it lives - part 2

[PoweredByDodge]

after 2 years of killing myself and months of "but i THOUGHT it was done" ... truck's done. (mechanically).

took a die grinder to the cylinder heads after drill pressing out the holes with a metric industrial bit that came out to around 2/3 of an inch diameter.

... no leaks... anywhere.

only current obstacle - the damn speedometer cable is messed up. do i care? no.

whole thing is rustproofed/undercoated, motor looks like a purple shining million dollar hunk of metal, and its all just plain pretty...

test drive coming by the end of the week (up till now i've been checking tranny and drivetrain by having the rear end jacked up 1 inch off the ground and letting the tires spin in free air. --- its safer than the alternative of actually driving a vehicle that you're nto confident is put togetehr properly.)

photos of the engine compartment and undercarriage very soon too - i'll put em in this thread.

to do list -
-- get original steel plain wheels (i have the hubcaps already)
-- fix stupid speedometer thingy (its actually the little plastic gear that goes in the tranny that's the problem - all the teeth are **** -- speedo itself is fine).
-- body and paint (next summer - or when $$ permits -- i'm looking at a $10-15k paint job... i want it stripped down to metal, beed blasted, lead filled, blocked down, and then painted - just like from the factory 20 years ago).


...... now i can get on with my damn life.

[PolkThug]

What year and what engine is it?

[faster100]

your putting that kinda dough into the paint? Its a modern truck isnt it, Just wondering, seems like alot unless it was a 50's pick up or something.. is it gonna be a show truck.

[audiobliss]

Haha!! I don't get the feeling it's going to be a show truck! But that most definitely is a lot of money to drop in the paint job. Why do you want to spend so much on it? I'm surprised you can even find somebody who will fill all the holes with lead.

I've forgotten, but what kind of truck is it? (Dodge, but what year....?)

In my personal opinion, none of the Dodge pick-ups (save for the last few years) are nice enough/look good enough to drop that kind of dough for.

[MacLeod]

Glad to hear it Vin. Now you can get back to more important things like keeping us in line around here!

[PoweredByDodge]

1988 dodge w-150 power wagon

4wd converted to 2wd with solid front axle.

every part is brand new or rebuilt oem quality -- i have over 16,500 in the truck right now... that includes the 4,000 purchase price.

I will have 30 grand in it with the paint and body work. it is worth it.

and yes it will be both a show truck and a summer driver.. i intend to drive the **** out of it but keep it in the condition i have worked so hard to attain.

i will own it till "they plant me" (read as: die), and i will run over small pets with it.

'90 318 roller cam block with hydro roller lifters.
'83 318 cop cylinder heads
eddy intake
727 torqueflite (circa late 70's)
3.90 chrysler corporate rear end...

lots o other goodies... its worth it.

its an animal.

[exalted512]

it was 4wd and you converted it to 2wd???? why?
-Cody

[hellohello]

"i will run over small pets with it."

Nice. Glad you didnt give up on her, and it doesnt sound like the kind of truck ud really pay attention to a speedometer with anyway, espcially with the statement quoted above. :D

[Jstas]

it was 4wd and you converted it to 2wd???? why?
-Cody

Cause he's not a hick?

Cause 4 wheel drive is unecessary for paved roads?

I'll bet that it's because that extra axle is heavy as hell and all that weight is unsprung weight. It also means no more super heavy transfer case, extra driveshaft and big, heavy front hubs. Pull 4 wheel drive out of a 4x4 can often save you close to 1,000 pounds. Also, less weight and less powertrain components to rotate means less power used in getting the vehicle moving and keeping it moving. Less weight, less parasitic draw, more power is available to use the truck. That improves gas mileage. Also, 4x4's usually have heavy duty axles in the rear and they can usually handle more power and take more abuse than a non-heavy duty axle. Plus, 4x4 real axles will usually have a pretty low final drive ratio so it's easy to get a favorable gear ratio in the 3rd member that will allow the vehicle to run like a scalded dog. Besides, it's a Dodge and most likely had a Dana 60 or a Dana 40. Both of which are coveted by drag racers for thier crazy amounts of strength. The only other stock axle that can compete with a Dana 60 in strength is the venerable Ford 9 inch and the 9 inch HD. There are many people out there that conider the 9 inch to be the big daddy of stock axles. Besides, it was such a good design that Toyota and Nissan copied it for thier trucks. Not the newer ones though.

Performance wise though, a 5,000 pound truck with 300 horses will run a 1/4 mile roughly a second faster than a truck that weighs 6,000 pounds with 300 horses provided everything else is the same.

[Jstas]

"i will run over small pets with it."

Nice. Glad you didnt give up on her, and it doesnt sound like the kind of truck ud really pay attention to a speedometer with anyway, espcially with the statement quoted above. :D

Nah, he'll need the speedometer to get an idea of how fast I'll be moving when I blow his doors off! :eek: :p ;) :D :cool:

[amulford]

Nah, he'll need the speedometer to get an idea of how fast I'll be moving when I blow his doors off! :eek: :p ;) :D :cool:

Don't make me get the beemer out and smoke your ass... :cool:

[Jstas]

Don't make me get the beemer out and smoke your ass... :cool:

The last time you rode in the truck, I was behaving. The only BMWs I have encountered and been unable to outrun are the new M3's and the M5's. Everything else is handily dispensed with.

[PolkThug]

The last time you rode in the truck, I was behaving. The only BMWs I have encountered and been unable to outrun are the new M3's and the M5's. Everything else is handily dispensed with.

So YOU'RE the guy that pulls his pickup truck up next to my BMW and starts revvin' the engine! :D

[exalted512]

Cause he's not a hick?

Cause 4 wheel drive is unecessary for paved roads?

