What to get....

[brettw22]

I'm going to be having a system put in my car within the next few weeks. I'm not doing it myself (Tweeter is), but I want to get all the parts necessary to get the install done by mid December.

I'm putting in 2 sets of SR6500's, a 400.4 amp, and (if my dipshit friend will get back to me) a Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP. A sub, as discussed in another thread somewhere, isn't being installed in this car because this sytem will ultimately be coming out when I sell this car within a year or two and at that point I will look into a sub. Because Tweeter is installing the system, they will also return the car to stock when I decide to pull the system out of this car, with the idea being that I'll pay them to re-install it into the new vehicle. Whether I do that or not is yet to be seen, but I'm all for them doing the install/uninstall on this vehicle.

What type of things do I need to get (fuses, cabling, etc etc) for them to have most, if not all, of the parts to complete the install?

[neomagus00]

yay on the headunit, that's what i have... yay also on the SRs, that's what i wish i had (why two sets, though??), w00t on the 400.4... and you know, if you build a sealed box with a sub in it, it's very transportable...

it may be easier to simply let them use the wiring that they need, with the exception of RCAs/interconnects... they'll use the exact amount of power and ground cable they need, they have the remote wire there, they can cut just the amount of speaker wire they need, they have exactly the right number of wire ties and terminators, et cetera, et cetera...

i would buy the best interconnects you can bring yourself to afford... in MY opinion, and in MY system, they made a huge difference... some people have found no difference in their cars and to their ears... to each his own, but i suggest you get at least above-average cables no matter what, if only for build quality...

[brettw22]

I'm getting 2 sets because there WILL be rear speakers in this car. Even if they're hugely underutilized on the rear deck, they'll be there and I want them there. I didn't like the sound of the Momo's at Tweeter, but some Boston Acoustic's did sound good, but rather than do that, I decided that nothing would blend better than another set of SR's......

The headunit I was thinking about going with a Navi system, but decided that in the new car, I won't be putting one in (factory features that would be lost if I change the head unit) and I don't want an el-cheapo deck, so I'll go single DIN quality unit.

I don't want a portable sub box (actually hate the idea of a sub in general to be honest......in a car) but if I do it, I'm going to get it installed so it takes up as little space and looks as best as possible. I could totally change my mind and decide that I don't want it alltogether as well, or I could go back and have Tweeter install a sub if I decide I want a bit more bass after I have the current lineup installed. The other issue is I don't ultimately want to get another amp because the plan right now is to have the 400.4 installed under the passenger seat, so finding somewhere else to put the amp seems less likely (don't want a sub box, nor the amp attached to it). Picky, eh?

[MacLeod]

Tweeter is a good choice for installing your system, they have very capable installers and should do you a good job.

As for what you need to buy in the way of cables and fuses and all that will be covered in the cost of installation. If they quote you $200 for complete install (just throwing that figure out there) that will include RCA's, speaker wires, fuses and everything else you need.

About the only scam they could try and pull on you is the high dollar RCA's. Dont fall for it. Buy a good quality set thats shielded and perfereably twisted and thats all youll ever need.

Other than that, those speakers with that amp will be a great match and Im sure youll love the way you rig sounds and I guarantee you that youll find yourself more and more wishing you had a little further to drive so you can listen longer. ;)

[heXtant]

two sets of sr's? wow. powered by a c400.4? wow. should sound pretty damn amazing. what kind of car is this going into? (im new :x)

[brettw22]

Nothin special.........a 2001 Honda Accord.

The dollar amount for the install was just over $300. The breakdown is:
- $100 : Front Speakers
- $50 : Back Speakers
- $70 : Amp
- $45 : Deck
- $40 : Parts for the deck

I need to confirm those prices and get an official price sheet, but I think that I remember the guy saying cables and anything else would be on top of that.

I was thinking abot upgrading the wire instead of using the factory wiring, but I need to weigh the cost/benefit ratio considering that this IS a temporary install.....albeit for up to 2 years possibly.

Are you guys saying I should buy some RCA interconnects before having them install or buy theirs? I wouldn't have the slightest idea what lengths would be needed etc so I'm not sure I want to do that.

[MacLeod]

They carry Monster so if you dont like them you may want to try some others. Hit your local stereo shops and pick up something along the lines of Stinger or, my favorite, Streetwires.

Here (http://www.cardomain.com/shoptype/Interconnect+Signal+Cables) is a link to a great online dealer so you can get an idea on pricing. If you cant find any good local shops then order off of Sounddomain. Its about the best dealer online and fully authorized.

Definitely use aftermarket speaker wires. The stock crap is awful and youll notice an increase in signal strength instantly. Also make sure you tell them you want the aftermarket wire ran ALL THE WAY to the speaker. A lot of times theyll run it to the door and then splice into the OEM wire leading up to the speaker.

You wont need more than 20' of any wire.

Browse around here (http://www.cardomain.com/shop/amp_install) for an idea of all the cool gadgets available out there and get an idea on pricing.

[brettw22]

One problem I have is that in the stock locations, the tweeters are at the corners of the dash/windshield with the mid on the door. I don't know if I want to have them install the tweets up top because of the mods that would DEFINITELY be required for that one. I'm contemplating having them put the tweet in the cap cover with the angled bezel and having the factory tweets just disconnected. I want to keep this as simple as possible with these speakers.

As sad as this is to ask......are the interconnects to run from the deck to the amp for each of the channels? So with 4 speakers I need to have 4 interconnects for the install, right? or more?

[MacLeod]

Yup you got it. Just like in HA. RCA's connect the head unit to the amp and youd need a pair of RCA's for each set so that would be 2 pair for all 4 speakers.

That wouldnt be a horrible idea of mouting the SR's coaxially. The only thing that would really suffer would be you stage would be substantially lowered but it would cut down on installation hassles so I say its not a bad idea.

[brettw22]

I can always go longer and have them tuck the extra somewhere under the dash, right? I don't want to risk ordering something too short.

[exalted512]

Everything that you listed is really killer gear.

SR's are fantastic drivers and you'll be nothing short of amazed with the clarity from them in a car.

400.4 is a great amp. When Polk first came out with their amps I thought they were a little on the expensive side but with a little hands on experience with them they were better than I originally thought. Its ashame they havent become more popular.

The 860 is an awesome deck. Pioneers best deck IMO. It will have better SQ than the 960 and looks a helluva lot better too. The features and controls it has are nothing short of amazing. The frequency and slope settings on it are very expensive. If I was getting a new deck for my truck, behind the P9(which is quite a bit more expensive), my choice would be the 860. Awesome deck.

As far as parts:
youll need an amp kit which will have everything you'll need. A 4awg amp kit will run you about $50. I'd also get some Streetwires ZN3 cables. Make sure its for a 4-channel though. It'll run you ~$50ish, but I wouldn't go with anything less. I would also get an amp kit with an ANL fuse as opposed to an AGU(the glass ones) if you plan on using the same wire when you put it in your new car and add a sub. It might make the kit like $10 extra, but worth it.

As far as labor goes, this is what my shop would charge you:
$90x2 for the SRs
$90 for the amp
$45 for the deck if you got it from somewhere else, $35 if you bought it from us.

So around ~$315 for labor, $30 for parts. Amp kit would be extra as well as RCAs. Most amp kits come with RCAs so make sure you get your RCAs that came with the amp kit back if you buy seperate ones. Just to give you an idea what another shop would do it for. Tweeter is actually a little cheaper than us.

Tell them you want all new wires. If you dont, they will tag on to your existing wires and you'll lose a lot of potential of your setup. We don't charge extra for that, but you do have to ask or we'll tag onto the stock wires too. They will probably have to drill a small hole in your door under your grommet because Honda is gay and they have a plug on each side of the grommet instead of just having wires go through. Also, if its anything like my g/f's 04 civic, there will be some metal cutting for the front doors. Honda's stock speakers have a magnet the size of a coke bottle cap and they dont leave much room for anything else besides their stock speakers in the door.

You're not going to need anything else besides what I listed. If they try to sale you anything else, I'd run it by here before you go ahead and buy it, chances are youre not going to need it.

