No pre-amp at all??

[madmax]

OK, I'm just a little crazy these days, I'll give you that.

Recently I connected my system with no preamp at all. The volume level with my specific components is about 90% of what my amp/speakers can normally handle. For example, my preamp at the highest clean setting was about 3:00. With the component driving the amps (no preamp) it is the same volume level as 2:00 would have been with the preamp installed. Pretty loud but still reasonable.

My findings are very strange. You know what? The volume control is a crutch just like a bass or treble control is.

I sit down and put one of my louder rock LP's on. (VanHalen) and start to listen. It seemed a little too loud. I wanted desperatly to turn it down a little bit, at least until I could build up to that sound level. But I couldn't, no volume control. I felt kind of helpless. After a few songs it seemed right.

A little later I put on some Carpenters. Pretty smooth songs. Half way through the first song I wanted to increase the level. I could'nt obviously because I had no volume control so I just let it play. I really enjoyed it though.

After that I played some Manhatten Transfer. Some stuff is smooth and some is more lively. One song is live and very loud.

All of a sudden it hit me. The lack of control was the same as when you listen to music in a club, stadium or someones basement band. Not relying on that knob caused excitement and mellow enjoyment depending on what was being played. I was able to focus much more intently on the music rather than thinking about setting the volume to please "me".

This lack of control enlightened me somewhat. I heard things presented differently than what I'm used to. Songs started to sound much different than I remembered. At first I was somewhat uncomfortable but after a while I started to learn to accept whatever was on the recording. I heard a lot of new stuff I never realized was there.

I may not go back to a preamp now. Although I was uncomfortable at times I found a listening enjoyment that I had not enjoyed previously.

Try it. Next time you listen to some loud rock set your volume where it is the best sounding. Don't touch it for a week while playing all different types of music you are used to. I think you will be surprised. At first it was like quitting smoking or something. It is now my opinion that volume controls cause bad habits you are unaware of...

madmax

[VR3]

try explaining that to my Mom.

[madmax]

try explaining that to my Mom.

Print out the post, tell here you are conducting a scientific experiment and tell her she will have to live with it for a few weeks... ;)
madmax

[beardog03]

I did the same thing with my new headphones..
pluged them into the Ah! cdp, and it was real loud...no volume control..

after a couple of songs, I got used to it..

It sounded just the way it should..

since there is no volume control, there is no way to change the dynamics of the music and it flows like a waterfall..!!

[ND13]

So what you're saying is to just plug the source directly into an amp, not an integrated, just an amp?

I bet it would help to have songs like on DSOM that lead into the songs gradually, or it could be quite startling.

[Zero]

I did this many years ago. It definately removes a lot of the colorations a pre amp (even a true passive) can give. Its fun to experiment with things of that sort.

Transients and dynamics out the rear end - but in the end I found that I liked that cream filling that a pre amp typically introduces.

And yeah Noel, DSOM without a pre is exciting to say the least!!! I recommend audiofools to try this at least once... and if you like it, find a player/transport with a remote for those nights when you want to listen at reasonable levels..

[Dennis Gardner]

From Audiobliss's search for a preamp thread.................

This may piss someone off but, if you are "critically listening" to music the way the engineer intended, you don't need a volume knob, let alone a remote. Play the disc, lp, tape, the way it was intended with all the differences in it, they are called dynamics.

[shack]

My opinion is the same now as then....I WANT a volume control AND a remote.

[Dennis Gardner]

My opinion is the same now as then....I WANT a volume control AND a remote.

Thats why they put'em on, different strokes. ;)

[gidrah]

I met a guy a couple of years ago at MWAF (Midwest Audio Fest). He is a heavy hitter over at AA. He uses in-line resisters built into his interconnects. He has no preamp and when he wants to change levels, he changes interconnects. He's a little too heavy for me, but I would love to hear his VERY major system.

[lanion]

No preamp would basically mean everything plays at what would be 0db on a preamp... right?

[BobMcG]

I used to do this years ago too. The then highly rated Denon DCDP 1520 was run directly to the amp. I could (can, I still have it) run it two ways, through a fixed output or through a variable one. It was fun running it fixed at times :eek: but in the long run I usually ended up using the variable to tame (ok, tailor) the loudness. :o

For now, I think I'll get my money's worth out of the new MLP. :D

[steveinaz]

I think your findings make perfect sense, the more components out of the chain, the better. But like Shack-daddy said, who the hell wants to live without the convenience of a volume knob?

I also agree with Zero's comments on the "cream filling" that preamps can provide---coloration? You bet your ass, but in a very satisfying way, IMO. I love what my A3CR does to the music; it's full, exciting, punchy, it has emotion.