I'll bet that it's because that extra axle is heavy as hell and all that weight is unsprung weight. It also means no more super heavy transfer case, extra driveshaft and big, heavy front hubs. Pull 4 wheel drive out of a 4x4 can often save you close to 1,000 pounds. Also, less weight and less powertrain components to rotate means less power used in getting the vehicle moving and keeping it moving. Less weight, less parasitic draw, more power is available to use the truck. That improves gas mileage. Also, 4x4's usually have heavy duty axles in the rear and they can usually handle more power and take more abuse than a non-heavy duty axle. Plus, 4x4 real axles will usually have a pretty low final drive ratio so it's easy to get a favorable gear ratio in the 3rd member that will allow the vehicle to run like a scalded dog. Besides, it's a Dodge and most likely had a Dana 60 or a Dana 40. Both of which are coveted by drag racers for thier crazy amounts of strength. The only other stock axle that can compete with a Dana 60 in strength is the venerable Ford 9 inch and the 9 inch HD. There are many people out there that conider the 9 inch to be the big daddy of stock axles. Besides, it was such a good design that Toyota and Nissan copied it for thier trucks. Not the newer ones though.

Performance wise though, a 5,000 pound truck with 300 horses will run a 1/4 mile roughly a second faster than a truck that weighs 6,000 pounds with 300 horses provided everything else is the same.

so only hicks have 4wd??

he lives in new york, during the winter i think 4wd would be quite valuable. While it makes sense that hed take it off to make it faster, why didnt he buy a 2wd in the first place. IFS would give him a lot better handling that a SFA. BTW, as far as rear axle strength goes, you cant beat a gm14 bolt.
-Cody

[Jstas]

so only hicks have 4wd??

he lives in new york, during the winter i think 4wd would be quite valuable. While it makes sense that hed take it off to make it faster, why didnt he buy a 2wd in the first place. IFS would give him a lot better handling that a SFA. BTW, as far as rear axle strength goes, you cant beat a gm14 bolt.
-Cody

No, you don't have to be a hick to use 4 wheel drive. Yes, he lives in NY where 4 wheel drive came in handy...if you live out in the sticks where roads aren't plowed as readily. But Vinnie lives in the suburbs of Buffalo and snow removal is pretty efficient there. Hell, it's pretty efficient here. I have never owned a 4 wheel drive vehicle in my life and I have always had a RWD vehicle and have been able to navigate snow, mud, camping trails and so on without issue. That is besides the point though.

You asked, I just gave answers. Didn't say the were the correct ones though! :D

[exalted512]

yea, it snowed down here last winter...a whole 6"!!! i have a friend i was following and he had 4wd and was using it and i was in my old truck. he hit a patch of black ice and went off in the ditch and i was following right behind him and didnt have any problems...lol. While he was getting out of the ditch another car hit it and went into the ditch right next to him...dont know what that adds to anything, but a weird experience
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Cause he's not a hick?

Cause 4 wheel drive is unecessary for paved roads?




And just how necessary is that super charger under your hood there my brother? :p

4x4's are cool, I just cant afford one.

[audiobliss]

:eek:

Your Ram isn't a 4x4?! Well.....*sigh*....it just isn't cool anymore...

:D

[MacLeod]

No, a 4x4 wouldve been $3000 more.....and to be honest I really couldnt afford the 4x2 either but Ive never let something as simple as not having enough money to stop me from buying stuff!

[audiobliss]

well...then why didn't you get a 4x4...?

:D

[MacLeod]

Because my irresponsibility has its limits.

[audiobliss]

Well, that's a plus. I'm afriad mine doesn't!

:D:D

[Jstas]

And just how necessary is that super charger under your hood there my brother? :p

4x4's are cool, I just cant afford one.

Superchargers aren't just for going fast. They are used on trucks to increase power for hauling and lessen the effects of elevation changes on the engines of trucks that carry heavy loads. Of course, many modern trucks use turbo chargers instead of superchargers now but both accomplish the same task.

As far as how necessary it is on my truck, well, since compression tops out at a "lofty" 8.2:1, the engine would not be able to run properly without the 8 psi or boost to raise the effective compression ratio up to about 10:1. Running without the supercharger, the engine will ping like crazy and tear itself apart unless the computer dials back ignition timing and makes the fuel/air mixture super rich.

[amulford]

Just out of curiosity, what's the absolute top end, John? I mean, flat out floored after around two miles w/ no load...

[Jstas]

Electronically limited to 149 MPH. But there is more. Not a whole lot but it's there. I think that without the rev limiter and a good tailwind, it'd be able to just touch a buck sixty. I've only had it up to about 130-135 but at that point, it was still pulling hard. I had to let off because of road conditions.

[PoweredByDodge]

with a final drive of 1 to 1 on the torqueflite and a 3.91 spicer/dana 60 - ya - i'll be lucky to break 90 mph

[hellohello]

not a speed racer huh? lol

[neomagus00]

As far as how necessary it is on my truck, well, since compression tops out at a "lofty" 8.2:1, the engine would not be able to run properly without the 8 psi or boost to raise the effective compression ratio up to about 10:1. Running without the supercharger, the engine will ping like crazy and tear itself apart unless the computer dials back ignition timing and makes the fuel/air mixture super rich.
shouldn't it be the other way round? if you pack less air into the same volume, why would it detonate?

[Jstas]

Because the timing and ignition advance are calibrated for the higher compression of a boosted engine and to run on premium fuel. If the extra compression from the boost is not there, the engine, tuned for 10:1 compression, is now running at 8.2:1 compression and the ignition is firing too soon and the fuel/air mixture is igniting and the flame front is contacting the piston before the piston reaches top dead center. That is knocking.

[neomagus00]

hmm... excuse my persistence, but i'm trying to get this quite clear in my head (which is admittedly mildly cloudy at the moment)... assuming everything else is held the same, running a richer mixture (i.e. the one you get with 8.2:1 worth of air but 10:1 worth of fuel) should delay detonation, should it not? or is it that a richer mixture burns faster in the cylinder, which causes the same timing to ignite the wavefront which then hits the piston sooner than expected?

[Jstas]

Um, 8.2:1 and 10:1 are compression ratios, not fuel mixture ratios. Completely different numbers.

[neomagus00]

agreed. i meant that if you have the amount of fuel the ecu would put in, expecting there to be the amount of air there would be with a 10:1 effective compression, but really it's getting that fuel with less air (the effective compression being 8.2:1 because the supercharger is disabled), then it would be a rich mixture. if the ecu properly compensates, it's all a moot point anyways.