I can look up the kit and harness you'll need if you want me to. You could get it on ebay for much cheaper than $40. I want to say the harness is Metra's 70-1721 but I don't know for sure. I'm not sure what the kit is.

Here it is for $8
http://cgi.ebay.com/BHA1721-70-1721-Honda-Acura-Radio-Wire-Harness-Plug_W0QQitemZ5834998313QQcategoryZ32812QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm sure you could get the dash kit for about the same and save you $20.

-Cody

[neomagus00]

yeah... you don't want hugely long cables, obviously, but rather too long than too short...

[exalted512]

RCAs:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRZN3504
exact cable/length you'd need
-Cody

[brettw22]

I'm hoping that with the somewhat shallowness of the SR's (small magnet as well) that they won't have to cut metal on the doors. Otherwise I don't see how they could 'return the car to stock' like they will be at the end of this vehicle's run under my ass.

I see no specific information on that link that you gave me to streetwires as to how many actual cables come in that $50 item. Is that per cable or for all 4 of them?

What's the purpose of putting an additional battery in the mix? I've seen some pics of them arond, and I'm assuming for additional power, but how do those typically get hooked up and at what point are they necessary?

The Metra kit is 70-1721 but I also found (also a Metra item) a Pioneer receiver harness for Honda (p/n PR01-1720). What's that?

Where do you suggest getting an amp kit from? I have access to a Monster amp kit, but the only choices they have from this distributor are a 10 gauge 100 watt amplifier kit for $14.99 or an 8 gauge 200watt amp kit for $19.99. If an amp kit is mostly made of interconnects, why not just buy things individually since recommending the is to buy the Streetwires?

[exalted512]

they are shallow, but the basket is fairly wide whereas the opening in the g/f's civic was not. I'll still be able to put her speakers back in but there will be space around the speaker, which no one will ever see anyway.

The link i gave you is the only RCA youll need. Its a single cable with 4 different plugs for front left/right and rear left/right. Its in the length you need and its designed for a 4-channel. That is THE rca id get in your situation. If youre not comfortable buying online and have a streetwires dealer near you, tell them you want the SW ZN3504, the model number for that RCA.

Extra batteries are for extra power, usually with 1kw+ systems. They get hooked up in parallel(+ to +, - to -) or just connect the + together and ground each one. You wont need it, especially with no subs. You can also run an isolator where you can have 1 for the vehicle and one for the stereo. Isolators run 25-100 bucks depending on features/quality.

Im sure the second plug you found is a plug that has the pioneer plug on one side to plug into the radio and the honda 70-1721 on the other side. Instead of having to connect the pioneer plug that comes with the radio and the seperate harness(70-1771), its already connected. Theyre a little more expensive but make installation easier. Youre paying the same price either way, get the cheaper one.

Its still usually cheaper to get an amp kit and rca's. When it comes to car audio, as long as its car audio wire...wire is wire. No matter if its POS monster or stingers TOTL. The only difference is strand count which doesnt matter as far as current is concerned(at least not in DC), it only matters in flexibility, which is the main difference between the brands. I get all my power wire from www.knukonceptz.com. They actually have pretty good RCAs as well. I'm not sure if theyre as good as SW, but a friend of mine used their $19 RCAs and sounded just as good as his stinger $120 RCAs. I wouldnt hesitate to buy a 4-channel amp kit from them and use their RCAs. It would be this kit:
http://knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KOL-AK44

For your system, dont get 8awg, get 4awg.
-Cody

[brettw22]

oh......one thing I forgot to ask. Will the deck that I'm looking at allow for an aux connection to where I can have an RCA to 1/8 connector kinda hanging out of the dash so I can connect it to either something like an Ipod or my laptop?

You mentioned the Isolator, but is that only if I'm installing the extra battery? or something I should look at for the system I'm planning? What's the purpose of them?

[exalted512]

Yes it does have an auxilary adapter. Im not sure if they have one that goes straight from pioneers bus cable to 1/8" connector, but i know they have them that go from bus cable to rca, then rca to 1/8" connector. If youre wanting to do this for an ipod, pioneer makes an ipod adapter kit thatll run you about 150 bucks at a shop, about half that on ebay. It has everything youll need and even charges it for you.

An isolator is only for using an extra battery. I dont use one because I bought both my batteries from the same place, same time, theyre as identical as possible. If youre using 2 different batteries is when I'd suggest using an isolator. What they do is just charge one battery at a time, or distribute an even amount of charge to each battery, depending on the isolator and how you want to use it.

The only reason you'd need one is if youre going to be running dual batteries and they are different(even if theyre the same battery and one is a year old and one is brand new, theyre considered to be different)
-Cody

[brettw22]

I like the look of the StreetWires, and am probably going to get the amp kit and interconnects from them. I'm one of those crazies that likes things to be the same brand, etc......

EDIT: If there's even a chance that I decide to add an additional amp later, should I not just buy a multi-amp kit just to save the money involved so I don't have to spend more buying a single amp kit?

EDIT EDIT: Streetwires doesn't have an AGL fuse in the amp kits unless you're getting the 1/0 gauge, and it looks like (in all the pictures) that the fuse holder is already connected to the cables. If I get an ANL fuse in addition to the amp kit, they can cut the existing AGU fuse out of the kit, right? That sounds like a dumb question, but just want to make sure. If I understand correctly, the difference between the two is just more power handling from the ANL, right?

[brettw22]

My friend isn't gonna help with squat on the Pioneer deck, so what do y'all think about getting it on Ebay for $250-300 instead of the $500 street?

[neomagus00]

depends on the multi-amp kit... i, for example, am piecing together my wires as needed, because that saves me money over an amp kit... i'd say get a single-amp kit now, because all you'll really need to add is a d-block and interconnects for the second amp...

and yeah, they can remove the agu fuse and holder, but it's probably a good idea to have the anl fuse and holder in hand first...

[brettw22]

I didn't even see that I'd have to buy the fuse seperate.....sad.

Should I get a 100, 150, 200, or 300 amp fuse? The bigger the better so it doesn't pop, right?

[exalted512]

You might just want to stick with the agu fuse to save some money if it already comes with the kit. ANL just allows for more current to go through for larger amperage systems. The kit comes with fuse. If you do want to get an anl fuse, then get a 200A fuse for it and call it a day. 99% of the time if you buy the fuse holder seperately, you will have to buy the fuse

Ebaying the radio is up to you and if you want to chance it. Look up onlinecarstereo.com, they might have what you want. EndoAudio on ebay seems to be pretty good. IM djdilliodon on AIM, he might carry pioneer, im not sure.
-Cody

[brettw22]

I'm gonna get the ANL and the 200 amp fuse. I'm one of those that would rather overbuy something than underbuy it so I don't have to re-buy things that I've already bought.....

I'll check out the radio when I get back from work......thanks for all y'alls help!!!!

[audiobliss]

The 860 is an awesome deck. Pioneers best deck IMO. It will have better SQ than the 960 and looks a helluva lot better too. The features and controls it has are nothing short of amazing.
-Cody

I'm gonna remember that forever!! :D:D

[exalted512]

yea, it has a few more features than my 940, but my 940 is a much different deck from the new 960. The 960 is a pos IMO. But someday ill have the p9, and ill get it for employee discount:D
-Cody

[MacLeod]

I'm gonna get the ANL and the 200 amp fuse. I'm one of those that would rather overbuy something than underbuy it so I don't have to re-buy things that I've already bought.....

I'll check out the radio when I get back from work......thanks for all y'alls help!!!!


Whao! 200 amps for a single 4 channel is way over the top. Thats like using a fire hydrant to brush your teeth in! Just stick with the 4 guage wiring and 80 amp fuse. 80 amps will be more than youll ever draw.

A 200 amp fuse on a stock charging system might also increase the chance of a fire.

[audiobliss]

Whao! 200 amps for a single 4 channel is way over the top. Thats like using a fire hydrant to brush your teeth in!

