Stereo Subwoofers with 4 ASCENDANT AUDIO 12" drivers each

[hoosier21]

I got a subwoofer project going on right now. I am building a pair of subwoofers using 4 ASCENDANT AUDIO 12" drivers in each subwoofer, for a total of 8 drivers, woohoo.

Everything is cut, and needs to be glued. Picture is of one of the subwoofer's inner cabinet, got to add the outer layer for 1.5" thick cabinet. I am building two of these for a stereo set.

Not much to report just yet, but I am still stuck on how to finish these. Don't really want black. Veneering them is most likely, but $$. I have a neighbor who does body work and painting, thinking of wiping these down with body putty, sanding them smooth and giving them pearl white paint job. I am planning on NOT having grills, and think the white cabinet and the four black drivers might look pretty cool.

Suggestions?

Ideas?

Bring it on.

[tecmo04]

that would look dam sexy i think. where are u going to put those monsters??

[Early B.]

Oh my goodness!! A pair of subwoofers with 4 drivers each -- I love it!!!!

Will some of the drivers be passive?
What amp are you gonna use?
How large is the room you gonna put them in?

I'd go with a darker color -- maybe silver or gray.

Give us lots of pics, please.

[hoosier21]

Oh my goodness!! A pair of subwoofers with 4 drivers each -- I love it!!!!

Will some of the drivers be passive? No all will be active, no PR's
What amp are you gonna use? Searching for it now, maybe a Pro amp but I don't like the fan noise issue.
How large is the room you gonna put them in? Right now it is huge, a central room with 5 rooms connected.
Give us lots of pics, please. Will do

My goal is not huge output, I am looking for TIGHT TIGHT bass, and hoping the 8 drivers will fill the room without large excursions, a walk in the park is the goal.

Here is PDF of the cabinet, Per Chad at Ascendant Audio, they are 4 separate sealed compartments with a 1 cubic foot volume each.

[tryrrthg]

Very cool project! This is KILLING me. I can't wait to start on my Atlas 15 project!

Are you going to be stuffing the cabinets with polyfil?

Can you put the pro amp in another room? Closet? basement? any of those would be an option to kill the fan noise.

[hoosier21]

Very cool project! This is KILLING me. I can't wait to start on my Atlas 15 project! Wish you were closer, I got lots of MDF scrap

Are you going to be stuffing the cabinets with polyfil? 1lb each compartment

Can you put the pro amp in another room? Closet? basement? any of those would be an option to kill the fan noise. maybe, no, my room is in the basement


Might bite the bullet and get a pair of the 1000w plate amps from P.E.? who knows

[tryrrthg]

Might bite the bullet and get a pair of the 1000w plate amps from P.E.? who knows
For that monster sub I think I'd with out a doubt go with the pro amp. The pro amp is probably a better investement anyway.

Just splurge for a Crown K1 or K2! ;) You should be able to find a used Crown K1 for the price of two 1000W plate amps. That would be the way to go (no fan in the K series).

What would you be using for a crossover? Any EQ in the mix?

[Early B.]

My goal is not huge output, I am looking for TIGHT TIGHT bass, and hoping the 8 drivers will fill the room without large excursions, a walk in the park is the goal.

Well, you definitely chose the right driver for super tight bass. I've used the 12" Ascendant Audio driver and it was much tighter than the SVS ISD driver I replaced it with. Sounded better, too.

How low do you expect them to go?

[madmax]

How about granite or marble looking laminant like you use on counter tops? Get a router and it should be a piece of cake. Wouldn't paint crack around all the wood joints after a few rough bass songs?
madmax

[gmorris]

i think your idea of having the neighbor paint them is the best. I would go with a Mercedes gray or something.

I have my single Atlas 15 pounding away, and tight bass is all you get. You must be crazy using 8 12's. My single 15 sounds great, I can only imagine what 8 12's will sound like. Good luck and don't go deaf, or stop you heart from beating.

[Airplay355]

tryin to 1 up ganzo? i thought 4 18's was crazy, but 8 12's seems even crazier....good luck

[Polkersince85]

I wouldn't worry so much for the cabinets cracking as I would for the load bearing walls in the house. I'm thinking butcher block maple panels, dovetailed joints, and about 40 sawblades.