[faster100]

So when people build NOS motors with lower compression to handle the nitrous shot then can't drive them without the NOs? :rolleyes:

That motor won't blow up without the supercharger, It would be better a chance if you stuck that SC on a non blown motor of blowing it up.. electronics would re-time it back down anyways, you think you run full boost at all times? what ya think the compression is at say 30 -40 mph ? its not near full boost around town at those speeds hence its back at 8 or 9 :1 compression and the computer most likely retards the timing and fuel mixture.. A blown motor is nothing more then a low compression motor with a boost (SC ) to increase compression when needed under med to full throttle conditions.. your set up may vary ....

back to the thread, I'm happy for Vince that he got his project straigtened out... But after you answered for him it doesnt make sense.. He removed all the 4 wheel drive stuff to increase speed and power.. then he says he maybe able to hit 90 mph with his rear end setup.. Obviously not a speed demon!!
If that is the truck he had to work with, i can understand that.. But why take a 4x4 rip all the transfer case, front diff and axles out and drop 30K into it when your gonna show it but still beat the snot out of it? those 2 statements don't go together, But that's to each is own.. I think he will have a hard time finding a lead guy to fill the truck and for a 90's truck dodge or otherwise its just not worth it IMO, but that's just me...

enjoy the project though and make it what ya want... But id decide if its a race truck :) a beater or a show truck first :D

[hellohello]

im guessing its a beatable show truck, like a median between the two... Nice enough to pick up chicks, and tough enough to pull things and kill small animals.
can u post some pictures? Id like to see what uve been toiling on oh madman of Mopar :D

[audiobliss]

but still beat the snot out of it?

What fun would it be if you didn't beat the snot out of it? I beat the snot out of my Jeep everytime I drive it.

:D


Vinnie - show us some pics!!

[faster100]

Its fun, but not to something ya dump 30k in and suppose to be a show truck.. ya dig? LOL

[audiobliss]

nope...LOL...sorry, I just can't comprehend not taking it to redline at least every other time you take off, bringing the rear-end around on every turn, and screeching the tires at every light (that there's not a cop at behind you).

But, that may just be me.

:D

[MacLeod]

What fun would it be if you didn't beat the snot out of it? I beat the snot out of my Jeep everytime I drive it.

:D





Wait til you have to pay for them.

[audiobliss]

Hmm. A more immediate concern is tires!! hehe

[exalted512]

Wait til you have to pay for them.
exactly
-Cody

[PoweredByDodge]

too rich = poopy - clogs up you converter, makes the insides of your pipes look like **** - carbons up the intake and combustion chamber walls... its bad news. too airy = too hot... just run where you should be and don't both trying to "cheat the system".

it is what it is...

[hellohello]

"too rich = poopy"
I dont know why, but im laughing... a lot

[neomagus00]

"it is what it is" indeed... but you're talking to a physicist here, i have to understand... you know how most little kids ask "why?" about everything? physicists are the people who don't stop... :p

[Jstas]

So when people build NOS motors with lower compression to handle the nitrous shot then can't drive them without the NOs? :rolleyes:

That motor won't blow up without the supercharger, It would be better a chance if you stuck that SC on a non blown motor of blowing it up.. electronics would re-time it back down anyways, you think you run full boost at all times? what ya think the compression is at say 30 -40 mph ? its not near full boost around town at those speeds hence its back at 8 or 9 :1 compression and the computer most likely retards the timing and fuel mixture.. A blown motor is nothing more then a low compression motor with a boost (SC ) to increase compression when needed under med to full throttle conditions.. your set up may vary ....

back to the thread, I'm happy for Vince that he got his project straigtened out... But after you answered for him it doesnt make sense.. He removed all the 4 wheel drive stuff to increase speed and power.. then he says he maybe able to hit 90 mph with his rear end setup.. Obviously not a speed demon!!
If that is the truck he had to work with, i can understand that.. But why take a 4x4 rip all the transfer case, front diff and axles out and drop 30K into it when your gonna show it but still beat the snot out of it? those 2 statements don't go together, But that's to each is own.. I think he will have a hard time finding a lead guy to fill the truck and for a 90's truck dodge or otherwise its just not worth it IMO, but that's just me...




This is crap. Don't listen to word in this post. He obviously has no freaking clue what he is talking about.

Supercharging an engine is NOT running Nitrous through an engine. To achive the same pressure levels inside an engine built for supercharging on as little as 6 pounds of boost, you would need a 250 shot of giggle gas at the least. Even then, that is not street legal and if you got pulled over while on the juice, you'd find out what the inside of a jailcell would look like 'cause nitrous oxide, medial or industrial, is a controlled substance. You'd also get your car impounded.

A supercharged engine has constant boost applied to it. Whether it is at 30 MPH or not doesn't mean jack squat. The number on a stock speedo is disgustingly inaccurate anyway. Boost on a supercharger is determined by not only engine RPM but also pulley ratios and the gear reduction inside the supercharger. Add to that the overall CFM of the supercharger and it's physical capacity be it read in cubic centimeters, liters or cubic inches, it's still displacement. The type of supercharger is important too because a roots blower will not build boost as efficiecntly as a screw-type blower. A screw-type blower also compresses the air while a roots blower is what is known as a positive displacement blower. Basically, it is a big fan and that crams air into the combustion chamber and builds boost that way. The speed of the car has nothing to do with it because I can be travelling at 50 mph in 4th gear and hitting 1800 RPM or I could do it in 1st gear and be hitting 4300 RPM. Care to tell me how much boost I would be running? Wait, better question Mr. Know-it-all, do you even know how much boost the supercharger in my truck makes? You know? Don't bother, I know you're wrong already 'cause you are just going to regurgitate a spec from Ford you found online and I can promise you that I have seen it produce more than that rating on a dynomometer. You do know what one of those is, don't you?

