 01:39 PM

I'd also recommend that cables are "switched" or disconnected everytime, even if you have back-to-back randomiztion to use the same IC. Otherwise, he'll know that the cable's haven't been swapped which means you don't have independent trials, which screws everything. Ideally the only person in the room should be the subject... people's reactions could bias it.

Wow, we should write a protocol & publish this, regardless of outcome.

AsSiMiLaTeD

03-31-2005, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by unc2701
I do this for a living (ok, with pharmaceuticals instead of IC's):

Funny...I'm in the PBM industry...work for Caremark as a project manager...

And yes, of course we'll switch the cables on every run...or else I'd 'know' which one I was listening to.

Man, you guys are going overboard with this 'if he gets 17 out of 20 its conclusive' or whatever stuff...you're wasting your time because I'll get all 20. In my mind, if I don't score a perfect 20/20, then there's still some doubt and room for debate...but that won't happen.

I doubt many people even read far enough in this thread to see what we're doing, so I'm going to create a new thread specifically about this test.

James, I'm listing you as the one who'll be setting all this up.

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by unc2701
I'd also recommend that cables are "switched" or disconnected everytime, even if you have back-to-back randomiztion to use the same IC. Otherwise, he'll know that the cable's haven't been swapped which means you don't have independent trials, which screws everything. Ideally the only person in the room should be the subject... people's reactions could bias it.

Wow, we should write a protocol & publish this, regardless of outcome.

No way, that's the point of the passive pre. No processing and not cable changing. Back to backs would be 1 second apart. We aren't leaving the "accoustic memory is short" hole in this test...

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
In my mind, if I don't score a perfect 20/20, then there's still some doubt and room for debate...but that won't happen.

I doubt many people even read far enough in this thread to see what we're doing, so I'm going to create a new thread specifically about this test.

James, I'm listing you as the one who'll be setting all this up.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

As for 20/20, have you smelled Russ's farts? They're so damn strong that they might affect your hearing... :)

unc2701

03-31-2005, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
No way, that's the point of the passive pre. No processing and not cable changing. Back to backs would be 1 second apart. We aren't leaving the "accoustic memory is short" hole in this test...

Ok, that's fine, but we need to always "switch" so if IC1 is on input A and and IC2 is on input B and input C is empty, we always switch to input C before going to the next trial. So if it goes IC1, IC1, IC2, we'd have input A (30 secs), input c (1 sec) input A (30 secs), input C (1 sec), input B (30 secs). This prevents cross contamination.

2+2

03-31-2005, 02:34 PM

Man Polkmanic, you are elevating our expectations....I dont think I can hear distinctions between interconnects unless I can sit with them for a few minutes with familiar music so that I know what to listen for.......I'm rooting for ya.....:D

jdhdiggs

03-31-2005, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by unc2701
Ok, that's fine, but we need to always "switch" so if IC1 is on input A and and IC2 is on input B and input C is empty, we always switch to input C before going to the next trial. So if it goes IC1, IC1, IC2, we'd have input A (30 secs), input c (1 sec) input A (30 secs), input C (1 sec), input B (30 secs). This prevents cross contamination.

That's what I was planning. Always reset so that if you do go back to the same cable, all "clicks and whirs" won't give away the switch.

John K.

03-31-2005, 10:11 PM

Okay, I read the linked article. The points made appear to be essentially correct and simply represent what we've learned(at least those of us willing to learn)from applying basic principles of audio engineering which have been well-known for years and in some cases decades. The use of the term "lies", instead of for example "myths", might be questioned since although sellers and others who know better sometimes deliberately misstate the facts, many sincerely believe these things.

As to "golden ears" who often incessantly repeat the silly mantra of "just trust your ears", the irony is that when they for the first time have to actually trust them alone, i.e. in a blind test where all variables have been closely controlled, their ears of gold seem to undergo a sort of reverse-transmutation and are miraculously turned into tin. The results of such a test using a large number of subjects and samples follow the usual bell-shaped curve, with a few very low or very high results by chance, but averaging close to the 50% result from a random process.

