Directional arrows on cables? [Archive]

Laura Palmer

07-06-2005, 01:36 PM

I don't get it.
Someone brought to my attention that cables have arrows on them? And that they have to be going a certain direction?

I guess if I'm hooking up a DVD player to my receiver that I need to have the arrows pointing towards the receiver? And if I plug my pre-outs to my amp I make sure the arrows are pointing to the amp?

That's the only logical explenation I would gather, but it's the first I've heard of it. If I have cables backwards in my setup right now, what exactly is hapenning?

ND13

07-06-2005, 01:42 PM

You'll get to hear if there's any backwards masking on the recordings:p :D

Polkersince85

07-06-2005, 01:46 PM

" If I have cables backwards in my setup right now, what exactly is hapenning?"

Try playing a Beatles CD and see if you can hear them talking about Paul.

Seriously, IMO it just for consistency purposes. Gives you that warm and fuzzy feeling.

SCompRacer

07-06-2005, 01:51 PM

If you play any country and western songs, you get your dog back, your spouse back, your house....

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I read somewhere that interconnects are marked with directional arrows that indicate the direction that the conductors were drawn in. Since the audio signal is fundamentally AC, the signal goes back and forth, so I don't see what difference it would make. But I'm no sudiophile. EDIT. I can't even spell it. Audiophile. :D

izafar

07-06-2005, 02:06 PM

Most of the directional interconnects have three conductors, two regular and one for shield. The Shield conductor is only connected to -ve terminal of source end. The idea is to route all interference, picked by shield, towrads the source so that it doesnt effect components up stream.

dragon1952

07-06-2005, 02:17 PM

From a Wireworld PDF:

"The microstructure of copper and silver conductors is actually made up of individual grains. Unavoidable angular patterns in this grain structure cause cables to perform differently in both directions. Wireworld cables are manufactured utilizing a proprietary Grain OptimizationTM process that specifically controls the grain structure of the metal to produce the highest fidelity when the signal flows in the direction of the arrows printed on
the cable. For a demonstration of this feature, compare the sound of tracks 4 and 17 on the Cable Comparator Disc. Track 4 is Wireworld Atlantis 5 in the correct direction and track 17 is the same cable reversed.
Some other brands of audio interconnects are directional because their shields are only connected at one end of the cable. The shields in Wireworld cables are connected at both ends to provide superior isolation from noise."

I've always heard it's because of the shielding. The other explanation sounds like hype to me but what the hell do I know :rolleyes:

Here's another quote:

"Press Release

SUPRA Cables First in World to Prove Directionality in Audio Cables

Supra Cables have taken part in pioneering measurements developed and conducted in a joint venture by Ben Duncan Research and Jenving Technology.

Directionality in audio cables has been controversial, particularly as no other cable maker in the world has previously been able to say what the mechanism is, let alone measure it.

Using regular lab equipment and test signals, the measurements show measurable, and repeatable quite large differences, when cables are reversed. The bottom line is the direction in which the wires inside were last 'drawn' at the copper factory. The tests even revealed conductors that had been reverse-spooled by the copper wire maker!

A proof of the forward thinking in Jenving's Supra Cables, the new test has been able to show that the conductors in all Supra production are not only already optimally 'directed', but that optimal directionality is also already correctly identified."

Anyway, if the cable does have directionality the arrows normally should point in the direction the signal is traveling, i.e. source to pre, pre to amp.

jdhdiggs

07-06-2005, 02:34 PM

I've never seen or heard of any difference by real people.

And for speaker cables, isn't direction arbitrary anyways ince the signal acts like AC?

gregure

07-06-2005, 02:43 PM

My understanding is that cables tend to get burned in, in other words they get used to the current being fed one-way. So the arrows are more to ensure that you remain consistent in your hook-ups, rather than any real difference in the actual construction of the cable. Just my understanding. I've never noticed a difference either way.

PolkThug

07-06-2005, 02:57 PM

My gear isn't expensive enough to hear which way my cable is going.

;)

heiney9

07-06-2005, 04:38 PM

I know in order to get the phase coherence and time alignment characteristics in synch, most should make sure that the magnets from you speakers are facing north, according to the arrows. Now this isn’t always possible because of the way your house is constructed, so facing them as close to the north as possible is recommended. However, the center axis of the coincident alignment of the magnetic field should never reach a value higher than twice the squared co-sign of a tangential line drawn from the center of the room.