Now, I never said that the engine would "blow up". I said it woudl tear itself apart. How would it do that? Well, for starters, pinging. You obviously, in your mental masturabation here, have proven that you have no freaking clue just how damaging pinging is. Pinging causes stress on a roatating assembly that it was never meant to take. Pinging causes pressure on these parts of a piston called ring lands. These ring lands, when stressed outside of what the parameters on their design specs dictate they were designed for will do a little thing called break. Once they break you get two "phenomena" happening. The first is this neat little thing called BITS OF METAL IN THE ENGINE. For those with even less brains than faster100, that is VERY BAD. Those metal bits are bouncing around in there with a cyclical redundancy of anywhere from 600 times to over 5,000 times per minute. They are chewing up not only the valve seats, the valves, the combustion chamber and that top of the piston but they are also marring the walls of the cylinder. Wanna know why that is so speacial? BECAUSE, if the ring land is broken, you are not getting a proper seal to the wall of the cylinder. An improper seal means a loss in compression. Markings on the cylinders don't help that issue any either. this of course leaves out the fact that you also most likely have a mis-firing spark plug at this point PLUS, you are now experiencing a little problem called "blow-by". Wanna know what that is? That is when the pressurized oil system is forcing motor oil past the rings that are ment to seperate combustion from lubrication. Blow by causes that filtly grayish, blue smoke and ends up coating everything in a filthy soot that destroys performance even more. Another problem with blow by is that you are also getting gasoline into the crankcase. You are getting gasoline into the crankcase because even if you have a V8, you have 7 cylinders operatng normally and one that isn't. The fuel injection system won't always limit fuel delivery on a cylinder by cylinder basis. A few new cars can, most won't. That means that in the cylinder with low compression, you are getting raw, unburned fuel, in the combustion chamber. This oozes down the walls of the cylinder in the other 3 strokes that don't include fire in the operation. Gasoline is thinner that oil so it easily gets past the piston rings. Damaged rings are even easier to get past. Gasoline does't have anywhere near the viscosity of motor oil. The problem there is that it DILUTES the motor oil which drops its viscosity. That drop in viscosity means it doesn't lubricate as well as it should. Know what that means? You have the strong possibility of spinning or seizing a bearing and guess what happens then? You could do a number of things including throwing a rod, punching a connecting rod through a piston, spinning a rod bearing, spinning a main bearing, seizing a rod bearing or even seizing a main bearing. Hell, you could even blow the oil pump and without oil to lube and cool the valve train well, that's just ugly. You know what all that leads to? Yep, a "blown engine".

Now, for this:
"agreed. i meant that if you have the amount of fuel the ecu would put in, expecting there to be the amount of air there would be with a 10:1 effective compression, but really it's getting that fuel with less air (the effective compression being 8.2:1 because the supercharger is disabled), then it would be a rich mixture. if the ecu properly compensates, it's all a moot point anyways."

No, it is not a moot point because you just described a closed-circuit speed density fuel injection system. The only company stupid enough to have been recently using that arcane technology was GM and they did it through most of the 90's in their full-sized trucks and vans. Speed density has an idea of what it needs to run because it has a list of what the values of the air and fuel will be at a given RPM and it adjusts fuel and ignition curves given that information. It doesn't really care what is actually in the engine until the O2 sensor says it is REALLY outta whack or the knock sensor is going bonkers sensing pinging/knocking. The Mass-Air systems and newer systems rely on input from sensors like your Mass Air sensor, your O2 sensor, your knock sensor, your fuel pressure sensor, your oil pressure sensors, your temperature sensor, your idle air control valve...the list goes on. Modern EFI systems take the input from the sensors and adjust your fuel and ignition curves to ensure that the engine is always running at its best for its given configuration. The way it does this is to take the info from the various sensors and use it to extrapolate what the current air/fuel mixture is for the current work load on the engine. It knows what optimum is and it wil adjust fuel and spark to make sure it is as close to the optimum A/F ratio as it can get. If it is extremely far off or does not have input that is within specified parameters or input is not present from a critical system, the computer will switch in to 'limp-home' mode. In most cases it does this by richening the mixture and reducing the amount of ignition timing advance. This reduces overall power and ensures that the engine will not be able to reach it's physical limit, otherwise known as redline, so that when operating under duress, it is in little danger of destroying itself unless left in 'limp-home' more for an extended period of time.

The problems with limp-home mode are quite a few. Yes, the reduced power will save the engine in the short term. The reduced power through an overly rich mixture occurs because the engine has to work harder to get the unspent fuel out of the system. Also, since the air/fuel ratio is not optimum, there is too much fuel to burn and combustion doesn't occur as quickly. That unspent fuel ends up in the catalytic converter and leads to slagging which was discussed in another thread. Excess fuel in the combustion chamber can also lead to cylinder washing. This occurs when the excess gasoline washes the oh so vital lubrictaing motor oil from the cylinder walls and results in less then optimal levels of lubricant being present to ensure trouble-free motion of the piston in the cylinder. This leads to things like scoring of the cylinder walls and worn out rings which lead to blow by and loss of compression and we discussed that already.

[Jstas]

Sorry, it said my post was too long so here is the rest...all 13K+ characters of it.


Now, why can Vinnie only hit 90 MPH? Because he has 3.91's on a final gear! In gearing, the higher the number, the shorter the gear. 2.87:1 is a very tall gear ratio. It doesn't mean that the vehicle is capable of a high speed. High speed comes with power. Lots of power. Vinnie's 3.91's do not mean that he is capable of only 90 MPH. In actuality, he is quite wrong because I do believe that his engine makes sufficient power to push him well past 100 MPH. The 3.91's means that he is going to do the same amount of work as the 2.87's only he's going to do it .73 times faster. That means that his truck, when lined up against a comparable truck with the only difference being the other truck as 2.87''s vs. his 3.91's, Vinnie will get to his top speed much quicker. However, his overall top speed will be considerably slower, probably over 10 MPH slower. That is, if we didn't have to compensate for aerodynamic drag and the many forces of friction operating against the trucks to roll down the test track.

Now, who wants a primer on how to build a Nitrous Oxide engine vs. a forced induction engine?

By the way, NOS in the automotive world is an abbrevaition for New Old Stock. When reffering to Nitrous Oxide, the chemical name is not NOS but rather NO2. However, the 2 is an exponential form and most forums do not support exponential fonts. For those that do not know where the relationship between nitrous oxide and NOS comes from, it's quite simple. NOS is what the kiddies who drive the Honduh Civics use to refer to Nitrous Oxide Systems, a company that builds power-adder systems for your car that utilize nitrous oxide (NO2) as the power adder. The only people who use the term "NOS" are the short bus riders who want to look cool and make people think they have a clue as to what they are talking about. It is insulting to those of us who do because we actually took the time to learn and didn't get our education from a bunch of wannabe hot rodders on an internet forum.