[michael_w]

That will be crazy... as for a paint job I'm not sure what would look best with that. Hell, I'm still trying to decide how to finish my atlas 15 box :p

[hoosier21]

Just splurge for a Crown K1 or K2! ;) You should be able to find a used Crown K1 for the price of two 1000W plate amps. That would be the way to go (no fan in the K series).

What would you be using for a crossover? Any EQ in the mix?

A Crown would be nice, there are 3 K1 on the bay for 750.00 BIN, hmmm

I need a crossover and I am sure an EQ would help, as I have horrible room.

I had a Outlaw before for the crossover, will get one of those again.

ACI's R-DES is cool, but a little steep for an EQ
http://www.audioc.com/accessories1/rdes/rdes.htm

BFD is the most likely, it's cheap and works.
I had a Outlaw before for the crossover, will get one of those again.



Thanks for the ideas and support guys.

[gatemplin]

Hi Russ,

Cool project. I remember when you were still considering the Peerless drivers. :)

A BFD would be perfect here, I've tried to EQ two subs before (1 for each engine) it turned out fine.

As for the finish, auto paint would be sweet, but bondo is a bitch and the surfaces need to be mirror smooth. That takes a lot of work.

I've tried red oak veneer, Krylon textured finish, and truck bed liner on subs. Consider the Krylon, very durable and it comes in a variety of colours. It also hides mistakes very well. Just my two cents.

[madmax]

I need a crossover and I am sure an EQ would help


Cough, cough...

madmax

[hoosier21]

Cough, cough...

madmax


Subwoofer only

[amulford]

How are they going to be wired? What kind of load will you end up with? And why are you doing a stereo pair? Won't that give you cancellation problems?

I like the idea. I got my eye on this.

For finish, I'd go with laminate veneer. It shouldn't be too expensive, you just have to shop around.

[madmax]

Subwoofer only


Yep, not the one you may be thinking of. I tried to send you a pic but the email wasn't delivered. Have you changed it lately?

madmax

[hoosier21]

Yep, not the one you may be thinking of. I tried to send you a pic but the email wasn't delivered. Have you changed it lately?

madmax

Our email at work is screwed right now, but try again. rabernathy @ aseng.com

[madmax]

Here is the controller. I'll try email again later.

http://www.hometheateraudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=19890&d_Id=5648&l1=5648&l2=

[hoosier21]

How are they going to be wired? What kind of load will you end up with? They are 4 ohm speakers, I will wire them for a 4 ohm total load And why are you doing a stereo pair? When I have had a single sub, even if the sound is non dirctional, the pressure is not, I can feel the sub over on one side, so I wanted two Won't that give you cancellation problems? Hope not, why do you think it would? You have two columns of sub drivers on your Carvers

I like the idea. I got my eye on this.

For finish, I'd go with laminate veneer. It shouldn't be too expensive, you just have to shop around. Wouldn't the seams show as a black line

Russ

[amulford]

When I have had a single sub, even if the sound is non dirctional, the pressure is not, I can feel the sub over on one side, so I wanted two - Oh cool, I can dig that.

Hope not, why do you think it would? You have two columns of sub drivers on your Carvers - Yes your right, I see what your saying.


Wouldn't the seams show as a black line - What seams? You can get sheets 4' X 8', the only seams would be on the edges. And they hide well.

[hoosier21]

Seams on the edges is what I was thinking, how do you hide them?

[madmax]

Colored glue?

[amulford]

No colored glue. When you do the veneer, put the large area on first. Then use a laminate trimmer. Then do the edge (it will cover the sheet piece) and clamp it tight. Trim it then sand the corner a little bit to blend it. The seam will be almost invisible.

Or you could band it the face with real wood. but you'll still have a seam.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Stereo Subwoofers -

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=36397

Get to reading...

[madmax]

Great link Sid! I didn't realize about the phase differences mixing between left and right channels when feeding a single sub. That pretty much talked me into a stereo sub over a mono one.
madmax

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

This is almost tempting for me to get another sub after I get my power cords...