The arrows are for signal flow. I’ve always used the cables as recommended, but have never heard a difference if they are used incorrectly. The above paragraph is my attempt at humor on a day at work that is becoming very boring.

H9

:D :p :D :p

maggiefan

07-06-2005, 09:48 PM

I think I read somewhere that on the marked cables, only one end is connected to ground for some reason, not sure why.

dorokusai

07-06-2005, 10:39 PM

That's because that is used to ground the shield, it's often called a drain wire. If you connected it at both ends, it wouldn't really serve it's purpose anymore as it would be a complete circuit and hence subject to inductance....which may or may not have an effect on the actual conductors....blah blah, you get the idea.

The arrows are usually just telling you where it's grounded.

I agree with the other folks in that I've never heard a difference one way or the other.

ezc

07-08-2005, 02:32 AM

If there is a arrow the shield or drain may be connected on one side only. The side that the shield or drain is connected on is the source. If there is no arrows the cable could be installed in any direction. If your anal like me even the cables that dont have a arrow I install in one direction, read the writing on the cable & the way it is read is the current flow direction. All my cables are hooked up that way, but again Im anal! If you look at cables with directional arrows you should notice the arrow is in the same direction as which the words are read.

mhardy6647

07-08-2005, 10:03 AM

The arrows should, as many have already pointed out, indicate directionality in terms of a shield conductor which is only connected at one end of the cable.

But, I gotta say something about this directionality business!
I don't doubt that there is some physical asymmetry in a conductor... but the AC audio waveform (EMF) doesn't 'flow in one direction'. It's effing AC! Now, I'll grant you that real music (as opposed to, say a sine wave) is asymmetric as an electrical analog waveform, but... so what!?!

Sorry, but the pseudo-science always hacks me off.

There's a post at AA today with a title to the effect of "why is it that all of these new scientific discoveries only benefit neurotic audiophiles?". The key word in these discussions, I realized, isn't audiophiles. It's neurotic.

... and I PROMISE I'm not responding to the subject of cables again.

bikezappa

07-08-2005, 04:11 PM

Laura

Did you understand any of the scientific reasons for directional RCA cords?

I didn't.

Here is the real reason for directional cables.

Marketing.

To make you buy something new that you don't need.

To make you think you have substandard equipment.

It's every where in the USA and I fall for this crap all the time too. You would think we would learn and not repeat our mistakes.

It's a little bit cheesy, but nicely displayed.

And aren't you glad you have 460 watts of reserve power and a power cord that can run an electric dryer.

Ain't this stuff fun.

dorokusai

07-08-2005, 05:20 PM

If you don't get it, then you must have reading comprehension issues. Also note that noone in this thread sells cables or markets them, nor has anyone advocated their use over another.

Class dismissed.

bikezappa

07-08-2005, 05:40 PM

A ground wire is a ground wire, is a ground wire.....

What differance is there between the pre amp ground and the amp ground and the CD ground and the turntable ground....?

Is one ground better than the other? Why?

Has any one claimed to hear an audio differance when connecting cables in different directions?

Just pointing out BS when I see it.

Never said anyone sells cables here.

I also said I have fallen for this crap science before.

We are all under the marketing forces that want us to buy stuff we don't need and that doesn't work.

Remember the thigh master.

jdhdiggs

07-08-2005, 05:42 PM

Mark's higher up post nailed it. The shielding is picking up whatever contaminating signals around and dumping them down the drain. Not 100% correct, but look at it as an antanna for the bad stuff.

It does need to be hooked up only on one end. I played with this on some homegrown cables and the noisefloor was reduced if connected on one side (didn't matter which) that the system with both sides connected or neither.

All in all though, if I wasn't really hunting for these differences, they would have been impossible to pick out.

ND13

07-08-2005, 05:43 PM

Hey now keep Suzanne Somers out of this.

bikezappa

07-08-2005, 05:51 PM

What is Suzanne Summers selling these days? I think I heard that she had cancer on H Stern show. That sucks.

Maybe she recovered and is selling a book to cure cancer.

dorokusai

07-08-2005, 05:51 PM

That thigh master works damnit!

ND13

07-08-2005, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by bikezappa
What is Suzanne Summers selling these days? I think I heard that she had cancer on H Stern show. That sucks.