The things that make a difference in audio are the quality of the original recording process, together with the mixing and mastering applied to it, the quality of the speakers and the effects of the listening room acoustics. These are what we should concentrate on, not waste our time and money about things(e.g. players , receiver/amps and wires)which nearly all provide audibly flawless reproduction when operated as designed.

Zero

03-31-2005, 10:28 PM

My speaker wire says Im pretty.

bikezappa

03-31-2005, 10:39 PM

John K.

I agree with everything you so clearly put.

I might add Tuners to the list of items worthy of testing. A great tuna that can play the dynamic range of an uncompressed NPR FM station is a joy. Jazz and classical are best. Old tuners appear to work the best.

It's all about the music.

Music is the best.

Peter

F1nut

03-31-2005, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by John K.

These are what we should concentrate on, not waste our time and money about things(e.g. players , receiver/amps and wires)which nearly all provide audibly flawless reproduction when operated as designed.

Well, that statement proves without a doubt that you don't know a damn thing about audio equipment and that YOU ARE A CRACKPOT TROLL!!!

Come over here any time, bring your POS gear with you and I'll back up every word I've ever said about you.

dragon1952

04-01-2005, 12:18 AM

I'd like to dispute the misconception that everyones hearing is the same. Why should hearing be the same when vision and taste aren't? What's so special about hearing? My wife could hear a song with words a million times but would fail to recognize the same song as an instrumental no matter how many times she heard it. There's hearing and then there's listening comprehension.....two different things. Just like vision. There's seeing and then there's comprehending what you see. My daughter has 20/20 vision yet when she gets done in the kitchen I can find many things she missed like drawers and cupboard doors left partially open, potholders left out, crumbs on the counter, grease on the stove. If I asked her to come back and look around she misses every one. To hear differences in cables it doesn't matter how great your hearing is . It's a matter of listening comprehension. To some people music is just background noise. They couldn't tell the difference between a boom box and a high-end system. That doesn't mean they don't have equal 'hearing'. You could be tone deaf and have great hearing. My wife, as an example again, can't tell a guitar from an organ but she can hear just as well as I can. She absolutely cannot distinguish instruments from one another. So why is it so hard to believe that different people have different listening comprehensions. It has nothing to do with your score on the hearing test.

2+2

04-01-2005, 10:38 AM

dragon, I wholeheartedly agree with you except to add that vision it self varies...not every one has 20/20..some people have better, some worse....same with hearing...regardless of comprehension......and for all the naysayers, just because you cant hear it doesnt mean the sound difference is not there. I told my wife yestday about these cable discussions and she says "how can one not hear the difference?" and that hearing a difference is actually a curse cuz we have to spend more money......;)

dragon1952

04-01-2005, 11:52 AM

Well the point I was trying to make about vision is that you can have 20/20 vision and still not have very good 'vision comprehension'. Same with hearing....yeah you may have 100 people with identical hearing test scores but that doesn't mean they all have the same 'hearing comprehension' or the ability or desire to detect nuances in a musical recording.
Some people listen to a song as a whole. They don't necessarily disect it and listen to various parts. I like to sometimes totally concentrate on a bass line or a background instrument etc, and when you do this alot, especially the same track over and over you can immediately detect a difference a cable might make. If you tend to just listen to the recording as a whole and not focus on one particular thing it is not that easy to detect a subtle difference, generally speaking and IMHO.

Mazeroth

04-01-2005, 02:16 PM

If you guys are going to go all out on this test, I think you should throw another one in for fun. Not to see if you can distinguish between cables, but rather which one you prefer. Maybe have a four wire lineup. Do an A/B and have the listener pick which sounds better. Then do a C/D and let the listener pick. Then do an X/Y with the two winners, and a 1/2 with the two losers. This will give you a 1-2-3-4 order list of which they preferred. Add up all the scores and you'll see which people preferred. Use something like:

Coat hanger
16 gauge wire, cut into 5 pieces, soldered together
14 gauge Home Depot wire
Expensive wire

Maybe just use 2 crappy and 2 good ones, but make sure the crappy speaker wires are REALLY crappy!

You can do the same for interconnects. Use 2 really good ones and 2 crappy ones. Maybe for one of the crappy ones use 50 cent RCA brand 24 gauge and for the other I can whip up a pair utilizing phone cable or something. Should be fun!