Magnepan Speakers

[okiepolkie]

I am just now beginning to research ribbon speakers to use for two channel listening and HT.

My question relates to the sound field they produce.

I am wondering if Magnepans can produce a similar imaging effect as the SDA's.
If set up in the right way(which would have to be perfect), it would seem as though they act on the same principles.

The planar speakers send sound from the front of the speaker in phase, and an out of phase signal is sent from the back.

From my understanding, the SDA speakers work in a similar way, sending an in-phase signal from one vertical line, and an out-of-phase is sent from the other vertical line of speakers to cancel out the crosstalk.

If the Maggies were set up perfectly with right reflective surface behind and beside them, I would think they would produce almost the same effect.

I know this is much more difficult than just getting a pair of SDS's, but I'm just trying to determine if my theory is correct.

Zach

[jdhdiggs]

Not, not quite. The maggies and SDA's produce very different sound charactoristics. From what I have heard, Maggies sound stage is never as wide as a properly setup SDA system, but it feels like it has a little more "body" to it.

If you aren't familiar with both, go and do a demo. They each have their distinct stregths and weaknesses. That said, you'd probably like either.

Dorokusai and Hoosier have much more experience with both types of speakers than I on this so I'm leaving my complete answer out of it and defer to them.

[VR3]

A inphase signal from the front and a out of phase signal from the back would resort in bass loss, which they suffer from (Bass cancelation)

Maggies are -DIPOLAR-

SDA cancels cross talk frequencies, not bass...

[dorokusai]

The actual design limits the bass response, as it's a radiating panel, not a volume displacement woofer. It's simply not possible to reproduce low freq, with a diaphragm....however, they are capable of producing "low" freq. but it doesn't have the weight of a traditional speaker.

You should read more about this subject Trey, prior to generic comments.

It is in fact dipolar, but the cancellation is present in the entire spectrum as it is placement dependent....moreso than an SDA. They respond immediately to changes in enviroment, meaning listening enviroment....some effects are better, some are much worse. If you don't have some space to play with Magnepan, it isn'y a speaker for you....most open speakers are this way, as again it's a design feature.

In response to the question, they have more depth than SDA's IMO. I've run all over the SDA spectrum, and ALOT of other speakers....and the Magnepan was the first in a long line to really get me involved. This is not to say that the others didn't sound well, they just didn't have the impact that the Magnepan expressed.

They Magnepan moved me into an entirely new direction, it was refreshing.

[okiepolkie]

So if the magnepans were set up with the right reflecting walls, they would have similar properties as the SDA's.

I'm not trying to make the Magnepans into SDA's. I was just curious to if the my understanding was somewhat correct.

I might actually consider the MMGW + MMGC setup for my next home theater. Theey would probalby make great surround speakers, providing great ambient effects.

Of course I'll add a subwoofer to the mix.

Thanks for the help guys.

[dorokusai]

The HT version of the Magnepan simply doesn't do the same thing for me....it's a market offering, not a performance offering.

Regarding, my thoughts on MMG's, they don't "throw" a soundstage like the SDA, nor are they as wide and obvious. In comparison they are smaller in soundstage, but deeper and more tangible when it comes to critical listening....they have a very fluid presentation that I find SDA's to be lacking.

It reminds me of the accuracy of a quality full range driver, obviously in the proper array, in that it is so quick in it's response.

Ask BluePickle about his Cain's....and he also owns Magnepan if I am not mistaken.

[jdhdiggs]

Following up from Doro's post... I would say that if you can't get to at least the MMG/SMGa level, you are missing a lot of what make maggies, well, maggies. The "home theater" speakers are reported to have multiple issues in that magnepan was a little too generous on their specs and they need to be X-overed up high.

If you want the "on-wall" speakers from that brand, look at the MC1. of course that's a lot more dough. (~$750 instead of $299)

You will never get the SDA effect from maggies unless you throw a Carver Sonic Holography generator somewhere in the loop. SDA is a speaker design feature that isn't replicated elsewhere in speakers.

Also remember, Maggies are extremely inefficient and have very little impedence so that is a big consideration as well.