Maybe she recovered and is selling a book to cure cancer.

Chrissy can peddle anything she wants. She actually,IMO, looks better with age. Although, it could all be the camera and Hollywood.

michael_w

07-08-2005, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by dorokusai
That thigh master works damnit!

So does that explain the pantless audio sessions? Just showin off your Suzanne Summers thighs? :D

heiney9

07-08-2005, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by michael_w
So does that explain the pantless audio sessions? Just showin off your Suzanne Summers thighs? :D

Uhhhh....Let's not go down that path, having bad visions right now :eek:

H9

dragon1952

07-29-2005, 02:26 PM

As I (and a few others) stated earlier in this thread, I always thought that the directional arrows were supposed to be pointed in the direction the signal was flowing. That may be the case for unshielded cables but here's a couple quotes I recently found regarding shielded cables with grounds connected at one end (like my DH Labs BL-1's)
From Audiogon:
"IC arrow indications depend on the manufacturer. Most use the Bruce Brisson design (he designed Monster Cable, then MIT) With these, the shield is connected at the arrowhead end, and not at the arrowtail end. The arrowhead end should be at the preamp because for lowest hum, the preamp should be the only component grounded at the wall, and therefore, you want all currents from the shields to drain out through the preamp ground. This means that the IC connecting the preamp to the amp should also have its arrowhead pointed to the preamp -- so (even though it's counterintuitive) it really has nothing to do with direction of signal flow."

From a review of BL-1's:
"If the BL-1 is used in an unbalanced application (e.g., most home installations), the shield should float at one end. On the source end, connect both the black center conductor and the drain wire to the shield of the RCA connector. On the load end, leave the drain wire unconnected. In this configuration, the BL-1 has a capacitance of about 44pF/ft. I recommend using a small piece of heat shrink tubing to make sure the drain wire remains insulated on the load end of the cable. The arrows printed on the cable should point toward the load. The cable isn't manufactured with directional characteristics, but the arrows provide an easy means of identifying the load end once the cable has been fitted with RCA connectors."

I think both of these comments say the same thing....that the arrow, (in the case of a shielded cable grounded at one end) should point to the preamp from the source (which happens to be with the signal flow) and also should point to the preamp from the amp (opposite from the signal flow) because of the reasons listed.
That's assuming, of course, that the person who assembled the cable connected the ground at the tail end of the arrow like the reviewer describes.
It's also assuming, of course, that I read (and understood) these comments correctly.
Just thought I'd pass this on to further muddle things up.

madmax

07-29-2005, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by dragon1952
Just thought I'd pass this on to further muddle things up.

Good info! I've noticed lately when people don't understand something it is being refered to as snake oil. They seem to not want to learn anything which is not easily evident to them...

madmax

heiney9

07-29-2005, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by madmax
Good info! I've noticed lately when people don't understand something it is being refered to as snake oil. They seem to not want to learn anything which is not easily evident to them...

madmax

Good info indeed! As for snake oil comments as pertaining to cables, you can thank some of the manufacturer's for that. Some have made some extremely outrageous claims that are just bald faced lies and made up terminology. There are certainly some advantages to higher priced/better designed cables. Some manufacturer's are very credible in thier claims, others are just out to seperate you from your money. FYI, I understand plenty but I still have my own opinion on this subject.

H9

madmax

07-29-2005, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by heiney9
FYI, I understand plenty but I still have my own opinion on this subject.

H9

So what is your opinion?
madmax

bikezappa

07-29-2005, 04:32 PM

There is nothing wrong with healthy skepticism with regard to audio equipment and other things in life. When some one states something that contradicts your past experience then you should be skeptical. That doesn't mean however that you need to immediately get into a name calling game. There is much to be learned from others experiences and observations.

That's why we have this forum.

I would suggest that we all try and ask what data you have to support your observation. Yes it would be nice to measure this experience but that sometimes isn't possible and we must trust our ears to control our pocket book. Also remember that marketing people are very smart and greedy.

Common sense and skepticism go hand in hand.

I'm 56 years old and have worked in the physics of ceramic material science for over 30 years. I have been listening to and buying audio equipment for 40 years. I have bought lots of good and bad equipment. The concept that a line cord connecting the equipment to the wall outlet can improve the sound makes no sense to me. That's because the line cord wire and the wire connecting to your home are in SERIES, that means that the electrons are doing the same thing in each wire. That is basic EE science. Both things are passive materials with no amplification.

