Tubes and Club Polk

[ND13]

In the short time I've been a member of Club Polk, I've seen the number of tube users climb dramatically within our ranks.

Is it just me or does that not make it "appear" that audio hobbyists are turning back the hands of time, to what some consider the "golden age" of audio? Or is it that tube gear has become alot more reasonable to acquire?

[Emlyn]

The tube gear I use from Sonic Frontiers can't really be said to be a throwback to a previous time because it was designed to hold some of the virtues of both tube and solid state products. Most users here aren't using SET amps and high efficiency speakers, so I'd say we're mostly not really back in the "golden age" apart from using gear that has some tubes in it. The tube gear available now is probably more accessible at a lower price/quality/reliability point than it has been before. New production tubes also appear to be increasing in quality as demand for them has risen in the last few years. Wouldn't it be ironic if solid state amplification as we currently know it disappears in a few years to be replaced by digital processing and amplification, while audiophiles are still using tube preamplifiers and amplifiers in stereo gear at continuing increases in quality level?

[W WALDECKER]

The tube gear I use from Sonic Frontiers can't really be said to be a throwback to a previous time because it was designed to hold some of the virtues of both tube and solid state products. Most users here aren't using SET amps and high efficiency speakers, so I'd say we're mostly not really back in the "golden age" apart from using gear that has some tubes in it. The tube gear available now is probably more accessible at a lower price/quality/reliability point than it has been before. New production tubes also appear to be increasing in quality as demand for them has risen in the last few years. Wouldn't it be ironic if solid state amplification as we currently know it disappears in a few years to be replaced by digital processing and amplification, while audiophiles are still using tube preamplifiers and amplifiers in stereo gear at continuing increases in quality level? i truely believe that a combination of tubes and solid state
is not a compromise but a viable solution that remedys deficiencies that plague both approaches to amplification. it offers the best of both worlds. solid state will remain a force to be recconed with for many years to come as digital amplification has its own problems and limitations as well. thanks for the topic....WCW III

[SCompRacer]

I'm looking for rich sound at low listening levels on a budget and to remove odd order distortion to reduce listening fatigue. I've ran through five solid state amps, and kept getting closer, but still wasn't happy. Enter an affordable tube amp that does not simply copy an old 50's design, but has improved circuitry with modern high quality components.

I'm told there are SS amps that can do what I want, but I never heard one yet and most likely could not afford one. The drawbacks are the heat and future maintenance issues along with tube availability and price. Fortunately my horizontal output tubes are plentiful and inexpensive. So thats why I am where I am today.

[madmax]

It is my opinion that when transistors were introduced a trick was played on the general public concerning music re-production. I grew up with transistors, have had many transistor and FET amplifiers, many in the $1500 to $2K range, had tons of power, maybe 12KW all told and had spent many dollars. When I got my first tube amp I thought to myself "Hmmm... not bad". After a few listening sessions with the tubes I reverted back to my SS stuff and noticed a noise staring me in the face. I started looking around at all my wonderful equipment thinking "Man, this stuff is crap". After a short time most of it was gone. This noise is not a hiss, not a pop, not a lean or thin sound. It varys with the music being played and truthfully I had never noticed it until hearing the tubes which does not contain it. It is a dynamic noise. Turn the source off and it is dead quiet. Many contend it is the odd harmonics. They are probably right. I've only heard a few systems where this noise was at an acceptable level but we are talking in the 3K+ range. Personally, I would rather have the tubes. (Which btw, in a good deal you can find something in the $700 range).

So what did removal of this noise do for me? I used to listen for 45 minutes to an hour and would get tired of it. I now sit down for one song and end up going through 5 or 6 CD's or LP's before I can tear myself away. It's night and day for me.
madmax

[ND13]

It is my opinion that when transistors were introduced a trick was played on the general public concerning music re-production. I grew up with transistors, have had many transistor and FET amplifiers, many in the $1500 to $2K range, had tons of power, maybe 12KW all told and had spent many dollars. When I got my first tube amp I thought to myself "Hmmm... not bad". After a few listening sessions with the tubes I reverted back to my SS stuff and noticed a noise staring me in the face. I started looking around at all my wonderful equipment thinking "Man, this stuff is crap". After a short time most of it was gone. This noise is not a hiss, not a pop, not a lean or thin sound. It varys with the music being played and truthfully I had never noticed it until hearing the tubes which does not contain it. It is a dynamic noise. Turn the source off and it is dead quiet. Many contend it is the odd harmonics. They are probably right. I've only heard a few systems where this noise was at an acceptable level but we are talking in the 3K+ range. Personally, I would rather have the tubes. (Which btw, in a good deal you can find something in the $700 range).