[VR3]

I could see how the design of the Maggies would limit bass output. Not like it is moving a rediculous amount of air or anything...

But it dosnt remove the fact that the dipolar design as a whole cancels bass frequencies out.

This is why Mirage came up with the bipolar mains back in the late 80's, early 90's - it offered similar attributes of dipolar, with no bass loss, but infact a bass increase...

Apparently, Omnipolar takes this a whole other step further, I will have to hear a pair..

Maggies have my attention, now I just gotta find a pair local to hear...

The design is very cool.

[dkg999]

A properly set-up and powered pair of Maggie 3.6's, with vocally intense music or some Pink Floyd, and you better have a towel to wipe up the drool! Expensive, but awesome!

[dorokusai]

It creates cancellation due to design, or rather cancellation is a result, not exactly intentional...but it's not cancellation that creates the lack of bass response, it's design. I'm not sure what part of that you don't understand.

The Mirage "omnipolar" design is also generic, it's simply design yet again. I'm not here to school you, but the driver configuration creates the effect....which certainly exists, but is loose and not extraordinary....they aren't breaking ground when it comes to this design and idea. This is not a new idea.

Mirage augments bass, where is the comparison applicable?

Mirage has little to do with the Magnepan....they are a Martin Logan wannabe.

[Tour2ma]

You tell 'em, Mark...

You nailed it with the original "Maggies deep/ SDA's wide" soundstage reply. "Fluid" was an interesting additional Maggie characterization I can get next to... While it seems somewhat at odds with the pinpoint imaging I get from my 1.5's, somehow it isn't...

Zach,
Another consideration with the 2 ch Maggies is that they need to be 2-1/2' or so away from the back wall to really work their magic. Can make them a bit difficult to live with in a busy space.

But they do have two things going for them here though:
- very easy to move, so they can be stored against a wall and set back up quickly; and
- they're worth the trouble... at least for 2 ch... not sure about HT.

[TroyD]

Jeeze Sid, do a little homework, will ya?

The inherent design of a dipole speaker has nothing to do with bass response rather it's the design of the drivers.

The ribbons the Amazings are rated to 20hz but they just don't have the authority of the 12" drivers.

Agreed though, not much compares to the sound of a competently designed planar speaker.

BDT

[Tour2ma]

Side note...

When F1 and I did out Polk HQ visit a couple years ago, I mentioned my 1.5's to Matt and asked if he'd ever messed around with ribbons/ planars...

His answer was "not really", but then he talked for bit about how he admired Magnepan. Was really into the old "Tympani" model and how they tuned their panel ala a "kettle drum".

[VR3]

Who said a dipole speaker was designed around bass response?

It dosnt change the fact when firing forwards in phase, then firing backwards out of phase - it *will* cancel out the bass in some regions...

This is mostly dependant on the room though, I know.

As for Magnepan, I *do* understand that the design cant move enough air to reproduce bass. :)

[Tour2ma]

Glimmer of hope at the end there... ;)

Sid,
When you talk cancelation, don't forget that reinforcement would also occur. With proper set up (distance from back wall and toe-in) I don't think Maggies are worse than front firing only. Sound is too smooth...

Plus side, and it's a biggie, is what the time delay from the reflected wall firing side does to the depth of the soundstage...

[VR3]

If you HONESTLY think I am bashing reflective speaker technology you are outside your mind! LOL

I own *TWO* towers that utilize similar technology. I *know* what they can do when properly setup.

I just find it interesting how dipolar gets all the talk while bipolar does not. Bipolar has all the same perks, with *no* bass cancelation...

So, it must be Magnepan's design - the ribbon that is the magic that draws people in :)

I love front/rear firing speakers, direct radiating speakers just cant compare! :)

70% of the sound we hear is reflected ;)

[TroyD]

Sid,

Do us a favor...shut your pie hole. No less than three people who actually OWN ribbon speakers are trying to explain them to you and it's obviously doing a complete fly by.

[VR3]

Marks first post actually does explain it a lil more, but not quite what I was looking for - but it does explain that the maggies can cancel out all over the place, that is interesting....

