Finally, an end to the cable debate!

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

If you're interested, read the thread linked to below. I'm not going to spell everything out again here, but I just wanted to make everyone aware.

I'm tired of all the talk about cables not being different and all that garbage. Therefore, at the next Polk gathering, I am going to prove beyond doubt that there are differences in sound between different cables by doing a blind test.

Read THIS thread for the details (http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=281892#post281892).

Mark, are you gonna put together any type of agenda for this meeting, or is it more informal? I want to make sure that we don't lose sight of this and forget about it. That's also why I'm creating the separate thread - to draw more attention to it.

Two things that this test is not intended to prove:

1 - That there is a LARGE difference in sound quality between cables. I've done this before, and I know for 100% certain that I can hear it. If you can't hear it, that's your issue, not mine.

2 - That one cable is better than the other. 'Better' is completely subjective. I'll prove to you that there is indeed a difference in sound...which one you or I like better isn't the debate.

[jdhdiggs]

My proposal:

1). Use a shielded splitter at the first outpout that becomes analog (Out of the CDP or DAC) with each cable coming to a shielded passive pre-amp

2). Use each cable as an "in" on the pre. The passive is used as there is no chance of processing differences or internally generated electrical hum

3). High quality interconnects will connect to the amp. The amp will be SS.

4). Highest quality speaker cables will be used to the speakers.

5). For speakers, I would avoid SDA, Maggie, Horn, or Ported designs. At this point, I would suggest sealed 2-way monitors. If the person being tested wants a beefier speaker, a 2.5 way sealed should be used

6). Listener gets to pick the tracks and portion of the track. Each section of music will be repeated at least 8 times and last until the listener wants to repeat or 30 seconds has expired. The switch will stop the music, rewind, and change cables. This should take less than 2 seconds.

At least 4 diffferent tracks would be used.

If more than one person is being tested at the same time, 30 seconds will be used each time.

The IC's to be tested will include low grade patch cord and any other IC of the listeners choice.

As stated, this is not to say what is better or how big of a difference, but rather state that there is a difference.

How's that?

[RuSsMaN]

Well, I for one will not be attending any more Polk gatherings. The cable debate is endless, those that believe, believe, those that don't, don't.

I for one have no interest is proving anyone right or wrong, based on a few limited components at a gathering. I love how you guys are trying to be scientific, but end up clusterfucking the whole thing. Shielded splitter, you're fucking hilarious.

The whole thing is pushing me in another direction, other than Club Polk. Tired head BIG time.

[jdhdiggs]

Thanks for the suggestions...

Some people might find this fun, informative, and interesting. no one is forcing you to read it. No one is forcing you to participate. Chill out, drink some beer and have some fun...

[F1nut]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
The cable debate is endless, those that believe, believe, those that don't, don't.



AMEN!!!

[RuSsMaN]

Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?

Don't even bother typing a response, unless it's something other than 'well, if they make a difference, it should be noticeable on any combo of gear' response. That card is so old and worn out.

Nevermind, I'm done with the subject.

[unc2701]

Yeah, but at least Polkmaniac is putting his balls on the line. And if he can tell on the proposed rig, I'll get my ass off the fence and into the "cables matter" field. I have an open mind. And he said he'd be willing to use whatever gear, so if he agrees to it, then great.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?

Don't even bother typing a response, unless it's something other than 'well, if they make a difference, it should be noticeable on any combo of gear' response. That card is so old and worn out.

Nevermind, I'm done with the subject.

Let's all call each other names, thats pretty cool.:rolleyes:

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?

No problem, PM, you up for it this way instead? The other set-up was for for multiple people at the same time since multiple people have expressed an interest in trying it out.

PM, if you want to do this, what's your current rig and I'll start working on replicating it up here, even if it's at my house.

Let me add this to the whole conversation: for every person who "knows" it makes a difference, there are probably 10 or twenty more that "don't know". Some of these people buy because they feel they should, there are others sitting on the fence because they don't know... If they can experience the difference themselves, or see that someone else can, without a doubt, then maybe this would give them that push that the cable demo program can't.

Not everyone makes six figures on this board so spending $100 on a wire that may or may not make a difference is difficult to justify without some proof beyond "try it, it's obvious" statements that so many throw around.

If you want to avoid CP and CP gatherings because some people are trying to find their own truths, that's your own ballgame. You would be missed though.

[2+2]

Russman, I think those who believe simply can hear the differences because the difference is there..
....those who don't believe honestly and truely cannot hear the differences and that is why they are so adamant about there being no difference. This again goes to my thought about a half colorblind person needing corrective lenses commenting on not seeing much differences in color and resolution of different TVs....my point being that no two ears are alike...much like vision is not and we should not expect everyone to hear the differences....especially when the differences are relatively subtle.
(BTW I am partially color blind so no offense).

[unc2701]

Originally posted by 2+2
....those who don't believe honestly and truely cannot hear the differences and that is why they are so adamant about there being no difference.

Actually, I think I hear a difference, but I also know ALL about bias and 50 ways to screw a test. I have self doubt, so I want to set up a DB test that'll convince me that it's not just bias (I don't have the gear to do a true ABX on myself). The "not sure"/ "no difference" crowd is ready to see a difference... please, show us you can do it. PolkManiac is willing to do that, good for him.

I think we're all willing to let you set the parameters of the test so long as blinding is maintained, so if you got any proposals, we want to hear them.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by 2+2
....those who don't believe honestly and truely cannot hear the differences and that is why they are so adamant about there being no difference.

My computer is in this camp, no speakers or ears in these graphs, just a looped connection:
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27287

[jdhdiggs]

PT, I would not go that far yet. The fact that the peaks measure out isn't conclusive. You need to add some time axis to make it more accurate. That way you can take any differences in transients if they exist. The only problem then would be how do you compare the results to eachother...

[unc2701]

Actually, it's a logical problem. It is impossible to prove no difference (you can't win). However, we can say that as yet, no one has proved that there is a difference. So, basically the "cables matter" crowd needs to find just one person who can consistantly distinguish normalized cables in a double blind test.

As a side note, I'm amused that many of these people claim that you cannot hear things which do measurably change the electrical properties of the cables (doubling length doubles resistance; coiling cable changes inductance; etc), yet claim they can distinguish two electrically identical cables.

Again, I think I do hear a difference, but my logical side tells me I'm full of shit.

[Early B.]

Russ is right -- it's a dead issue. These tests have been done before and no real conclusions have been drawn. Waste of time. It's too subjective an issue, so it's impossible to prove anything.

Edit: unc - we posted at the same time and said basically the same thing. Weird.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Geez Russ, having a bad day?

James, I don't care how you set it up. We can use any rig as long as it's decent.

I did this test at the Tweeter up here on a Yamaha receiver and RTi8 towers and was correct 10/10 times...whatever you want to use is fine by me.

Again, I think we're digressing a bit. We're not talking about if everyone can hear a difference or if $1K cables are worth it...we're talking about if there is in fact a difference. I don't care if we test a thousand people and I'm the only one to hear it. If I hear it 100 out of 100 times with a success rate of 100%, then it must in fact exists...END of STORY...no one in their logical mind can argue with that result...

[unc2701]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
If I hear it 100 out of 100 times with a success rate of 100%, then it must in fact exists...END of STORY...no one in their logical mind can argue with that result...

Yeah, all the no diff/ not sure crowd is with you there... talk to your buddies in the "difference" crowd, 'cause it sounds like you're getting a no confidence vote from them.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
You need to add some time axis to make it more accurate.

Exactly, capture all the detail! I have the software to do this too (although it may be expired now) You can break up a second into X number of slices.

Its a little harder to capture, because as you can imagine, the rate at which the data scrolls up the screen is extremely fast.

I can say with confidence that the max spl peaks are not very different from the cables I have tested.

Regards,
PT

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Early B.
Russ is right -- it's a dead issue. These tests have been done before and no real conclusions have been drawn. Waste of time. It's too subjective an issue, so it's impossible to prove anything.

I refuse to let that statement go without rebuttal. Tell me this: If I can listen and distinguish between two ICs 10 out of 10 or 100 out of 100 times without one failure...how does that NOT prove that there is a difference??

I don't know if this test has ever been done officially, but it does PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that there is a difference in wire. Your logic is flawed if you believe otherwise.

You think it's a dead issue or aren't interested...thats fine. But this is a debate that still rages heavily today, and I think we can put at least one aspect to rest with this test.

[phuz]

I love how you guys are trying to be scientific, but end up clusterfucking the whole thing. Shielded splitter, you're fucking hilarious.

BAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Forget the cable crap. The horse is dead, burried, and decomposing. Read a book about Schrodingers cat.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
I did this test at the Tweeter up here on a Yamaha receiver and RTi8 towers and was correct 10/10 times...whatever you want to use is fine by me.

I'm not sure if I should be envious or glad I don't hear a difference. So, what interconnects do you use now?

Also, do you think its possible you could train someone how to listen better. (Kind of like how I train people at work how to be critical of video displays)

Regards,
PT

Kudos again, for stepping up to the plate.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by unc2701
Yeah, all the no diff/ not sure crowd is with you there... talk to your buddies in the "difference" crowd, 'cause it sounds like you're getting a no confidence vote from them.
I can see that...I'm sure they're nervous that I'm FOS and that this may hurt their (our) position that there does exist a difference in cables.

Fair enough, I shall have their confidence in due time.

Plus it sounds like some people (Russ, Early B, more I'm sure) just don't give a rats ass. That's fine and they're perfectly entitled to their apathy. However, I'm dead set on disproving this particular accusation.