That's funny! I might hafta add it to my sig! :p

[neomagus00]

A 200 amp fuse on a stock charging system might also increase the chance of a fire.
that would be bad, seeing as i'll have a 250...

[brettw22]

Changing the fuse order to a 100amp.....to have at least a little room for when/if I add another amp down the line.....

[neomagus00]

yeah, you can always simply put in a larger fuse, no biggie...

[exalted512]

the fuse in the front has absolutely nothing to do with the size of your amp. Youre more likely to start a fire with an 80A fuse in the front than a 150-250A fuse in the front when using 4awg. Get the 200A and dont worry about having to buy another one later.
-Cody

[brettw22]

Just out of curiousity, what does the amp in the front do? Does it have anything to do with fire possibility from (granted I'm just putting in one amp) too much heat being generated from some of these cars that have 2000watts in them and possibly causing a fire?

[PoweredByDodge]

brett - waaaiiit! save some cash - and aggravation... get a streetwires kit from overstock....

here....

10 awg which will do ya up to like 375-400 watts rms.
http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=9&detail=ok&PN=06202
$10 bucks and its streetwires :)

4 channel interconnects
http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=8&detail=ok&PN=A3-5M
45 bucks / pair, you'll need 2 pair.
again, streetwires -- esoteric audio A3, streetwires is esoteric's "car" edition... the A3's are a home interconnect, but dude... they're pimp if i ever saw pimp.



... or if you wanna be cool... get the best interconnect RCA's money can buy....
http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=8&detail=ok&PN=A5-5M
$110 bucks per pair, you'd need 2 pair... those are A5's, I've got A3's and they're quite nice I'll tell ya!

[PoweredByDodge]

the fuse in the front has absolutely nothing to do with the size of your amp. Youre more likely to start a fire with an 80A fuse in the front than a 150-250A fuse in the front when using 4awg. Get the 200A and dont worry about having to buy another one later.
-Cody

what the hell are you talking about?

you want the inline fuse to pop before the fuses on the amps. not much before, btu still before. that's why it has to be a little smaller. albeit the fuse at the battery is dual purpose - protecting against shorts in the cable along the path of travel, but it still serves the other purpose.

upon what grounds do you say an 80A fuse is more likely to cause a fire than a 200 a fuse?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

a fuse isn't going to cause a fire, but too large of a fuse will prevent a fuse block from preventing a fire...

brett -- take the fuse rating on the amp... i dont know what they are, but say it's two 20A fuses... that's 40A... go find a 35 A inline fuse. you get the idea.

[brettw22]

Decisions decisions......

As attractive as the $10 price is for the 10awg Streetwires kit, I don't think that would serve me well should I decide that I want to add another amp to the mix. The ANL fuses only go so low as 60 amp, and I can't find any information on the Polk site for what the fuse rating is of the 400.4. As I said before, I'm the type that would prefer to buy extra headroom in things so I have room to grow into them rather than buy just barely what will work with the current install, then have to replace everything when/if I put in more stuff. Granted, I'm working on an IF there, but if I act anything with car audio like I do with home audio, it's more a certainty than not.

I'll look into the A3's when I get home from work......I don't want to go completely schitzo on something that ultimately noone will see because this thing is going under a seat (I hope) and it's not being done for show. I also kinda like the look of the Streetwires (i know, just argued that they won't be seen.....i'm complicated like that), so we'll see (or not...ha).

[exalted512]

The fuse at the firewall is to protect the power wire, not the amp. The 400.4 has fuses onboard, those are to protect the amp. I have seen 4 cars with fuses that are small (2 60s and 2 80s) that burnt up the power wire because the fuse didnt pop. If you get to big a current draw in a split second time, it can melt the fuse to where it doesnt pop. A bigger ANL fuse wont do that. Thats why a 200A fuse will be less likely to start a fire than an 80.

Thats why I say go with at least a 150 up front with 4 awg, because I've seen 80A fuses be the cause of a fire whereas I've never even heard of it happening with a 150+ on any wire, much less 4awg.
-Cody

[MacLeod]

I strongly disagree with ya on this bro. The primary purpose of the inline fuse is to protect from fire! That is the whole reason you fuse the power wire BEFORE it passes thru the firewall. If there is a faulty installation and the power wire's insulation is stripped at one point and arcs against some metal, an 80 amp fuse is much more likely to pop thus stopping the flow of current and not catching the carpet on fire. A 200 amp fuse may not pop at all and up goes the interior of your car in pretty yellow flames.

The reason you dont hear about this happening with 150 amp systems is that 99% of the systems out there run 80 or less. Anybody that is going to run 150 amps is generally knowledgable enough or a professional that they will perform a proper install and will be much less likely to burn their car to the ground. All things being equal, a 80 amp fuse is much more likely to prevent a fire than a 200 amp especially if youre only pulling 35 amps off a 80 amp OEM charging system.


Brett - AGU fuses and holders are cheaper than ANL and are more readily available if you need replacements in a hurry (you can get replacement AGU fuses at Kmart) so I always use them. They only go up to 80 amps which is all youll need. Im running nearly 1000 watts and only have a 80 amp fuse and its plenty.

Oh and CLEAN OUT YOUR PM BOX.......slacker! ;)

[exalted512]

if a spark happens, a 200A fuse will blow. Sparks draw lots of current, theres no way it would spark and not blow it. 80A fuses on the other hand have been knowned to basically weld themselves together and not blow. The main purpose of that fuse is to protect the power wire, not the amp. Go high, be safe
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Correct me if Im wrong, but if youre using a 200 amp fuse and a stock 80 amp alternator, even if the wire arcs out wouldnt that just mean the wire is being fed only 80 amps? No sarcasm intended, genuine question.

Vinnie or John, your expertise is needed.

[brettw22]

just back to the hotel........my inbox has been cleaned up a bit

I'm prepared to be given shit for this.......but......I like the look of the ANL fuses/holder better.......lol......so an ANL it will be.......just a matter of the fuse size.

[PoweredByDodge]

Correct me if Im wrong, but if youre using a 200 amp fuse and a stock 80 amp alternator, even if the wire arcs out wouldnt that just mean the wire is being fed only 80 amps? No sarcasm intended, genuine question.

Vinnie or John, your expertise is needed.


... you got a battery don't you?

Ever Arc-weld before? It's fun stuff... you take a set of 4 awg jumper cables - you know, the good kind that Jewish guys buy. Hook to + and - on battery... then hook a piece of metal (say a 1/2" steel water pipe) to the - jumper cable. get some cheap metal like nikel and jamb it in the positive jumper cable... touch the positive (nikel) to the plate (-) and see what happens. you'll never get that shit apart. It's how you fix busted tie rods when you're on the thruway in no -man's land and there's no one there to help you. Just have to be careful you don't destroy your battery.

By the way - the 200A will not blow anywhere near soon enough.

I had a bunch of 200A fuses in this piece of scrap truck I have now when I was setting up the new battery terminals for the first time (after hacking out the factory shit).

I arc-welded the starter cable 2 awg wire terminal to the cable because it was too thick of a terminal to crimp without a vise. And I couldn't get at the starter easy to remove the whole wire. I arc-welded with a 250A slow-blow fuse on the line. That was to protect the battery. The fuse did go after a few minutes of "on" and "off" and "on" and "off" to get the terminal all welded together, but the job was done, and were i doing it near a leaky gas line or something of that nature, i'd be up in flames.

You should have seen the friggin sparks.

It was like the fourth of july under my hood.

An 80A fuse would have popped almost instantly. I don't buy that "if you get a surge of power" nonsense.

The short circuit current of ANY battery has NOTHING to do with the amplifier current draw. Electricity takes the path of least resistance. If you have 0 ohms and 1 ohm... its ALL going through the 0 ohm path.

So lets say you accidently drive a screw through one of your power lines... or better yet, lets say you get into an accident - minor fender bender - and your power line gets pinched, shorts it out to the metal of the vehicle.... you think it matters what friggin size amplifier or alternator you have? No.