So what did removal of this noise do for me? I used to listen for 45 minutes to an hour and would get tired of it. I now sit down for one song and end up going through 5 or 6 CD's or LP's before I can tear myself away. It's night and day for me.
madmax


Yep, that about nails it. You sure are a smart fella. :)

[madmax]

Yep, that about nails it. You sure are a smart fella. :)

Nah man, that was the guy sittin' next ta me...
madmax

[Gary Robertson]

In the short time I've been a member of Club Polk, I've seen the number of tube users climb dramatically within our ranks.

Is it just me or does that not make it "appear" that audio hobbyists are turning back the hands of time, to what some consider the "golden age" of audio? Or is it that tube gear has become alot more reasonable to acquire?
----------------------------------------------------
The tube ampe just have a certain sound/bite to them that sarious audiophiles prefer. the quality of sound at much,much less wattage is phenominal--and tahe authentis truthfulness to their sound--and yes they are starting to become way more reasonable to obtain..noewr days with the modern technology WOW the elimination of coupling capacators and all that other stuff and focus more on TIM instead of THD.
Transit innermodulation Distortion in the one we should be worrying aboit--(tube desighers know this) and not THD and the negative feedback syndrome..although im an lov with my Bryston -i should also own a big conrad Johnson or somethong ,especially with the prodigy's

[audiobliss]

You can add me to the list of folks rushing out to get tubes!

:D:D:D:D

[Dennis Gardner]

Transistors gave us portability,safety, durability, and less maintenance.

Notice that good sound wasn't in the list?

On a side note: My dad always laughs when he hears kids drive up with their cars with 2000 watts bumpin in the trunk. He did it with 10 watts of tube power into 2 high efficiency Altec 15 inchersin an infinite baffle setup in 1956 with just an am radio.

[W WALDECKER]

Transistors gave us portability,safety, durability, and less maintenance.

Notice that good sound wasn't in the list?

On a side note: My dad always laughs when he hears kids drive up with their cars with 2000 watts bumpin in the trunk. He did it with 10 watts of tube power into 2 high efficiency Altec 15 inchersin an infinite baffle setup in 1956 with just an am radio. Hey Dennis , come on now buddy not all solid state gear is created alike and you know this to be a fact. my $1500 Khartago monos were as smooth as velvet and had what others described as a tube like sound. i love what a tube preamp does in conjunction with my 300 wpc 120 amps of current mono Extremes and i aspire to get a more refined Valve preamp in the future. i must argue that some of the best power amplifiers are solid state and they are inherently more reliable and run much cooler which prolongs the useful life of the electronics that reside in the circuit. facts are stubborn things. thank you.....,your good friend..... William C Waldecker III

[Dennis Gardner]

William,

I think that the fact that you and I both like what Odyssey has done with a solid state circuit is a further testament to the reality that tubes do create a much more enjoyable sound. Bob Carver knew this also, and his amps reflect his preference for the smoother sound that tubes have. I personally prefer the reliability and low maintenance that SS circuits provide, but only if they match the sound that I love.

I got your PM and I will be second in line!!

DG

[W WALDECKER]

William,

I think that the fact that you and I both like what Odyssey has done with a solid state circuit is a further testament to the reality that tubes do create a much more enjoyable sound. Bob Carver knew this also, and his amps reflect his preference for the smoother sound that tubes have. I personally prefer the reliability and low maintenance that SS circuits provide, but only if they match the sound that I love.

I got your PM and I will be second in line!!

DG yeah Dennis, i am aware that the TFM nomenclature stands for transfer function modification and Bob Carver was trying to mimic the sonic signature of his Valve designs within the framework of a solid state circuit with a fair amount of success. he is one of my favorite Audio Engineers right up there next to Herr Rolf Gemien of Symphonic Line in Germany....thanks....WCW III

[HBombToo]

For me I believe the nature of the Polk design with efficiency in mind lends itself to the glory of tubes. Hence, the large following of tube experimentation within our club.

I have an outlaw and have converted the front end with tubes and SDA's... whats that tell ya???

HBomb

[Dennis Gardner]

whats that tell ya???

HBomb

You're in the know!!

I think that along with everything else in our fast and furious world, audio went along for the ride by adopting a no-fuss/no-muss manufacturing mentality with solid state technoloy leading the way. Less trouble for the consumer means less returns and service required. This is the general way to produce for the masses.

I just prefer to avoid the masses, whenever I can.