Why do I get pissed about this? Because, I learned the hows and whys. I read the books, I got my hands dirty. I've raced the cars, I've built the engines, I've broken the parts, I've been left on the side of the road holding the assemblance of what used to be a vital part in my hands waiting for the tow truck to pick my sorry ass up. I've been there, done that and I've gotten quite a few T-shirts. I have forgetten more about automotive stuff than most people will know in thier entire lives. I have the skill. I've put in the time. I am so good at it that I can make an honest living at it and I don't even have an ASE certification. I do make an honest living at it come to think of it. I work as a diesel mechanic part time to help make ends meet while my wife is laid up with injuries from a car accident. Hell, I've even worked parts counters. I don't mind being questioned, I will gladly share the knowledge. What I take acception to is when an asshat on an internet forum feels the need to question something and then throws in thier half-asses, nitwit, appraisal laced with attitude and cockeyness all the while trying to school me. I may not know everything and I know I don't but there are a few things that many people who know me consider me an expert on and I'll be damned if some whiney little cry-baby on an Internet forum is going try and make an ass out of me when I'm talking about it.

[exalted512]

isnt the 2 in NO2 a subscript and not exponential? One atom of nitrogen, 2 atoms of oxygen. Hopefully I'm right so I can feel like i contributed something to this thread:D
-Cody

[faster100]

John you are a nut!! :D I'm not even reading that cluster of a rant.. Ive been working and toying with cars for years.. I'm pretty sure i'm older then you and aside from that.. The NOS reference was just that, a reference... kind of an example.. your stupid lightning wont blow up without the supercharger period!!


Oh my god, I just skimmed through that mess (still can't bear to try and read that one huge paragraph) you know nothing about what i know about motors and cars/trucks!! I only questioned your comment about your motor tearing itself apart without the blower... and you went ass wall on a rant as you always do trying to degrade me and make yourself look like a asshat, I have about 6 GOOD friends all with bad ass cars and about 50 people that we used to go out street racing for years with until the crack down.. we call it squeeze or spray, NOT ( I'm running NO2) :rolleyes: I myself have had about 20 cars all old, all worked on myself and with my friends, 4 nova's, 1 camaro, a monza and a truck and many others.. NOT a mass marketed FORD lightning... pleazzze John.. you are so far off base with your rant it's sickening, and you ask why nobody talked to you at polkfest.. :confused: :confused: someone tries your word and you write what would be about 10 paragraphs if you knew how to write of pure rant!!

get a life and learn some more at pepboys!!

[neomagus00]

wow, that went downhill quickly...


As far as how necessary it is on my truck, well, since compression tops out at a "lofty" 8.2:1, the engine would not be able to run properly without the 8 psi or boost to raise the effective compression ratio up to about 10:1. Running without the supercharger, the engine will ping like crazy and tear itself apart unless the computer dials back ignition timing and makes the fuel/air mixture super rich.
translation: "my engine will detonate and move into limp-home mode if there is less boost available"

but how much boost do you get at 1000 rpm? if you get 8 psi at 6k, you have a damn fine supercharger if you get anywhere near that at idle, and i'm assuming you do idle on occasion, without 'blowing your engine'... and you mentioned the ecu... i specifically tried to come up with cases that didn't involve the ecu, because as you mentioned, any decent ecu will read the real amount of air coming in and put in the right amount of fuel, adjusting timing and so on by the various sensor inputs... so the question that i still have, if you deign to answer it, is, "why can't your ecu handle less air?"...

[faster100]

exactly!! Ford didn't design a motor that couldn't tune down for idle, around town drivieng... and if you think that truck runs anywhere near full boost at 30 mph your are having lightning pipe dreams.. all the lightnings ive seen at the track were slow as ****.

[PoweredByDodge]

i'm in the middle of a paper that is due in 2 hours so i'll be brief and respond in full later...

.... john, i haven't done the math yet - probably never will... but i figure at 90 mph i oughta be doing around 3,500 - 4,000 rpms. i wouldn't want to run the motor any higher than that for a long period of time (such as highway driving or what not), so thats why i figure a "top highway speed" of 90 or so. i imagine if i dragged it, and was only "temporarily" getting that high, i could probably get into the 110's or more.

... and 'faster100' - dude... every lightning i ever saw was quick as hell. as much as i'm a mopar nut, i still think the srt-ram is a "copycat" of the lightning (the whole idea of a high power sport truck that is, not the actual designs - two different animals). There were two fords that would ever be allowed a home in my driveway... a Mustang Mach One with a stick shift (the 2003 model), and a second generation Lightning.

... as far as full boost - what are you defining as full boost? 40 pounds? or 5 pounds, or what ?? I doubt they're throwing 30 or 40 pounds through there without blowing the top end right off the block - you're only going to see that on heavy diesels and wicked race motors, but I don't doubt that there's 4 - 6 pounds of boost even during "city driving".

[Jstas]

Ugh, you both know nothing about engine management and very little about superchargers.

My supercharger makes about 10 pounds of boost at 6,000 RPM. Shame the engine won't run that fast though, huh? It only hits about 5200 RPM and cuts out boost at 8 psi through the wastegate at around 4500 RPM. At 1,000 RPM, the supercharger is pushing 2 pounds of boost and at idle it is on vaccum. However, that has nothing to do with what either of you are trying to say. Just because the engine will idle without drawing boost doesn't mean that it will run well or even at all without the supercharger. idling uses less than 10% of total fuel system capacity and in most cars, the values is actually close to 2-5% of total fuel system volume. ANY engine can run like that.

Also, I never said that "any decent ecu" will do anything. A speed density ECU is a decent ECU and it will not do half of what you are stating any decent ECU will do. As far as your question, I did answer it. You don't understand the answer. I will make it simple. The ECU does use air. It uses electrons.

It is not the ECU that can't handle less air, it is the engine itself. The ECU tries to compensate for poor environmental conditions and still match the optimum A/F ratio. If it cannot resolve that optimum A/F ratio, it determines that there must be a problem, turns on the check engine light and cuts power.