Unless you have a 350A Ohio Generator under there, then 80% or better (ballpark guess) of the instantaneous current rush to and through that shorted out spot is going to come from your battery or batteries. The normal 80 to 120 amp alternator isn't going to make a big dent.

You're going to dump 500, 600, 1,000 true ampheres through that line. You don't think it's going to pop like a pimple on a 16 year old's ass?

and as far as "fuse makeup"... they're not going to weld shut... if they do, they're shitty fuses that are of god knows what kind of construction. A fuse is a simple piece of junk. The line of wire or metal between the two endcaps or tabs is nothing more than a piece of metal that will literally catch fire and melt or disentegrate after reaching a certain temperature... that temperature is a result of the heat created by current flow through it, and the SMALL BUT STILL PRESENT voltage drop across it. heat heat heat. pop pop pop.

slow blow fuses are sometimes just (example) 85 amp fuses labeled as 80's... that's the cheaper kind. the better slow blows are made in such a manner that they can sustain (example) 80 amps for a certain given amount of time (say 4 seconds), after that, they'll get too hot and pop. fast blows will pop virtually immediately upon reaching that 80 amp mark. they're both exponential curves. one's a bit sharper.

[brettw22]

Ok.....while I think I grasped your story about welding from a battery, I have no idea what it meant in regards to which size fuse I should get.

[brettw22]

Cody or Mac......

On those Streetwires ZN3 4 channel, is it just a single cable spliced into 4 ends on each side or is it 4 cables run parallel?

[PoweredByDodge]

brett it means go with the 80A fuse.

preferably, little rule of thumb...

add up the fuses of the amplifiers you are using (you're using just one amp so say its 40A - guessing). you would then get a fuse equal to or slightly lower than that number.

if you're using multiple amplifiers (say three polk 400.4's --- that's 120A - again guessing) --- then knock about 15% off that... and snag a 100 amp fuse.

but, since you're in love with the ANL's and the lowest you can get is 80A - then get an 80A and call it a day.

but wait - i'll just go the extra mile and solve the problem all together... you like the way the anl's look, and that's your motivating factor. no problem -- how about a "mini-anl".

there is a new style of fuse on the market - started by phoenix gold, but now streetwires and stinger also make them... its called "AFS", nicknamed "MIDI" and "MINI KM" - it's all the same thing though -- they're ANL fuses but only about 3/4 the physical size. They are available in TONS of ratings from down at 40 amps up to about 200A

and - just to find out - the ACTUAL fuses on the c400.4 are TWO 30A BLADES (60A)

here's a fuse holder --> http://www.cardomain.com/item/STISFH1MDPT
$8 in stock - it's a stinger brand holder -- the streetwires one is out of stock and 8 bucks more.

here's a fuse --> http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRAFS60
$7 for a twin pack. they're 60A "afs" - streetwires brand fuse, couldn't find the stinger ones... they're all the same though. they're just blue plastic anyway nobody can tell what brand teh fuse is.

again the AFS is a smaller identical twin brother to the ANL.

[PoweredByDodge]

Cody or Mac......

On those Streetwires ZN3 4 channel, is it just a single cable spliced into 4 ends on each side or is it 4 cables run parallel?


the ZN3 4 channels are FOUR pair of wires, twisted together... actually each pair is twisted together, then the 4 pairs are twisted together (looks like a chick's braided hair). then that is wrapped in a clear plastic jacket.

At the ends, you've got that main line splitting into 4 individual RCA jack ends, color coded.

ever since mitek bought out streetwires, they have not been making "individual jacket" cables. the only ones that still are individual jackets (glued together in the middle, much like speaker wire... where there are two pieces with that "line" in the middle of the wire) are the low noise 2.0's, but i believe those are being discontinued. the zero noise series is far better.

i had been the biggest advocate of the zero noise 5's for many years, even after they were no longer sold on the market. damn good wire.

esoteric made good shit - and now mitek/esoteric is making good shit.

[exalted512]

Well all fuses can hold more than their rated capacity. How long just depends on how much amperage. A 100A fuse can hold 200A for about 5 minutes. same fuse can hold about 110 for 2+ hours. Thats with ANL fuses. Obviously every fuse is different, but thats something we experimented with in school.

If something gets grounded out, then youre going to draw upwards up 800As. More than enough to blow any 350A fuse almost instantenously.

Heres a piece of a website i found today.
"Poor Quality AGU fuses:
The biggest problem with the AGU fuse is the quality. I am NOT saying that there are no good quality AGU fuses but there are a large number of manufacturers that make fuses of questionable quality. The lower quality fuses have a problem with the solder that connects the end caps to the fusible element. There is too much resistance in the solder connection which (with current flow close to their rated current) creates enough heat to melt the solder connection which leads to a melted fuse holder or a fuse with higher than normal resistance. The higher resistance will cause more of a voltage drop than a new fuse. If you can find some BUSS or LITTELFUSE brand AGU fuses, you won't be as likely to have problems. All of these problems can be alleviated by using Maxi fuses in the first place.

AGU fuse holders:
The problems listed above may be compounded if a poor quality fuse holder is used. I would strongly warn against using in line waterproof fuse holders. I said earlier that the AGU fuses may have a problem with heat buildup in their end caps. Using a fully enclosed waterproof type of fuse holder will prevent heat from escaping and will make the problem even worse. Using an open type of snap in fuse holder MAY help a poor quality fuse function properly. Using a good quality fuse in an open type snap in fuse holder will very likely work precisely as it should with little or no chance of overheating. The following is an open fuse holder. There are 2 quick connect terminals (inside yellow circles) and 1 screw terminal on each side of the fuse. The screw down connections are preferred for high current applications. The quick connect terminals will lead to an increased chance of overheating (due to higher terminal resistance)."
- http://www.bcae1.com/fuses.htm

Basically saying what I've been trying to tell you.

I still say go with the 150A, let the on-board fuses on the amp do their job and the 150A do its, protecting your car and your power wire from melting/catching on fire.
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Youre my bro Cody but Im going to go with PBD on this. After all, he's not an Aggie. :D

Brett - I really like those 4 channel cables. Having them twisted together like that not only adds a little extra protection against invading noise but also makes it a lot easier to manage during installation.

[exalted512]

When youve seen as many burnt fuse holders and fuses and power wires as ive seen from what i would consider a decent install, maybe youll change your mind:D
-Cody

[brettw22]

I put a call into Tweeters install department and they indicated that for my 4 gauge wire being connected to my 400.4, I should get a fuse somewhere between 120 and 180 amps. He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin.

I'm about to put an order in for the following:
- Streetwires PS04B : Multi Amp Kit (I want the cable and distribution block for when/if I do decide to up the number of amps) (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRPS04B)
- Streetwires FH4ANL : ANL fuse holder (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRFH4ANL)
- Streetwires ZN3604 : ZN3 6m 4 channel interconnect (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRZN3604)
- Streetwires ANL 150 amp fuse (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRANL150)

With all of the above, is there anything else I should look at ordering now while I'm looking to get all this stuff ordered? (battery terminals/posts, wire terminals, etc...) If I spend another $20 shipping is free..........

EDIT: OH YA!!!!!! I got my 400.4 and my SR's sitting in my living room......looking so ready to go into my car......i NEED to get this stuff ordered ASAP for a Christmas present to myself....

Lastly, I sent an email off to an Ebay seller for the Pionieer DEH-P860MP and am waiting to hear back from him. Hopefully I can time that arriving around the same time as all the above wiring stuff.

[MacLeod]

I put a call into Tweeters install department and they indicated that for my 4 gauge wire being connected to my 400.4, I should get a fuse somewhere between 120 and 180 amps. He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin.

I'm about to put an order in for the following:
- Streetwires PS04B : Multi Amp Kit (I want the cable and distribution block for when/if I do decide to up the number of amps) (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRPS04B)
- Streetwires FH4ANL : ANL fuse holder (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRFH4ANL)
- Streetwires ZN3604 : ZN3 6m 4 channel interconnect (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRZN3604)
- Streetwires ANL 150 amp fuse (http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRANL150)

With all of the above, is there anything else I should look at ordering now while I'm looking to get all this stuff ordered? (battery terminals/posts, wire terminals, etc...) If I spend another $20 shipping is free..........