[madmax]

i must argue that some of the best power amplifiers are solid state and they are inherently more reliable and run much cooler which prolongs the useful life of the electronics that reside in the circuit. facts are stubborn things. thank you.....,your good friend..... William C Waldecker III

Of course the tube amps from 40 years ago are fresh as a new rose with a new set of tubes for $50 and replacement of a few caps. Facts are stubborn things for sure. They pop up in the weirdest ways... :p
madmax

[HBombToo]

You're in the know!!

I think that along with everything else in our fast and furious world, audio went along for the ride by adopting a no-fuss/no-muss manufacturing mentality with solid state technoloy leading the way. Less trouble for the consumer means less returns and service required. This is the general way to produce for the masses.

I just prefer to avoid the masses, whenever I can.

I know that I'm not in the know but for the rest I agree with you 100% Dennis. The public is a lazy bunch only looking for the easy way out. I sit here recalling my Grandmother telling me about the "Victory Garden" during the great depression. WE have a long way to get back to whats important is all I can say...

Henry

[W WALDECKER]

Of course the tube amps from 40 years ago are fresh as a new rose with a new set of tubes for $50 and replacement of a few caps. Facts are stubborn things for sure. They pop up in the weirdest ways... :p
madmaxi agree, point well taken but i feel that debate is a healthy thing as long as everyone is nice about it!....thanks....WCW III

[madmax]

No problem with debates here. I feel that unless you consider other points of view you are forever stuck knowing only what you know today. What fun is that? :)
madmax

[ND13]

I for one don't mind having to work a little(like biasing or rolling tubes) to get the sound I like, that's part of the fun to me. With that said, I'm so freakin happy that the MLP has a remote. The work should stop when it's time to sit and listen. I don't want to have to get up to adjust the volume for different passages.

[W WALDECKER]

:)
I for one don't mind having to work a little(like biasing or rolling tubes) to get the sound I like, that's part of the fun to me. With that said, I'm so freakin happy that the MLP has a remote. The work should stop when it's time to sit and listen. I don't want to have to get up to adjust the volume for different passages.oh' mr big shot has got a remote my Anthem aint got no stinking remote! :)

[cmy330go]

I must admit that this increased chatting about tubes is really making me curious what tubes could do for my 2ch system. I will say that I am quite impressed with my Halo preamp and amp, but am wondering what it would cost to get into a tube amp or preamp (or both) that would outperform my current gear.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Dennis Gardner]

but am wondering what it would cost to get into a tube amp or preamp (or both) that would outperform my current gear.

Does anyone have any suggestions?


About $2295. :D

Try this link:Dodd Reference (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1133747720)

Our own RuSsMaN has this fabulous preamp offered for what I would consider a steal.

[ND13]

I must admit that this increased chatting about tubes is really making me curious what tubes could do for my 2ch system. I will say that I am quite impressed with my Halo preamp and amp, but am wondering what it would cost to get into a tube amp or preamp (or both) that would outperform my current gear.

Does anyone have any suggestions?


Check out F1's VTL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33312 in the FM for under $1k shipped. That one will get you an extremely good feel for what tubes will do for you. If you want to experiment for less, there are several for $500 or less that are up to the task.

[shack]

Tubes....I can take em' or leave em'. I own a nice tube pre and have tried several different tubes....and they sound very good. But I find that I lose very little moving my SS pre back into the mix. I've heard some really good tube CDPs, but I've heard non-tube CDPs I like better. I don't have these "tube withdrawal" symptoms several have mentioned when they go back to SS for whatever reason. Of course, I am also a guy that even though I play a LP from time to time, I'm not wowed by vinyl either (been there, done that). I have been doing this audio thing now for almost 40 years and it really is just a matter of personal preference. I have a 26 year old rig that still sounds good and I have plenty of SOTA gear as well. I like to try new stuff but good old stuff is cool too. Cables sound different to me and some I like and some I don't. I like SACD (2 channel) and don't own a single DVD-A. One of my CDPs does HDCD. I don't listen to MP3s. I am a HUGE fan of surround sound for movies...2 channel is for music. I use receivers and I use separates. I like them both.

[Dennis Gardner]

Takes balls to stand up and admit to swingin' both ways in this thread. :D

Good on ya', Shack.

[shack]

Takes balls to stand up and admit to swingin' both ways in this thread. :D

Good on ya', Shack.
Yep....I'm bi-audio....

[TroyD]

Well, I think that there are a lot of issues that come to play here. One is that you've had a solid core of folks Russman, F1, Doro, madmax preaching the gospel of 2ch and tubes. As I've said before, one of the cool things about this forum is the number of 2ch converts from the HT crowd.