[unc2701]

Come to think of it, I'm going to join the Rat's ass crowd.

Ok let say you buy the world's most badass cables and run them against your old ones:
1) You hear no diff. Fuck it, dude, your stereo is perfect to you.
2) You hear a diffence, but you're full of shit, it's just bias. Fuck it, if it sounds better to you, you got your money's worth.
3) You hear a difference and there is, in truth, a difference. Again, you got your money's worth.

Yeah, so I'm going to go jerk off to a picture of some Kimbers... but I'll hate myself in the morning.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by PolkThug
I'm not sure if I should be envious or glad I don't hear a difference. So, what interconnects do you use now?

Also, do you think its possible you could train someone how to listen better. (Kind of like how I train people at work how to be critical of video displays)

Regards,
PT

Kudos again, for stepping up to the plate.
I use Audioquest DiamondBacks. I'm not saying they're the best, they are just the ones that I prefer the most in my price range. I have yet to hear Signal Cable though.

And also, I'm not claiming to be an expert on cables...not even close. There are guys on here that have probably heard more cables than I know exist...but I CAN tell the difference between them...

As to your question of training a person to hear that...I'm really not sure. Can people be trained to hear 'better' and to hear certain things? Sure they can. It's called Ear Training, and every college that I'm aware of has it as a required part of their music program, usually at least a couple years' worth. Now, can I train someone to hear the differences in cable...I really don't know and have never tried. Granted that their ears are good enough, I suppose so, because I'd just be teaching them what to listen for. But if their ears aren't sensitive enough, then I can 'teach' them what to listen for, but they'd never be able to 'learn' it. For instance, I have pretty bad vision, even today. Sure you could teach me about macroblocking and the chroma bug...but if I can't see well enough to 'see' it, then I'll never get it...if that makes sense.

For the record, I've never met anyone who has near as good ears as I do. I know a couple other people with perfect pitch, but no one with near the sensitivity as I have. I expect that, given the pool of individuals we have here, we'll find another person or two, if not more, that also have excellent and sensitive hearing. We shall see.

[jdhdiggs]

It sounds like they care, otherwise they wouldn't read it or post. I don't car about the CA stuff, so I don't post there. That simple...

I'm in UNC's camp. I think I've heard differences, but I was expecting and wanting to. I hope we can do this and PM does what he claims.

If there are differences, they certainly aren't as night and day as tubes/ss, speakers, or sources.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by unc2701
Come to think of it, I'm going to join the Rat's ass crowd.

Ok let say you buy the world's most badass cables and run them against your old ones:
1) You hear no diff. Fuck it, dude, your stereo is perfect to you.
2) You hear a diffence, but you're full of shit, it's just bias. Fuck it, if it sounds better to you, you got your money's worth.
3) You hear a difference and there is, in truth, a difference. Again, you got your money's worth.

Yeah, so I'm going to go jerk off to a picture of some Kimbers... but I'll hate myself in the morning.
I could not agree with you more. That is a perfect way to think of things. However, I'm one of those people who just won't let it go. If the statement was "Well, there's not much of a difference" or "WE can't hear a difference" or "any minute difference isn't worth your money"...then fine, you've stated your opinion and that's fine.

But to say something like "IT's scientific fact, there is NO difference, if you think there's a difference, then you're wrong, you're a fool for spending your money". Well, that's just wrong and inaccurate and I'm set on proving that...

[madmax]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?


Russ has brought up something here that most people dismiss. You must be familiar with the sound of a system over time and material. I have thought about this many times but wasn't in the mood to get into it.

I went to F1's to get a good demo and it took about an hour to comprehend and adjust to the sound of the room acoustics, a few more hours to become one with the equipment and about 4 more to play enough material to really understand many of the finer characteristics. Early on we switched to some other cables and I could hear the difference and told him exactly the same thing he thought but that was because the cables were dramaticly different. Same brand but very different characteristics. He kept switching them around and since they looked the same I was afraid he would catch me making the wrong choice but after a few times I gained confidence because there were many differences.

Any one who thinks they can hear one, hear the other then do an a-b test in less than several hours to a day is claiming to be more of a listener than they probably are. Lots of problems crop up because the average person does not know what to listen for or even how to listen as far as that goes.

madmax

[dorokusai]

PM - Sorry, I naturally skipped the thread due to the topic. I'm more than willing to have a simple rig setup so that easy changes can occur. We'll run double blind testing and let it ride.

This debate has been going on forever....long before Polk Thug and his magical software....long before the Polkie's with EE degrees....etc etc.

It's not at all a no confidence vote as I simply don't care what anyone thinks about what I hear on my gear. Why should I? Isn't that logical? I certainly relish compliments, constructive criticism and/or negative comments but in the end....the rig is the rig, nothing more nothing less.

I buy my gear based on my own research, experience and demo....I don't ask anyone, on any forum what they think I should buy....problem solved.

[jdhdiggs]

Thanks Mark! :)

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by madmax
Any one who thinks they can hear one, hear the other then do an a-b test in less than several hours to a day is claiming to be more of a listener than they probably are.
Well I guess we'll find out in September...:D

You give me a couple minutes with each cable on said gear, and I'll be ready to go...each cable will have it's own unique sound...all I need is a couple minutes to figure out what that is...

[shack]

I certainly didn't start this debate, but I may be somewhat responsible for the latest reincarnation (well maybe the 10 Audio Lies got it started and my speaker cables arriving was coincidence). My point was I heard the effects of burn in, or lack thereof and not necessarily the difference in cables (which I also agree with due to my own experience). If you recall, my comments about the whole thing was that I did not care what anyone else said, did, replied etc... I was simply reporting what I heard. Not that the discussions haven't been entertaining...but bottom line is it just doesn't matter. I am very much like Doro on this one. I have never asked anyone about how something sounds before I purchase it. My experience with the gear is all that matters. I didn't ask for any discussion, and if no one had posted that would have been ok. If PM wants to do his thing at the PF...it's all good...but it will have no effect on what I believe. This isn't a matter of non-support. If he is 1,000 for 1,000 of if he is 0 for 100 my views will not change and it will not reinforce my belief or raise doubts either way.

[madmax]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Well I guess we'll find out in September...:D

You give me a couple minutes with each cable on said gear, and I'll be ready to go...each cable will have it's own unique sound...all I need is a couple minutes to figure out what that is...

You go girl. :D

BTW, I just happen to know cables sound different. You better watch what equipment they get hooked up to. Some equipment the cables make no difference whatsoever. Better stick to tubes for this contest. :)

madmax

[hoosier21]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Well I guess we'll find out in September...:D

or October or November....

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Well, I for one will not be attending any more Polk gatherings.

Russ isn't going, less competition for the hot chicks that will be there, chicks go crazy for the big headed man from Texas, second only to a beer bellied man from Georgia, so I will be in like Flint, Mark there will be some hot chicks there right?

[unc2701]

Originally posted by madmax
Better stick to tubes for this contest. :)

Tubes??? really? In my experience tubes have been way more forgiving, but that was more in terms of speakers instead of IC's. I think I'd want the harshest SS gear you could find.

[jdhdiggs]

New idea, let PM pick the equipment, anyone else who wants to be part of this can and until it's done, we can just drop the bickering since everyone already seems to "know" the answer.

[jcaut]

I shouldn't even comment on this because of my lack of experience one way or the other, but I can't resist.

I personally have never heard any difference in cables (I'm using that to mean "interconnects" here, not speaker wire or power cables) . I've never really tried or wanted to hear any difference in cables. I thought about getting involved in the cable swap program because I think that's a great idea, but honestly most of the cables cost more than I feel like I would realisticly be willing to spend on them, and if I DID hear a difference-- well, then here we go. So my position has been: Yes, different interconnects probably sound different, even if there's no scientific reason for it. Maybe I can't hear the difference; Maybe my equipment is not good enough to hear the difference; Maybe I don't WANT to hear a difference, because I'm really pretty satisfied with what I'm hearing now.

I'm not actually the dumbass that I may come across as sometimes-- The scientific side of me tells me that the flow of an electrical signal through a cable is a basic, well-understood concept, and that, at the frequencies in the audio spectrum and lengths we're talking about, any difference between one wire and another should be incredibly small, certainly not measurable. As a human being though, I know that just because something can't be measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I believe that hearing can be more sensitive than any instrument for measuring. Moreover, there are individuals whose opinions I value and trust, who have much more experience with this sort of thing than I do, not to mention much better audio equipment with which to hear the differences-- that feel strongly that cables DO make a difference. That in itself has been good enough for me, so far.

I see nothing wrong with trying to set up the experiment, as described above. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to be there in person (pending confirmation on the hot chicks :D), but I'm very interested in hearing the results. I must say that I will be VERY impressed if Polkmaniac, or anyone else, is able to pick out interconnects with 100% success. That would prove the point, as far as I'm concerned. If he can't, then that would put me right back on the fence, where I've been for at least the past 4 years.

Jason

And I'm sorry for adding to the pile: I just had a couple of things I wanted to say and didn't know where to put it.

[unc2701]

Mitch Hedberg (comedian) apparently died last night and I'd like to offer this quote, which seems appropriate:

"Because of [dropping] acid, I know now that butter is way better than margarine. I saw through the bullshit."

RIP.

[dorokusai]

I will ensure that a tube and SS rig be available for the demo....both of which will most likely be integrated amplifiers to ease signal path changes. The source will be identical for either rig.

Does that make you freaks happy?