The concept and usage of double blind testing has been the foundation of good science and medicine since Galileo. Would you take medicine that has not been tested in a blind test? Would you fly in an airplane that has not been designed and built with materials that have passed the blind test? I think not.

I would welcome test results from anyone doing a QUALFIED single or double blind test in their home or anywhere else to determine if they can hear differences between equipment. You can't do this test alone however, but need an unbiased assistant familar with the test protocol. The results would be very interesting. Let's do it, I will help. I'm in S NH.

I'm not saying that, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist, OK. There are many things that exist that we can't measure or understand.

I'm saying, if you can hear the differnce then that can be measured with qulified blind testing.

Peace

heiney9

07-29-2005, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by madmax
So what is your opinion?
madmax

First of all I think it’s a personal choice. If you can hear a difference in YOUR system in YOUR environment then it’s worthwhile to that individual. I also think you need to have a high resolution system that is already tweaked to take advantage of a better cable design. All the claims made about better noise rejection both RF and EMI are certainly true. I believe that with every system there is a point of diminishing returns. I use Proflex interconnects. They work great even though I don’t hear any difference over the Monsters I used to use. Both the Proflex and Monsters were free. Believe me I know how maligned Monster is, but they served their purpose well. They were free and, NO I wouldn’t pay money for them…I’d choose something else for the same $$$. My pre-amp and DAC have removable power cables never felt a need to replace them w/ a more expensive cable. My personal feeling is until I upgrade my system, especially my speakers, spending several hundreds of dollars on cables just isn’t going give me the return on investment if feel is necessary. Should everyone seek out better cables….absolutely to a point, but only the individual can decide if spending BIG bucks on this piece of the audio chain is worthwhile.

Also FWIW, either F1 or Max mentioned (in another thread) something about putting up some money to compare cables. I absolutely agree that any test needs to be done using ones own environment/equipment/music as this is the only intelligent way to do a compare. We as individuals know every nuance of our system in our own listening environment. I would never want to compare anything unless it was in my own arena. There are just too many other variables involved to invalidate any results positive or negative. So there you have it……I’ve got my nut sack caught on the fence. :eek:

H9

madmax

07-29-2005, 05:57 PM

heiney9

07-30-2005, 10:00 AM

So if I read this correctly... it is your opinion that sound differences are possible but if the rest of a system isn't up to it then it is not worthwhile to spend additional big dollars on cables because you wont hear it?

madmax

Yes, that’s basically what I’m stating as my opinion. If you have a cheap receiver, cheap speakers and cheap CD player why spend a couple hundred bucks on cables. Makes no sense…take that money and spend it on the components until you have a system that might benefit from upgraded cables. You will certainly get more benefit from buying higher grade components than you will using low grade components and high dollar cables. It’s been said here before…it’s all about the synergy and all the pieces working together to the benefit the whole.

It would be less than ideal to own a Conrad Johnson amp and use “out of the box” patch cords to connect to the pre. Just as it would be silly to own a few hundred dollars worth of components and use a few hundred dollars worth of cables to connect them with. It’s not my intention to reduce this to a $$$ issue, it’s just the best way to get my point across. Cables are always going to have a sonic signature…can differences be heard? depends on your system, your ears and your belief. Unfortunately the cable/interconnect industry has made it very hard to discern between the truth and the sales pitch, and that’s where much of my personal skepticism comes from.

H9

dorokusai

07-30-2005, 04:50 PM

I'm wondering how many times we're going to comment on the directional arrow on a interconnect? This was explained awhile ago....or is everyone just on drugs?

In addition, Bruce Brisson didn't design Monster Cable as Noel Lee is actually quite educated. MC used a few of Bruce's designs in their cables, not the other way around.

dragon1952

07-30-2005, 05:07 PM

Well the only reason I brought it up again was because what was stated in the two comments I posted hadn't been stated before in that way. That the arrows (if used to indicate which direction the ground is) should all point to the load, not necessarily in the same direction throughout the system.

heiney9

07-30-2005, 06:33 PM

Seems to me we were able to squeeze out just a little bit more info/opinion. Geez, I didn't know there was a limit on how much/many times we could discuss something. Overkill is the theme around here most of the time ;)

Damn looks like I just added to this thread again :eek:

H9

P.S. for the record I wasn't commenting on the direction of the arrows :p

dragon1952

07-30-2005, 07:02 PM

Maybe they should be painted in Glo-paint and point the way to the bathroom in case you're watching a movie in the dark.

bknauss

07-31-2005, 12:16 AM

disneyjoe7

07-31-2005, 12:53 AM

BS I say not, in the Telecommunication sector of the world. The ground in on the source side only, on important signals like clocking and such.

dorokusai

07-31-2005, 01:12 AM

Directionality of cables is BS (well, typical cables at least). If the designers of military grade equipment don't worry about which way they point their cables, then we sure as heck shouldn't worry about it.

