Will I Be Happy With The MMC6500?

[JawKnee]

In short, I will be keeping my stock head unit in my 2005 S2000. I plan to add an appropriate amp to power whatever front speakers I decide to upgrade to, should I decide to upgrade at all.

With that said, I'm looking to add some volume and clarity to help combat road and wind noise, especially when the top is down. I assume having an amp will achieve that. Perhaps more diserable would be some more "punch/bass" than what my stock system provides but WITHOUT the addition of any subwoofer.

So while retaining the stock HU and adding an appropriate amplifier, will the MMC6500 provide me that "punch/bass"? Or does my requirement of retaining the rather crappy stock HU and adding an amplifier to go along with these speakers a horrible idea due to me retaining the stock HU?

If these speakers will deliver what I want, how would I set the crossover up? I see the frequency response of these speakers go as low as 43Hz but will or should I bypass the crossover and run them as full range in order to get the "punch/bass" I want? If that is a bad idea, where should I cross them over at?

Finally, I was thinking of going with the JL Audio 300/2 amplifier but is that too much power? If so, perhaps you could recommend a good 2 channel amplifier that will do the job that would be under $300? The MMC6500 seem to handle 125 watts continuous.

Thanks for you input!!!

[hellohello]

well, the punch/bass kinda depends on the type of music, if ur listenin to club type music, then ull need at least one sub because the mmc6500s wont be enough, but if its not such bass heavy music, and ur not trying to shake the bolts out from the undercarriage, then you should be ok with the mmc6500s. the crossover thats supplied with the 6500's is prettymuch set to complement the speakers. just use the amp fullrange into the crossovers, they take care of the rest.

[neomagus00]

agreed, mostly... i'm a convertible owner myself, and i know that with the top down you'll likely need to change the highpass xover point from its top-up position - you want the music to be loud enough to hear, but the speakers can't handle the bass at that volume... you'll see what i mean... i have my top-down xover at 63 Hz (any lower and the midrange starts to get muddy), but top-up is 80... yours will likely be much more drastic, like 50/125, because of the way my system is set up...

the problem here is that, without an aftermarket HU, you're pretty much stuck with turning the 'bass' control down when the top is down, then putting it back to normal with the top up... what are your reasons for not getting a new HU? or subwoofer?

and yes, the mmc6500 is an excellent choice, as is the 300/2...

[hellohello]

oh, its a convertible, didnt realize that.. now I think i know why he doesnt want a aftermarket h/u :p

[JawKnee]

I'm definitely not looking to have bass where the cars next to me at the stoplight can hear and feel. Just some more oomph than what my stock system has now. For what it's worth, I find the stock system in my old E46 BMWs (non-HK upgrade) and my '04 WRX to be just fine.

The reason why I want to retain the stock HU is mainly due to the fact that I have the factory changer and don't want to shell out additional money for an aftermarket changer should I get an aftermarket HU. As for adding a subwoofer, my car frequents the track (road course) and I don't really care for the added weight let alone taking up the little room I have to begin with.

I can get a REALLY good deal on these speakers so I think I'll give them a try. However, are there any other options for amps that I should consider in addtion to the JL Audio 300/2? Would a 4 channel be better so I can use 2 channels for the tweeter and the other 2 for the mid?

Thanks for your input!!

[MacLeod]

Here ya go. (http://www.cardomain.com/item/POLC3002)

Just as good as the JL but $200 less.

Youll need a sub to get the bass youre looking for and dont think that having a sub means everybody in the world is going to hear you. A good 10" with 300-400 watts properly tuned will be a great addition and you probably wont hear it outside the car.

[neomagus00]

normally i'd heartily agree with mac on the necessity of a sub, but if you're satisfied with stock systems, i'd say you'd be overwhelmed by a sub... until you get upgradeitis, that is :p... but really, just for your information, there are a host of small and light subs that would fit your specs and really open up a whole new world of music to you, if and when you decide to go down that path...

and you're right, biamping with a 4-channel amp may be preferable for you because you have less tuning options from your stock HU (no problem keeping that, btw, you'll just need to pick up an LOC, line output converter)... the 400.4 (http://www.cardomain.com/item/POLC4004) would work very well, but it is rather above your budget... look around that cardomain site, and come back with a few choices, we can help you narrow it further... btw, this being a polk forum and me being a polk fanatic, that 400.4 will serve you very well far into the future, should you decide to get it...