[jdhdiggs]

Now your going to have the time delay thing going and accoustic memory is so short.... It will never end Mark, never. I'll go ahead and do this experiment just for fun, but someone will always find a hole in it to justify their position (for or against).

After reading the "difference" camps comments, if you need to spend hours with a system and a special amp to here the difference between a free patch cord or TOTL MIT's, well then I got better things to spend my dough on, even if there is a proven difference. Doro and PM are the only one's giving me anything to go the other way.

I mean, we are not talking about comparing different TOTL cables in Jesse's setup, we're talking about as far different as we can get as far as quality on the cables as we can get...

It would be even better if we could find a very "specific" sounding cable, if there is souch a thing.

Anyway, this should be fun either way. Have a great night all! :)

[madmax]

A bunch of the cables making the rounds in the cable shootout club (or whatever it is called) could be collected.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
After reading the "difference" camps comments, if you need to spend hours with a system and a special amp to here the difference between a free patch cord or TOTL MIT's, well then I got better things to spend my dough on, even if there is a proven difference. Doro and PM are the only one's giving me anything to go the other way.

But even if it did take me hours of listening before the tests...as long as I'm accurate...there's still a difference. It may not be enough of a difference for you to justify spending the cash on, but remember that's not what this is about anyway. We're just going to prove that there's a difference...how much of a difference and how much one should justify to spend for the extra diff. is out of scope for this particular test, because that gets into the subjective.

I just want to be clear...there is NOTHING subjective about this blind test...this test is completely conclusive. Afterwards, there shouldn't be any discussion about whether there's a difference in wires. You can discus how much of a difference there is and what's 'better' all day long. And after the test I don't want to hear everyone poking holes in the outcome and coming up with excuses and to why it doesn't prove anything. If you don't think this test is foolproof, then let's hear it NOW, not after the fact.
...

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by dorokusai
I will ensure that a tube and SS rig be available for the demo....both of which will most likely be integrated amplifiers to ease signal path changes. The source will be identical for either rig.

Does that make you freaks happy?
I is happy:D

[madmax]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
if you need to spend hours with a system and a special amp to here the difference between a free patch cord or TOTL MIT's, well then I got better things to spend my dough on, even if there is a proven difference.

Actually the comments I made regarded a $900 VS $1500? pair. I guess you can hear some differences quickly but I wouldn't pick out the better sounding one that way. I certainly couldn't pick out which cable was which in a short time either without memorizing several characteristics and putting them with a name. But just different? I guess, depending on the cables.

madmax

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Does anyone have a video camera that we can use to tape this? I want to document this very well. I think it would be cool to send the results to someone like Streophile magazine (or whoever is good and reputable) to show our results. Maybe we can get someone to sponsor an 'official' test in a lab or something...

[Frank Z]

This is worse than a political debate. If you hear a difference, and it's an improvement, Great!! More power to ya.

If you don't hear a difference, Great!! More power to ya.

What hell is the difference? Why get so worked up over something like this? It's only sound.:rolleyes: I've given up debating this subject because I've wised up and realized that no one needs to have the same opinion that I do, too bad more people don't look at it the same way.

I promise that I will not make fun of or bash anyone that believes in high end cables/wire provided that these same folks show the same restraint.

[2+2]

Polkmanic, I like your style....take no prisoners....must be from TX!!:D :D ;)
As to sponsors....uhum...what about Polk Audio? Are you listening Admin?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by madmax
I certainly couldn't pick out which cable was which in a short time either without memorizing several characteristics and putting them with a name.
madmax
BINGO! That's exactly what I'm talking about doing. I'm not going to tell you which is better because we may not agree on what is better...I'm just proving there's a difference.

max, from what you're saying, it sounds like you can do the same thing as I...and I suspect that alot of the rest of you hardcore guys can do the same...I just happened to be the first one to volunteer...

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Frank, I see your point...really I do.

I'm just one of those people who thinks that everyone should know the truth and have correct information...simple as that. I just can't stand it when people around me are wrong when I KNOW that I can PROVE that they're wrong and show them the truth.

I'm a somewhat opinionated person, but am very tolerant to others having a different opinion than I do...but it's different when we're dealing with FACT.

[phuz]

There is no such thing as a bulletproof test in this context.

It is not conclusive for anyone other than yourself.

Nobody will ever - with the exception of maybe using a wire hangar vs. some quality cables - be able to do this sort of test and make it 100% conclusive or reproducable to different people. The difference in most wire is completely subjective and results vary from person to person, it always will. You may get your conclusions, but to say that your conclusions are universal and everyone should agree and will hear the same thing is... well... wrong. That will never change.

It's a matter of perception, not copper, insulation, or silver.

There, I said it. :)

[Early B.]

I just can't stand it when people around me are wrong when I KNOW that I can PROVE that they're wrong and show them the truth.

This whole thread is obviously ego-driven.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by phuz
There is no such thing as a bulletproof test in this context.

It is not conclusive for anyone other than yourself.

Nobody will ever - with the exception of maybe using a wire hangar vs. some quality cables - be able to do this sort of test and make it 100% conclusive or reproducable to different people. The difference in most wire is completely subjective and results vary from person to person, it always will. You may get your conclusions, but to say that your conclusions are universal and everyone should agree and will hear the same thing is... well... wrong. That will never change.

It's a matter of perception, not copper, insulation, or silver.

There, I said it. :)
I disagree...and you're missing my point. Here, just answer this one question:

If I can hear a difference 100% of the time without fail, using various pairs of cables, how can there NOT be a difference???

The fact that there is a difference is not subjective or open for debate. How much of a difference, or if the difference is good or bad...sure, we can debate that all day long. But tell me again, if I (or anyone else) can consistantly hear a difference, then how does one NOT exist?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Early B.
This whole thread is obviously ego-driven.
You, sir, are wrong. And I feel that comment is way out of line.

Maybe you didn't catch this:

max, from what you're saying, it sounds like you can do the same thing as I...and I suspect that alot of the rest of you hardcore guys can do the same...I just happened to be the first one to volunteer...
How is that ego-driven?

I ask you the same question I asked phuz. If I can hear a difference 100% of the time without fail, using various pairs of cables, how can there NOT be a difference???

[madmax]

Just look at the cable swapping threads. They are mostly different. The only real question is which ones sound better or worse than others, not whether they sound different.

Does anyone here really think they all sound the same given an equal price?

madmax

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by madmax
Just look at the cable swapping threads. They are mostly different. The only real question is which ones sound better or worse than others, not whether they sound different.

Does anyone here really think they all sound the same given an equal price?

madmax
Max, I understand where you're coming from and that will always be a good topic for debating. However, I brought up the double blind test idea just to prove that there are differences in how wires sound. There are apparently people out there who belive there is no difference (i.e the guy who wrote that article about the ten audio lies started in another thread) - my only goal is to prove that a difference exists.

If you already believe this, which is sounds like you do, then this test will hold little value for you other than just confirming what you already know.

As for determining which cables are better, I'd never put myself in a position to conduct such a test because a) I believe that is subjective and b) of my limited experience with ICs. How can i possibly say which one is the best when I haven't heard them all.

[TroyD]

Mark, are you gonna put together any type of agenda for this meeting, or is it more informal?

Uhhhhh....for a baseline reference, check out the pics from the Carolina Polk Gathering. :rolleyes:

I wonder if we could find anything more pointless to argue about.

El Christo, how retarded is it to try and force objectivity into a hobby that is, at it's core, subjective?? Why even friggin' bother? The camp that believes there is no difference will still contend there is no difference.

If this is what the next Polkfest is about, count me out. I'll see you at the next Carolina Polkfest where there will be no attempt at a blind cable test. A beer funneling contest is a REAL possibility, however.

BDT

[jdhdiggs]

What's with all the "I'm taking my ball and going home" talk? Can't you guys see that some people are just curious and view this as fun?

You keep saying go try something, well, we are trying something. Not only that, but attempting it with as little bias to the results as possible. It's not going to change how you guys think and feel so why do you care to respond at all?

I've received some PM support from others to go ahead and do this becasue they are sitting on the fence as well. As maniac has said, we are trying to see if there is any difference at all. Not describing what's better, which has better treble, which has more bass, etc.. just difference. A lot of people don't want to experiment with cables because of the $$$ involved. If you can show that there is a difference between $0.50 patch cord and $1400 IC's, then they might have the motivation to go explore.

MadMax, Doro, and maniac are all firmly in the "difference" camp and have either shown indifference, or cuirosity and interst. The least you could do is not go on bashing people and name calling.

Everyone here is looking for their own audio truth. Some are just trying a different path than the one you approve of. Everyone is different, let's have a little tolerance.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

The camp that believes there is no difference will still contend there is no difference.
I just don't see how anyone can contend there is no difference when there is proof to the contrary.

Do you believe in gravity and the physical laws of motion? Sure you do, because there's proof. Same deal here...if someone can hear a difference 100% of the time...then there's a difference.

Difference is NOT subjective in this case. The amount of difference, or characteristics of the difference and how/if they apply to one's listening and cable choices...sure those are subjective. But the fact that there IS a difference, well there either is or there isn't...

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

You know what...nevermind

I now know of four people who've said they aren't going to attend the gathering because of this test, two have stated it publically, two via pm.

If we're gonna start losing people because of this test, then that's just stupid and we shouldn't do it. I'm definitely going to find a way to do this somehow and have the results recorded, but it doesn't have to be at the Polk gathering...