The other thing I find interesting is that listening to tube gear really shows you how unimportant rated specifications can be. I find tubes to be, inherently more musical...I think (without getting into a technical discussion) stems from the analog nature of them.

That said, there IS a place for SS though. I've heard and owned SS gear that I think is every bit as good and, in cases, better than some tube gear. So, no, I don't think one is inherently better than the other.

BDT

[madmax]

When I first got into tubes 5 years ago everyone on the board thought I was some kind of an alien. Nothing has changed, they still think that...
madmax

[ND13]

When I first got into tubes 5 years ago everyone on the board thought I was some kind of an alien. Nothing has changed, they still think that...
madmax

Maybe if you'd hide those antennae, on your head, under a baseball cap or something, they wouldn't think that of you anymore :eek: :D

[organ]

I got into tubes about 2 1/2 years ago. I was completely satisfied with my NAD seperates and had an Onkyo receiver collecting dust. My co-worker decided to trade his tube amp with my receiver. I thought it was a cool way for me to see what tubes sound like.

I wasn't expecting the tube amp to blow my NAD away but it did. I couldn't believe this 40yr old amp sounds this good. I'm still in the process of restoring this amp slowly so I can hear the difference.

I love tubes so much that I decided to build a complete 2ch system around it by getting a tube pre and high efficiency speakers. And tube rolling is so much fun. I love being able to tweak the sound to get what I want.

Of course, there's the cool factor too. Whenever I have friends come over, they always check out the tube equipments with this "wtf? look" on their faces.

TUBES RULE!

Maurice

[cmy330go]

And tube rolling is so much fun. I love being able to tweak the sound to get what I want.

Ok dumb question. This tube rolling that I keep hearing about. Am I right in assuming that is reffering to switching out tubes for different sounds? If not I'm ok with looking stupid. :rolleyes:

[audiobliss]

If not I'm ok with looking stupid. :rolleyes:

That's a great thing. You can learn a lot with that attitude. Unfortunately, I find it harder to come by that kind of an attitude. :o

[Dennis Gardner]

Rolling = Swapping, it just sounds much more :cool: :cool: :cool:

[ND13]

Ok dumb question. This tube rolling that I keep hearing about. Am I right in assuming that is reffering to switching out tubes for different sounds? If not I'm ok with looking stupid. :rolleyes:

Yes, you are correct in your asumption :D

[Ricardo]

Ok; can you all just please STOP THIS THREAD????

Today I am returning the HK 3480, which I liked a lot, with less than one month use. I decided to change because YOU PEOPLE always talk about separates this and separates that; well, I am grabbing from a CP member an Adcom 555 bundle (GFP and GFA) to drive my SDA 1B's.

I would very much appreciate if you let me enjoy the separates, that will not arrive until next week, for at least a couple of months. So please stop talking about all the great things that tubes bring.

Thanks.

[ND13]

OOPS!!!! Sorry :o

[Ricardo]

Thanks. :) :) :)

[W WALDECKER]

Ok; can you all just please STOP THIS THREAD????

Today I am returning the HK 3480, which I liked a lot, with less than one month use. I decided to change because YOU PEOPLE always talk about separates this and separates that; well, I am grabbing from a CP member an Adcom 555 bundle (GFP and GFA) to drive my SDA 1B's.

I would very much appreciate if you let me enjoy the separates, that will not arrive until next week, for at least a couple of months. So please stop talking about all the great things that tubes bring.

Thanks.did you see my thread on the Dodd tube preamplifiers that Tweek Geek.com has on sale, for a mere $389.00 you can get a brand new Dodd ELP tube preamp and find out what all the fuss is about. thanks....WCW III

[Ricardo]

did you see my thread on the Dodd tube preamplifiers that Tweek Geek.com has on sale, for a mere $389.00 you can get a brand new Dodd ELP tube preamp and find out what all the fuss is about. thanks....WCW III

No; NO;NO.....

This is exactly what I DON'T need....

I'm not listening...I'm not listening...I'm not listening......

[george daniel]

Ok; can you all just please STOP THIS THREAD????

Today I am returning the HK 3480, which I liked a lot, with less than one month use. I decided to change because YOU PEOPLE always talk about separates this and separates that; well, I am grabbing from a CP member an Adcom 555 bundle (GFP and GFA) to drive my SDA 1B's.

I would very much appreciate if you let me enjoy the separates, that will not arrive until next week, for at least a couple of months. So please stop talking about all the great things that tubes bring.