[audiobliss]

I most definitely second the recommendation of Polk amps. And the MMC6500 is awesome.

[MacLeod]

If you ever put a sub in your car youll wonder how you survived without it. You dont know what youre missing til you know what youre missing.

[neomagus00]

finally! a quotable quote to supplant pbd! see my new signature... :D

[MacLeod]

Yes, my wisdom knows no bounds! :D

[exalted512]

i thought it was "my wisdom nos know bounds"?
-Cody

[audiobliss]

ROFL...yeah, that'll work...

[JawKnee]

Your guys' input has been greatly appreciated!

So I'm still not sure on whether or not a 2-channel or 4-channel amp would be best for my scenario -- stock HU, the MMC6500 and no sub, rear aftermarket speakers will remain powered off of stock HU. I guess I could bi-amp with the 4 channel and maybe that's the better route?

Here's what I'm looking:

JL Audio 300/2 new for about $300 OTD
Phoenix Gold Xenon 100.4 (used) for $125 OTD
Polk Audio C300.2 new for about $170 OTD
Pok Audio c400.4 new for about $280 OTD

Which would be the "best" option for me?

[MacLeod]

If youre going to run rear speakers I highly recommend amping them so in your case I would get the Polk 400.4 and run all 4 speakers off of them. If youre going to get an amp in the future, snag a 300.2 and youll be set.

[JawKnee]

If youre going to run rear speakers I highly recommend amping them so in your case I would get the Polk 400.4 and run all 4 speakers off of them. If youre going to get an amp in the future, snag a 300.2 and youll be set.

The rear speakers I have mounted in the S2000 (not there by default) were added for volume so I feel very confident that running them off of the stock HU would be perfectly fine. They're located directly behind the seat, almost at the middle of the back -- so not a great location so that's why I think amping them would be a "waste".

I guess I assumed a 4 channel would be better served with 2 channels for the tweets and 2 channels for the mid?

[MacLeod]

Yeah, bi-amping is the best way to run but straight wiring is not a bad thing by any means it just has a little less flexibility in tuning.

I dont like running rear speakers off the head unit because 1- its hard to level match them and 2- the head units going to be making a lot of dirty power.

If you amp your rears you can adjust them to where they add rear fill to the fronts and not overpower them or screw up your stage.

[jroberts_101]

Just a suggestion- you could also get a sub in the back and then take it out easily when you go to the track. When I go to the drag strip I can easily unplug the two wires , positive and negative, running to my sub box, and I am good to go. You should consider this because the only reason you said you wouldn't need a sub is because you track the car.

--John

[audiobliss]

I would suggest getting a 4-channel ampl (the Polk would be awesome) and bi-amping the MMC6500s and forgetting the rear speakers. You shouldn't need them anymore.

Now, about bass. I would also recommend you getting a sub. Being a convertible, especially when the top is down, it's gonna be really hard to get any kind of pressure built-up in there. You'll need a sub. And you'll love it if you ever get one. My friend has a WRX STi that he races on a track, and he just yanks his sub box out of the trunk when he goes to the track. You can just mount the amp to the sub box so they'll both come out real easily when you go to the track.

[JawKnee]

Audiobliss, I'm leaning towards a 4-channel amp and biamping the MMC6500s and letting my rears be powered off of the stock HU.

With that said, which of the following should I go for:

Phoenix Gold Xenon 100.4 used (less than 2 hours) from a friend for about $125, the Polk Audio POLC4004 (new) for about $280 out the door, or go with a 2 channel such as the Polk Audio POLC3002 for about $170 out the door? Of course, there is always the JL Audio 300/2 (~300 OTD) or 300/4 (~350 OTD).

[audiobliss]

Well, coming from a purely objective stand point, I'd rather have the Polk 4004. And though that's a pretty good price on it, the Phoenix Gold at $125 is a good price, too. Stay away from the JL stuff just because the other two options are as good and much cheaper.

So, I'd personally prefer the Polk, but either would probably serve you just fine.

[exalted512]

Well, coming from a purely objective stand point, I'd rather have the Polk 4004. And though that's a pretty good price on it, the Phoenix Gold at $125 is a good price, too. Stay away from the JL stuff just because the other two options are as good and much cheaper.

So, I'd personally prefer the Polk, but either would probably serve you just fine.
youre coming along nicely
-Cody

[audiobliss]

At first I was quite pleased to see that someone much more knowledgeable than I had endorsed my recommendations. However, I'm now beginning to suspect that your positive comment was motivated purely by my stance on the JL equipment.

:( :p

[exalted512]

someone much more knowledgeable
yup...coming along VERY nicely
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Youre right bliss. While JL Audio is excellent, super dooper, top shelf goods (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sauer/angry-smiley-047.gif Cody) the Polks are just as good and cheaper!

[audiobliss]

hey, watch it, Cody!! I'm a Polk Expert just like you!!!

*sticks tongue out*

:D

[JawKnee]

Nevermind

[JawKnee]

Some more questions from me :)

I'll be bi-amping the MMC6500s with the Phoenix Gold Xenon 100.4 for the time being. Installation will be done by this weekend -- I'm just waiting for a few more items.

This 4-channel amp has a low pass and high pass crossover, with the frequency adjustable from 40HZ to 400HZ with a 24dB per octave slope. The high and low pass crossovers have seperate on/off buttons and when BOTH are set to ON, a bandpass filter is created for the set of channels. The MMC6500's crossovers are 2.6kHz 2nd order High & Low Pass.

With that said, how do I adjust the settings on my amp? Do I leave the amp's crossovers off so the MMC6500's crossovers see an unprocessed signal from the amp? Doing so results in the mid/woofer running in full-range mode then?

Or would I be better served by turning on the high pass crossover (eliminating low frequencies) on the amp to something like 87Hz, 99Hz, or higher?

For those interested, the manual for my amp with the crossover information can be found on page 8 in the following PDF: ftp://anonymous:anonymous@208.187.38.55/Phoenix_Gold/Manuals/Amplifiers/XENON/xenonampmanual.pdf

Thanks again for everyone's input so far! I can't wait to get everything up and running this weekend!

[neomagus00]

i would personally set the highpass at ~70 Hz, but that's up to you - anywhere you like it is fine... you'll be running one pair of channels straight into the mids, but the other pair goes through the xover first before going to the tweeter... (just making sure you don't blow your tweets! :D)

[MacLeod]

Dude, that is an awful lot of amp for those speakers. Those are 120 watt speakers and youre going to be feeding them over 200. I would suggest straight wiring them. If you do bi-amp them be very careful with those gains cause 250 watts is more than capable of ripping those MM's, or most any speaker, to shreds.

[audiobliss]

Bi-amp them, please. But do set the gains right and use some common sense when turning it up, or you'll be looking for some new speakers.

[JawKnee]

Yeah, I'll definitely be paying close attention to my gains on the amp. I have them set to zero to start off-- it's not installed yet. I assume I'll barely move them beyond that when I'm done tuning the system.

I was a little worried if the amp was too much as well, but I know the manual for the MMC6500s mentioned bi-amping with the Polk C400.4 (another 100x4) so I assume I'll be okay with the Phoenix Gold Xenon 100.4.

[JawKnee]

i would personally set the highpass at ~70 Hz, but that's up to you - anywhere you like it is fine... you'll be running one pair of channels straight into the mids, but the other pair goes through the xover first before going to the tweeter... (just making sure you don't blow your tweets! :D)

Actually, I believe I run both channels through the crossovers during bi-amping, which is what I'm doing.

So any other input regarding what I set the high and low pass crossovers on my amp?

[neomagus00]

sorry... ::sheepish look::... i forgot the mmc6500 xovers are biampable... gain walkthrough (http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/dhuston/gains.html), if you want it...

[JawKnee]

sorry... ::sheepish look::... i forgot the mmc6500 xovers are biampable... gain walkthrough (http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/dhuston/gains.html), if you want it...

Regarding tuning, I've always wondered if the car should be on/engine running for 14 volts?

[neomagus00]

for setting your maximum gain, that's probably a good idea, yes... for actual tuning, adjusting eq and such, as well as adjusting gains downward from maximum to match the others, the car should be off to get the lowest noise floor possible... i'll have to make sure to add that to the walkthrough...

[JawKnee]

Any more input regarding the crossover settings on the amp? :D

[ND13]

I'm running my MMC6500s with a PG R4.0:2 that has 125 wpc and it does a more than adequate job. It does take about 70 hours or so to properly burn the tweeters in. They tend to be bright at first, then mellow out with burn-in. Other than a few esoteric brands(read $1k up) of components, the only sub $1k components that I've had experience with that can top the MMC6500s for overall performance are the SR6500s. With the SRs you step into another realm.

The Xenon amp is a step above my PG amp, so you should be just fine. Just be careful and tune it correctly. :)

[MacLeod]

Noel - youre running yours straight wired tho right? JawKnee is wanting to bi-amp them which would be 100 to each tweeter and 100 to each mid. Thats too much.

Plus, the Xenon amps are quite underrated as they are excellent competition level amps and I guarantee you that 100x4 is easily 130x4 or more so youre talking 260 watts to 120 watt speakers. Im not saying theyll instantly fry just that its going to be way too easy to overload them with that much power. For what its worth, Im still of the opinion you should straight wire them babies.

Also, its not so much the tweeter breaking in as it is the mid. The MM6's were like this too. Had no midbass and were quite thin for the first month then started fleshing out nicely and within 3 months were great! Its that lack of midbass and depth from the newborn mids that make em seem too bright.

[JawKnee]

MacLeod,

I have always been a little worried if my amp would be too powerful to bi-amp these components. Ultimately, I'll try configuring them each way for now.

My question, what differs between bi-amping the MMC6500s with my Xenon 100.4 vs. the Polk Audio C400.4? Both are rated at 4x100 I believe and I'm sure the C400.4 like the Xenon 100.4, will actually deliver more than 100 watts.

I ask because the manual for the MMC6500s mentions bi-amping with the C400.4 so that makes me feel a little safer in bi-amping with my Xenon. However, I will admit that 200 plus watts to these components does indeed sound "too much".

Manual for MMC6500s: http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/manuals/car/MOMOSystems_Manual_5250_6500.pdf

Maybe I'll wire them straight and bridge the remaining 2 channels and power a 10" sub or an 8" sub :D. It's only money right?

[audiobliss]

Yes, you could use the crossovers and then bridge the rear two channels for a sub. That'd be a cost-effective way of amping fronts and powering a sub.

However, don't be afraid of bi-amping the MMC6500s. In my opinion, you should try it. Like you point out, Polk recommends bi-amping with the C400.4, so it can't be too different. There is most definitely less margin for error and a better chance of smoking your speakers with bi-amping, but as long as you set the gains correctly and use common sense when you're turning up that volume knob, you should be just fine.

And then, since it's only money, you could buy a separate Class D amp for you sub! :D

[JawKnee]

Yes, you could use the crossovers and then bridge the rear two channels for a sub. That'd be a cost-effective way of amping fronts and powering a sub.

However, don't be afraid of bi-amping the MMC6500s. In my opinion, you should try it. Like you point out, Polk recommends bi-amping with the C400.4, so it can't be too different. There is most definitely less margin for error and a better chance of smoking your speakers with bi-amping, but as long as you set the gains correctly and use common sense when you're turning up that volume knob, you should be just fine.

And then, since it's only money, you could buy a separate Class D amp for you sub! :D

I will definitely try bi-amping first. But back to my original question, how should I set the amp's crossovers if at all? :)

[neomagus00]

if you're running through the provided passive xovers, leave the amp's off, and you can control the highpass (60, 80, 100 Hz, whatever) from the HU...

[audiobliss]

What HU are you using? You might have already said, but if so, I missed it.

[MacLeod]

The difference between the Polk amp and the PG amp is the Polk amp makes a little shy of 90 per channel where the PG puts out 130+. Those extra 40 watts are whats worrying me. If you were using a 50x4 Id absolutely say to bi-amp.

The only real benefit of bi-amping is the extra flexibility in tuning the tweeters output, thats about it. You can still get excellent SQ from straight wiring.

As for crossover points, I would skip the amps x-overs and use the passive Momo x-overs. That way youd know theyre set to the proper frequency. Also those x-overs have a tweeter protection link in there so it will pop before your tweeters do, hopefully.

[audiobliss]

bi-amp...:D

Besides the flexibility....you can say you're bi-amping! :D

[MacLeod]

Yeah and hopefully that will be cool enough that you wont be bothered by those smoking pieces of melted plastic where your tweeters used to be.

[audiobliss]

...that's why I mentioned gains and commone sense...;)

But I must say, when the pros speak, heed what they say. But I still think you should at least experiment with bi-amping.

[JawKnee]

Audiobliss, I am using the stock HU :gasp

So does the supplied passive crossovers of the MMC6500s result in the mid running in full range?

[ND13]

Noel - youre running yours straight wired tho right? JawKnee is wanting to bi-amp them which would be 100 to each tweeter and 100 to each mid. Thats too much.

Plus, the Xenon amps are quite underrated as they are excellent competition level amps and I guarantee you that 100x4 is easily 130x4 or more so youre talking 260 watts to 120 watt speakers. Im not saying theyll instantly fry just that its going to be way too easy to overload them with that much power. For what its worth, Im still of the opinion you should straight wire them babies.

Also, its not so much the tweeter breaking in as it is the mid. The MM6's were like this too. Had no midbass and were quite thin for the first month then started fleshing out nicely and within 3 months were great! Its that lack of midbass and depth from the newborn mids that make em seem too bright.


That's why I said to tune it correctly. Who says the gains have to be at 100%??? But I do agree that he probably won't get that much benefit from bi-amping them. It is worth a try though, if just for shits and grins.

[cam5860]

What kind of question is that WILL I BE HAPPY WITH THE MMC6500. People just don't realize how good polkmomo speakers sound. I tell you what you go put any component set you want in for 300 bucks or less and then you put the mmc6500 in and hear the difference. You will say man I didn't realize what i was missing out on. I never new speakers could sound this good.

[JawKnee]

What kind of question is that WILL I BE HAPPY WITH THE MMC6500. People just don't realize how good polkmomo speakers sound. I tell you what you go put any component set you want in for 300 bucks or less and then you put the mmc6500 in and hear the difference. You will say man I didn't realize what i was missing out on. I never new speakers could sound this good.

Hmm... I think my question was fine, especially when I stated what I was looking for in my original post. I'm sure the Polk Audio Momo speakers will be awesome as I already have them and I'm anxiously awaiting on completing the installation this weekend. In any event, I asked, "Will I be happy..." because I was trying to see if the MMC6500s would provide me some extra "punch/oomph/bass" over my stock components found in my 2005 S2000. :)

[JawKnee]

Yet another question, perhaps a "strange" one.

Does the length of the speaker wire from amp to crossover and crossover to the speakers have to be the exact same on both sides? I never thought about this before, but will mismatching lengths introduce any "timing" issues?

And thanks for answering my question regarding the amp's crossover settings. I assumed bypassing them and feeding an unprocessed signal to the passive crossovers would be best. I'll probably experiment anyways.

[neomagus00]

no, you could have a mile of wire on one side and eight feet on the other and it wouldn't matter - the signal travels at pretty close to the speed of light :p... besides, you'll be much too busy dealing with the massive pathlength difference to worry about much else, timing-wise :)

and using the passive xovers results in the mid being lowpassed and the tweet being highpassed...

[ND13]

Yet another question, perhaps a "strange" one.

Does the length of the speaker wire from amp to crossover and crossover to the speakers have to be the exact same on both sides? I never thought about this before, but will mismatching lengths introduce any "timing" issues?

And thanks for answering my question regarding the amp's crossover settings. I assumed bypassing them and feeding an unprocessed signal to the passive crossovers would be best. I'll probably experiment anyways.

It's always a good idea to make them as equal as you can. With that said, any timing differences would be negligible and in no way audible to human ears, unless we're talking about runs of wire in the hundreds of miles.


Edit- I see Neo answered the question while I was distracted at work :) .

[JawKnee]

Thanks guys! Hopefully I can find some time this weekend in between other projects at home to finish my car audio project. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted :)

[MacLeod]

Agreed, you could have one wire 50 feet longer than the other and it wouldnt matter.

Light travels at 186,000 a second (!) which means it would take about a zillionth of a nano second for the signal to travel the extra 4 feet. Hell, even if you could hear a delay that small the speakers wouldnt even be able to produce it!


That's why I said to tune it correctly. Who says the gains have to be at 100%???

Thats true bro but even with the gains at zero, a 500 watt amp would still shred a 100 watt speaker. Hell, Im running about 150 to each of my SR's and my gains are set almost on the floor and on some recordings (Pink Floyd "Hey You") they still can bottom out! Having enough power is important but having too much power kills speakers.