Glad you folks enjoyed the link...

[amulford]

Does make alot of sense. Especially for accoustical recordings.

[Early B.]

Dammit, Sid! Now I gotta build another sub.

[amulford]

I'm kind of lucky in that regard ;)

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Dammit, Sid! Now I gotta build another sub.

Don't worry, I gotta buy another SVS...

Dual SVS's would be SWEET.

[michael_w]

Great article Sid. Now where can I find another atlas 15 for cheap?? :p I don't suppose using my old athena sub8 would work very well since there is no way it could keep up with the atlas. (plus it doesn't sound nearly as good)

[amulford]

How are they coming Russ?

[hoosier21]

slowly, got a full day of working on them today.

[TroyD]

Jesus man, don't you EVER clean your garage?? ;)

BDT

[hoosier21]

Jesus man, don't you EVER clean your garage?? ;)

BDT

I was actually in the middle of cleaning it up when I started this project, MAJOR clean up is needed now.

Snapped a picture of the cabinets today, miss post them later, wait till you see it them 1" of dust covering everything in site, plus tools laying everywhere.

[amulford]

Jesus man, don't you EVER clean your garage?? ;)

BDT

Hey, some of us keep the "boss" IN the house :D

Mine gets so mad SHE cleans it :cool:

[amulford]

Here's a 1000W plate from PE on the "cheap"

http://classifieds.mtbr.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.pl?db=Audio&website=AudioReview&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=11800&query=retrieval

[hoosier21]

Nothing too special going on yet. I forgot how much sanding is involved, these are big and times 2. Finding time to work on these is getting hard, mostly later in the evenings, which happens to be beer time also, so the two work against each other. Hoosier21 gets lazy when drinking beer. I WILL have these ready for primer by the weekend. Textured paint is starting to take the lead on the finish, I am afraid I will get tired of sanding before I get them "right" and may need the help of the texture to hide poorly aligned joints.

[madmax]

Get a router and recess those drivers in the front panel!
madmax

[hoosier21]

Get a router and recess those drivers in the front panel!
madmax

I was going to, but I really think these drivers will look better surface mounted without the recess. I might still, who knows, I am am already pushing my limits on how long I can wait to move these inside and hook them up.

[anonymouse]

I was going to, but I really think these drivers will look better surface mounted without the recess. I might still, who knows, I am am already pushing my limits on how long I can wait to move these inside and hook them up.

You could recess them easily without a router by just putting another piece of plyboard on top of the front with cutouts to match the outer circumference of the drivers. The drivers would bolt to the main enclosure and the additional plyboard will recess the rims. Just make sure that the new sheet is glued down tight with gorilla glue.

[madmax]

So how are you placing these? Upright or laying down? How long before you get thrown out of the house? :)
madmax

[hoosier21]

So how are you placing these? Upright or laying down? How long before you get thrown out of the house? :)
madmax

Upright

I am sure it will be the same night I take them in.

[amulford]

I am sure it will the same night I take them in.


Maybe you better get that garage cleaned up, huh? :D

[95Honda]

How are they going to be wired? What kind of load will you end up with? And why are you doing a stereo pair? Won't that give you cancellation problems?

I like the idea. I got my eye on this.

For finish, I'd go with laminate veneer. It shouldn't be too expensive, you just have to shop around.


Stereo subs is the way to go.....

I have my pair of Tumults in EBS alignments seeing 2.5KW per driver. I tried one to start with, there is just something better about having a stereo pair....

[nadams]

:O

Those are truely nice looking speakers, 95Honda. How do you keep pictures on top, though? :D

[95Honda]

Thanks!

The cabinets are 2" thick, heavily braced and spiked to the floor. They don't really move much at all. At full output they vibrate a little, but not too much.

A few months ago we brought a Termlab SPL meter to my house and with 5KW they reached 126db @ 20Hz at my listening position which is about 8' centered in front of them. They have a pretty healthy output.....

They are tuned at 16.5Hz. they can only handle that kind of power right at or a little above tuning. Normally they aren't played to those levels anyway...