Lastly faster100, you are a jackass, through and through. I can get the truck running at 30 MPH in 1st gear and be pushing full boost without a problem. Boost has nothing to do with speed you moron. I've said it already, it has to do with engine RPM. Your transmission is designed so that you can utilize your engine's power band for better, more efficient acceleration. The overall speed of teh vehicle has nothing to do with how much pressure is being put out by your supercharger/turbocharger.

As far as your comment about learning more at Pep Boys, go **** yourself. Your "experience" is lackluster at best and it is obvious that you have not a clue about what you are talking about. I can run down the laundry list of vehicles I have owned and built myself. I can list a bunch of friends with hot cars too. However, one thing none of the people I associate with do is street racing. Only idiots street race. However, I don't need to potificate on all the stuff I might know through association. Go look up anything I have written and tell me if I am wrong.

[faster100]

blaH BLAH blah bl freakin ah!! keep digging a hole assstas :D A poster asked me to edit my original post so i spared your drama and edited out some stuff.. Far as street racing mister text book answers, no one would let ya run that slow ass rustang wanna be anyways..


Next! :)

[neomagus00]

::sigh::... i give up... can we close this thread or something? sorry, pbd, that i trainwrecked what was supposed to be a happy story...

[Jstas]

blaH BLAH blah bl freakin ah!! keep digging a hole assstas :D A poster asked me to edit my original post so i spared your drama and edited out some stuff.. Far as street racing mister text book answers, no one would let ya run that slow ass rustang wanna be anyways..


Next! :)


You've yet to post anything factual or debunk anything I have written. Instead of offering anything constructive, you do nothing but try to instigate a flame war with your childish, moronic ramblings and insults. You have only served to discredit yourself. Have fun living in blissful ignorance.



neo, you didn't derail anything. I apologize if I came off too harshly in response to your honest questions. You didn't do anything and again, I apologize if I was over-bearing or too harsh. All I was initially trying to do was give Vinnie a hard time. We have spoken quite a few times about his truck and all the problems he has had with it. He was supposed to be at PolkFest and didn't make it because of the truck having problems. vinnie just didn't respond in time before people started asking questions concerning my tongue-in-cheek remarks towards Vinnie.

[faster100]

Call ford and see what they say numbnuts!! know it all.. :rolleyes: why people don't like you here,

[Jstas]

The information I have came from an SVT certified tech at the dealer that sponsors the SVTOA chapter that I belong to. I don't have to call Ford, I already know what they said and if you read my posts instead of crying like a little bitch, you would know what they said too. That information was also corroborated by a tuner that works with Lightnings and Cobras and reprograms the ECMs all day long on his DynoJet dynomometer.

Why don't you come up with some facts already and stop playing the hurt little kid? I could understand all this whining and crying if it was something a bit more abstract like child raising or the best way to catch a fish or something but this topic is quite concrete. The info is out there. All you have to do to get one over on me is to look it up. If you are correct, you get to be the cool guy again. If you are wrong, you will just look like the ass that you are. That's all you gotta do. You have a 50/50 chance. Those odds are pretty good. Why not take the chance?

Hell, I'll tell you what. If you go look it up and I turn out to be correct you don't even have to post saying so. You can just lose the little bitch act and go on about your business and we will never speak of this again.

[faster100]

John why does a skinny little jersey loud mouth have to puff his chest up so damm much!! I originally just said your motor wouldn't blow up if the SC were removed.. you turned it into john's tough guy bull**** thread!! you turned it into name calling 101 (first might i add) I don't have to prove or call ford cause i don't give a eff about **** bag ford trucks that are slow.. I stated one comment, never said i knew everything or even anything about your truck... I said the motor will lean back, retard time and run ok without the SC... So if ya wanna act like a ******* and call me names and try to play the tough guy and try and spin it on me... GO ahead.. your a punk who thinks his word is the be all end all.. and i'm just sitting here laughing

and i'm playing the hurt little kid? Id say yeah if i cared and had my feelings hurt, But your the one who took offense over your precious lightning


keep it coming john,

[jdhdiggs]

Valium, we need some valium here, is there a doctor in the house?

[Jstas]

OK, so at first you care enough to tell me I am full of it and then give "proof" that is completely irrelevant to the point. On top of that, you are cocky and arrogant about it and continue to further show your ignorance concerning top speed and gearing.

Then you change your story and tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. you offer no solid proof whatsoever that I am wrong, only your own uninformed opinion which you try to establish credibility through association by proxy because you have a few buddies with "bad ass" cars and you used to street race. Yet you have yet to demonstrate this knowledge level and resort to telling me that you refuse to read my post and try to debunk what I wrote through personal attacks, not necessarily name calling.

Then you changed your story again. You decided that it was best to try and destroy my character and credibility through insults and claims about the performance of the truck. You also try to use the "you merely own x-brand of vehicle and that means you don't have the knowledge because you don't work on x-brand vehicle" card. That, in itself is inaccurate because I know many people who know cars inside and out but they don't fix them. They pay someone else to do it because they have the means to do so. That suits them. Does it make them any less of an expert? Nope, it doesn't. No experience turning a wrench does not equate to ignorance on the subject.

Then you change your tune again and now you say that it doesn't matter to you. then again, if it didn't matter to you, would you have posted so many times? Would you have tried to desperatly to disprove the one guy that people like even less than you? You care. You keep posting, you keep trying to defend your stance with nothing of substance and ignorance. You care much more than you are letting on.

So I'll say again, show some proof.

[faster100]

It doesnt matter to me enough to "prove" it to you... I simply said it wouldnt blow up.. end of story.

I never changed anything, "my story" as you say :rolleyes:

It simply doesn't matter to get all tiffed about it, Fine your truck is bad ass and it has a SC WOW!! you wouldnt take the damm blower off anyways.. so **** it, you win...

call me some more names and try and spin it john, spin baby spin **sigh**

I'm done, sorry for the derail PBD... rant to someone else, I'm tired of it :rolleyes:

[audiobliss]

Wow. There is a ton of information in this thread.

:eek:

[Mike B.]

Wow. There is a ton of information in this thread.

:eek:
Yeah ,but some of the "tuning" for a S/C doesnt quite jive w/me.

[jdhdiggs]

Wow. There is a ton of information in this thread.

:eek:

Use at your own risk... :(

[Jstas]

Wait a minute. I never tried to get anyone to believe that my truck was bad ass. I never even stated that. Don't try to make an issue out of something that isn't there.



Also, I trying hard to see where anyone mentioned anything about 'the "tuning" for a S/C'. All anyone was talking about was what would happen if an engine setup for supercharging was run without the supercharger.

I'm also trying to figure out why it is risky to use any info in this thread? No real info for configuration or tuning was given. All that was discussed was engine management systems.

[PoweredByDodge]

God all frickin mighty!!!!

Let it go guys.

my 2 c and then my truck comments....

2c --> I am not knowledgeable of turbo's or superchargers in any way to be able to factually contribute to this conversation. But again, I will debunk anyone who feels the lightning is a "average" or "just above average speed/performance" vehicle. I have actually had the opportunity to test out some of them... and I don't mean at dealerships. I have yet to get into another truck (actually even any modern muscle cars either) that light up the tires and barrel down the straight like the lightning does. The SRT-ram didn't quite get it right - it's too tall, too much body roll, too much truck. It responds like a brick with a jet pack strapped to it... the lightning moves like a panther. It's one of the few things in life that I am willing to just say, "I don't know exactly why, but it works, and therefore I like it". My guess would be that same motor built "normal" without the goodies would be a pig just like most other small block v8's out of the box. But that's not the point. Everything is a pig until you pay close attention to its details, engineer parts to add, and re-engineer existing components of it - so as to tune it for maximum performance (while also keeping in mind htat you have to pass emissions tests and all that jazz - and you don't want to build something so wicked that everybody ends up dead behind the wheel).

onto the other stuff...

I'll try to answer all of these in some sense of order...

1- WHY 2 WHEEL DRIVE??

..... There are a few reasons. First, the entire build of this truck was to recapture my first truck's essence. I didn't fall in love with dodge because it's some kind of great vehicle or something (no you cannot quote me on that); i just had an old beat up ram that i really got attached to. The damn thing was a D-150 2 wheel drive with a slant six and a 727 torqueflite stock. 130 something piddily horespower. So when I went truck shopping, I could only find ONE damn truck that wasn't a piece of crap... same year, same body, same everything, except it was a 4x4 with a 13" lift (body and suspension) and 35" swampers on it. body is immaculate (dented but no rot anywhere, very solid, perfet for restoring) and the frame is like a rock. Now, even after I pulled all the damn lifts out, I still had a truck that was at STOCK 4x4 height... which is a healthy 5 or more inches taller than the 2 wheel drive trucks of that day -- there were two blocks in the rear (stock), a 3" and a 2". The front had a 5 pack leaf set that looked like most rear ends. In the 80's, 4x4's were beasts of burden, not daily drivers... they were built accordingly. So... I wanted to get the height somewhere near what my old truck was. So I took the 2" block out of the back. That made the damn truck lower in back than in the front. Then I took 2 leafs out of the 5 leaf pack (yes I checked to be sure the 3 leaf remainder will be strong enough for daily driving - no it won't handle offroading or wild abuse) and added "helper leafs" ... this allowed me to loose 1 1/2 inches from the simple metal that the leafs were made of, then another 1/2 inch from the removed strength of the super duty leafs. I then redrilled the shackles to allow me to "shorten" them... this gave me another 3/4 inch drop in the front. The helper leafs dont "kick in" till you put some weight on the front end. So they don't affect height, but they'll help out of I hit a wicked bump or something. I then had to relocate the power steering gear box (simply redrilled the mounting plate for it so that it can be about an inch an a half above its previous location -- keeps hte steering geometry stock so i dont have to play with it). Now in doing all this it became apparent that the dana 44 up front was in the way, literally. I do not have a very powerful motor - its not some 500 horse beast... so why waste parasitic draw on a transfer case? So I was able to kill about 800 pounds by getting rid of the dana 44 and the transfer case. I also saved money because those were now parts i didn't need to replace. I gained room under the chassis for plumbing and exhaust and **** as well - made the job easier. all i did was torch the spindle mounts off and weld them onto a solid 3" diamter / 0.75" wall pipe (which cost me 230 bucks new). So stock geometry is the same everywhere. Also - I wanted a venerable torqueflite - and you cannot have a TRUE torqueflite with 4wd.

I got what I wanted... a height about halfway between 2wd and 4wd stock heights (i can't go all the way down to 2wd height, physically impossible without huge modifications), a torqueflite, and something to do.

2 - Why spend that much money??

Because it's my baby. I will keep this truck till I'm long dead. I intend to drive it 3 to 5 months out of hte year, maybe 4 - 5 thousand miles a year... and i will keep up on it... every year before it "goes to sleep for the winter" - i will go over it with a fine tooth comb and fix anything that may have been messed up by the year's driving. You have to understand, I took the body right off of it... I power washed and wire brushed the frame after every line was off... put between 35 and 40 cans of 3M rubberized undercoating all over the frame, axles, etc etc... ran stainless steel fuel lines... reused the stock stainless steel brake lines because they actually are like new (yes i was shocked too). Every single part on this truck... and I mean right down to the goddamn bolts, is new -- the only "old" parts are the steering knuckles, the gas tank, the rear axle (rebuilt it), and the gas tank (drained and flushed it -- kept the rubber neck tho, it was clean). Everything else, while it may be ugly in places under there, is either brand new or purchased remanufactured. Oh I forgot - the dashboard, seat, and body panels are not new. But I have a new seat coming soon (stock replica), and I've got every single piece of trim (rubber, chrome, etc - including the grille, headlight bezels, door handles, window trims, weather stripping, tail lights, bumpers, etc) sitting in my attic as new old stock or new aftermarket replacements. I also built my own electrical system right down to the goddamn ignition - from scratch - i've got something like 40 or 50 relays in that truck with a 20 slot fuse block. every stitch of it is new or rebuilt.