Here is my lastttt question and then I'm gone from this thread...

How does the thing work? Like what is producing the sound?

[TroyD]

OK, the premise behind a ribbon speaker is, in theory, fairly simple.

It's essentially a thin sheet of material that vibrates between magnets and when the material vibrates it radiates sound. OK? When it does so, it radiates sound front and rear. The sound headed out the ass end usually reflects off a wall.....see where I'm going with this??

Now with SDA, the 'cancellation' is a totally different concept. With the SDA drivers you send the left channel signal to the SDA drivers on the right speaker and vice versa. This out of phase information from opposite channels ensures that the left ear hears the left channel and vice versa: like a pair of headphones, if you will.


BDT

[Tour2ma]

OMG... now headphones are in the mix...

[okiepolkie]

Thanks for all of the responses. I know a lot more about both technologies now.
If I don't come across a good deal on some SDA's, then I might get some MMG's for front L/R, a contemporary center channel, and a pair of MMGW's for rears.
I will experiment with different centers. I haven't heard a lot of good things about electrostatic centers.

[Tour2ma]

Electrostats??? :D

[maggiefan]

Magnepans are not electrostats. They are planars.

[okiepolkie]

Sorry, I was really tired last night(amazing how a 4 month old can wear you down) and didn't think about what I was typing. I had been researching both on Saturday, so they were both on my mind.

As a matter of fact, I can't remember the last time my wife and sat down to actually watch a movie.

[TroyD]

If you get Maggies for your mains, I'd give the maggie center some consideration; I've heard it and it's great.

The ML center channel I've heard, I was less than impressed with.

BDT

[organ]

This thread is really getting me excited. A pair of MMG will be my next purchase for soft relaxing vocal music.

Maurice

[dorokusai]

Organ- Magnepan is a modest investment that may very well change your perspective on audio. If you haven't experienced a non-traditional speaker, you're a idiot. No offense to the masses, just at least put your ears on something that you wouldn't normally....this is across the board.

You WILL NOT know audio until you start PLAYING with audio, period.

JohnK can talk about how this isn't true, and that is only because we're stupid....in the meantime, I'll continue to change things and rock on....while he's in his basement with his Sony boom box and Judas Priest - Greatest Hits CD...angry and dis-illusioned by why everyone hears these things....because it's such garbage of course.

Ah....sweet relief.

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by okiepolkie
...amazing how a 4 month old can wear you down... It's been 4 months? Seems like only yesterday...

[jdhdiggs]

Who is this JohnK that I keep hearing about? Anyway, since I can't move these into anything resembling a good spot, I figured I show the differences between the SDA1B and MG3.3R's as far as size go. Pics and review to come after some polkie comes and gets the SDA's. (no they are not for sale, they are sold)

[hoosier21]

I guess you got the Maggies, good for you.

[jdhdiggs]

Yup, long a$$ road trip last night through both Baltimore and DC during rush hour. Loads of fun...

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Who is this JohnK that I keep hearing about?

Doro loves JohnK. :D

"don't be a JohnK."

"...you are destined for KMart gear....in other words JohnK."

"JohnK can talk about how this isn't true, and that is only because we're stupid....in the meantime, I'll continue to change things and rock on....while he's in his basement with his Sony boom box and Judas Priest - Greatest Hits CD...angry and dis-illusioned by why everyone hears these things....because it's such garbage of course.'

[jdhdiggs]

Got it, just started seeing that recently. Thought it might have been an old poster ala bullwinkle or spyder. My bad...

[PolkThug]

JohnK is a real person on this forum, but it does seem doro has changed "JohnK" into a word of his own.:)

[dorokusai]

I knew I had seen those before....nice grab, have fun.

[Tour2ma]

Sweet looking 3.3's... worth the trip for sure...

[jdhdiggs]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Sweet looking 3.3's... worth the trip for sure...

Yup, that's for sure. The right speaker has some snages in the sock but that's it. The wood and X-overs are spotless. Got to play with them at lunch and turn it up a bit. Definately different from the SDA's and LSi's. I'll write a full review when I get them situated a bit better.