[nellis8166]

Pretty healty output??? That may be the understatement of the day. Nice set-up 95Honda.

[amulford]

Well??? How are they coming??

[hoosier21]

Well??? How are they coming??

Should be ready first quarter of 2006.

Actually should have been done this weekend, but other things got in the way. they are painted, waiting on some binding posts to get here Wens. and then I am set to wire them. I would say Wens. night they will be fired up and tested.

[amulford]

Did you get the neighbor to paint them for ya? Pics when you get the chance, please.

[hoosier21]

OK they are done. I will say the project was fun/a pain in the a$$/rewarding/expensive.

Quick run down on costs:
3/4 MDF, it took 6 sheet of this stuff @ 25.00 a sheet, I wanted 1.5" cabinet and the sizes of the panels made it a very wasteful.

Drivers, even with the sale, these 8 drivers were 960.00 delivered.

Finish, I ended up using teh Rustoleum "hammered look" in black, great finish, but at 5.89 a can, my poor painting skills, frigging bugs landing on wet paint, I ended up using 12 cans.

Glue, screws, sandpaper??? say 20.00

I needed an amp, 600.00 ( this will go up as the Crown is for sale and I am looking for a fanless replacement)

I needed a crossover, I bought a new Outlaw ICBM 275.00 delivered

Grand total = around $ 2000.00

These where a bear moving around to sand and paint, then I loaded the drivers and damn! I had to call in some help to move them in the house, serious weight.


Was it worth it? So far I really like what I hear, too soon to tell as the drivers are not brooken in completely, but I have mostly what I was searching for, TIGHT BASS, it is very fast, and when asked it will fill the horrible room I have for my stereo.

Here is a picture of one, I would take a picture of the other, but it look the same. I really like the look of these, the paint finish is cool and the exposed drivers look mean as hell. I just took the Crown amp out of the rig, so not wire management comments, :D

Thanks for looking

[ND13]

Wow!!!!!

You need to rent a SEMI so you can bring those with you to Polkfest, so you can show them off :D

[RuSsMaN]

Those look friggin great man.

[Schris22]

wow indeed!

Just reinforce your walls and foundation! j/k of course....not really...=P

Wish I could hear them

Congrats!

Chris

[dholmes]

You said you have two of them!! They look great!! Where in your theater did you place them?

[madmax]

VERY NICE! I especially like those rounded edges. When you play them do you get the feeling you are not pushing them at all?
madmax

[hoosier21]

Thanks for all comments guys, I like the way they turned out also.

ND13 - taking them to Mark's would be cool
dholmes - not going to use them for HT, I built them for my 2 channel rig
madmax - not pushing them at all, that was a goal, to get all the bass I needed or wanted without straining the subs, the drivers are hardly moving, until I get stupid and "hey, ya'll what this".

[dholmes]

Are you going to connect them at your pre-amp in-out & run your spk at lg?

[jcaut]

Those look GREAT!

I've always wanted to try something like that, but the size and the $$ makes it unrealistic for me at this point.

Congratulations! Hope you get the sound you're looking for!

Jason

[hoosier21]

Are you going to connect them at your pre-amp in-out & run your spk at lg?

Preamp connected to the Outlaw ICBM (crossover), then from there HF outs to Speaker amp, and subwwofer outs to subwoofer amp. right now they are crossed over at 80hz.

[95Honda]

I'm running the ICBM also. I like it very much. It sounds great and is really flexible. Next step up is a Bryston 10B sub, but $2,500 is too much for a crossover for me right now....

[unc2701]

I'm running the ICBM also. I like it very much. It sounds great and is really flexible. Next step up is a Bryston 10B sub, but $2,500 is too much for a crossover for me right now....
no affil:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1131320279

$800 for a 10b

[95Honda]

10b sub, different than 10b...

[amulford]

Nice. I like you eased the corners, and the prep for the paint is very nicely done. It looks like the cabinet is one piece molded. That took some time.

Wait'll they break in :D . Whaddaya gonna push 'em with? Are they proving out what you wanted?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Dude those look like they could warrant a "Beware Of Sub" sign to go on the fence out front. Holy crap, absolutely mean looking. Awesome job!