Thanks.
When you receive the adcom gear, you are going to be impressed, have fun with the two, then at some point in time,down the road so to speak,you may want to tweak,just as I have,I tell you that to tell you this, I moved the 555 to my main system,and could not believe the way it made my 1c's sing, IMHO every amp has it's own signature, you will not be disapointed, I had plans to have it modded,because I did not think that anyone one grab it,trust me ,you are going to love the move that you are about to make,if you do not like it,send it back and I will return your money :) I doubt,however,that will be the case,ENJOY the music that you are about to hear,it's fun :D :D

[organ]

Ok dumb question. This tube rolling that I keep hearing about. Am I right in assuming that is reffering to switching out tubes for different sounds? If not I'm ok with looking stupid. :rolleyes:

Yup. Different brands have different sound.

[audiobliss]

Yup. Different brands have different sound.

And I'm looking forward to discovering that myself! :)

[cmy330go]

....This noise is not a hiss, not a pop, not a lean or thin sound. It varys with the music being played and truthfully I had never noticed it until hearing the tubes which does not contain it. It is a dynamic noise. Turn the source off and it is dead quiet. Many contend it is the odd harmonics. They are probably right......madmax

Do you feel that the noise you are speaking of here is from a preamp, amp, or both? I'm just curious if a hybrid setup of tubes an SS will eliminate this noise you and so many are talking about.

[organ]

Hey Bliss,
Just saw the FM forum. Congrats on the Wave 8's. If you find an ASL AQ2004DT pre amp and the price is right, go for it. The 2004 is the matching pre amp for the Wave 8's. I have one and love it. It's discontinued. I believe they retailed for $299 when they were still around.

Maurice

[dragon1952]

Ok; can you all just please STOP THIS THREAD????

Today I am returning the HK 3480, which I liked a lot, with less than one month use. I decided to change because YOU PEOPLE always talk about separates this and separates that; well, I am grabbing from a CP member an Adcom 555 bundle (GFP and GFA) to drive my SDA 1B's.

I would very much appreciate if you let me enjoy the separates, that will not arrive until next week, for at least a couple of months. So please stop talking about all the great things that tubes bring.

Thanks.

Boy did you blow it :rolleyes:

:D

[audiobliss]

organ - Thanks for the suggestion about the AQ2004DT. I may have to look into that further down the road.

[madmax]

Do you feel that the noise you are speaking of here is from a preamp, amp, or both? I'm just curious if a hybrid setup of tubes an SS will eliminate this noise you and so many are talking about.

It's my finding that it comes from the amp. I can use a SS pre with the tube amp and not notice it. I do notice the sound is less involving with the SS preamp.

So, IMO, with a tube pre/SS amp I hear the noise but am involved with the music, with a SS pre/tube amp I do not hear the sound but am not involved. Keep in mind these are only my findings with a handful of pre's and amps. I do not have any megabuck amplifiers. My best ones are the Carver Silver 9t's. While a good deal at $1300 msrp (maybe $700 used) they are not anything like the Musical Fidelity equipment. I bring up the MF gear because the ones I heard (thanks to F1Nut) have a tube pre/SS amp and do not have this noise. It can be done with SS but is quite expensive.

madmax

[reeltrouble1]

Wow, I guess I was not doing it right rolling my tubes on the rug. I thought the more you rolled them the better they sounded, you know, breaking them in I was up to rolling each 1000 times before using it, well, my old knees will be better for it.

Damm that RuSsman giving me the business.

Max,

I have had the same experience. Strange but yes some tubes seem to have a black background.

RT1

[madmax]

Wow, I guess I was not doing it right rolling my tubes on the rug. I thought the more you rolled them the better they sounded, you know, breaking them in I was up to rolling each 1000 times before using it, well, my old knees will be better for it.
RT1

Here all this time I was using the "roll your own" papers from the 7-11 store...

madmax

[organ]

Madmax,
Is this sound you're describing sort of like a 'haze'? If it is, I hear the same thing mostly in the mids with my SS amp.

Maurice

[HBombToo]

if anyone is rolling anything I better be invited!

HBomb

[madmax]

Madmax,
Is this sound you're describing sort of like a 'haze'? If it is, I hear the same thing mostly in the mids with my SS amp.

Maurice


Not really, its more like a mid to high frequency distorted sound which is not nearly as loud as the intended signal.

Actually, if you wanted to hear that sound alone, it is the same as if you put a diode in series with one of the wires going to your speaker. It's not the exact same sound but very close. Don't try that with a tube amp though, use an el-cheapo radio or something.

madmax

[ND13]

if anyone is rolling anything I better be invited!

HBomb


+1 :D :cool: