Why own different amps when they all sound the same???WHAT ABOUT WIRE?

[mantis]

Tell me boys, I know most of you have different amps. But why would you? They all sound the same.

There should be Brand X and everyone should buy it and power everything with it. There is no difference.Who the hell cares what name is on it if it will not sound better or worse. Hell not even different.

And wire, speaker wire, any wire, as long as you have the proper gauge , it will all sound exactly the same. Larger then needed wire is just a waste of money period. Under 25 feet for your mains , 16 guage is all thats needed. Don't even be bi wiring, your now the biggest butthole of them all. You know double butt effed yourself.

King Butthole

[ohskigod]

wish my experience was the same, I would same some serious money.

[beardog03]

hehe...he said butt effed..!!

Is there actually a reason or point to this thread..?

Inquiring buttholes whanna know..!!

:D

[ND13]

I just like to "CLAIM" I can hear a difference so I can fit in with the rest of you fellas :rolleyes:

Oh and I like to waste my hard earned cash on frivolous purchases, too.

[PolknPepsi]

Well.....
I could tell a difference when changing from lampcord to monster 12 gauge wire. Not too sure about the amp thing I'm still on my first one since just recently I became seriously interested in audio.

[mantis]

If you wire your actual lamp with monstercable, would the light be brighter? Would it turn on smother?

[beardog03]

ya know, now that ya mention it...my HCA-3500 sounds just like my HCA-2205a

and all 4 of my Rotel 980`s sound the same too..

maybe you`ve got somethin here..!!

[ND13]

Are you just bored Dan or are you just wanting to get a "DEBATE" started with BDT??? :D ;)

[faster100]

with all the ruckuss(sp) today, its just a troll thread to start more debate and anger.. typical club polk getting back in gear :rolleyes:

[PolknPepsi]

............I'm not sure Dan, let's ask the Bunny.

[gidrah]

Slip off your meds again bug man?

[TroyD]

Yeah Dan, we get it. You are the pro. Your opinion is more relavant and informed than anyone else's.

Guess Dan needs to puff up for some reason. Maybe another midlife crisis and needs to feel more 'eggresive'.

BDT

[ohskigod]

hmmm, it seems david hasselhoff has something to say

[MacLeod]

This would be cool if somebody had actually said all amps sound the same.

This explains a lot tho, Dan can read statements that were never made which explains how he can hear the differences in amps and cables when there arent any! :D :p

[heiney9]

with all the ruckuss(sp) today, its just a troll thread to start more debate and anger.. typical club polk getting back in gear :rolleyes:

Magic Eight Ball says.....more than likely :D

H9

[MacLeod]

Ah, whats wrong with some good strong debate? Its not much fun when everybody agrees. As long as it remains civil, a good intellectual exchange is good for the soul.

[Dennis Gardner]

Forum troll...............

[dkg999]

I have to say he is absolutely correct! All my amps and wire sound exactly the same. I put my ear right next to each of my amps, and then slid my ear along each of my different speaker cables end-to-end, and except for a little carpet burn, everyone of them sounds exactly the same :eek: In fact, I put my ear up to my couch, and it sounded just like my amps! I'm going next door to see if the neighbors Bose system sounds just like my stuff :D

[heiney9]

I have to say he is absolutely correct! All my amps and wire sound exactly the same. I put my ear right next to each of my amps, and then slid my ear along each of my different speaker cables end-to-end, and except for a little carpet burn, everyone of them sounds exactly the same :eek: In fact, I put my ear up to my couch, and it sounded just like my amps! I'm going next door to see if the neighbors Bose system sounds just like my stuff :D

LMAO.....I can see you now cheeks smoking and eveything. If your in Belvidere tonight just go out in the rain to sooth those carpet burns. :p

H9

[dkg999]

H9 - yep! Just hanging out in Belvidere watching the new Star Wars DVD with the kids! The rain has backed off a little over here. I hit the usual flea markets and shops in Rockford earlier today and couldn't find any new toys. Over at Video Labs on Alpine they had a nice PS Audio DAC, but they couldn't tell me what chips it had in it and they wanted $500 for it. They also had a real clean Adcom GFA5400 for $350. He has some pretty nice restored Advents for reasonable prices if you are looking for those. Doug.

[heiney9]

H9 - yep! Just hanging out in Belvidere watching the new Star Wars DVD with the kids! The rain has backed off a little over here. I hit the usual flea markets and shops in Rockford earlier today and couldn't find any new toys. Over at Video Labs on Alpine they had a nice PS Audio DAC, but they couldn't tell me what chips it had in it and they wanted $500 for it. They also had a real clean Adcom GFA5400 for $350. He has some pretty nice restored Advents for reasonable prices if you are looking for those. Doug.

On a completely diff subject (maybe we sould take this to PM) but how is that guy at Video lab? I've never gotten too much out of him as far as conversation and I'm thinking of having my current Adcom "freshened" up a bit. He just doesn't have the kind of personality that makes me feel comfortable having him work on my stuff. I know he can makes things "go" but I'd feel more comfortable if I knew he had some knowledge about how to improve in a few area's. Any expericences with him? We need to get together and shoot the sh*t sometime soon.

Brock

[audiobliss]

I have to say he is absolutely correct! All my amps and wire sound exactly the same. I put my ear right next to each of my amps, and then slid my ear along each of my different speaker cables end-to-end, and except for a little carpet burn, everyone of them sounds exactly the same :eek: In fact, I put my ear up to my couch, and it sounded just like my amps! I'm going next door to see if the neighbors Bose system sounds just like my stuff :D

ROFLMREO!!!! That's great!!

[McLoki]

Tell me boys, I know most of you have different amps. But why would you? They all sound the same.
Personally, I am compensating for something... aren't you???

Michael

[PolkThug]

:confused:

[halo]

Dan do you remember this?????????? LINK (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27822&highlight=dynaudio)

Didn't you say something about how great the Rotel's sound with Dynaudio as compared to other brands? Isn't that why you chose Rotel? WTF? :confused:

BTW - Hear a difference I do between the Rotel that died on me and the Parasound that replaced it. Just my $0.02

[organ]

This thread is going to turn sour. Let's just put it this way: If all amps/wires/speakers/etc sounds the same, none of us would bother joining Club Polk.

Maurice

[mantis]

I believe this thead is a good example of what you will find when trying to decide on wire. read it and you might get where I'm coming from.

I also feel the comments made on the rich are where they are coming from. It's funny as I have good wire and I'm very far from being rich.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=599714
This one is the king of all wire theads. Very different but close to the same as ones that go down in here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=424550

[PolknPepsi]

I read most of both links and it looks like some guys do and some guys don't think cables make a difference. Funny thing.....cables must be the most controversial topic in audio.

[W WALDECKER]

I read most of both links and it looks like some guys do and some guys don't think cables make a difference. Funny thing.....cables must be the most controversial topic in audio.everything makes a difference if it is with your own ears listening to your own system. it only matters if you can hear a positive change for the better in your system.thanks....WCW III

[TroyD]

Who gives a rats ass about the avs forums and what does it have to do with trying to start a pissing contest here?

I really think Dan's lost it.

BDBania

[madmax]

As the owner of 18+ amplifiers at the same time I can seriously say that when I swap them around they all have their pluses and minuses. Some have great midrange, some control woofers very well, some have accented bass, some are harsh on the high end, some can give you goosebumps while others can make you cry. Dan, you've lost it man. :)
madmax

[beardog03]

hey I saw Thugy over there..!! :D

you go brother...I`m with ya..!!

:D

say what ya want, but my MIT S1`s make a huge difference over my AQ King Cobra`s...
and my AQ type 4 speaker cable is more focused than my Monster XP...

but I`m kinda freakish too..!!

[Dennis Gardner]

Who gives a rats ass about the avs forums and what does it have to do with trying to start a pissing contest here?

I really think Dan's lost it.

BDBania

From the AVS thread, post #254:

"I'm in the Wire makes alot of difference camp."

mantis

[ND13]

Mantis seems to either be trying to just stir the pot by being sarcastic or he's being a hipocrite and changing his views on cable all together. I do remember him being a proponent of good cables and wires and not that long ago, either.

[W WALDECKER]

I just like to "CLAIM" I can hear a difference so I can fit in with the rest of you fellas :rolleyes:

Oh and I like to waste my hard earned cash on frivolous purchases, too.now i dont feel so all alone in the pathetic little audio HELL that i have created for myself!

[faster100]

well when ya can get cables/gear at cost its easy to try alot of different high dollar cables. :D

[mantis]

well when ya can get cables/gear at cost its easy to try alot of different high dollar cables. :D
I never said anything about where or how I get my cables. Actually I never will.

Over the years I have been trying alot of different kinds of wire. With Audioquest coming in a few weeks, I've been seriously trying to learn about what they do. The DBS system is the strangest thing so far. Transparent and MIT use the network bricks but batteries??? Ok I'll try to except it. From what I have heard from other who actually listened said it makes a difference for the better. It clears up the sound like you moved up in cable grade. Ok I have not experienced this myself yet but I was puzzled on this. I have read all about it and DBS well makes sense on paper. I'm not sold on it but ok it is what it is. Are cable companies out of Ideas on how to make a good quality conductor? Have I been going around and round in circles testing wire when in the end it doesn't makes enough differnce to justify the cost? Man You can spend alot of money on cables. I know I have over the years.

I'm really intrested in trying out some Audioquest.

This thead may have come across completely wrong. It's my fault as I haven't been in the greatest of moods. My bad allday.

The amp thing just set me off when I read about how all amps sound the same. Sometimes I wonder . Sometimes it's black and white. I really don't think things sound the same at all. Actually I always find something different in most products. I have however found things sounding close but not the same.
I also thing the point about amps is wrong. If 2 amps are equal in many way, ok I can see at certain times they could sound almost the same, but no one listens at the same volume all the time with the same type of dynamics. 2 many factors during the listening.

Dan

[mantis]

O I forgot to mention Audioquest believes in the sold core thing as well.

Dan

[MacLeod]

The amp thing just set me off when I read about how all amps sound the same. Sometimes I wonder . Sometimes it's black and white. I really don't think things sound the same at all. Actually I always find something different in most products. I have however found things sounding close but not the same.
I also thing the point about amps is wrong. If 2 amps are equal in many way, ok I can see at certain times they could sound almost the same, but no one listens at the same volume all the time with the same type of dynamics. 2 many factors during the listening.

Dan


Dan, I love ya man but you dont seem to get me. Nobody has ever said that all amps sound the same. Only that if compared equally the differences will be inaudible.

The reason this debate started was not to prove that a $200 amp is just as good as a $2000 amp but rather to refute the claims that some amps have "warmer highs and tigher midbass but have a more narrow stage" while others are "brigher with thinner highs but have a deep stage with precise imaging". These are the characteristics amps dont have and all the ABX testing was designed, and has, proven just that. Amps are supposed to be transparant and if you look at their frequency response its ruler flat at 0 db.

[ND13]

The reason this debate started was not to prove that a $200 amp is just as good as a $2000 amp but rather to refute the claims that some amps have "warmer highs and tigher midbass but have a more narrow stage" while others are "brigher with thinner highs but have a deep stage with precise imaging". These are the characteristics amps dont have and all the ABX testing was designed, and has, proven just that. Amps are supposed to be transparant and if you look at their frequency response its ruler flat at 0 db.

Those characteristics are preamp characteristics.

[amulford]

But Grasshopper, if the wire walks the path of enlightenment, should not the amp light the way???

[MacLeod]

Those characteristics are preamp characteristics.


So its not longer the amps that are warmer or tighter or broader than others, its now the pre-amps?

I cant keep up with you guys. :confused:

[ND13]

Well Mac, you need to come on up to Indy and I'll prove it to you with three differerent pres. They all have different soundstaging, imaging, depth, and tonal signatures. Have you ever owned anything besides a receiver? And I never said those characteristics were from my amps. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

[MacLeod]

Nah, I cant keep up.

So what happens if you take an amp with warm midbass and clean midrange running from a preamp with bright and thin highs hooked together with cables with a wide soundstage and smooth highs but poor imaging, running off of a source unit with a deep but narrow stage with deep bass, running thru speaker wires with thin bass but clean and smooth highs? Oh and dont forget the power cable running to the wall socket, Im sure that can brighten up the treble if you need it to. But it wouldnt matter becaue it would all change as soon as the tubes burn in.

Boy, am I making friends or what?! :D

[heiney9]

Nah, I cant keep up.

So what happens if you take an amp with warm midbass and clean midrange running from a preamp with bright and thin highs hooked together with cables with a wide soundstage and smooth highs but poor imaging, running off of a source unit with a deep but narrow stage with deep bass, running thru speaker wires with thin bass but clean and smooth highs? Oh and dont forget the power cable running to the wall socket, Im sure that can brighten up the treble if you need it to. But it wouldnt matter becaue it would all change as soon as the tubes burn in.

Boy, am I making friends or what?! :D

In audio as well as many other things it's about SYNERGY. So yes your senario is plausible and changing out/switching combinations of amps/pre/cd player/DAC's/source material/speakers/cables/power conditioners will alter the sound (each and every seperate piece). Some pieces will work very well together, others won't. And all pieces have to work well together to get WHATEVER DESIRED sound YOU are looking for. If you haven't experimented with these things in different combo's then you really can't speak about it other than to make an educated guess (which BTW is incorrect). :D

H9

P.s. The only amps that sound exactly the same are a two amps of the same kind.

[W WALDECKER]

Those characteristics are preamp characteristics.amplifiers have thier own sonic signatures as well, and in my own experience can make as large an impact on the overall sound as a preamplifier does.thanks....WCW III

[ND13]

The reason this debate started was not to prove that a $200 amp is just as good as a $2000 amp but rather to refute the claims that some amps have "warmer highs and tigher midbass but have a more narrow stage" while others are "brigher with thinner highs but have a deep stage with precise imaging". These are the characteristics amps dont have and all the ABX testing was designed, and has, proven just that. Amps are supposed to be transparant and if you look at their frequency response its ruler flat at 0 db.

William, I was adressing the soundstage and imaging aspects of this quote, not the sonic signature. My amps do have their own sonic signatures, though subtle, but I haven't been able to tell the difference between imaging and soundstage of the three. I can however state, beyond a doubt, that my pres have differences in those characteristics and it's quite obvious.

What I'm about to post is not intended by any means to be degrading, so please don't blow it out of proportion, because I'm far from an audio snob.

When I was using a receiver, I was in the other camp as well. It DOES take a higher resolution system to notice the differences in components, wires, cables and such. Unless your talking about multi-thousand dollar receivers, I doubt very seriously that you're going to hear the differences, whether subtle or dramatic. I know that I couldn't when I was running a receiver. But I started noticing the dramatic differences as I started upgrading and with the gear I'm currently using the subtle differences are becoming more and more apparent as well. Sometimes I wish I couldn't hear the differences, because I would have more money in my wallet, for sure. Then I kick back and get my listen on and think that I'm almost in audio nirvana and when I really look at the total amount that I have in my main rig, I laugh, because I only have about a third of what the stuff retailed for, when new, in it and for the most part, one wouldn't be able to distinguish them from new anyways :)

[MacLeod]

So we're back to the "you have to have a $5000 amp with $2000 cables otherwise you wont hear a difference and even then its very subtle" argument? If thats the case Ill keep my $200 amp!

End the end it all falls back to Richard Clark and his little $10,000 amp challenge. All you have to do is email him and set up the test. You can even bring your own amps to test and if you can choose correctly you win $10,000. If there are such obvious differences between amps then why has nobody EVER won this challenge in the 15+ years its been going?

[beardog03]

to me my Parasound amp sound "warmer" than my Rotels..

I don`t care what it looks like on paper, or what someone else say`s..

I can hear a difference..

That`s my story , and I`m stickin to it.. :cool:

I also hear a big difference between my MIT I/C`s , and my AQ King Cobra`s..

BIG difference..

Just like tubes..
You can get a matched pair to sound, and perform as close to each other as possible..

but tubes, even from the same factory, in the same batch, all have a slightly different sound..

nothing is built completely identical to another...there are slight, and subtle differences

IMHO ...of course

but I`m also a sick freak, so pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...carry on gents.. :D

[McLoki]

End the end it all falls back to Richard Clark and his little $10,000 amp challenge. All you have to do is email him and set up the test. You can even bring your own amps to test and if you can choose correctly you win $10,000. If there are such obvious differences between amps then why has nobody EVER won this challenge in the 15+ years its been going?
I said I wouldn't get back in this debate so I just want to point out this odd "makes you go hmmmmm?" type question.

For 10 grand you would think someone would have taken the test and just guessed right. Even if you are comparing between 4 amps you have a 25% chance of winning 10 grand with no money put up on your part.

Why has no one won this? is it real? For 10 grand even if they sounded identical you would think that someone would be able to guess correctly eventually let alone in 15 years. I mean people win the lottery every day with astronomical odds against them.

Was just curious - whether amps sound the same or not, just wondering about the contest... ;) ;)

Michael

[dorokusai]

So we're back to the "you have to have a $5000 amp with $2000 cables otherwise you wont hear a difference and even then its very subtle" argument? If thats the case Ill keep my $200 amp!

End the end it all falls back to Richard Clark and his little $10,000 amp challenge. All you have to do is email him and set up the test. You can even bring your own amps to test and if you can choose correctly you win $10,000. If there are such obvious differences between amps then why has nobody EVER won this challenge in the 15+ years its been going?

If you read his terms and conditions, you'll see why....it's a worthless challenge.

[mantis]

Basically it really comes down to if you can hear a difference , thats really all that matters. We can sit here and debate both sides and never come to verdict. This guy Richard Clark has laid down a challenge but no one can prove him wrong. With his standards , who really knows. I have heard plenty of differences changing out amps and thats not made up. As alot of you , you guys also heard differences when using different amps. Turn up the volume and hear even more differnces.

Use speakers that are a challenge to drive, and hear more differences.

But on a lighter note, we got in Audioquest. So the Quest begins.

Dan

[beardog03]

let us know what you think about the battery powered ones..

I have been curious about those for a long time now..

[ND13]

Sorry but I don't have anything close to a $5000 amp or $2000 cables :rolleyes: . I just have some decent gear. I do have a $2800 preamp, but again I paid nowhere near that for it. Hell for that matter, I don't think I have $5000 in my rig, total. I did buy the majority of it used, though.

[sickicw]

Well looking at it from a technical and business point of view and it is easy to see why some amps are created differently, can perform differently, and sound differently. All you have to do is compare the amp classes, and specs of each amp (might be better to do actually testing than take the manufactured word for it), the technology used (lots of which is patented) and then figure in supply and demand on how they sound in different systems, and then….well there you have it. Also think about the fact that it takes quite a bit more resources to make amp 1:

200 watts at 8 ohms, 400 watts at 4 ohms, 800 watts at 2 ohms, 1600 watts at 1 ohm and 50 % efficient

Than amp 2:

200 watts at 8 ohms, 300 watts at 4 ohms, unstable under 4 ohms and 25 % efficient.

anyhoo, that just some of my thoughts on the subject.

[mantis]

I unboxed a pair of Type 4's today and I just wanted to take em home and try em out. There basically bottom of the line for premade wires but there built quality is excellent. I like the feel of solid core wire. Even there Bananas are nice. I like it.

I'm looking to listen to the DBS cables as well. I will report all my findings good or bad. It's cool watching them go up on the wall.

Dan

[Josh-S]

What is all this crap? :confused: bla bla this.. bla bla that.. Hey, I shaved my pubes! :D Nice and smoth...

[W WALDECKER]

What is all this crap? :confused: bla bla this.. bla bla that.. Hey, I shaved my pubes! :D Nice and smoth...? :rolleyes:

[Josh-S]

Just adding to "the crap" pile ;)

Edit: Oh, I see the second page here actualy has some usefull posts :( Never the less these debates never lead anywhere. I bought a nice set of Dyton premade wires for my setup. Why? Because they look good! They are heavy, and they will survive a vacume atack! :D No tto mention they are O2 free and sheilded. So, I'm shure I'll notice a diferance over time.

[MacLeod]

I said I wouldn't get back in this debate so I just want to point out this odd "makes you go hmmmmm?" type question.

For 10 grand you would think someone would have taken the test and just guessed right. Even if you are comparing between 4 amps you have a 25% chance of winning 10 grand with no money put up on your part.

Why has no one won this? is it real? For 10 grand even if they sounded identical you would think that someone would be able to guess correctly eventually let alone in 15 years. I mean people win the lottery every day with astronomical odds against them.

Was just curious - whether amps sound the same or not, just wondering about the contest... ;) ;)

Michael


Its not a single guess. To eliminate the element of chance you have to get 12 out of 12 correct.

The way he does it is you take 2 amps, you pick the amps, they are level matched to within .05 db and thats it. You control everything. The switching between the 2, the track selection, everything. Say youre using a Crossfire and a Kicker amp. You pick the amp youre going to identify, say the Kicker. Now you listen to whatever music you choose for however long you chose and can switch back and forth as many times as you like and take as long as you like. Then you pick the one you think is the Kicker. Thats 1 round. Then, either the amps are reversed or theyre not and you go again. You get 12 out of 12 and you win $10,000.

The reason it calls for 12 out of 12 is that just by flipping a coin youll likely get 6 out of 12. Plus, if there are such obvious differences you should be able to pick correctly 12 out of 12 times all day. RC's has even lowered it to 10 out of 12 on a few occasions and still NOBODY has ever one it.

There is nothing wrong with his conditions or the test itself. It favors the testee in every way other than he cant see which amp is which. The testee controls the volume, the switching, the music choice, the track control, he can take as much time as he likes, he can listen to the same 10 second piece of music looped over and over if he likes.

The only rules are: 1)they have to be level matched (it would be pretty easy to pick out the 500 watt amp from the 100 watt amp. 2) You cant see which amp is which (otherwise it wouldnt be a double blind test. 3) All EQ's and processors have to be bypassed (because we're not comparing EQ's, we're comparing amps).

There is no trick.

[W WALDECKER]

Just adding to "the crap" pile ;)

Edit: Oh, I see the second page here actualy has some usefull posts :( Never the less these debates never lead anywhere. I bought a nice set of Dyton premade wires for my setup. Why? Because they look good! They are heavy, and they will survive a vacume atack! :D No tto mention they are O2 free and sheilded. So, I'm shure I'll notice a diferance over time.these debates are important and provoke thought and if you stick around and pay very close attention you may learn something. thanks....WCW III

[Josh-S]

But isnt it the same debate over and over? While I'm up for learning new things nothings changed.

[W WALDECKER]

But isnt it the same debate over and over? While I'm up for learning new things nothings changed.thats where the pay very close attention part comes in!

[MacLeod]

these debates are important and provoke thought and if you stick around and pay very close attention you may learn something. thanks....WCW III

Bingo!

This is a discussion forum and it wouldnt be much good if all we did was sit around and agree with each other.

This isnt a fight or anything, its an intellectual exchange within the arena of ideas and there is nothing wrong with it and if you dont care for this subject you dont have to participate. Some debates I dont care for so I stay out of them, others I do believe in, such as this, so I get involved.

[LuSh]

I'm going to roll the dice and say nobody has taken the challenge of Richard Clark because nobody has heard of him, except say a few people that think all amps sound the same, digital is digital, cable's and speakers are useless and generally think the world is out to get them. And if not the world, certainly the government.

What is most irritating to me, is that I've accepted my financial disposition and have come to terms with the fact I can't hear the best or know the best because the industry has 1. Been killed by Home Theatre 2. was destroyed by mid-fi products in the 1980's. It is however unfortnuate for some to realize this, and they get their back up against a wall if people ask questions about what they've used, as if its a personal attack on their wealth. It isn't. But to fully understand things, and have solid foundation it might help if these yahoos actually had admitted to testing higher end gear and still explained in detail how they didn't hear changes. Everytime I run into these "flat-earthers" in real life, I always ask..."have you at least listened" this is usually followed by a quick, "I dont have to, its science" response. I have never run into somebody that has tried higher end gear that hasn't admitted there was at least a difference. Nobody I know of that has heard a SimAudio, Classe, YBA, Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, Plinius has been able to look me in the eye and suggest there was NO DIFFERENCE. The people that dispute it, have heard of these companies but might have listened to a 2min demo, but hasn't spent any time, they've already written it off.

The same can be said for the cable crowd. People I talk to in real life say to me, cables are a waste of money...I tried some high end monster (entry level stuff even for monster) on my JVC and it made no difference. When I ask if they've tired better stuff, an interconnect in the $300-$500 range they look at me crazy. I also suggest trying it on a higher end amp. What sticks out is that $300-$500 in their head, they can't get their head around a cable that costs more then their entire receiver. They dig for information that supports their claim that cables make no difference before they go out and hear it for themselves, that's because it's easier then creating self doubt and openning up their wallets to something they really can't afford. They don't listen because they might hear a difference, and that would support the ownership of expensive stuff that has already killed a big chunk of their enjoyment.

It's a natural defense mechanism. If I don't listen it can't be better, if its not better I won't have to buy it. If I dont buy it I can refute claims via webpages. The world is out to get me and my hard earned money.

Audio has inflated like no other hobby, it sucks. If you only knew what I really wanted to get my hands on. An Elrod EPS-3 signiture power cable $2500 vs an Electraglide Ephiany reference $6000 hooked up to Tenor mono blocks and Kharma speakers. I can't do this, because I'm not wealthy enough. But I dont resent people that are, althought I use too. Instead I have fun reading and learning. Could I hear the difference between my Moray James powercord $700 vs a Elrod $2500? I don't think so, an online buddy thinks so because the differences were striking in his system. He also uses an $18,000 Tube amp from Zanden, and a $30,000 analogue setup from SpJ. At one point he was using $6000 interconnects from Siltech. He isn't just rich and stupid. He has enough dough to really get his hands dirty yet still values great bang for the buck, he currently owns $300 interconnects and was using a $2.5 preamp...he just continues to tweak and toy and have fun, all while enjoying what brought him here in the first place...his music. Remeber MOST of the people that have this kinda money invested in there equipment also have at least or two times as much invested in software. These aren't yuppies that spend because its "Highend" they go through what we go through just at a much higher price point.

So for the non cable believers, its ok...but at least give it a shot. Don't hate, just participate.

[MacLeod]

Plenty of people have taken the challenge, just that nobody has ever won it. Its been around over a decade.

[ND13]

Beautifully written , Lush.

[dorokusai]

Plenty of people have taken the challenge, just that nobody has ever won it.

Please feel free to name the people and manufacturers.

It's a chump bet with no merit, as in nothing useful aside from a power check.

[mantis]

Lush,
that was one of the best ways to describe the entire thing. It's basically dead on.

I 2 feel that most people get offended and think they can't afford it so they feel the need to bash it. I can't afford exactly what i would like to have but don't bash it cause I can't have it.

this thead was started for this exact same reason. I wanted to bring out everyones opnion on this matter. Due to the fact I started this , I got bashed. O well. At least it's going in a different direction. A good one at that,

Dan

[heiney9]

Its not a single guess. To eliminate the element of chance you have to get 12 out of 12 correct.

The way he does it is you take 2 amps, you pick the amps, they are level matched to within .05 db and thats it. You control everything. The switching between the 2, the track selection, everything. Say youre using a Crossfire and a Kicker amp. You pick the amp youre going to identify, say the Kicker. Now you listen to whatever music you choose for however long you chose and can switch back and forth as many times as you like and take as long as you like. Then you pick the one you think is the Kicker. Thats 1 round. Then, either the amps are reversed or theyre not and you go again. You get 12 out of 12 and you win $10,000.

The reason it calls for 12 out of 12 is that just by flipping a coin youll likely get 6 out of 12. Plus, if there are such obvious differences you should be able to pick correctly 12 out of 12 times all day. RC's has even lowered it to 10 out of 12 on a few occasions and still NOBODY has ever one it.

There is nothing wrong with his conditions or the test itself. It favors the testee in every way other than he cant see which amp is which. The testee controls the volume, the switching, the music choice, the track control, he can take as much time as he likes, he can listen to the same 10 second piece of music looped over and over if he likes.

The only rules are: 1)they have to be level matched (it would be pretty easy to pick out the 500 watt amp from the 100 watt amp. 2) You cant see which amp is which (otherwise it wouldnt be a double blind test. 3) All EQ's and processors have to be bypassed (because we're not comparing EQ's, we're comparing amps).

There is no trick.

Blah, Blah, Blah...with respect of course. I've seen pics of you MacLeod, you could squish me like an ant. :D :p

The only thing that matters to me is MY SYSTEM. I'm familiar with it and it's characteristics (it's my base-line). I can tell a difference in every component and most cables I swap in/out (some cables sound very similiar). Don't ask me to listen to an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar environment and expect to pick up on the subtle differences. It can't be done, that's why his challenge is a bit flawed, IMO. There HAS to be a base line or the experiment is flawed.

H9

P.s. I'm done with this discussion as this is the 7th time I've participated in this type of thread. My POV is not going to change and I suspect that unless MacLeod has an ephiphany his isn't going to change either.

[dorokusai]

It's a worthless challenge. I've read this idea to death in other forums over the years, do we need to add this one to the list?

[madmax]

So we're back to the "you have to have a $5000 amp with $2000 cables otherwise you wont hear a difference and even then its very subtle" argument? If thats the case Ill keep my $200 amp!


One thing to keep in mind is that until you experience better stuff for yourself you will not understand. I've had $200 amps. I've also had $2500 amps and have heard $8K amps. There is significant difference. Probably a power difference maybe? No. Definite quality differences.

If you will, let me share some differences as I've heard them. A lesser quality amp gives you decent dynamics which is about all you listen for at that level. They overshadow much of the detail. As you move up you start noticing new sounds. At this point you think you have it all. A few moves up and you start hearing the "tones" of the different instruments. Instead of hearing a guitar you are hearing a strat through a fender. Still moving on up you start noticing the strat in the one song has better pickups than the strat that was played in the other song. Also, space between instruments has become apparent. In the next upward move you could swear you are listening to the real thing but your mind really knows better. You are convinced it sounds real but in reality if it were a life and death situation you could easily state whether you were listening to a stereo or a real sound. THIS is where the cables really come into play. The small differences between a stereo and real becomes a huge difference in perception. Getting rid of even a very small clue of "stereo" sound weights very highly in enjoyment.

Then again, a $200 amp sounds pretty good.


Another way to look at it. I have a fast car. 420 hp, will do 12.3 with drag slicks. I know what power and speed is. Then again, my friend used to drive a 10 second car. He knows as I do that I don't really have a clue yet, only a common sense knowledge of what I think a 10 second car would be like.

madmax

[W WALDECKER]

One thing to keep in mind is that until you experience better stuff for yourself you will not understand. I've had $200 amps. I've also had $2500 amps and have heard $8K amps. There is significant difference. Probably a power difference maybe? No. Definite quality differences.

If you will, let me share some differences as I've heard them. A lesser quality amp gives you decent dynamics which is about all you listen for at that level. They overshadow much of the detail. As you move up you start noticing new sounds. At this point you think you have it all. A few moves up and you start hearing the "tones" of the different instruments. Instead of hearing a guitar you are hearing a strat through a fender. Still moving on up you start noticing the strat in the one song has better pickups than the strat that was played in the other song. Also, space between instruments has become apparent. In the next upward move you could swear you are listening to the real thing but your mind really knows better. You are convinced it sounds real but in reality if it were a life and death situation you could easily state whether you were listening to a stereo or a real sound. THIS is where the cables really come into play. The small differences between a stereo and real becomes a huge difference in perception. Getting rid of even a very small clue of "stereo" sound weights very highly in enjoyment.

Then again, a $200 amp sounds pretty good.


Another way to look at it. I have a fast car. 420 hp, will do 12.3 with drag slicks. I know what power and speed is. Then again, my friend used to drive a 10 second car. He knows as I do that I don't really have a clue yet, only a common sense knowledge of what I think a 10 second car would be like.

madmaxYeah madmax,i agree totally with your analogy,i feel that the higher the resolution goes in a system the more you can tell the differences in cables and components.thanks....WCW III

[SCompRacer]

I can relate to the race car anology. I've gone 7.29 @ 196 down the quarter and launched at 2.5G's. I don't get as excited driving a slower car.

Audio wise, after several amps, speaker cables and interconnects, I recently find myself very pleased with my system and don't want to change anything. However, I can't index or qualify it until I hear other systems that sound better, or do not. It's all relative, and until you do experience something, how can you speak about it in absolutes and with conviction?

[PolkThug]

So for the non cable believers, its ok...but at least give it a shot. Don't hate, just participate.

Good words of wisdom for the believers too. :)

[mantis]

madmax,
see I'm not crazy, I just have a funny way of bringing out a good dicussion. Awesome post bro.

Funny you use the car 1/4 thing. I owned a Buick Grand National which I was able to get into the 11.68 @ 117.9 MILES per hr.

But back to the amp thing, yes I know it makes a huge difference.As far as I'm concerned anytime anything can be unlocked in what I'm listening to is huge. I guess it's why I'm so into wire. I love hearing the difference. the little things mean so much.

Back to the car, it's not about the larger turbo I installed to get into the 11's it was about the fuel pump, the Injectors , Boost pressure mods , trans shift kit , custom programmed chip for my car, cold air induction package, upgraded intercooler,M&H racemaster tires, etc made me go that fast....

Dan

[TroyD]

yawn......

[Dennis Gardner]

yawn......

Be careful there BDT, you might be called a senior "member". :D

[MacLeod]

Don't ask me to listen to an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar environment and expect to pick up on the subtle differences. It can't be done, that's why his challenge is a bit flawed, IMO. There HAS to be a base line or the experiment is flawed.



You can bring your own amps and listen to any music you chose.

[gidrah]

MacLeod - Pardon me for asking this, but is your view based on car audio or home audio or both?

[PolkThug]

Funny you use the car 1/4 thing. I owned a Buick Grand National which I was able to get into the 11.68 @ 117.9 MILES per hr.
... Back to the car, it's not about the larger turbo I installed to get into the 11's it was about the fuel pump, the Injectors , Boost pressure mods , trans shift kit , custom programmed chip for my car, cold air induction package, upgraded intercooler,M&H racemaster tires, etc made me go that fast....

Dan

sweet! Got any other cars in the works, or have you given up life in the fast lane?

[PolkThug]

MacLeod - Pardon me for asking this, but is your view based on car audio or home audio or both?

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18590&highlight=Richard+Clark

[gidrah]

This must be why he deposed the concept of cables effecting soundstage and imaging. No matter how much money I put into my truck system, I will still have no semblence of imaging or soundstage and thus cannot base any further debate upon the lack of. I have invested many thousands of dollars and hours into my home stereo in order to achieve the experience that is best for me. The radio in my truck modulates either frequency or amplitude. I'm happy with my priorities.

[madmax]

Oh, car amps... I guess I agree then.
madmax

[MacLeod]

Let me see if Ive got this straight:

There are no differences in cheaper home amps amps and cables and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables. In order to get the warmer bass and deeper soundstage you have to have $2000 home audio amps and $100/ft cables. Right?

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass. Hell Cody (exalted512) swears by the tonal differences in some amps. But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?

[Josh-S]

and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables.

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass.

But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?


Theres a MAJOR diferance in car amps. That is one thing I can coment on. Theres a massive harmonic change when going from one amp to another. most of which is due to the quality of the comps. I have been threw over 2 dozen amps in my times with my cars system (hence where all my money went) If car amps have any silmularities to Home Theater amps then they should vary greatly!

[heiney9]

Let me see if Ive got this straight:

There are no differences in cheaper home amps amps and cables and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables. In order to get the warmer bass and deeper soundstage you have to have $2000 home audio amps and $100/ft cables. Right?

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass. Hell Cody (exalted512) swears by the tonal differences in some amps. But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?

No....you don't have it straight. There are differences in all classes of electronics. To realize some of the more subtle differences YES, you may need a higer resolution system to discern the differences. For me anyways I NEVER said or agreed that you have to spend high $$$ to get soemthing to sound different. Hell, my friend who is not into audio at all like most here replaced his Kenwood AVR with a Denon 3804 a few years ago and heard an immediate difference in sound, and he's using Cerwin Vega speakers which aren't know for their tonal accuracy. Could he hear a diff between a $100 cable and a $500 cable, probably not on his current system.

I've been so far removed from the car audio thing I can't comment other than to say in my days of selling; Alpine and Rockford Fosgate were the best for a long time. And yes, I can/have heard diff in car audio amps.

H9

[madmax]

Let me see if Ive got this straight:

There are no differences in cheaper home amps amps and cables and there are no differences in car audio amps and cables. In order to get the warmer bass and deeper soundstage you have to have $2000 home audio amps and $100/ft cables. Right?

But what about all the golden eared car audio believers? There are quite a few of them that claim for instance that Crossfire amps are very bright sounding and MTX are too dirty and Alpine amps are warm and JL Audio amps have better midbass. Hell Cody (exalted512) swears by the tonal differences in some amps. But these guys must be wrong because you cant hear a differences in car audio components, right?

Well, if you want to argue for the other side (those who do hear the differences) then I guess there is no longer a debate? :D

[madmax]

OOPS,
Sorry, I didn't read close enough. $100/ft cables certainly don't cut it...

Actually, there is a company here in Germantown MD that makes car tube amplifiers. Not just a 12ax7 or two thrown in for looks but honest to God tube amplifiers. I'd be willing to bet you could get a good soundstage and all if you picked the right vehicle with the right speakers. A had a decent soundstage in my last truck with the really old polk Mobile Monitor series speakers.
madmax

[jdhdiggs]

The problem with RC's test is that he states, you need to pick out XYZ amp from each test rather than a test of "This is amp A, now is the next amp the same or different than amp A". The first, even if you here a difference, it is a crap shoot to guess which one is which. In the second, you can tell a difference and that's the question being asked. (As opposed to "Which one is this?")

I have done both in my house with my own equipment with cables and amps. I never passed his style of test, but the other I can pass >95% of the time with amps. As far as cables go, as long as they are properly built, I have never heard any difference or passed any blind tests. Sorry...

[MacLeod]

This Tru (http://www.trutechnology.com/products/copper/c74_t.htm) is the best tube amp on the car audio market. Damn good looking amps too. Run ya about $2500. Tru makes about the best amps in car audio and some of them are the best looking on the market

But the best looking amp of all time is the Human Reign from Soundstream. How would ya like to have these on your rack? ;)

http://www.soundstream.com/sub/IMAGES/products/HUMAN1.GIFhttp://www.soundstream.com/sub/IMAGES/products/HUMAN2.GIF

Yup, that is an actual, functioning amp. They have a 450x2 stereo amp or a 125x4 4-channel model...itll also set ya back a cool $3700!!

If I had $7400 just lying around, and a need for 2000+ watts, I would definitely have a pair of these in my truck!

[MacLeod]

The problem with RC's test is that he states, you need to pick out XYZ amp from each test rather than a test of "This is amp A, now is the next amp the same or different than amp A". The first, even if you here a difference, it is a crap shoot to guess which one is which. In the second, you can tell a difference and that's the question being asked. (As opposed to "Which one is this?")

I have done both in my house with my own equipment with cables and amps. I never passed his style of test, but the other I can pass >95% of the time with amps. As far as cables go, as long as they are properly built, I have never heard any difference or passed any blind tests. Sorry...


Nope. You listen to 2 amps and choose which one you think is Brand X.

If you take youre favorite amp, say an Adcom up there and he pairs it with a Rotel or something, youll sit down and listen to them both with your own music and you in control of everything and then pick which one, either A or B is the Adcom. If there are obvious differences like the Rotel is way to sibliant and the Adcom is very warm with tight midbass then it should be simple to pick the Adcom every time.

Youre only picking between 2 amps and you chose the 2 amps that you can pick from! Hell you can even take your own amps to the test if you dont want to use any of his! You can even bring your own speakers.There is no trick.

[jdhdiggs]

Right, you're still trying to pick brand XYZ from two choices, not if their different, that's the point...

My point is that I know they sound different. Now can I say 100% of the time, "oh, that's the counterpoint" or "Hey, who put the Carver back in?" No, not without looking, but I can tell that something is different 100% of the time.

[madmax]

This Tru (http://www.trutechnology.com/products/copper/c74_t.htm) is the best tube amp on the car audio market. Damn good looking amps too. Run ya about $2500. Tru makes about the best amps in car audio and some of them are the best looking on the market

But the best looking amp of all time is the Human Reign from Soundstream. How would ya like to have these on your rack? ;)

http://www.soundstream.com/sub/IMAGES/products/HUMAN1.GIFhttp://www.soundstream.com/sub/IMAGES/products/HUMAN2.GIF

Yup, that is an actual, functioning amp. They have a 450x2 stereo amp or a 125x4 4-channel model...itll also set ya back a cool $3700!!

If I had $7400 just lying around, and a need for 2000+ watts, I would definitely have a pair of these in my truck!


Nah man, still a few tubes thrown in with SS BS.
madmax

[MacLeod]

But if Adcoms are very warm and you compare it with a NAD which is very bright it should be quite easy to pick out the Adcom everytime. But yet nobody ever has.

If you were to take some Jensen bookshelf speakers and compare them blindly with some LSi9's I guarantee you that youd pick out the LSi9's 100% of the time.

[MacLeod]

Nah man, still a few tubes thrown in with SS BS.
madmax


The Human Reign is all SS.

The Tru however is a pure tube amp.

[madmax]

The Human Reign is all SS.

The Tru however is a pure tube amp.

The Tru is the one I was talking about. SS BS.
madmax

[MacLeod]

The Tru is the one I was talking about. SS BS.
madmax


Yeah, ok. I officially give up.

So now tube amps are soild state amps? I just cant keep up. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing20.gif

[madmax]

Yeah, ok. I officially give up.

So now tube amps are soild state amps? I just cant keep up. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing20.gif


That one looks like it only uses pre-amp tubes. I could be wrong. :)
madmax

[madmax]

This is what I consider a real automotive tube amp. At least I was within inches of ordering it once.
http://milbert.com/BaM235ab/

madmax

[McLoki]

Yeah, ok. I officially give up.

So now tube amps are soild state amps? I just cant keep up. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing20.gif
You lasted a lot longer than I did. All that working out must be doing you some good..... :D

Michael

[ND13]

This is what I consider a real automotive tube amp. At least I was within inches of ordering it once.
http://milbert.com/BaM235ab/

madmax

Wow!!! $2649 car amp. I bet it sounds great, but WOW!!!!! $2649 car amp.

[madmax]

Working out is not in my vocabulary. I think the words I use are "spent", "tired" and "oh woe is me"... On the price, I thought it was $1600 or something. At least two years ago when I was really into it that was about the price. At $2649 I wouldn't consider it. I'll stick with my old pair of RF 1100's. Not that I know what they sound like, they are still sitting here in bags... :)

I joke about CA sometimes but believe me, you can get some great SQ if you know what you are doing and get lucky with synergy.

madmax

[madmax]

You lasted a lot longer than I did. All that working out must be doing you some good..... :D

Michael

MacLeod's a smart guy, he'll get there. Now, you hold him and I'll find a sock to put the soap in... :D

madmax

[MacLeod]

OK, this really, truly is my last post cause I really am giving up....honest...I swear....cross my heart.

Ill leave you with a quote from the brilliant mind of Carl Sagan:

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe."

Now I retreat! Run away!!!!! http://www.animation-station.com/smileys/images/blbl.gif

[madmax]

You better be runnin' freakin' fast after that one...
madmax

[MacLeod]

I can run faster scared than you can mad!

[madmax]

Ya know, I've been workin out recently...
madmax

[heiney9]

OK, this really, truly is my last post cause I really am giving up....honest...I swear....cross my heart.

Ill leave you with a quote from the brilliant mind of Carl Sagan:

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe."

Now I retreat! Run away!!!!! http://www.animation-station.com/smileys/images/blbl.gif

Ya know this quote goes bothways (get yer mind outta the gutter). You believe there is no difference so your belief is not based on evidence and you have a deep seated need to believe http://www.animation-station.com/smileys/images/blbl.gif

H9

[dorokusai]

Is this thread still alive?

I've been involved and have read and/or contributed so much about this RC challenge, it's simply O L D.

The challenge has been around for a long time, and it has produced nothing. It's rhetoric, it's opinion and simple, ego driven theory. It's a grift.

Read this into the "song"...I will accept your money to prove you're wrong...sound like anything you found in your Spam filter lately?

I am a cable believer, do I benefit from a purchase? No. Do I care if you purchase a cable based on our forum? Yes, but whose cable makes zero difference to me...just get involved and you were given some real world information to perform that function.

RC is a cable non-believer, does he benefit from a purchase? No. Negative cable reviews exist and are as valid as the next. If you found no benefit, amen, and we move forward.

Is my opinion any less valuable? Why, and please explain in detail.

It should be easy right? Either I am uneducated...uninformed...or just plain stupid? I would really grow with this...let me know.

The variable that you must introduce, which in a physical variable is almost impossible, mentally should defer to the originator and it subsequent history.

[jdhdiggs]

Mac,

Not to dump on this thread much more than it has already but imagine a situation where you had to similar drag cars. On runs say 10.7's and the other 11.0's.

Now you go to another track (which may be longer or shorter-ie not your equipment) and the use their own drivers (Sources) Since your not allowed to watch the race but which car ran the 11.3 and which ran the 11.35? Now do this 12 times and see if you guess which is the 10.7 car every time...

You can see on the new track with new drivers that there is a difference between the cars but you cannot tell decisively which one is which. That's the flaw in his style of testing.

Also, it wouldn't be in a persons best interest to brag about winning the contest. As RC has already shown, he has excuses already set-up. (They weren't level balanced, one of the output drivers failed, etc...) And thousands have not tried this contest.

[madmax]

Speaking of cars, what is happening here is called "bench racing".
madmax

[MacLeod]

Just when I think Im out - they pull me back in! ;)

JD - So what youre saying with that race car analogy is that the differences are so small that you cant pick them out. Great, we agree. Thats all Ive been saying. Compare amps equally and their differences will be inaudible. I knew youd come around! :p

And yes, its imperative that the amps be level matched. I could certainly hear a difference if one amp is louder than the other. Hell, you could take 2 identical amps from the same manufacturer and with consecutive serial numbers and make them sound different by turning the bass boost up on only one, setting the gain higher on only one and so on.

[madmax]

MacLeod,
Just not getting it huh?

Maybe a special class or some tutoring is in order. Maybe some OJT or something similar.

madmax

[MacLeod]

Would that include riding the little bus? :D