[unc2701]

10b sub, different than 10b...


that's a 10b sub, but there's a few 10b's on audiogon for less than $1000, too. if you want to go new, lemme know- a friend of mine is a dealer.

hoosier21- was that crown intended for this project?... 'cause if I were you, I'd hang onto it and figure a way to put it in another room where the fans won't matter...

[hoosier21]

Well it looks like the Crown amp is here to stay, nobody wanted it. I opened the hood, found both leads to the fans and they had little plugs, unplugged them, no fan noise anymore. The amp only gets slightly warmer than room temp even when playing at loud volumes for a long time. The only way I can get this amp to get "warm to the touch" is by leaving the main speaker's amp off, and running the subs a idiotic levels, with a bass heavy CD. So my fix should be ok under normal conditions.

Also, the subwoofers are breaking in very nice. I was a little concerned about the low feq. output, but with more playing time, they keep digging deeper and deeper. I was complaining to a few Polk members about the deep bass, but that is going away.

After living with these for a week or two now, I am very satisfied with this project.

[madmax]

Something you should keep in mind about the heat. The case doesn't get hot because there is no real heat sink in there to spread out the heat. Well there is but they rely on the fan to spread it out. You really need to have some air blowing. You can get some resistors, cut the voltage down a bit and the fan will still spin maybe at half speed but you won't be able to hear it.

My point is that the actual fet or transistors are way hotter than you think. A future problem for sure.

There are better ways to do this but a quick and dirty way to pick a resistor is to measure the resistance of the fan. Buy a 10 watt (or larger) ceramic resistor with the same resistance. put it in series with the fan. This will be about 1/2 voltage with should be enough. Really about 1/3 the fan resistance might be better. The fan probably runs at 12 volts dc. MAKE SURE IT IS 12 V (NOT 120V AC) BEFORE YOU ADD THE RESISTORS.


madmax

[hoosier21]

thanks MM, I will work on it after Polkfest 2005.

[unc2701]

+1 on what madmax said... Get a front panel temperature controller for a computer... you'll have to ghetto wire an external power supply to it, but for like $50 you can get one with temperature probes and fan control. Put the probes on the output transistors or whatever heatsinks there are inside the case and have the fans cut in around 60 degrees c (80 degrees c is where most elec parts fail).

[hoosier21]

+1 on what madmax said... Get a front panel temperature controller for a computer... you'll have to ghetto wire an external power supply to it, but for like $50 you can get one with temperature probes and fan control. Put the probes on the output transistors or whatever heatsinks there are inside the case and have the fans cut in around 60 degrees c (80 degrees c is where most elec parts fail).

Don't think so, crap, you guys got me thinking of selling again.

Does anyone need a pro amp??!!

[unc2701]

Still tempted, but the woman isn't going to go for another ugly, noisy piece of equipment in the living room... (or the subs that I would be using it to drive...)

[madmax]

Just fyi,
My 1250 watt carvers had a high/low fan speed switch. Low was pretty much inaudible unless the room was dead quiet. They were running only a little slower than high speed.
madmax

[hoosier21]

Just fyi,
My 1250 watt carvers had a high/low fan speed switch. Low was pretty much inaudible unless the room was dead quiet. They were running only a little slower than high speed.
madmax

Like I said when post the amp for sale, I didn't research it enough. I was "thinking" the fan would be variable speed, or have a high low setting.

Oh well, live a learn

[hellohello]

one thing u could try on noisy DC fans, if they are DC, is to use a diode or two on the positive side. It isnt variable unless u switch them in, but it does slow it down enough to be quiet

[madmax]

Like I said when post the amp for sale, I didn't research it enough. I was "thinking" the fan would be variable speed, or have a high low setting.

Oh well, live a learn

I was just pointing out that slowing the fan slightly takes care of the problem. I used the carver as an example because even at high wattage the slightly slower fan took care of the job and pretty much eliminated the noise.

madmax

[Airplay355]

more pics more pics :)

[goingganzo]

that should almost be as insane as my 4 18 avalanch subs. with olny 500 wats now i can shake the entire house.