Now cables like some MITs have a circuit in them, so hooking them up backwards would be bad.

MIT networks are passive, and you won't harm anything by using them backwards.

How can you compare a military grade connection to a consumer grade connection? You're just generalizing, as their are more variables than a ground wire termination in the construction of any type of cables and/or connections.

bknauss

07-31-2005, 10:22 AM

I was saying you shouldn't hookup MITs backwards because, if I remember correctly, they're more or less an RLC filter... and you won't get the same response forward and backward.

And yes, it was a huge generalization. It would take a couple pages to go in depth into each sector of business that uses cables and their practices.

And yes, I did overlook grounding techniques. Oops... these types of posts pop up when you've been painting a house for several hours and its late at night :)

dorokusai

07-31-2005, 12:09 PM

Painting? Ugh, I hate painting.

As far as the MIT, I just meant you wouldn't blow anything up by hooking them up backwards.

disneyjoe7

07-31-2005, 12:19 PM

So if I connected / broke in a set of AudioQuest Diamond backs backwards, I thought that the arrow was the direction of signal flow not the ground end. :(

Should I now reverse them or forget it.

disneyjoe7

07-31-2005, 06:11 PM

So if I connected / broke in a set of AudioQuest Diamond backs backwards, I thought that the arrow was the direction of signal flow not the ground end. :(

Should I now reverse them or forget it.

Ok, I'm not trying to be an A$$ ok. I know to feeling is that it doesn't make any difference, but I ask because of some noise at times so this may be my problem. So if a cable is broken in one direction can you re-break it in the other direction?

madmax

07-31-2005, 06:59 PM

Whether it really makes a difference or not you should shoot for the proper orientation.

Remember, a good system doesn't always sound better with the addition of one tweek. It is the combination of multiple tweeks that really makes the difference. (I stole that remark from F1Nut).

madmax

dorokusai

07-31-2005, 07:03 PM

disneyjoe7

07-31-2005, 07:19 PM

Audioquest uses that arrow for more than a grounding reason, so from their perspective use the arrow as it is defined by Audioquest....signal flow. They also say that a cable can change state if it is unused, thus it can "break-in" or "adjust" again. Just go with the signal flow idea, and don't worry about it anymore.

Thanks guys,

I will keep the Audioquest Diamond Back cables in the direction I have them in. The Arrow is facing the signal way, so on AQ cables the arrow is not for the ground end?

bvette94

08-05-2005, 03:18 PM

PolkThug

08-05-2005, 03:35 PM

bvette94

08-05-2005, 10:38 PM

Just make sure that if you move south of the equator, to re-twist the wires in the opposite direction.

yea that is helpful.

dragon1952

08-06-2005, 12:39 AM

Imo i think the cable is designed in a fashion to keep out interfearence. The way the wires are twisted. if you plug all of your cables in the direction that the arrows show any innerfearence would deflect out and away from the cable. It would be like sticking two magnets together. sort of like the telephone cat 5 wiring principle. IF you wire your system like this it is one less source of interfearence or unwanted noise.

If you read the previous posts you would have found that sometimes the arrows are to reference the ground, sometimes just informational for those that wish to connect them the same way everytime and sometimes because the manufacturer states that their design is optimal if the same direction is always maintained. Directionality, as it pertains to interference rejection, is immaterial for unshielded cables. Twisting can help with interference but an unshielded cable using twisting for RFI rejection is non-directional. How can an unshielded cable that uses twists possibly be directional? It's exactly the same in both directions. You can't make a general statement like that regarding arrows when there are multiple reasons for putting them there in the first place. You have a lot of nerve dissing Polk Thugs remark. You can't even spell interference correctly let alone the same way twice :rolleyes: