RTi6 Woofer is funky

[Mjr7531]

Well I got my HK235, and I decided to try this sucker out with some Aaron Copland -
"A Fanfare for the Common Man"
I sat down, ready to be enveloped in Kettle Drums, Bass Drums and a Gong, all at the same time!
But lord know how lucky I am, I bought a floor model RTi6 from CC (their last pair, they had others in inventory but they had disapeared :rolleyes: ) And it makes a flopping noise, the kind of noise you get when you overdrive your sub, not a "clink" but just that big distortion sound, but I wasn't driving the speaker near to capacity and the other RTi6 was handling it just fine. Now I'm just worried that I may have done something to the speakers myself, or if this has been here and I may have just noticed (Point of interest - I've played the 1812 Overture on my R20s and never had problems, not saying I don't treat my speakers with care)

Any ideas? If you could ask more questions to clarify, that would be great, perhaps I'll find out whether I need to replace, or change something.

[Mjr7531]

Points of interest:

- I beleive that the woofer was at one point overtightened, I fixed all of that immediately when I took them home the first day (goodness knows how long they have been sitting like that though)

- I am running these two champs without a sub (and they still sound great
:p well, minus the one glitch)

- The rumble, bottoming out, whatever you want to call it only happened in the hardest transient strikes in the Fanfare, I haven't tested much beyond this though, I got afraid, however, they weren't giving me problems when my sibs were watching The Matrix.

Many thanks guys,
Matt

[F1nut]

How high was the volume? Less than halfway, halfway or more than halfway?

[Mjr7531]

In case you aren't familiar with the system for the AVR235 It's -80 to 10.
The problems onset at -20 and become bad at -10. The L/R balance is shifted all the way to the right to isolate the channel but the tone controls are left at neutral.
Even if the signal is on the quieter side, it was from my DVD player, could it be amp distortion? Or should I face the fact that I'm overdriving my speakers?
Thanks again,
Matt

[F1nut]

You are correct, I'm not familiar with that unit at all and for the life of me I don't understand why they do that -80 to 10 crap on AVR's. If we assume a 90 point scale, then -45 is halfway and if that's the case at -20/-10 you are clipping the hell out of the AVR.

[Mjr7531]

Thank-you I feel much better about it now, I think I can even sleep. :)

Many thanks,
Matt

[TheReaper]

On a linear -80 to 10 scale:

-35 = 1/2
-20 = 2/3
-12 = 3/4

[aaharvel]

Originally posted by F1nut
You are correct, I'm not familiar with that unit at all and for the life of me I don't understand why they do that -80 to 10 crap on AVR's.

+1
I can't stand the volume control on my H/K. I usually have it between -40 and -20. Never over -20. :)

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

12 Oclock is 0 on a receiver - IE: Reference Level - from what I understand it... Which is why the +1 figures come up after 0, its where on a analog knob that distortion would start kicking in.

I like my B&K's volume control - very precision oriented...


Sounds like the woofer was just reaching its limits dude, spider couldnt control the woofer nooo more.

Which isn't a good thing - that is probally permanent damage...and the more it occurs, the more it will do it naturally...

So I would probally contact Ken and talk about getting a new Midbass, IMO.

[aaharvel]

thanks for the info Sid.

[Loud & Clear]

I agree with Sid on both counts. I thought that '0' was reference level, and that going beyond that would be the point where things start getting dicey. And yeah, that driver is likely going to be problematic from here on out. I'd also bet that driver took some damage before you got it. But running those kettle drums full range on small bookshelves is dangerous at -10, good driver or not, imo. Get a sub or bigger speakers.

[ND13]

Originally posted by Loud & Clear
I agree with Sid on both counts. I thought that '0' was reference level, and that going beyond that would be the point where things start getting dicey. And yeah, that driver is likely going to be problematic from here on out. I'd also bet that driver took some damage before you got it. But running those kettle drums full range on small bookshelves is dangerous at -10, good driver or not, imo. Get a sub or bigger speakers.

+1

[aaharvel]

hey thanks for the P/M ND13.

[disneyjoe7]

Originally posted by Loud & Clear
I agree with Sid on both counts. I thought that '0' was reference level, and that going beyond that would be the point where things start getting dicey. And yeah, that driver is likely going to be problematic from here on out. I'd also bet that driver took some damage before you got it. But running those kettle drums full range on small bookshelves is dangerous at -10, good driver or not, imo. Get a sub or bigger speakers.


+2 Good point Sid :)

[F1nut]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
12 Oclock is 0 on a receiver - IE: Reference Level - from what I understand it... Which is why the +1 figures come up after 0, its where on a analog knob that distortion would start kicking in.



It makes no sense that 0 is 12 o'clock and only has 10 clicks after it.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Zero = Reference Level
12 Oclock = Reference Level

And why on gods earth would they make receivers go to +80... That would be ungodly amounts of distortion.

Sorry you had to learn that your analog knob is so flawed! ;) ;)

[aaharvel]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Zero = Reference Level
12 Oclock = Reference Level

And why on gods earth would they make receivers go to +80... That would be ungodly amounts of distortion.

:p

btw- what is reference level in dbs? 85db?

[disneyjoe7]

Originally posted by F1nut
It makes no sense that 0 is 12 o'clock and only has 10 clicks after it.


F1nut,

It makes sense to me, with these newer digital AVR volume controls. If 12 o'clock is peak on a older AVR then it's 0 in all other terms. If I set my Onyko for either Relative or Absolute, relative 0 is reference when set to absolute setting.

So why not?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Jesse,

You have to understand that -45 on these receivers is like 60 db.... PEAKS...

and that is NOT** 12 Oclock or Reference level, not even close...

Digital Volume controls are MUCH different from analog.

[disneyjoe7]

Originally posted by disneyjoe7
If I set my Onyko for either Relative or Absolute, relative 0 is reference when set to absolute setting.




Sid,

I did this right now, so do I need a new pair of Glasses? or more Coffee, my power is on Dennis hasn't killed it yet.

So did I see something wrong I don't think so. Maybe Onkyo is different but I'm agreeing with you.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Ah man...

My response was to Jesse...

Not you :)

Sorry for the confusion!

Reference level is VERY loud, something like 110+ db peaks. - might be 115 db peaks.

[F1nut]

You know what, you can keep your digital volume control and it's effed up reference levels. I'll keep spinning my analog volume knob. Let's see, if 110dB is reference level that would be about 10:30 on my control. :D

[BobMcG]

In actual practice it all seems relevant to me. Relevant as to the sensitivity of the speakers you're driving that is as to where things start to get crazy. (The recording level of the source can change the saturation point too.) Zero may be called the reference point but...

Operate a pair of 85db speaks at 0db and then try the same thing with a pair of 93db speaks. You can get away with it with the 85s. Think you have to wait until 0db for things to get dicey with the 93s?

[ND13]

Originally posted by BobMcG
In actual practice it all seems relevant to me. Relevant as to the sensitivity of the speakers you're driving that is as to where things start to get crazy. (The recording level of the source can change the saturation point too.) Zero may be called the reference point but...

Operate a pair of 85db speaks at 0db and then try the same thing with a pair of 93db speaks. You can get away with it with the 85s. Think you have to wait until 0db for things to get dicey with the 93s?

Sounds right to me.

[Mjr7531]

Alright, let me get this straight,

'0' is ok on the receiver? I was wondering where reference is, and chances are I'll be using it at reference when I watch movies occasionally. Don't worry guys, I'm just between subs right now, I'm going to a SVS PB12-ISD/2 so I won't be blowing any speakers.

My largest concern is that I've played the Telarc 1812 Overture on my RTi6s and never had any problems (Maybe this is the red flag?), so why on earth would there be something wrong with them now? I don't abuse these little things nor had I run them anywhere near capacity (I don't think...) Could it just be time catching up with em' or is it perhaps the demo-room past?

Thanks for your guy's advice,
Matt

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Reference Level is when the amp is using all it has - it is doing all it can. Your speakers wont nessicarially be taxing - but the amp section will be.

Of course a 93db pair of speakers will be louder at reference...:p

But it is more so an amp reference, not speaker...

I personally never get to reference level unless the recording is really compressed. But I have my preamp set to not go past 0 either. I'm usually at -12 to -16 db.

As for why your RTi6 is now just showing its downsides... it is probally the first time you have been able to hear it. There is all kinds of distortion we cant pick out from what I have read. It just now may be getting messed up to where you can hear it.

However... I have ran many speakers on large - from towers to bookshelfs were NO problems like that ever. But it may be wise to replace that midbass.

By the way, ref. level is very loud and dangerous for your gear. I don't recomend running it - I would stick to what is comfortable to you.

[BobMcG]

I realize the 0db reference point refers to the amp and not the speakers. I wouldn't question that fact. That's why I started my comments the way I did. I wanted to show why the reference point was kind of a moot point or a practically unattainable point when most systems can't reach it in the first place by giving an example of why different systems can go to pieces at different levels on the way there.

BTW: I've always had my pre set to not go beyond +3 not that I ever thought I was going there but, with my 2.3s (*depending on the recording) I can run -10 and to -7 no problem. Crystal clear and clean. Now with the Amazings (*) I can run -7 to -3 with the same results as the 2.3s. I can go to 0db with at least two recordings I've found so far without the hint of a problem. I never thought it was possible. That's why I said in practice it's all relevent.

[TheReaper]

This is my understanding of the relative scale, it may be wrong:

The relative scale is made to 'mimic' an audio volume knob, where negative numbers are attenuation and positive numbers are gain.

The typical volume scale follows a relative decibel scale so it sounds linear. But power wise, this scale is logarithmic, each step is something like 10 times more power.

A typical relative scale could go from -80 to +10 for 90 increments (-83 to +16 for 99 increments).

Referance level 0, theoretically, this is where for digital media the intended volume of 83dB, comes out as 83dB (this is relative power, actual volume depends on your equipment).

At referance level, there is no head room, but theoretically for digital signals you shouldn't need any. Theoretically the maximum digital volume value, should not exceed the receiver's amplifier capabilities at referance level (right at the limit).

In reality, this magical digital referance level can vary from receiver to receiver (esp dif manufacturers), typically from -10 to +5.

For direct analog signals (bypassing ADC), receivers usually lower the imput levels a set amount, so that some headroom is available at referance level. But it is possible for analog signals to clip, adjust your volume accordingly.

[Willow]

I think Vr3 is correct about the spyder. I had a siliar prob with my rti4s We were watching a movie not loud at all and hear a rattle I thought it was the movie, but it got worse. Called polk CS they gave me a number to call got a new driver all is well.