This idea was never meant to bring about this much of a heated discussion. I know we all have different opinions on cables, and each of us has his own cost/benefit ratio that he uses when buying gear. This test was never intended to even address any of that (go back and count how many times I've said that prior to this post, that this test isn't about determining what is better or how much difference there is).

The test was only brought up to demonstrate the fact that there is (or isn't, either way) a difference in cables and how they sound. I've met a bunch of audio gurus in person and online, a good percentage of them contend that there is absolutely NO difference in how cables sound and that high priced cables are a waste of money. The second half of that statement is subjective and not up for debate...the first half is simply ludicrous and can be disproved.

Thatnks for your support guys, you're great!:o

[TroyD]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
What's with all the "I'm taking my ball and going home" talk? Can't you guys see that some people are just curious and view this as fun?

You keep saying go try something, well, we are trying something. Not only that, but attempting it with as little bias to the results as possible. It's not going to change how you guys think and feel so why do you care to respond at all?

I've received some PM support from others to go ahead and do this becasue they are sitting on the fence as well. As maniac has said, we are trying to see if there is any difference at all. Not describing what's better, which has better treble, which has more bass, etc.. just difference. A lot of people don't want to experiment with cables because of the $$$ involved. If you can show that there is a difference between $0.50 patch cord and $1400 IC's, then they might have the motivation to go explore.

MadMax, Doro, and maniac are all firmly in the "difference" camp and have either shown indifference, or cuirosity and interst. The least you could do is not go on bashing people and name calling.

Everyone here is looking for their own audio truth. Some are just trying a different path than the one you approve of. Everyone is different, let's have a little tolerance.

I'm not calling anyone names, I'm just saying that this particular horse has been beat to death WAY too many times.

I believe that there is equally as much bias in both camps, actually. I fall somewhere in the middle.

Again, not every difference will show up correspondingly on a chart or graph, that's my philosophy. It's up to each of us individually to determine if we can discern the difference and if we can how much importance we assign to it.

I just think it's retarded to keep flogging away at this, it's been done too many times in too many places and the results are ALWAYS the same.

BDT

[dorokusai]

If a few indivduals want to mess around with a cable demo at the Polkfest, then they will be able to do so.

Since the area will be seperate anyways, how is it affecting anyone else if they want to conduct a simple experiement.

If some of you don't wish to attend, because of this being too formal, then don't attend.

[BlueMDPicker]

I am notoriously absent from these debates. However, I'd like to offer my personal observation regarding what I'm after in audio of any kind: tone.

tone (n.) The quality or character of sound.

I'm a guitarist and keyboard player. If I can't get my tone going, I can't play (well, technically, I can play - I simply don't enjoy it.) What contributes to the overall tone in an electric guitar, for example? Everything: construction and material type of the instrument, tuning and intonation, nut, bridge, fret height/width, strings, pickups, pots, switches, internal wiring, external wiring, amplifier design, speakers, cabinet design, and venue. I can change any single factor listed and instantly notice (I believe you could as well) a difference in tone which I can describe with singularity. No science involved, just perception of the quality or character of the sound.

I would submit that what we are all after is tone in our audio systems. Additionally, I'll submit that everything in the signal path is a contributing factor to the quality or character of the sound.

Enjoy the music.

Mike

[Early B.]

You know what...nevermind

Finally, something we can all agree on...

BTW, PM -- you shouldn't even bother participating in such a test because you've already formulated your opinion on this issue. If you do, the test will be totally invalid before you even get started. You gotta find a large number of subjects who are not biased to do the listening. You'll also need to employ the services of a statistician. Good luck with trying to prove to yourself that you're right.

[Early B.]

I would submit that what we are all after is tone in our audio systems. Additionally, I'll submit that everything in the signal path is a contributing factor to the quality or character of the sound.
Interesting post, Blue.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Early B.
Finally, something we can all agree on...

BTW, PM -- you shouldn't even bother participating in such a test because you've already formulated your opinion on this issue. If you do, the test will be totally invalid before you even get started. You gotta find a large number of subjects who are not biased to do the listening. You'll also need to employ the services of a statistician. Good luck with trying to prove to yourself that you're right.
Obviously you've got it out for me...that's fine whatever. But, can you start by answering my question please??

If I can hear a difference 100% of the time without fail, using various pairs of cables, how can there NOT be a difference??? You do know what a blind test is right?

[unc2701]

Originally posted by Early B.
You'll also need to employ the services of a statistician.

The statistician is already covered... no need to employ, I'll waive the usual $200/hr fee.

[2+2]

Early B. you missed the boat on this altogether. It would not surprise me one bit if 90% of the general population cant hear any difference. Thats fine and your test would prove nothing.

Polkmanic is saying that eventhough many people cannot hear a difference in cables, that difference does exists and it can be heard on a consistent basis, and that he can hear it on a consistent basis. The fact that Polkmanic can hear the differences consistenly shows that there is a difference (even though many people will likely not be able to hear)...this is a question of whether a difference EXISTS, not can the difference be heard by the general population or any individual. Polkmanic being able to ID calbes 20/20 is merely on guesses is not a possibiltiy...

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by 2+2
Early B. you missed the boat on this altogether. It would not surprise me one bit if 90% of the general population cant hear any difference. Thats fine and your test would prove nothing.

Polkmanic is saying that eventhough many people cannot hear a difference in cables, that difference does exists and it can be heard on a consistent basis, and that he can hear it on a consistent basis. The fact that Polkmanic can hear the differences consistenly shows that there is a difference (even though many people will likely not be able to hear)...this is a question of whether a difference EXISTS, not can the difference be heard by the general population or any individual. Polkmanic being able to ID calbes 20/20 is merely on guesses is not a possibiltiy...
OMG!!!! Finally, someone who 'gets' it!

Thank you!

By the way, Early B entered this thread with hostility...so I doubt he's interested in hearing the rational point of view.

[hoosier21]

I see no problem at all with trying doing this test, why not? It could be fun, But…. just a few thoughts,

Agenda?
Sponsors?
Video taping?
A Lab?

Come on now, the gatherings I have been to, are 75% social events, with cool gear and demos coming in second. Think about it, even if Mark's is a small gathering like Russman had in Texas, it is hard to do critical listening with 2-3 stereos going at the same time, 5-8 people milling around, swapping out gear, changing CD's.

Now when we were at Troy's, we had 30-40 people inside and outside, two rigs going on, lots of gear everywhere, speakers swapping out every 20 mins. 3 and 4 people to a couch, some on the floor, some in easy chairs off to the side.

I predict Mark will have 2 to 3 rooms set up for listening, 20-30 people EASY, a frigging ton of gear. It will it be hard to listen for the differences in the cables with all the people and noise from talking, sound from other rooms and such. It will be nearly impossible and somewhat rude to ask the other 20 people attending to be silent and don't move while somebody is trying to listen to x y and z cables. The gathering will be a great time, but not even close to being ideal for cable evaluations.

I suggest for those on the fence, why wait till the meeting, do it right now at your house, with your equipment. Join the cable swap program, the cost is shipping to the next person in line.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
I just don't see how anyone can contend there is no difference when there is proof to the contrary.

The answer is simple. Some people have not seen the proof for themselves, or nobody has taken the time to show them the proof.

My house and beer tap are open for anyone to show me the proof. FYI I like 80 proof.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by PolkThug
The answer is simple. Some people have not seen the proof for themselves, or nobody has taken the time to show them the proof.

My house and beer tap are open for anyone to show me the proof. FYI I like 80 proof.
Oh I understand that completely. But if you are shown the results of the test (or can witness it first-hand) and I am 100% accurate on identifying cables...then you'd have to admit there's a difference right? maybe not one you can hear, but that one exists...right?

[jdhdiggs]

2+2

Right on, 100%.

Some beliefs of my own since I am now getting bashed by both camps in various threads:

I know that I will most likely never hear the difference (real or not) because my hearing is not that great. I have burst both eardrums twice on the left and around four or five times on the left. I have passed hearing sensitivity tests perfectly, but I know my hearing is far from perfect. My wife proves this to me consistantly. She can here the TV in DVD mode from 40 ft through 2 closed doors. Me, I can barely here it in the same room. Does this mean I shouldn't care? No, not really. It is curiousity driven. If PM can go 20/20, then I know if I change my cables, at the very least it will sound better to my wife or some of my guests. It also allows me to feel better spending $50-$100 on a piece of cable knowing that it does make a difference to some people. And perhaps with some training, I might here that difference as well.

If PM fails, as the "difference" and "no-difference" camps are both predicting? Well, I'll go spend that extra budget on better speakers that I know have different sounds and be done with this stupid argument. And speaker differences can be measured on a computer... :D

I can feel the vultures circling...

Worse comes to worse PM, if we can borrow some high end interconnects and an integrated amp (since my carve/adcom setup doesn't seem sufficient) come to my house for a night and we'll do it there. Maybe I'll talk my wife into making her famous pork tenderloing in chedder cheese sauce... :p

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Oh I understand that completely. But if you are shown the results of the test (or can witness it first-hand) and I am 100% accurate on identifying cables...then you'd have to admit there's a difference right? maybe not one you can hear, but that one exists...right?

YES!! I agree with you 100%.

[hoosier21]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
I have burst both eardrums twice on the left and around four or five times on the left.

but how many times on the left? lol

Also, jdhdiggs, why did you post not to use the Maggies in this test?

I think Maggies would be the most revealing speaker to try the test on.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
If PM fails, as the "difference" and "no-difference" camps are both predicting?
You say that like there's a chance of that happening:D

Keep in mind, I'm not doing this for me...I've done this a bunch of times and already know there is a difference. I am doing this to prove to all the nay-sayers that there IS a difference. I wouldn't be putting my ass on the line if I thought there was a chance I could fail at this...I'm not that brave, not even close.

I think i asked this already, but can you hear the difference between your Polks and a set of crappy KLH or Bose? Can you do that 20 out of 20 times? I bet you can... That's how much of a difference there is between cables for me...night and day usually. Maybe I have superhuman ears or something:D or maybe I've just learned to use those more due to bad sight...who knows...

All you people saying that I'll fail, I'm serious about those bets. I'll take any bet you make that I'll get 20/20

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Maybe I'll talk my wife into making her famous pork tenderloing in chedder cheese sauce... :p
mmmm...cheese...:D

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
mmmm...cheese...:D

Seriously, the thing is a heart attack on a plate, but damn is it good. With some asperagus and foccacia and a good wine... Now that's tasty...

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by hoosier21
but how many times on the left? lol

Also, jdhdiggs, why did you post not to use the Maggies in this test?

I think Maggies would be the most revealing speaker to try the test on.

I agree wholeheartedly agree with you, but some people believe that di-pole type speakers would hide the differences. That argument came up when some people did the same thing running 3.6's and ML gear over at AVS.

I'd figure klipsch would do this as well, but same argument was made becasue the horn "disguised" the sound.

That's why. :D

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

James, how far are you from Mark? Russ brought up a good point about there possible being too many at Mark's place to do a good demo...I definitely don't want to inconvenience anyone else by doing this at the gathering.

There won't be any need to bring extra gear over to your place. I think if I can hear it on a yamaha receiver through some RTi8s at Tweeter, I can do it with your gear.

[jdhdiggs]

85 Miles as my car drives, but if that's what it takes to get away, then whatever.

Test gear would be 1.6QR maggies driven by a carver a500x, adcom passive pre-amp and an modded CDP with a tube output stage assuming all my stuff is used.

[Early B.]

Polkmanic is saying that eventhough many people cannot hear a difference in cables, that difference does exists and it can be heard on a consistent basis, and that he can hear it on a consistent basis. The fact that Polkmanic can hear the differences consistenly shows that there is a difference (even though many people will likely not be able to hear)...this is a question of whether a difference EXISTS, not can the difference be heard by the general population or any individual. Polkmanic being able to ID calbes 20/20 is merely on guesses is not a possibiltiy...

No, I get it. I can hear the difference in cables. Does a difference exist? YES, it does (at least to me). So what? The difference is only significant if one can hear it. Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it. Waste of f*cking time. Proves nothing to no one. Nevertheless, you guys are free to enjoy your fruitless and frivolous attempt at doing something that's been done 100 times already without success.

[steveinaz]

I've done all the testing I need to do; tried another cable, didn't like it, so I replaced it.

You like your supplied 99 cent IC's? then keep them. No skin off my nose...

[jdhdiggs]

If he does it, it proves a lot to a lot of people. It is very intersting that the only people that say it's a fruitless waste of time are those who are already convinced that it does make a difference.

Even PT said that if PM does it, he'd change his stance... Won't prove anything to anyone? It will if he's successful. If he fails, it just proves that he was full of crap, and that's all.. It's all in fun. ;)

[2+2]

I guess the point of Polkmanics experiment would be evidence that difference between cables do exist and people who says "difference does not exist" should just say that "difference exists but I can't hear it so interconnects are irrelevant" and that is perfectly fine....

[hoosier21]

Make it interesting? I say PM does a beer bong or a shot after each test! and let's see if he makes it through 20 tests.:D

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by hoosier21
Make it interesting? I say PM does a beer bong or a shot after each test! and let's see if he makes it through 20 tests.:D
Eh, no openings for volume pukes, we'll stick to shots for each time he gets one wrong, or when someone wants to make him... :D

[Early B.]

I guess the point of Polkmanics experiment would be evidence that difference between cables do exist and people who says "difference does not exist" should just say that "difference exists but I can't hear it so interconnects are irrelevant" and that is perfectly fine....
Yeah, that's like trying to PROVE to a blind man that grass is green so can he say, "I'll admit that grass is green, but I still can't see it."

Utterly pointless.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by Early B.
Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it. Waste of f*cking time. Proves nothing to no one.

Not true! You're making huge assumptions here. I find it very relevant and I haven't heard differences yet.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Early B.
No, I get it. I can hear the difference in cables. Does a difference exist? YES, it does (at least to me). So what? The difference is only significant if one can hear it. Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it. Waste of f*cking time. Proves nothing to no one. Nevertheless, you guys are free to enjoy your fruitless and frivolous attempt at doing something that's been done 100 times already without success.
Man, why all the hate? Geez man, freakin' chill out. If you're not into it, that's fine...but there's no need to smal everyone else who is.

Did you mother not teach you to play nice with the other kids???

and saying that "Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it" is like saying "Man that picture is beautiful, but I guess it doesn't mean anything to a blind person". What about people like me who just want to know stuff, and know the truth about stuff...even if it doesn't apply to them.

Hell, I can draw out and explain the DT fusion reaction (D + T > 4He (3.5 MeV) + n (14.1 MeV)). It doesn't have anything to do with me and what I do for a living (not even remotely close)...but I still find interest in it and still like to know about it...

[unc2701]

Originally posted by Early B.
Yeah, that's like trying to PROVE to a blind man that grass is green so can he say, "I'll admit that grass is green, but I still can't see it."

Utterly pointless.

1)Bad metaphor, a blind man can't learn to see.
2)Circular logical, you assume that which is to be proved.

By the way, why do all the cables matter people seem to get really uptight whenever someone says the words "Double blind"? Everyone except for PM seems to be totally flipping out.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
What about people like me who just want to know stuff, and know the truth about stuff...even if it doesn't apply to them.

Bingo!

[steveinaz]

Folk's, thats why they call it "Cable Theory." If we had facts, this debate wouldn't exist.

It's like arguing religion, try to prove all you want, but it won't change a thing, and I'll still go home a Catholic! :D

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Originally posted by Early B.
Yeah, that's like trying to PROVE to a blind man that grass is green so can he say, "I'll admit that grass is green, but I still can't see it."

Utterly pointless.
HAHAHA...we were both typing at the same time, and still had a similar alanogy...in fact I like yours better...

A blind man can't see that the grass is green, but did you ever stop and think that he may still want to know that.

Let's use your scenario...

1 - Blind man doesn't know what color grass is.
2 - You tell him it's green - sure he doesn't know what that is like because he doesn't know what green is
3 - Someone down the road asks him "What color is grass" he replies "It's green"

If you'd have your way, he'd sayv "hmmm...I have no idea because I can't see it"

Grossly oversimplified, but there it is using your example...

[PolkThug]

I think its funny the name of this thread is "Finally, an end to the cable debate!" and we're on page 4 now.

:D

[Early B.]

I think its funny the name of this thread is "Finally, an end to the cable debate!" and we're on page 4 now.
The only way to end the cable debate is to say that this debate will never end -- unless, of course, someone attempts to prove that nothing can never end or that the end must be measured scientifically in order to be considered valid. :p

[unc2701]

Uhhh, actually, I think that the cable debate would end if just one person could consistantly identify two cables in a controlled environment. Which hasn't happened yet... ever. So if PM can do what he says, then yes, the thread is correctly titled.

[Early B.]

I think that the cable debate would end if just one person could consistantly identify two cables in a controlled environment.
Gee, you only need one person to do this? Yeah, that'll definitely end this debate. :rolleyes:

[dorokusai]

Originally posted by unc2701
Uhhh, actually, I think that the cable debate would end if just one person could consistantly identify two cables in a controlled environment. Which hasn't happened yet... ever. So if PM can do what he says, then yes, the thread is correctly titled.

F1Nut and myself have done that, but who gives a shite. The difference between a Nordost Solar Wind and the MIT S1 or S3 series is like night and day to us....that's just one of the things we have done on our end.

I believe in cable theory, and its effects and like some Polkies stated previously, that's my stand and I'm very comfortable with it.

I'm definetly in the not uptight camp because I don't care what any of you think about my opinion...with all due respect of course.

Why? It's just an opinion, have we all forgotten this important fact of all things audio?

I personally have zero need to change anyones mind, that's completely up to them....hence the Cable Swap program. It allows you to come up with your own opinion, in your own enviroment.

If you don't try it or demo cables out on your own elsewhere, than your opinion on the matter is without merit.

There have been individuals that found positive, negative and inconclusive results. WOO HOO! That's the whole point, plain and simple.

I could care less either way as I don't make money from the program....I only lose money.

Good luck in your thread, I'm outta here.

[2+2]

Early B., it doesnt matter to the blind man that hte grass is green. You are right. But what is being said here is that the blind man is saying something like "grass is not green" and others are saying grass is green as a factual matter, whether you can see it or not. At the end of the day, as doro and many have said, it really doesnt matter....thus, to the blind man, grass can be purple for all he cares....but that does not detract at all from the relevance of the fact that grass is green...

....ug...I've posted my share..I'm done.

Polkmanic, I am looking forward to your participation in the test. Good luck.

Peace out to all.

[PolkThug]

Wasn't "Sassy Grassy Green" a MOPAR color?

[PolkThug]

sassy grass green

[dragon1952]

Reminds me of my '73 Dodge Challenger. I bought that car in '74 with 16,000 miles on it for $3,200 :)

[dragon1952]

This is not mine :(

[mantis]

I actually sat here and read the entire thead... o WOW!!!

Ok,
I see why everyone has there opnions this way or that. I have my own opnion on wire.

As long as you use quality wire in your system and it can carry the entire signal from one place to the other withut any interference, then the goal has been met.

Over the years I have used many different kinds of wire and listened to many more. My findings are my own and will share after one listens for themself.

The only thing I have to say here is basically this...

You work hard at building your system to a level you can afford. You search for hours on spekaers and amps. Sources and software, why not the wire? Is wire not part of the system??? Are basic patch cords all that is nessary to hear your system at it's best? Do you know how much money I could have saved if that where true???

[Whadyasay]

Well....if cables of any type of configuration do sound different than others...they darn well SHOULDN'T. We all seem to agree that different components mated to different speakers make a discernable difference, and we spend enough time and money researching this. If anything, cables should not affect things, because all it is is more of a headache. I think the bigger issue is the marketing hype...meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible. The problem is, this supposed difference is exploited to the extreme as to make it seem like a night and day difference. So for those who buy into all of this, why not just admit that you're buying into it hook line and sinker and you're happy with that?

Actually, if someone has spent a lot of money on their cables, and in the end they are happier...no problem. Good for you. It's the people who claim such things like "You'd have to be deaf and ignorant not to tell the difference.." or "If you're fine with settling for mediocrity...." that heat this issue up. Then again, the more we all get into audio fidelity and its associated electronics, the farther away from general sensibility we stray anyway.

[F1nut]

".....meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible."

Have you tried different cables to be able to say that? I have and your comment is far from the truth.

[dragon1952]

meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible.
Well to me that's just the point. Cables are of all kinds of different construction and materials. Different metals and plating of the terminations, different purity metals used for the conductors, different dielectric and shielding materials, different gauges, stranded vs single conductor. It's the same with amps and CD players, etc. The objectivists are always using that similar quality/construction/specs argument when alot of the time the components we're comparing are not necessarily that similar.

[mantis]

Thats why spec's are spec's and actual performance is always different.

Can you put sound quality on paper?

Dan

[Whadyasay]

Originally posted by F1nut
".....meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible."

Have you tried different cables to be able to say that? I have and your comment is far from the truth.

Yes I have, and the differences seem extremely subtle...but not worth the money spent on these high-end/boutique wires in search of the magic formula. If there is an extreme difference, then it means that one of these really expensive cables is either a piece of garbage with horrible construction or it is adding tonal coloration...is that what a cable is supposed to do? If so...why do it with a cable? Shouldn't cables be as neutral as possible?

I do sound editing/design for movies, so I'm trained to hear differences...and by the time I think I hear a difference, it's a tough call as to whether it really does sound different or if I've forced myself into hearing a difference. I've recorded into ProTools using the same speaker/mic/volume level etc. but with different cables of similar quality construction (interconnects from Audioquest, Monster, Kimber....speaker wire from AR, Audioqiest, Kimber) and then zoomed in and looked at the individual waveforms, even a sample at a time. They were identical. I've had to cancel sounds out by reversing the phase of what seemed identical to the ear, but was a few peaks/valleys off. When that's the case, some sound will always come through...albeit tiny at times. Reversing one of the cable sample recordings against another, when lined up properly, created absolute silence...meaning they were identical.

Some say you can't electronically measure the differences that people hear....well, this microphone can hear better than just about any human...and IT heard no difference, even though at times I thought I kinda' did. But what does a machine know, right? Did the mic cable somehow ingeniously average out the two recordings into identical representations? If so...maybe I should be using THAT for cable instead.

Come to think of it...I've never met a recording engineer who's spent tousands of dollars on a high-end boutique micropone cable to be used while recording the very material we all listen to.

Also, by the time I think I've heard a difference, I'm not listening to the actual music anymore...so what's the point?

[Whadyasay]

Sorry...double post.

[F1nut]

Well, we're back to the fact that some people can hear a difference and some can't. Sometimes the differences are subtle, sometimes they are huge, but then there are a lot of subtle differences in audio and if even it's just a subtle improvement, to me, it's worth every dollar. It's kinda like the need for speed, to shave a second off your time it may involve a lot of subtle changes and may cost a lot of money, but oh what a effing ride.

[Whadyasay]

If you felt like you were driving faster, yet your lap time and radar gun readings were exactly the same as before you got that $3000 timing belt...would you still think you were driving faster?

$4 a week can make a subtle improvement in some starving child's life. What can it do for an audio system?

Now...I cannot prove that someone isn't hearing something that someone else isn't. But what they claim to be hearing is something that cannot be proved scientifically, whereas the lack of functional and electrical differences can be. So...if these cable manufacturers have somehow figured out how to control and manipulate things that cannot be quantified, but can be unequivocally sensed and distinguished by a few extrordinary people...what the heck are these manufacturers doing making cables?!! They think it's real...because they incorporate it in their designs. Should they not be applying these theories to the growth of scientific and biological development? Something that could possibly help the world, instead of keeping it secret and mysterious...and yet unproven? Okay, maybe it's not quite on the scale of something that could cure cancer or whatever......then why does this stuff cost so damn much?!!!!

[F1nut]

Depends, maybe the new timing belt was helping to get out of a corner faster, but causing extra engine fricton on the straights. Time to tweak a little more.

$4.00 a week for a year? Well, $208.00 will buy a very nice pair of used interconnect cables.

[Whadyasay]

Which sound exactly like a $40.00 pair.

[F1nut]

Hey, if you can't hear a difference, no big deal, but don't think that because you don't that others can't. Science? Screw science! I don't need to see some spec sheet to tell me what I hear or don't hear.

BTW, it's more than a few extrordinary people. Just read some of the cables review posts from folks that use to feel the same way you do and that's just a small precentage of audio freaks.

Edit for language......you prudes.

[TheReaper]

Here is my philosophy on cables. With sub-$1000 receivers having built in per-channel digital equalizers. It just doesn't make economic sense to go chasing after a cable to perfect the sound of a lower budget system like mine. I just use the equalizers in my receiver to tune the sound to my tastes.

[Whadyasay]

Originally posted by F1nut
Hey, if you can't hear a difference, no big deal, but don't think that because you don't that others can't. Science? Fuck science! I don't need to see some spec sheet to tell me what I hear or don't hear.

BTW, it's more than a few extrordinary people. Just read some of the cables review posts from folks that use to feel the same way you do and that's just a small precentage of audio freaks.

No...the thing is...I thought I was hearing a difference after a lot of back and forth. I really did. Which is why I did the testing using a special ribbon diaphram mic that a sound designer friend of mine uses to record ladybugs in flight, amongst other things (this guy was a sonar man on a naval sub...he's nuts when it comes to this stuff). We did these tests in his recording studio, with reference monitors in an anechoic sound booth. No electrical gauss or ohm tests and NO SPEC SHEETS...but the actual sound coming out of the speakers...being picked up by an insanely sensitive mic that can discern differences in frequencies that the human ear isn't supposed to be able to hear. The mic acts as the ear...a really GOOD ear. I intended to prove that there WAS a difference...but I couldn't. If one sound was any brighter or bassier or thinner/fuller sounding than another of the same material...even by a nano-amount...it would show up in the waveforms of the actual recording, as heard by the mic. It didn't. Now, this isn't to say that other cables out there won't sound any different no matter what you do. But if it does, something's been done to that cable to sound that way, meaning most likely that it's not doing its job, which is to stay out of the way in terms of audible coloration. I admit I had a limited variety, but the Monsters cost around $50, and the Audioquests were around $300.00 or something, the AR's around $30. Even a bigger price difference between speaker cables.

So the differences I were 'hearing' were a result of my wanting and trying to hear a difference. I work in audio and video production, I have extremely sensitive hearing and I'm a musician with just about perfect pitch....and I know how much of a mind f^%k sound can be, especially when you are listening repeatedly and microscopically to something for an extended period of time.

But whatever, really......some folks are happy with the exotic cables they bought...it makes them feel better about their system, and tey may or may not translate that into better sound. Me, I choose to save that money for other things and get the same performance as the exotic stuff...which makes me feel better about my system and the person who owns it.

[jdhdiggs]

That's pretty cool Whadayasay and matches some half-assed stuff we ran in college. We had some great wires to compare, but our mics/listeners/environment were not the best so we went the "inconclusive" route which really pissed off the guy whoe spent, minimum, $200/ft on every cable in his system.

What I really would like to see is some super cheapo patch cord, or even some basic AR or MC compared to something like transperent or MIT cables that do have some R-L-C components in the signal chain and see what they do to the signal. My suspicion on these types of cables is that they do change the sound by drastically in certain areas by changing the sounds at particular frequencies, but not the whole spectrum.

[dragon1952]

Originally posted by Whadyasay
No...the thing is...I thought I was hearing a difference after a lot of back and forth. I really did.

Yes....heaven forbid we trust our own ears :rolleyes:
Better to trust some inanimate object that can't even hear. If the squiggly lines match up it must sound the same. After all, squiggly lines don't lie. And a jet engine and a rock concert probably sound the same too becuase they both measure the same on the decibel meter.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by dragon1952
Yes....heaven forbid we trust our own ears :rolleyes:
Better to trust some inanimate object that can't even hear. If the squiggly lines match up it must sound the same. After all, squiggly lines don't lie. And a jet engine and a rock concert probably sound the same too becuase they both measure the same on the decibel meter.

If scientists could figure out a way to make recordings via your human ears, would you rather have a recording of your favorite live performance done with a human ear, or a microphone like what is used now?

[unc2701]

That makes me think of that mouse with the human ear on its back:

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by unc2701
That makes me think of that mouse with the human ear on its back:

haha! I just pictured a recording studio with mice hanging down everwhere.:)

[unc2701]

yes, but which IC would you use to hook the mouse to the mixing board?

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by unc2701
yes, but which IC would you use to hook the mouse to the mixing board?

A giraffe's spinal cord.

[PolkThug]

Perfect mic:

[dragon1952]

If scientists could figure out a way to make recordings via your human ears, would you rather have a recording of your favorite live performance done with a human ear, or a microphone like what is used now?

Are YOU talkin' to ME? :confused:

[PolkThug]

Yeah, my question was stemming from your sarcasm.

If our ears are better than squiggly lines, then perhaps our ears may make better mics than the actual microphones used to record the squiggly lines.

Of course, I'm being only half-serious.

Some people argue that we should trust our ears and not microphones paired with real-time analyzers (squiggly lines), as has been one of the debates since way before I was ever into audio.

The human frequency response curve is not as accurate as a $50 microphone's response curve, this was proven before I was born.

My point is that a "squiggly line" produced by my ear is not as good as the squiggly line produced by measurement devices.

*This post is all in good fun and of course, IMO.

[dragon1952]

My point is that a "squiggly line" produced by my ear is not as good as the squiggly line produced by measurement devices.

Yeah, well squiggly lines aside, there's obviously something else going on that can't be explained or measured. And since we don't listen with measuring devices I'll have to go by what my ears tell me.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :cool:

[Whadyasay]

See, Dragon, you're being a bit too dismissive of the process I described. These 'squigly lines' are very precise, and have proven to show incredibly minute detail in sound that the human ear cannot decipher. Combine that with a microphone many times more sensitive than the human ear. If you were to use the eardrum as a mic (eardrum = diaphram) it would not record as much detail as the mic we used. Neither would a dog's ear. Additionally, I didn't just look at the lines and say they're the same...I reversed the phase of one and played it against the other, and got total cancellation to the extent that it was better than when I've had to eliminate sound material on other recordings, but I was a few samples off. There was alot of comparison and testing based on THE REAL SOUND coming from the monitors...just like how it's delivered to US, not with oscilloscopes or ohm meters hooked up to the wire.

Again, the big caveat was that I didn't have a whole lot of cables on hand, but the ones I did varied in their price and construction (all well-contructed, but the Kimbers were braided, the AR's and AQ's were twisted pair, the Monsters were coax, etc.). SOME difference should have justified the price differences. We thn did tests with cheap-ass 18AWG speaker wire, and there was a slight difference in the amplitude, which was a more obvious result, but the overalllength of the wire was only 6 feet.

Perhaps this IS a testament to the mystical qualities of some cables...or at least some innate aversion to technology that we all have which manifests itself through sensory perception. I do agree that if we had a wider choice of cables, some differences would probably show up, but they would be so small that it would be hard to justify the costs based on materials used and construction. It's there we would start to get into differences in capacitance/resistance/inductance.....but as many here have stated, those numbers are 'meaningless'. Or are they?

Ask yourself this...if you did one of the so-called 'Blind' tests, not knowing which cables you were listening to before hearing the material...and you consistently picked #3, for example, later to find out that you chose regular Home Depot 12AWG speaker wire over some MIT's or some other high-priced ultra-designed cable, would you be inclined to use the Home Depot wire exclusively?

True, we don't have a computer hooked up to our ears, so if there are differences, they are being processed somewhere inside of us. Fine. Then again, if these cable manufacturers can control or manipulate those processes through different wired with the same functional and scientific properties....why is it only being applied to cable?

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by dragon1952
And since we don't listen with measuring devices I'll have to go by what my ears tell me.

Good point!

Regards,
PT

[F1nut]

Originally posted by Whadyasay
Me, I choose to save that money for other things and get the same performance as the exotic stuff...which makes me feel better about my system and the person who owns it.

I think you've got a few issues other than cables.



As my good friend Doro would say, this discussion has been going on and will continue until the end of time. Some hear a difference, some don't.

Maybe it's in the minds of those that can't hear a difference, not the other way around.


I'm outta this one.

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by F1nut
Maybe it's in the minds of those that can't hear a difference, not the other way around.


My computer refuses to hear a difference as well. :)

[shack]

These 'squigly lines' are very precise, and have proven to show incredibly minute detail in sound that the human ear cannot decipher. Combine that with a microphone many times more sensitive than the human ear. If you were to use the eardrum as a mic (eardrum = diaphram) it would not record as much detail as the mic we used.
Ok then...just because you can measure it doesn't mean you can hear it...and I will argue conversly....just because you can hear it doesn't mean you can measure it.

The human body is a marvel beyond anything that science can create at this time. To the best of my knowledge, while there have been some mechanical devices that can mimic and perform some of the fuctions of the human body, (pacemakers, dialysis machines, prostectic limbs, etc....) not one has come close to the intricate workings of even the simplest of the human organs. THE EARS INCLUDED! Yes...the human body is fragile and easily damaged and/or destroyed but when it works there are no machines that can equal the entire package that is the human organism.

You guys can trust the data your man made machines tell you with the "squigly" lines or whatever. For now I think I'll trust the ears attached to the brain that were designed and created by a much better "engineer".

[PolkThug]

If a microphone is responsible for recording all of the detail that we hear in our favorite singer's voice on our albums, then why couldn't a microphone detect changes induced by interconnects?

[dragon1952]

Ask yourself this...if you did one of the so-called 'Blind' tests, not knowing which cables you were listening to before hearing the material...and you consistently picked #3, for example, later to find out that you chose regular Home Depot 12AWG speaker wire over some MIT's or some other high-priced ultra-designed cable, would you be inclined to use the Home Depot wire exclusively?

I don't feel the type of test you're referring to gives you enough time to fully determine a definite preference, however I don't care if I use lamp cord if it was clearly my preference. I'm the only one who listens to my system and I'm the only one who I have to please. One thing objectivists always count on is that we are all (100% of us) swayed by advertising, hype and other exterior factors that cloud our perceptions. I'm sure many are but it certainly isn't even close to everyone. It's just an easy way for them to explain away the fact that many people claim to have distinct preferences.

[2+2]

I have some legit Qs for ya all on the topic of acoustics that the scientist in me would like to know...

When people talk about measurning sound, why is it just frequency?

Freq. cant be everything as someone noted about "tone". Surely, a C# produced by a guitar is clearly different sound than one made by a Steinway, which also differs from one made by a Yamaha upright. The frequency will be the same right, but the sound will be very different.

So what are the other parameters? Are these parameters accurately measureable and "graphable" using the "squiggly lines"? How are other parameters measured including (pardon my laymans terms) sustain, reverb, airyness, presence, timbre, harmonics?

I would think that all these factors would have to be "measurable" and displayable on a graph.

I am new to all this cable stuff but the differences I hear between cables are subtle and are not in frequency. It is in the other parameters such as sustain, reverb, airyness.....I would like to hear some thoughts.

Finally, Whadaysay, I also noticed that I can hear distinctions between cables more clearly in my System 1 vs my System 2, and cable A sounds better in System 1 whereas cable B (cheaper) sounds better in System 2...not everyone is easily influenced by cost.

[unc2701]

Amplitude (size), Frequency, and shape... that's all. One of the arguements for vinyl over CDs is that CDs approximate shape using fourier transforms. If you get the chance, get an old synth that lets you play with waveforms.

[shack]

If a microphone is responsible for recording all of the detail that we hear in our favorite singer's voice on our albums, then why couldn't a microphone detect changes induced by interconnects?
My point was that microphones, etc. were designed to reproduce, measure sound as we understand it. Maybe we don't understand all of the intricacies of the human ear so while a microphone may be able to repoduce the sound to the best of our knowlege, we may not be able to measure what the ear can process. You can measure intense heat...but can you accurately measure the pain it causes to the skin and transmitted to the brain? You can measure an odor as to it's composition but can you measure accurately how that information is processed by the brain when smelled by the nose? Maybe we are talking about not only what the ear receives in but how it processes that info.

[2+2]

Yes, there will be an amplitude associated with frequencies (which is required for a 2 dimensional graph)....so in the sound frequency spectrum, a recorded note would have certain amplitude for a given frequency....but what about the other sound qualities? ....or are you saying that they are all represented in the amplitude/frequency? That cant be the only two things..or could it? I also remembered about different order harmonics. Are they also represented?

[Whadyasay]

If they are different from one another, yes they will show up as different...meaning if one recording of Song A sounds different in any way from another recording of Song A (whether it be in harmonics, soundstage/phasing, sustain, reverb, thinness, fullness, what have you), both recordings, if different, will not copletely cancel the other out when stacked with one of them phase reversed. If they do cancel out completely, they are the same across the board.

Also folks.....the 'squigly line' equipment and approach I used are the same stuff that's used to CREATE a lot of what we listen to over the systems and cables in question. If you're okay with using it to record and mix the sound...why do you negate its validity when using it to test the sound?

Dragon...it doesn't have to be my test. It could be any kind of test that anyone feels is fair, as long as noone knows which cable brand/type they are listening to (other than letting them know they're hearing Cable #1, etc.) until the test is over. Look at it as a blind 'Dating-Game' like test, as if you won't find out what the possible dates look like until after you've asked the personality questions and such and made a choice.

Lastly, I am not saying to anyone "You are not hearing a difference...what you are perceiving is NOT happening" I haven't said that...in fact I've said that I THOUGHT I HEARD differences too, and I tried to prove that differences can be heard by measuring what was being heard. F1Nut...I'm not questioning whether people hear things differently. The question is, where are these differences originating from? And what I've tried to show with these tests is that it's possible (and in many cases proveable) that it's NOT coming from the cables. It's coming from inside of us. Which is fine....but how is that tied to the premium costs on some of these cables, and what kind of control do the manufacturers have over our internal processes?

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by 2+2
Surely, a C# produced by a guitar is clearly different sound than one made by a Steinway, which also differs from one made by a Yamaha upright. The frequency will be the same right, but the sound will be very different.


This is called harmonics (which are measureable).

[2+2]

I have an old Sansui graphic equalizer....it allows me to adjust not only the gain in various frequencies, but it also allows me to adjust "Reverb" (and custom tailor reverb at different frequencies), and further allows me to dial up "Presence". (Dont worry, its not hooked up in my system as it introduces too much noise as in hiss). This is the type of differences I have noticed in listening to cables...although bass response is also another varying characteristic I have noticed.

So, the measured frequency and harmonics account for all the sound eh. Well I sures hell dont understand what is going on wrt why I am hearing differences....(please dont give me the "bias" line as I assure you that is not the case).

All this makes Polkmanics test even more interesting to me....

.....being able to hear that which cannot be measured is the essence of hi-fi audio.....

(how do you like my coined phrase?)

[Whadyasay]

Yes....also, different physical resonating surfaces for each instrument.

Well, if you're okay with a cable adding these audio effects, then cool I'm in no place to question what you like. But a lot of folks would ideally want a cable that lets all audio information through without affecting it in any way.

[dragon1952]

And what I've tried to show with these tests is that it's possible (and in many cases proveable) that it's NOT coming from the cables. It's coming from inside of us.

I guess that explains why cheap bastards like their cheap cables and rich bastards like their expensive cables. :p
No , actually you (and most ojectivists) make the assumption that we humans will always prefer the most expensive or glitzy product and when someone mentions that they've actually preferred the plain, inexpensive cable you ignore it because it doesn't fit your argument.
I've been in too many of these arguments and they never go anywhere. The objectivists come across as arrogant becuase they believe they know things about human perceptions and tendencies that the rest of us dumbasses never thought of, and the subjectivists end up getting pissed off from being talked down to. I guess when we reach that higher plane that the objectivists are on we'll all suddenly know the meaning of life :rolleyes:

[Whadyasay]

No, I'm not saying that we'll ALWAYS prefer something or another because of it's price or cosmetics, although that can factor in sometimes. My point about testing is that a fair listening test should be performed without the listener knowing the brand/make of the cables being tested until the results are in.

Let's say I have two sets of cables and you don't know who makes each. We run 20 listening tests on your system, and for each one, you pick A or B, in terms of what you think sounds better, and the order in which the cables were tested for each test was varied...so you weren't hearing Cable A first each time. After the tests are over, let's say you chose B 16 out of 20 times. We then reveal Cable B to be a set of Radio Shack Gold series cables, and Cable A is a considerably more expensive type that you actually own and use. Would you then be inclined to switch out your cables for the ones you prefered during the test, even if they are Radio Shacks?

Where have I talked down to anyone...what are you afraid of? I'm simply bringing up possibilities derived through careful analysis tied into the physical experience of hearing sound. I have no real answers, just what I hope are legitimate observations that should be taken into acount. I still can't pinpont where the differences are coming from.

EDIT: Actually, I did include a 'hook line and sinker' in a post earlier, I think, and for that I apologize if it was taken the wrong way.

[dragon1952]

Would you then be inclined to switch out your cables for the ones you prefered during the test, even if they are Radio Shacks?
I already answered that question.

And by implying that my choices are based on my erroneous perceptions you are talking down to me. By implying that if the cables were unknown to me I would be able to make a more correct choice you are talking down to me. By implying that I am incapable of choosing my own preferences in my own way you are talking down to me and by implying that I'm hearing what I want to hear you are talking down to me. By challenging me to use the A/B test you are implying that my way is fallable and full of holes. You are implying that if the test isn't 'scientific' it is invalid. Your viewpoint isn't a new one , it's older than the hills, and it implies that people like me are dumbasses.

Edit: Oh yeah....and furthermore, you're also implying that I don't know what an A/B test is.

[Whadyasay]

I'm still not getting what's being implied. And I'm not talking down to anyone. Sorry if you feel that way, it wasn't my intent. I didn't even try to define the AB test, I just set up a possible scenario. I don't even know what a real AB test is, so I simply proposed this one. Does it not make sense? If my testing methods are clearly flawed, then they're flawed...they probably are in some areas. But I do think I've brought up some valid points. They may be old ones...but have they been proven wrong, or simply dismissed? I actually went into this subjectively, and came out of it not knowing where I stand on the matter. And if I'm told that I'm full of boloney, then it won't bother me. I'm just going by what I've heard....and tested. After the tests were over...I STILL thought I heard differences, so I'm just trying to figure out what's causing it, and if it can be controlled, repeated, and applied...and yes, how much it should cost if manufactured.

Here's an observation, and not an implication: This is making you angry...so I'll simply apologize for that and stop.

[2+2]

So Whatyasay, Polkmanics test OK with ya? I think that would help alot of people....but wonder if it could convince you seeing as how there would be no "measurements"....?

You should also try your analysis with some amps that sound different...I would be very curious to see if there is a measurable sonic difference since differences in amps appear to be of same order of magnitude (i.e. relatively subtle) as differences in cables......of course, I am assuming that you believe amps sound different....maybe you dont...

[Whadyasay]

I'm sure that amps would sound different unless they used the exact same electronic components in the same values and such. There's a lot more going on in amplifiers in terms of capacitors, resistors, heat dissipation and such. Heck, two of the same amplifiers can measure slightly different because of the tolerances in the components that are specifically designed to do something to the audio/electrical signal...at least to amplify it, if not change it tonally, per se (that's why you determine which value to use) rather than pass it along unaffected and unamplified, like wire. I wasn't testing amps, I was testing cables of the same guage with the same amp/player/speaker.

Has anyone got that I wasn't just plugging wires into an oscilloscope and checking the readings? I was testing it using the information that we use, the sound coming from speakers making waveforms in the air. Perhaps something chemically in our brains is picking up things that the electonics can't measure. I can totally see the possibilities (at least conceptually) of this. But if this can't be explained or quantified...how can it be accurately designed into a cable and priced accordingly? I can't scientifically prove how much I love someone or how much they love me...I just know it and don't have to prove it. But can you control the amount of love that's relayed by a cable? Probably not...so don't charge us for it.

[2+2]

Oh, I was just suggesting measuring different sounding amps to verify that your measurements and equipment have the capacity to measure the nuance changes....that's all. After all, it would be rather silly to state that you cant measure any changes in a cable if you cant measure sonic differences in an amp either right? It would be a good test for your equipment....cuz like you said, amps should sound different...at least that has been my experience so far...

[shiu]

Hello Polkmaniac, if I understood correctly, you could pick out your cables 10 out of 10 times. I would like to know the length of the cables you used for the tests.

I would guess that if you keep the cables to not longer than 1m, its R,L,C, should not change the signals much. If the cables are long enough, then one should be surprised to find cables of different impedance characteristics may, to some sensitive ears, sound different. Impedance due to L & C are frequency dependent. Even R is, to a lesser extent. Higher frequencies would be affected more.

[shack]

Originally posted by Whadyasay
But if this can't be explained or quantified...how can it be accurately designed into a cable
Spoken like a true "tech" guy. :D

How about listening and trial and error. The majority of the "Boutique" Cable Mfgs aren't necessiarly engineers/technicians first but are audio enthusiasts who happen to have some technical expertice.
Originally posted by Whadyasay
and priced accordingly?
The market decides the price. (with influence from marketing)

[Whadyasay]

I did the human trial and error first, and tried to back it up through testing. I then did AB tests (of sorts) after the testing, and picked inconsistently. If the cable makers have just a little technical eperience, then they're advertising some prettty heady stuff in terms of electrical values, chemical values in dialectrics, and format contruction in relation to electromagnetic properties. And who created the market which decides this price?

The guy who owns the studio is a true techy! And crazy, too. He buys at least two of everything, runs these tests after listening comparisons, and returns the one(s)) which 'proved' to be less. We're talking two of the same CD's, microphones, CD transports, etc.. Even he was shocked by the similarities between cables. We use the same equipment when he proved that my SACD of Blue Train sounded different from his identical SACD. He recorded it through the mic at a sampling rate of something like 192kHz..and he zoomed in and showed me a few tiny little peaks that were different. I asked him "Yeah, but can you hear that?" He said, "No...but it's THERE!" Again, he's crazy...one of the reasons he was so willing to set up and do this whole test. We did measure some slight difference in a pair of interconnects that he had...but it turned out to be a set that he had repaired with solder.

[shack]

The tech part may come after the fact. There are litterally thousands of products out there that were NEVER designed or quantified PRIOR to their inception. Something like....Wow...this works...I wonder why. And some start out as something and end up working as something entirely different. (ie: post-it-notes)
And who created the market which decides this price?
The consumer. Basic economics. Supply and demand. Marketing.

[Whadyasay]

Then we must STOP THE MADNESS!!:D :D :D

If one post-it stuck better than another, you could probably measure the adhesive properties between the two and quantify it. Yet....both of them stick.:p

[shack]

In case anyone did not know what I was referring to.....Fasci