I did 8 days of listening with my CDP connected directly to the poweramp, though I did use the poweramps output controls to adjust volume. It was very clean, nice, airy; but in the end it was also too clinical; a little too perfect, sterile. Give me an active pre anyday.

[madmax]

OK, I'm willing to admit I named this post improperly. No preamp adds no extra tone, noise, whatever. But the point was to have no control over the volume. It just gives the music more power over the listener. Lots of good commit here! I think steveinaz put it best, the volume control is a convienience. It is my stance though that this "conviencience" is detrimental to the listening experience in certain situations. I just completed another listening session and again, although it was not the volume I would have picked, it was right. BTW, right on Dennis G...!
madmax

[madmax]

Oh, BTW, this is a totally different direction of thinking. I would expect much opposition. I just wanted to relate my particular experience. In my 20+ years of audio playing I just never happened to think to try this in the past...
madmax

[shack]

But the point was to have no control over the volume. It just gives the music more power over the listener.
Why the hell would I want that? You guys are getting way too esoteric here...

Starting to sound like Dan. Zen music. The music I am. Be the music.....naa,naa,naa,naa,naa,naa,naa... :D

Sometimes I think you guys try to get too analytical in the science. It's music...Art! Listen, interpret, enjoy. Just because some sound engineer made certain decisions doesn't mean they are right. If you want to "color" the sound to make it more pleasing to your ear...Do it.

I Know you guys are pretty passionate about this stuff (obviously). I've been involved in this audio thing and listening to music a LONG time (probably longer than many of you have been alive). I like good gear, I like good music, I like good recordings, but mainly I just like to listen and NOT take it too seriously. But as Dennis said earlier...It IS a choice we each have. To each their own I guess...

[audiobliss]

Interesting idea. Since my protable CDP has a variable output (the headphone jack), I hooked it up straight to my amps for a while. It also has a 'line-out' that has a fixed volume. I may hafta try using that some time.

[Gaara]

Madmax,

Ever tried attenuators like the EVS Ultimate Attenuators? I was always interested in these things in the past, but I'm just to lazy to keep walking up and turning them. The fixed ones seem really cool, if you want a little decrease in the volume hook them in, if not leave them out. Just a thought.

Jared

[gidrah]

max - Go to AA and check out Tafka Steve. He has some pics of his very admirable system. I've met him and can say that he seems to know what he's talking about. Check his pics.

[Dennis Gardner]

Esoteric, Zen, analytical, interpret, art, passionate...............them would be fightin' words iffin' I was in a bar tonight.

Man ya' sure know how to turn a "guy thing" into something I'm startin' to feel embarassed about. :D :D :D

Good an ya' Shack, at least we are "into" the hobby bigtime!

[faster100]

Cool to try different things, and get all pure. But at the end of the day, I like a volume.. balance doesnt matter to me, But i like a bass/treble control also to be quite honest. The last few tube pre's ive had only had volume and that's fine.. but that's where i draw the line. Gave up the remote, the bass/treble and balance... all in the name of pure sound. I aint a givin up my volume :D

[RuSsMaN]

Just pulled the Melos SHA-1 out of the mix on the line arrays. AMC CD8b -> DPA Little Bit Three DAC -> Radii Audio MMS211 monos.

Holy Shiat! 95db speaks, on 12w single ended amps = LOUD. It is interesting, to say the least. I can't do ANYTHING about it. It is what is, and it's certainly dynamic. Shocking at first, but I got acclimated to it in a matter of seconds.

I think the AMC has a pretty high output (close to 2v if I recall), I'm going to roll the Cal Audio DX-1 in, and see how 'loud' it is (around 1v). Whether or not that makes a difference going through a DAC - I don't know, but I'm about to find out.

You're an odd duck Chuck, but I love you for it. ;)

Cheers,
Rooster

[PolkThug]

This lack of control enlightened me somewhat.

You should try a ball gag and love cuffs.

[Dennis Gardner]

Russ..............the big tube dude.

[cmy330go]

I'm glad you posted this Madmax! I always pondered doing this, but never had the guts to do it. I'll have to give it a try soon. Of course that will mean pulling my brand new tube integrated out of the rack and hooking my Halo back up. Hook Up, Tear Down, Hook Up, Tear Down, Hook Up, Tear Down......I SWEAR IT NEVER ENDS!!!!! Oh well, Gotta love it! ;)

[organ]

Madmax,
Thanks for the info. I think I'm gonna give it a try when nobody's home. Better start with something soft for me. My speakers are 98db/w/m so it would probably be too loud.

Russ,
Faaak, is that a SET amp? That's one big ass tube!

[RuSsMaN]

211 monos baby. Power Triode. 790v to the plate on the 211, 370v to the 6BM8 front end driver. If it ever gets ugly, I'll never feel it - but I'll go out with a cool hairdo.

They double as 30w light bulbs, and small space heaters - with rising natty gas costs, I figured I better have a heat source in the second living room.

Cheers,
Rooster

PS- G man has been swamped, the GTA will be handled, be patient.

[danger boy]

some music just sounds better at increased levels. i wouldn't expect someone to listen to Van Halen at the same levels they listen to the Carpenters. it would be to strange to listen to the Carpenters that loud.

[steveinaz]

I'm a little confused, if you run your source directly to the amp, and you have no way of controlling the source' volume, wouldn't the amp being playing at max? Isn't the fixed output of most line sources enough to drive an amp full on? :confused:

[Dennis Gardner]

I'm a little confused, if you run your source directly to the amp, and you have no way of controlling the source' volume, wouldn't the amp being playing at max? Isn't the fixed output of most line sources enough to drive an amp full on? :confused:

Voltage dependent. A preamp actually increases voltage above line level, thus the added sonic differences through amplification. Most home items are 700mv to 2 volts which isn't enough to drive an amp full bore.

[audiobliss]

Awesome looking Radii's, Russ. Oh, and thanks for the new sig! :D

[steveinaz]

Voltage dependent. A preamp actually increases voltage above line level, thus the added sonic differences through amplification. Most home items are 700mv to 2 volts which isn't enough to drive an amp full bore.

Must be my components, when running my CDP direct into my HCA-1500, I could have the amps output knobs at about 11:00-12:00 and that thing was loud as hell, can't imagine running CDP full input/output...

[ND13]

I've always been under the impression that an amp is always full out and the pre regulates the amps output. Unless the amp has gain controls, like both of my amps, and they are not turned all the way up.

I'm probably under the wrong impression, though :rolleyes: :p

[audiobliss]

^^ That's how I've always understood it.

[W WALDECKER]

I've always been under the impression that an amp is always full out and the pre regulates the amps output. Unless the amp has gain controls, like both of my amps, and they are not turned all the way up.

I'm probably under the wrong impression, though :rolleyes: :p a few months ago i ran my CDP directly to my monoblocks and the volume level was not anywhere near what the amps are capable of so i think the amount of volume is directly tied to the output capability of the source component.thanks....WCW III

[audiobliss]

Ahh, I think I just figured it out. When you turn on the amps with no preamp or with the preamp off, the amp/s are wide open. The preamp then changes the volume by cutting back on the signal going to the amps. The preamp either lessens the signal or adds gain to the signal from the source, thus changing the volume. However, when you hook a source up directly to the amps, you have no control over the gain and thus the volume. The output voltage of the source dictates the volume.

[ward91]

oh i cant do that
my amps direct inputs still have the volume contrler on them , i once accedentely put the outputs in the inputs and then there was no volume . (made me jump wen i went to put on a movi ) lucky it still works.

[ward91]

No preamp would basically mean everything plays at what would be 0db on a preamp... right?

yes that is so isnt it?

[steveinaz]

My understanding is that if the source component (Cd Player, Tuner, etc) has enough output to drive the amp to full capacity, then it will; but, if the amp requires more source signal than the source can provide to attain full output, that's when an active preamp would be needed to give the necessary boost (gain) to allow the amp to reach full output. I've just never heard of running a line source directly into an amp at full output before. I'd be scared as hell to hit the "play" button, thinking my speakers were about to be sent into orbit.

Then again, I could be full of shit. :D

[madmax]

This is more the idea that you set the volume to the correct level for some loud rock and tell yourself you can not change it. Problem there is that if I had done it that way I would have ended up changing it and would never have experienced what I did. That's why I suggested removing the pre.

How about this, put some good lively rock on and enjoy it for awhile. Wherever you end up at with the volume control, leave it there for the next few listening sessions and don't change it no matter what.
madmax

[cfrizz]

Sounds like a good way to damage your hearing. :eek:

Shack has it right, sit down, shut up, and listen to the damn music!!!! ;) :D

[beardog03]

alot od cdp`s have an adjustable output on them..

[shack]

Shack has it right
I live in a house with three women. This is a phrase I am unaccustomed to hearing from a woman. I need to savor this moment as it may never happen again.

[BlueMDPicker]

Originally Posted by madmax
This lack of control enlightened me somewhat.

You should try a ball gag and love cuffs.
:D :D

[steveinaz]

Max--

Ok...I get it. Play all my music loud, I do that ALL THE TIME....You're right it is cool...LOL

[cfrizz]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!


I live in a house with three women. This is a phrase I am unaccustomed to hearing from a woman. I need to savor this moment as it may never happen again.

[steveinaz]

Cathy
I think you made shack-daddy's day!

[cfrizz]

LOL! I guess so!

[ward91]

on my AVR o dB is good its loud enought but not distorted, but my neigbur spent over £700 on a in car system and his -20 dB was starting to badly distort wheras i listen to mine at about -20 to -10 dB most of the time

[TroyD]

The lack of control was the same as when you listen to music in a club, stadium or someones basement band.

Sorry, but I've got to disagree with this. Most every live event I've been to, the sound is HEAVILY managed to include the volume.

The volume of the record without attenuation, IMO, is heavily dependent on engineering so I'm not with the 'it gets you closer to live' line of thought.

Now, to remove a link in the chain and all that particular piece brings to the party, sure. However, I've got to have control of the volume for a myriad of reasons.

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

The point (which everyone seems to be missing), is that YOU have no control over it.

[TroyD]

No, I get that but I don't see the higher fidelity aspect in that.

BDT

[audiobliss]

I think it's more the fact that since you have no control over it, you soon forget about it and start focussing on the sound more, instead of the volume.

[TroyD]

Maybe I'm different but if the music is not at a level that I want it to be at, I don't want to listen.

Different strokes for left handed people, no big deal.

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

Troy (and others), it wasn't suggested as a permenant 'fix', just something to try. A release of control. It wasn't a campaign to 'get rid of your preamps, you dont need them', or a poll to see what people thought about preamps - it was an excercise in audio, that's all.

Try it.

[madmax]

I think it's more the fact that since you have no control over it, you soon forget about it and start focussing on the sound more, instead of the volume.


FINALLY! SOMEONE GETS IT. :)

madmax

[ND13]

I've got the afternoon off and noone at the hacienda, so when I get home, I'm gonna throw on DSOM and take the MLP out of the chain and see how it does.

Nevermind, re-read the post...2V or something like that.. :)

[TroyD]

I didn't really think it was a campaign to get rid of pres....I was just posting my thoughts about the premise..

No biggie

BDT

[madmax]

A release of control. Try it.

Hmmm...

Me personally, I'll stick to taking the preamp out of the circuit. :D

madmax

[madmax]

Stay tuned for my next experiment: Audio systems with interconnects, speaker wires and power cables disconnected. I expect a lot of noise to go away. :D
madmax

[cmy330go]

Stay tuned for my next experiment: Audio systems with interconnects, speaker wires and power cables disconnected. I expect a lot of noise to go away. :D
madmax

I tried this once. The W.A.F. is OUTRAGEOUS! :D

[RuSsMaN]

No biggie Troy, I was 'just sayin' broham.

Yeah Noel, I've got some CD8b manuals somewhere, I'll see what it is exactly. It was much louder than the Cal Audio running them without a DAC - through the DAC it made no difference which CDP was hooked up.

Chuck, I was going to suggest running with all the tubes removed - but you might be onto something with the cables.

[shack]

Since Cathy already told me I was right, I'm not going to express any more opinions on this thread, even though I have some. I'm still livin the moment.

[TroyD]

I hear ya, cochise....

The output of the CD8b was on the order of 2.2 - 2.4....in that neighborhood.

It's pretty high, I used one with a passive pre for quite awhile with great results.

BDT

[shack]

Yeah Noel, I've got some CD8b manuals somewhere, I'll see what it is exactly. It was much louder than the Cal Audio running them without a DAC - through the DAC it made no difference which CDP was hooked up.
Noel must have edited what this refers to. It does however remind me that when I first got my NAD T572 CD Changer I did a comparison with my D500SE. I connected both into the ELP and syncronized two copies of the same CD so that I could switch from source to source to compare the two. There was a SUBSTANTIAL difference in the sound level between the two sources (the CA was much louder). The CA was 2.4Vrms vs the NAD which was 2.0Vrms both through the analog outputs. I could be wrong but that difference seems much more insignificant than the difference I heard. Since it is obvious from this excercise that output from different sources is not uniform then the sound level going to an amp directly is NOT necessarily what the sound engineer intended but is still dependent upon the source equipment.

[ND13]

Okay, just got through with a few songs on DSOM and it was really clear and loud, but not to the point of damaging the speakers at all. I'd say except for a little hiss that is more than likely due to the original mix, it sounded great. Now did it sound as good as with the Dodd, well...let's just say it was different, very analytical. Maybe I'll try it again once I get a tube amp.

[reeltrouble1]

How did Big Daddy fall asleep on this thread, I could of said so much, of course its already been said and not that it would of mattered. Back to bed.

RT1

[madmax]

All I can say to Big Daddy is "Don't try this with the silver 9t's!" :)
madmax

[audiobliss]

There was a SUBSTANTIAL difference in the sound level between the two sources (the CA was much louder). The CA was 2.4Vrms vs the NAD which was 2.0Vrms both through the analog outputs. I could be wrong but that difference seems much more insignificant than the difference I heard.

That makes me think about the HU in my car and how its preouts are 6.5V. I wonder how loud that'd be if I hooked it up to a HA amp.