3 - drive it or show it or what??

i'm not building it so some freak can jerk off while he looks at it. I built it so I can go romping down the road with a cigarette in my hand and two 6x9's behind the seat screaming all the wrong words to every Billy Idol song I ever heard. Oh - the audio got nixed... I needed the money to repair the motor... ended up doing two Polk DB 6x9's and an MTX road thunder sub - runs off a 4 channel amp (bridged the rear channel to the sub) -- sits in a box behind the seat - looks like a dead ringer for my "first system" in that same truck - looks good - "fits the truck" i think. I even rebuilt the old alpine 7863 with some spare parts so i could put it in there - works nice.

anyway - i built it for me to enjoy - but i am picky - and believe me, when its all spit and polish, it will be more than show worthy - i've seen many show cars, and some are great... but while mine may not be the best ofthem all, it will certainly be worthy of sitting in the lanes with the rest of them - a testament to hard work and conviction - besides, the engine paint job looks better than most people's body paint jobs... and that's AFTER ripping it apart twice in the truck.


definition of "beat on it" -- when i say i intend to beat on it i mean i intend to drive it like i stole it, tear tires off of it like noboy's business, get plenty of speeding tickets, jump over curbs and other small obstacles just because i can, go camping with it occasionally, take it on vacation, and generally just use it as a reliable form of transportation for leisure... i don't intend to ever pull anything with it - the only reason the class 3 hitch is staying on the back (after being welded to the frame and rust proofed along with everything else - see i think ahead!) is so that if i end up stuck in a ditch or something, the tow truck can pull me out by the hitch - and hopefully not do any more damage to it... tow truck drivers are idiots... honestly.


4- body work??

I'm nto having trouble finding a lead fill guy - already got one. truck was lead filled at the factory - thats how i want it done. i dont care about the money. what the hell is money going to get me? my old man is hackin up a lung more and more every day - he sat on that goddamn cadillac for 15 years... it rotted to death. what enjoyment did he get out of it? none - but he wouldn't sell it because he was attached - so i finally got him to part with cash and we put it back together... didn't do anything extravagant like with the truck, but actually the car didn't need it - just needed a good tune up, a carb, an exhaust and a great paint job - he's happy as a PIG IN **** now... and he's saying to me "i should have done this years ago". the great american love affair with the car isnt going to end anytime soon - being practical isn't part of being alive. if i was practical i'd be driving a saturn or a kia rio.

imma get my homie g with the digicam over here hopefully tonite so we can throw some pictures around.

... oh - and why a 3 speed torqueflite with a 1500 stall converter, 10 to 1 compression up front and 3.91 gears? because i never intend to hit a race track or the salt flats.... but i do want to scare the living **** out of everyone on the road... and there's nothing like zero to 40 faster than you can say "oh ****" to put the fear of god into people. the great thing is - all of that stuff is stock parts (just from different years - hence my big problems with making everything work)

[Mike B.]

Also, I trying hard to see where anyone mentioned anything about 'the "tuning" for a S/C'. All anyone was talking about was what would happen if an engine setup for supercharging was run without the supercharger. .
I was being sarcastic, but I know for a fact you can drive a Vw that is setup for a S/C (9to 1 comp, injectors twice the factory size,...), without the blower installed, the ecu is just referancing maps from the air flow, TPS(no referance to Office Space), and o2's. It just cuts back the fuel, and adds timing .
Ive learned alot in the last few years tweeking the Vortech V-2 on my Golf, but still not brave enough to flash my own software yet.

I wanna see pics of your "toys".

[Jstas]

I was being sarcastic, but I know for a fact you can drive a Vw that is setup for a S/C (9to 1 comp, injectors twice the factory size,...), without the blower installed, the ecu is just referancing maps from the air flow, TPS(no referance to Office Space), and o2's. It just cuts back the fuel, and adds timing .
Ive learned alot in the last few years tweeking the Vortech V-2 on my Golf, but still not brave enough to flash my own software yet.

I wanna see pics of your "toys".

I don't have a whole lot of experience with VW's that aren't air cooled. I do know that VW works a hell of alot of magic in the VR6 ECM and it is quite different from other fuel injection systems. Then again, a 9.0:1 compression ratio is not exactly forced induction friendly on pump gas. However, I have seen more radical stuff in the VR6 engines with people running as much as 10.5 on a turbo setup and still managing to run 94 octane Sunoco Ultra with driveability problems that I wouldn't care to live with in a daily driver. That's just me though.

Vinnie doesn't have too many pictures of his toys and when he does have them, he doesn't post them although he promises to do so all the time! ;)

[hellohello]

damn, i wanted to see the truck. oh well. So basically pbd, you have the truck set up for acceleration and not top speed, correct?

[audiobliss]

...I wanna see it...

[PoweredByDodge]

damn, i wanted to see the truck. oh well. So basically pbd, you have the truck set up for acceleration and not top speed, correct?

pretty much - "quick responsiveness, a nice little growl outa the tail pipe, enough 'juice' to pass most other cars, and the durability to do so for years to come".


and john - "yo mamma" - while i did post something like 30 pictures of the 2003, that gets "no luv from da white man!". i'm waitin for jack to get off his ass and bring the digital camera over -- i'm too cheap to buy my own.

imma dump a whole sheet-load on here just to make you eat a lightly toasted crow with some duck "a la range" sauce -- er something to that effect... mmm duck al la range -- i think that stuff is tasty - i saw it in a chinese place once... looked like cat though. cat a la range. -- :p

[Jstas]

and john - "yo mamma" - while i did post something like 30 pictures of the 2003, that gets "no luv from da white man!". i'm waitin for jack to get off his ass and bring the digital camera over -- i'm too cheap to buy my own.


Just bustin' your stones dude.

[hellohello]

yay... i know whats going on! :)

[PoweredByDodge]

my stones were removed in a freak accident - they tried to use one of my fingers to make a new "happy place" for me - but it didn't work out - i've been emotionally traumatized every since - (reference - jeff foxworthy on blue collar comedy trour)

[hellohello]

^ so in that case you really are grabbin life by the ovaries? :p

[Jstas]

my stones were removed in a freak accident - they tried to use one of my fingers to make a new "happy place" for me - but it didn't work out - i've been emotionally traumatized every since - (reference - jeff foxworthy on blue collar comedy trour)


Ok...then, uh....I was...uh...smashin' your finger?