Looks like youve got everything covered.

Might want to order a couple extra fuses.....although I dont see why since a 150 amp fuse would blow if it were struck by lightning.

[audiobliss]

Might want to order a couple extra fuses.....although I dont see why since a 150 amp fuse would blow if it were struck by lightning.

...'cause it might get struck by lightning? :p :D

[MacLeod]

LOL!! Good point bliss!

[brettw22]

I'm ordering 2 of the fuses just so i don't find myself without and waiting for a delivery......what about the other stuff?

[exalted512]

a postive battery terminal is a good thing. If you do plan on getting another amp, you might want to get a fused distroblock in which an agu block would work fine.

"He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin. "

someone at tweeter knows what hes talking about and repeated the same thing ive been saying all along.

With the extra $20 you could get some dynamat for the doors
-Cody

[brettw22]

So far everything I've been buying is removeable for the next car, so i want to stick with those intentions. Why do I only need a positive terminal and not a negative?

Where's an inexpensive place to look into dynamat?

[exalted512]

take a look at www.secondskinaudio.com Its whats going in my truck. Also look at raammat off ebay. Both of which are extremely good products, just as good--if not better than dynamat (and d. extreme) and much cheaper.

"Why do I only need a positive terminal and not a negative?"
Because you only hook up a power wire, not a negative. If you want, get the negative, theres nothing bad about it and youll match. But a lot of the time if you use your stock battery terminal, itll wiggle its way loose.
-Cody

[neomagus00]

it's because you usually ground to the chassis, not back to the battery...

[brettw22]

Are the positive and negative terminals to replace the stock terminal connections or to go on top of them for the connection of the 4gauge wire?

EDIT: What's the difference between the B1P and the B2P streetwires terminals? I can't see any description in why there's different designs.

[neomagus00]

the positive (and negative if you want it) should be able to hold all your stock wiring AND your new cable, because, yes, you do replace the stock terminal - the new one goes straight onto the battery post... and streetwires's site is being a retard, so i can't check on b1p vs. b2p...

[MacLeod]

"He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin. "



So a Tweeter installer agrees with you. Need I say more? :p

[exalted512]

i was thinking the same thing when i was typing that...good thing it wasnt a CC or BB employee!! Tweeter is one of the last few places I'd actually take a car to...
Im still right:D
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Nah, I think Tweeter is the goods. I would consider them a step above CC or BB but not up to par with high end shops.

The best shop I have nearby is Radio Clinic. Not only do they routinely compete and support local competitions but their installs are world class.

One of their installers 'glassed up his Montero pretty wickedly. It looked like it came from Mitsubishi like that. If I ever need 'glass work done, they will be the ones to do it.

http://tinypic.com/i5ysug
http://tinypic.com/i5yt4y

[exalted512]

wow, that looks great. I'm hoping my next truck install looks as smooth and clean as that. I'm still contemplating painting it or vinyling it. Vinyl would be much cheaper and cover up mess ups better, but paint is just so clean
-Cody

[MacLeod]

I will probably never try any glassing. It just aint my bag. I dont have the patience or temperment to work with it.

Wood is much more up my alley. You get pissed off or frustrated, you leave it for a day or two then come back all refreshed and ready to go. Fiberglass requires a lot more and constant attention. I have way too short a temper for that. :p

[exalted512]

Yea, you gotta stick with your thing...and wood work is def. yours. I can honestly say I dont know anyone else in the world that can make a box out of only 4 sides.
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Just cant let it go can ya? LOL

[exalted512]

not really...
-Cody

[audiobliss]

not really...
-Cody

ditto

I mean, that is such a unique skill....:D:D:D:D

[exalted512]

ditto

I mean, that is such a unique skill....:D:D:D:D
word:D
-Cody

[PoweredByDodge]

the best battery terminals are marine lead terminals. - they're 3 bucks each at pep boys -- they're nothing fancy... the heavy lead ones with the wing nut screw on them

why?

they don't rust.

lead is one of the only metals on earth that will still conduct electricity even when it has oxidized (lead does not rust - it oxidizes like copper -- a black filmy substance forms on it over time -- that substance still conducts electricity at nearly the same efficiency as lead itself. rust does not) -- i had both rockford and streetwires gold and platinum battery terminals -- they rust out horribly. and you end up with corroded rotted mess that has poor conductivity. good quality terminals with dielectric grease or even brake drum grease slathered on them... held down with a wing nut to a marine terminal -- its the best conductivity you're ever going to get.

... my last word on the fuse and then i'll shut up.

"He said the whole purpose of that fuse has nothing to do with the amp but instead cutting off the power handling capabilities of the wire that it's being fed into the cabin. "

that's horseshit.

if it were the case, then 4awg would have a 60 amp rating when used in most automotive installations.

you will drop roughly 2 volts over the length of 4awg if pumping 150 amps through it to the trunk. -- that means at 12.5 volts (key off) your amps are feeding off 10.5 volts...

at 60 amps - the reccomended maximum current capacity of 4awg over a 15-20 foot run, you'll drop just over half a volt... so 12.5 yields 12, which makes a lot more sense.

keep this shit up and you're going to have people starting fires because they put 200A fuses on 4 awg and thought that just because the fuse said 200A meant they could put a 200A load on the line. at 200A you'd see a huge voltage drop nearing 1/4 of total battery voltage... possibly enough to melt a cheap wire jacket under carpet or in an enclosed area, and cause sparking against the body anywhere within the chassis - in places that are covered with carpet and such - textiles are very flammable, expecially ones with lots of glue and other shit in them. with such a large fuse, there is the definite possibility of multiple repeated sparking before it ever blows... if it blows. painted metal surfaces are subject to intermittent conductivity due to a number of different factors including but not limited to paints that never really cure, thin or worn coats that do provide just enough insulation for arcing, but not sustained conduction.

i'm done on that.

[exalted512]

so you shouldnt run more than 60A through 4awg on a 15' length?

or did you mean something else?????
-Cody

[brettw22]

One last question before I put the order in.......(I hope):

What's the advantage to a fused distro block over a non-fused?

[PoweredByDodge]

fused distro block? -- just another set of fuses to change. if the fuses are very difficult to get at on the amplifier once its in the car, then a fused distro block will aloow you to locate the block in an easily accessible place - so when they blow - you dont have to go nuts trying ot get that the amp -- i have never needed them --- but they look nice i suppose. with one amp - you dont even need a distribution block at all.

--- and yes, i meant over a 15-20 foot run you should not run more than 60 A through 4 gauge.

its not a hard number.. 62... 58... whatever... but roughly 60A. the better the quality of wire, you may be able to squeak a few more amps before you start seeing that big voltage drop - but on average... 60 A.

I'm running about 150A through 4 awg over a 2 1/2 foot length. that's only a 0.2 V drop. but i'm also dropping almost 3/4 of a volt due to sucking sometimes as much as 300A through a single line of 0 awg. the result is dropping about a volt by the time the juice hits the amplifier. but at right around 14 V that means i'm seeing 13 -- so i'm not complaining. and 0.75 volts dropped in the huge heat sink that is a 0 gauge hunk of wire results in a lot better thermal dissipation than 2 volts through a 4 gauge line. i should really be using the twin 0 gauge lines i had before, but i got sick of all the goddamn wire.

[exalted512]

When I'm figuring out wiring and such, I usually look here.
http://www.the12volt.com/info/recwirsz.asp

Lets say instead of 15' it was 16'. Lets say the amperage stayed the same(When in fact it would go down), so 60A of power on 4awg for a 16' length.

According to their graphs, 16' can hold up to 600w when using 4awg, more than that you have to up in power wire size. Then go down to the current draw by power graph where 600 watts is 96A. Thats why I was wondering where you got 60A from, seemed a little low to me.
-Cody

[exalted512]

And PBD is right with the fused distro-block, but some amps arent fused, like my fosgates, this is where they come in handy. An extra level of protection for your few hundred dollars of equipment isnt necessarily a bad thing either
-Cody

[PoweredByDodge]

the 12 volt's chart is fuzzy at best. i've looked at it before and don't agree with it.

one main reason is this -- that "600w" -- is that 600w though a class d amp? or 600 w through a class AB or 600 w through a class A tube amp?

600 through a class a is about 166 A
600 through an AB is about 62A
600 through a class D is about 48 - 50 A

like i said, its fuzzy at best.

the only way to really determine current draw is...

Amplifier output power total all channels driven at lowest load (for the 400.4 thats 100 x 4 @ 2 ohms) -- so 400 watts.

divide that by the effiiency of the amp - use 0.25 for class A / 0.65 for AB / 0.85 for D.

then divide again by 14.4 volts (or whatever voltage the power you used in step 1 is rated at.)

for the 400.4 that comes to a draw of 43 A -- since it's got two 30A fuses, that makes sense and is probably very close to what the real draw is.

the chart to use is then the American Wire Gauge chart. it aims for a drop of no more than 0.7 volts along the line.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

the column to go by is the last one "maximum amps for power transmission" --- not the 2nd last "max for chassis wiring".

chassis wiring in general is considered to be short runs.

for example, inside an amplifier, there are thinner power cables than the 4 or 8 gauge we normally use to hook the amp up. inside, from where we screw the 4 gauge down, there may only be 12 or 14 gauge wire leading to the circuit board. some amps are direct solder terminals, but anywho -- if/when wire is used, its much thinner. these short 6 inch or less type runs are considered chassis wiring. that's why i can get away with 4 awg for 150 A loads of only about 2 feet.

build a house, wire a garage, wire a professional ampitheatre sound system... and you're forced to use american wire gauge electricians guide / fireman's code standards (the table i posted). deviation results in either being sued or thrown off the job-site. it is that way for a reason. the 12 volt is a great resource, but that table is very misleading.

[neomagus00]

well... according to that, a 2kW (class-d) system needs triple-nought cable, which doesn't seem accurate... to me...

[PoweredByDodge]

2kw class d = 160A

0 gauge is rated at 150A ... close enough.

[neomagus00]

2000 W / 0.85 = 2352.9
2352.9 / 13.8 = 170 (yeah, 13.8, but it's more realistic... assuming the 2kW rating is at 12V, this should actually be a stingy estimate... i'm pretty sure...)
that's 00... where i got 000, i have no idea :p

[brettw22]

I had to call Streetwires to ask them a question and while I had them on the phone they said that the fuse rating you want to go with is basically 10 amps per 100 watts of your amplifiers. If you're running 400 watt amp (as I will be) then I should get a 40 amp(they said 60 ANL would be fine) is what I should be using.

I asked why with their single amp kits they have a 100 AGU fuse and with their double amp kits they have an 80 amp AGU fuse and they said that they really can't guess what people are putting in their system, but to use the above calculation to get the appropriate fuse (whether your amp is fused or not).

So......I'm just getting a 60 amp right now and gonna call it a done deal.....

There really does need to be an industry standard on this because this is insane to have everyone saying completely different things......

[MacLeod]

So what youre trying to say is,"Mac and PBD you guys were right all along and I should be flogged for not listening to you in the first place and not taking your word over an Aggie". :p :D

[brettw22]

That's the problem......it depends on who I ask, and surely you know better than for a HA to tell a CA person they know what they're talking about......:D

[MacLeod]

LMAO!!

PM Josh or Thom. They usually dont take sides in arguments like this (I dont blame em either) but theyd probably answer ya in a PM.

All I can say is in 15 years of fiddling with CA Ive never used anything bigger than an 80 amp in my line and have yet to burn anything down........but Im still young yet.

[exalted512]

but Im still young yet.
who told you that lie? ;)
I'll retract my initial statement about having a 200A fuse, but in my experience I've never seen an ANL fuse burn, melt, gets its physical characteristics changed my by melting. Ive seen this numerous times with 80A AGU fuses. But after the site that I linked to it says its more of a problem with the fuse itself than the amperage.

So here is my new and improved statement. Get a 80-150A ANL fuse and be done with it.

and dont ever doubt an aggie<----
-Cody

[brettw22]

I use to live in TX.....and I'm sorry to say that's why I won't ever go back (except for the obligatory visit to the fam every few years)......past that, tx can burn and I'd be ok with it.....:D

EDIT: The 'sorry' was that I had to endure that hellhole, not because I felt bad for not wanting to go back......whew......can't have that distinction not cleared up

[MacLeod]

I loved Texas and consider Temple Texas to be my adopted home town. I lived there for several years and although Chattanooga will always be home, if I had to spend the rest of my life in Texas I would be ok with it.

[exalted512]

i wouldnt really want to go anywhere else
-Cody

[PoweredByDodge]

rule #1 -- i'm not always 100% right, but i'm never wrong... and i'm usually right.

rule #2 -- told ya so.

[PoweredByDodge]

as far as the 2kw amp thing...

the only amp i know that does that kind of power is the sledge hammer and the ck4.0 from zapco. i'm sure there are others, but lets look at it this way...

two 81000d's is what i'm running right now --- at 12.5 volts, they're each rated at 1000 w. they're birth sheeted at roughly 1200w at 12.5v though.

were i to run them both at full power... 2400w / .85 / 12.5 = 225A, then i would have to run 000 triple/0 wire.

when i did have them both going at full power, i was actually using two cables of 0 gauge.

wire gauge size does not "double" as you go down one size.

00 is not "double" 0.

diameter 0 is 0.3249"
diameter 000 is 0.4096"

cross sectional area for current conduction 0 = 0.083 square inches
cross sectional area for current conduction 000 = 0.13157 square inches.

guess what... two individual 0 gauge lines = 0.166 square inches... that's THICKER than 000 gauge.

so yes --- to run 225A you need 000 gauge or two lines of 0 gauge -- and my habits back up my statements.

normally, in the current truck, i don't draw anywhere near that - daily listening habits have peak current draws of roughly 192 A, but like I said, i'm seeing voltage drops, which isn't good. when I try to really bump the thing to show it off (and thus the gains on the sub amps go up up up - and the draw starts to get near that 300 mark) I end up seeing worse voltage drops at the end of the line and you can tell the amplifiers are suffering from rail voltage drop. no amount of capacitance will help that... the current draw is just too excessive.

[neomagus00]

well explained... so what are you going to do to help that crazy draw?

[PoweredByDodge]

honestly - as stupid as it sounds, nothing at the moment.

i had initially been of a mind to make the truck "really loud SQ".

now that i'm still working on building this crossover (i have a final tomorrow and a paper due too - once that's over - crossover building i go), i want to see how it turns out.

if it comes out the way i want it to , then i'll be working on getting the sound "just right" -- once that's done, then i'll blend the subs in. i tune it with the subwoofers shut off at first and then blend them in once everything else is where i want it.

i imagine that with this setup, i will probably be actually lowering my current needs because i'll be using less power (gains lower and lower). i actually found that when everything is working hte way its intended to, and you have a good spectrum and soundstage in a vehicle, less power can sometimes sound "just as loud" as an unbalanced system with no soundtage and way more power.

once i figure out what i want to do as far as that goes, then i can decide if i want to leave it alone or not.

if "not" then i'll just go get another 15 feet of 0 gauge (i still don't know where my 2nd run of it went from before... i think i had cut it up to used it to rewire the alternator to battery - battery to chassis/ground connections for both the new batteries in this truck when i got it) and run a 2nd 0 gauge line back to the main power bus underneath all the capacitors and distro blocks. i would then possibly change the power lines going to the 81000d's from the distro blocks from 4 gauge to 2 gauge.

[exalted512]

so lets say you have an amp that do 2600 watts and is 96% efficient, then you have a 75x6 amp thats about 60% efficient.

Then lets say you were going to run dual batteries and 2 batcaps. Also a good high output alternator. The first battery will be in the engine compartment and the other 3 in the toolbox, all connected with no isolator. The amps will be in the back of the truck, so about 5 ft away from the battery itll be connected to. What size power wire would you run?
-Cody

[neomagus00]

humm... [2600 / (0.96 * 13.8)] + [(75 * 6)/(0.60 * 13.8)] = 196.26+ 54.35 = 250 A = two 0-gauge cables or one 0000-gauge cable... maybe only one 0-gauge bridging the batteries in the toolbox, cause they're quite close...

pbd?

[PoweredByDodge]

240A total draw

side note - just did the conversion for what 0000 (4/0) would be -- 4/0 has the SAME area for current carrying as two lines of 0... so 2 * 0 = 0000 = 4/0 = 300 amp happy.

Assuming high output alt means 250-300A, then you can get away with 00 for the alt stud to battery line (and the matching ground), but you'd be better off with 000.

As far as getting from the 1st battery to behind your extended cab and into a tool box in the bed... thats what, 20 feet or around that?

At 240 A, you'll get a 0.7 V drop through 20 feet of 000.

you'll get a 0.6 drop out of 4/0 or two lines of 0. might as well just do the 000 so its all clean looking, and still cheaper than 4/0.

bridging them batteries / batcaps ... assuming 1 foot lengths between them ... you can use 0 and get a 0.1 v drop per link = 0.2 v drop in addition to the 0.6 or 0.7 drop of the 20 foot line... or use 000 and have no voltage drop. go with the 000, already have enough of a drop.

going from the batteries to the amplifiers... you say about 5 feet... so lets say 2 feet will go from batts to distro block(s) -- use 000. then from distro block to the amp 75 x 4 - you can use 8 gauge, you'll have a 0.2 v drop, or use 4 gauge for a 0.1 volt drop. might as well just use the 4 if you have it around, but 8 would be ok too.

from the distro to the big 2600 watter... use 2 gauge for a 0.2 v drop, or use 0 gauge for a 0.1 v drop.

so basically...

alt to batt under hood = 000
batt under hood to batts in tool box in bed = 000
batts in too box in bed to each other = 000
tool box bats to distro block = 000
distro to small amp = 4 awg
distro to big amp = 0 awg

[brettw22]

So anyway......back to me....... ;)

I ordered all the CarDomain stuff and it should be arriving the week of the 19th and maybe I can install it by Christmas....but maybe not.

The Pioneer should be here within a week and a half.

The Speakers and Amp are here and ready for those things to arrive so I can get it all installed......then it's a Merry Fuckin Christmas to me.......WOOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!

[MacLeod]

Outstanding! Welcome to the sickness!

[exalted512]

where do you pick up 000?
-Cody

[PoweredByDodge]

that's a good question cody - where to get 3/0 ...

it's not as thick as some ppl might think -- i mean... it's not like a big old hunk of shit the size of your arm or anything. usually it's used for industrial power lines (like in factories to wire up presses and huge shit that picks up cars and crap). they had a ton of it at ford -- 0000 / 000 / 00 / and 0 made up just about every wire in that place -- i was tempted to "aquire" some of it -- they would just throw out 10 and 15 foot lengths because they'd buy big spools of like 1,000 feet at a time so what was at the end of the roll went in the trash - but employees can't remove trash because "even the trash is property of the communists that run the joint".

but alas - here you go

3/0 welding cable - same as power line -- they call it welding cable because dudes who use big ass welders need this shit --

http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--3-0.html

that's 3/0 at 100 feet for 160 bucks available in red and black only... 1.60 a foot is CHEAP.

they're 4/0 is almost as cheap , its less than 2 bucks a foot dude...

shit is high stand count too - very flexible - looks to be at least 2000 strand, plenty good for DC power use.

the ring terminals are also available from those dudes - its like 50 bucks for 25 ring terminals... with all the connections you'll be making you miht as well get the 25 pack because you know you're gonna break one or two of them in the big ass vise(vice? or vise?) when you crimp them on -- if you got one of those industrial crimpers that'd be better... but a big gigantic vice will work too.

look up welding cable anywhere and you can find some other suppliers. you're big problem is goig to be finding a distributiohn block... unless you just go with a simple disto block that's just got a hold down bolt (so you could use ring terminals). but if you can't find a 3/0 or 4/0 distro block then get a good 0 gauge one and just cut some of the "hairs" off the end of the 3/0 or 4/0 when you shove it in... tighten it down real good and forget about it --- dropping from 3/0 to 0 gauge for 1/10th of an inch isn't going to hurt jack shit. you might want to go with one of those non waterproof ring terminal style fuse holders under the hood as well to make it fit --- just put a BIG piece heat shrink tubing over the entire plastic unit when its hooked up and hit it with the heat gun very gently -- like dont blast it - just kinda nurse it and the tubing wll take the exact form of hte fuse holder without ripping... make it nice and waterproof - sure you'll ahve to re-heat-shrink it if you blow a fuse, but u're kinda fucked as far as the size goes, and i dont think anybody's gonna give you shit when they see that heavy of apower cable - the'yll probaly just drool.

[PoweredByDodge]

oh - one more thing...

it's not a requirement, and people will probably disagree with me, but if you're running that much power, i do highly reccomend that you fuse between batteries.

use something like this...

http://www.cardomain.com/item/LITBANL1 (10 bucks a pop - the non-wateproof screw down with a snap on cover ANL unlimited wire size ring terminal fuse holders).

between each battery (only on the positive obviously)... with like a 300 A fuse -- you're going to be drawing 240 - 250 - and if you try to juice that puppy to show it off and your amps are underrated at all, you'll be drawing more -- 350 might be high - i wish they made like a 325A fuse cuz that would be perfect.. i dunno - start with 300's - if thy're popping and you're SURE that nothing is wrong with the wiring, then bump up to 350's. little trial and error.

anyway - reason i suggest fusing between batteries (and if batcaps have the ability to output current anywhere near the way batteries do then i suggest you fuse between them the same way you would a battery) is that a cell in a battery can go bad at any time when placed under extreme load like that... and you never really know what's going to happen... it may just die... or it may try to "recharge" itself constantly and suck a shitload of current from your alternator and other batteries/batcaps damaging your batcpas/batteries/ and possibly thealternator ... in my truck i've got the alternator + stud going to two 0 gauge lines... one line is fused and hooked to battery #2 -- the other line is fused and hooked to battery #1 -- so the batteries are just tied together... but each has a fuse to protect it from the alternator and from each other. I would have just hooked battery 2 right up to battery 1 - but they're on opposite sides of hte engine compartment and the alt is in the middle so it was less length of wire to just make them meet at the + stud of hte alternator. (god bless the diesel battery holder that fits in the pass side).

hey ahve you thought about that?? about gettin a dieselbattery holder for your truck - if the body style is the same for the HD and the regular trucks then you can probably pick up a diesel battey tray for theother side of the engine comparemtn for like 20 to 30 bucks (mine was like 25 i think). should bolt into existing holes and shit - you might ahve to replace your air box (i duno if u got one there or not) with like a K&N filter that just bolts to the throttle body or even a round dish air cleaner (i bolted a 12" KnN round cylinder lookin element to the "snout" of the plastic cover over my throttle body and ditched the air box) but then you could like put the bat caps in the cabin with the amps cuz bat caps don't have acid or anything in them right? i think they just have a dielectric if they're a 100% capacitor built type thing (like some kinda super-cap)... it's worth investigating dude - but find out ifthe bat caps are lead-acid (like regular battery) based first - if they are then i wouldn't put them in the cabin, fumes and shit could knock you out - even if they're sealed like optima yellow tops, you never know what could happen, last thing you need is to pass out and crack up the truck.

[exalted512]

how do you do your calculations vince? according to mine, if im using 0awg, drawing 350A going over 25 ft of wire, ill only be dropping 0.84V
-Cody

[PoweredByDodge]

way to lazy to do them by hand... i was using the calculator that is below the gauge chart from that site i liked u to -- http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

if you scroll down, you enter wire material (copper) ... gauge you're using ... type of power (click on "12V DC or 1-phase AC" ... one way length from batt to amp ... and then click on "calculate" -- it'll spit the answers out for you.

[brettw22]

Well the Deck arrived......now just waiting for the amp kit and all the stuff from CarDomain then I should have the system installed next week........

[MacLeod]

Glad to hear it brother. Now for the hard part, the waiting.

Thats the biggest drawback to CA compared to HA, when you get your new toys you cant just plug em in and play! ;)

[amulford]

Why would you want to put that MP3 sh!t through those nice speakers???

Street wires is the way to go. If you plan aon another amp later on, be sure you size the main power cable accordingly... I have some 1/0 in the truck. :cool:

[PoweredByDodge]

who is this turkey?

[amulford]

Just another HA nut who went a little over in the 12 volt...

[Jstas]

who is this turkey?

Dude, don't bag on Anthony. His shit is the real deal! I should know, I spent 14 hours in his garage installing it with him!

You'd have seen it and those pretty Soundstream VanGoghs if you came to the PolkFest instead of breaking yer Dodge!

[PoweredByDodge]

and those pretty Soundstream VanGoghs

... those amps are beyond pretty. Soundstream really had it all goin good for a while there. Phenominal power, great specs, absolutely wild cases that were pieces of artwork (rather than just neon lights and crappy 'tuner' effects).

Breaking my dodge is inevitable... if I don't break it, it'll break itself. It's the law of shit.

Shit (law): a thing that shall, regardless of condition, circumstance, or any stimuli, break down - fall apart - or turn to crap. Often describes Dodge trucks and Compaq computers.



.... So what's this dude runnin in his car/truck. The only big install you did that I ever heard of was your Lightning. What else have you been bringing to life?

[amulford]

Well, I've got a Kenwood EZc 500 HU with a Sirius tuner.

A pair of MMC 6500's in the doors and a pair of Sound dynamics 5 1/4 fullrange in the rear pillars. Those are being pushed by a Soundstream Van Gogh Series VGA 500.4, around 125 WPC @ 4 OHM.

Then I have 2 MM2104 DVC's in a twin sealed box getting pushed by Soundstream Van Gogh Series VGA 800.2 right behind the seat.

All of the wiring, connectors and power distribution is by StreetWires. Shielded twisted pair IC's, and this Pretty ass 12 GA. blue and silver speaker wire. Main power is fed through a 300 amp fuse and 1/0 power cord to a D-block which breaks it out to two 4/0 feeds through twin 80 amp fuses. Grounds are seperate 4/0 runs.


It sounds pretty good... :cool:

My only bitch is it dims the hell out of the lights when I'm kicking it. I have to put in some stiffening caps.

I have John to thank for the system, he did all of the research for me and stuck with me for the install. He was at it for 14 hrs. I was at it for around 18.

I've been bitten by the upgrade bug, though. Stay tuned...

[PoweredByDodge]

the EZ-500 is a really nice deck - i had considered it and even though the version i was looking at only had 2 pre-outs i still wanted it becuase of the cool looking knobs. (actually i forget whether it was that it had 2 V outs or that it only had 2 instead of 3 outs -- one or the other). I ended up with an Kenwood Excelon 601 (i think thats the number). very similar features, but without the tuner (alraedy had an outboard tuner).

the upgrade bug can be viscious - but try not to fall victim to it... sometimes you have what is "perfect" and don't realize it until you gut your gear and put something htat you think is better in, but actually turns out to be not as good as what you had. it sounds like you have quite the well rounded system there. If anything, adding toys rather than changing things may be the kind of upgdrade you are looking for (ie. EQ).

[amulford]

I can appreciate that. I'm in the process of building a sick two channel home rig... :D

No, I think the electronics are fine. I think I'll be upgrading speakers and adding an amp to bi amp everything. probably add stiffening caps to save the alternator and go with a HO alternator. Since i will only have Polks, there's only one way to go... :cool:

[MacLeod]

Are you running the stock battery Anthony?

If so, you may not need a cap. A good battery upgrade would be a much better solution. Something like an Optima Yellow Top.

[amulford]

Cool, I never liked the idea of caps. Something about having three farads of juce waiting to light your a$$ up while your working on it...

[PoweredByDodge]

3 farads really isn't much - i've got 3 farads in my hunk of scrap and while it looks like a big ugly mean thing, its not as dangerous as any might think.

caps have their purpose and place, and to be quite honest - even if the system drew 100 amps, and the rest of the vehicle drew 60 amps, and you had an alternator that put out more than 160 amps, and you had two big old deep cycle batteries... a certain amount of capacitance would still be necessary.... why ? because THAT situation is what its actually intended for. cha ching.

gnite

[Jstas]

Actually, they are Image Dynamics 5 1/4 inch speakers in the rear. They aren't marketed as full range but they do have a very wide response range. That and the phase plugs give them a fairly wide soundstage so they aren't easy to localize. Perfect for rear speakers. They seem to have a very similar voicing and construction to the MMC series so they worked out great for his deal. They were a bit of a pain to get mounted but once we got them in, everything was good.

[brettw22]

Holy $HIT are those ANL fuse holders big.........I didn't really look at the measurements and had I done so I probably wouldn't have gotten anything this large......oh well.

I got all the stuff that I ordered (also got some blue/silver Streetwires speaker cable, battery terminals, grounding plug, firewall grommet for my 4awg amp cable, and some headlights.

I'm off to Tweeter to get the write-up for the install and hopefully I can get it in this week to have it done..........wish me luck.

[PoweredByDodge]

ahh good ol' ID...

[amulford]

Actually, they are Image Dynamics 5 1/4 inch speakers in the rear. They aren't marketed as full range but they do have a very wide response range. That and the phase plugs give them a fairly wide soundstage so they aren't easy to localize. Perfect for rear speakers. They seem to have a very similar voicing and construction to the MMC series so they worked out great for his deal. They were a bit of a pain to get mounted but once we got them in, everything was good.


I stand to be corrected. Image Dynamics is right. You know, I should have known that, I still have the box with the extra connectors and fuses in them.

Brett, you're gonna dig it, man. Nothing like good tunes in the vehicle... :cool:

[PoweredByDodge]

i didn't know john liked ID stuff... its high quality gear though -- i used to have IDmax subs -- crazy wild stuff. their chameleon components are sick too.

[MacLeod]

Holy $HIT are those ANL fuse holders big.........I didn't really look at the measurements and had I done so I probably wouldn't have gotten anything this large......oh well.

I got all the stuff that I ordered (also got some blue/silver Streetwires speaker cable, battery terminals, grounding plug, firewall grommet for my 4awg amp cable, and some headlights.

I'm off to Tweeter to get the write-up for the install and hopefully I can get it in this week to have it done..........wish me luck.

Damn bro! You dont have that installed yet? God, waiting that long would kill me. ;)

Im looking forward to your first impressions.

[brettw22]

Well I just got all the other stuff that I've been waiting for, and the amp kit has an AFS fuse inline instead of the AGU one that was pictured on CarDomain, and also on StreetWires site. The fuse that comes with the kit is a 100amp fuse, with the maximum size they have on their site (SW) is a 150amp. Depending on my mood at the time of install, I might have them switch the fuse housing to the ANL, especially if there's a chance in hell that I come close to deciding to go bigger down the line.

The reason that I haven't had any of this installed was because I was waiting on the amp kit that just arrived today. Irritated the hell out of me too, and I just went to the shop to get scheduled and they don't have an opening until the 29th. SO much for the 'in time for Christmas' install present........damn...

[amulford]

Good things come to those who wait. It'll be worth it.

Shame you don't live near me, we could do it in a day. I have the shop and all the toys, I mean, tools...

[Jstas]

Good things come to those who wait. It'll be worth it.

Shame you don't live near me, we could do it in a day. I have the shop and all the toys, I mean, tools...

Yeah, as long as you don't forget to pull the dome light bulb so the battery doesn't drain and send your amps into protection mode and rack your brain for 2 hours trying to figure out why the hell the shit won't work!

Remember, amps now worky? Try starting the damn truck!

[amulford]

Maybe we should start with disconnecting the battery? He is getting new clamps...

[brettw22]

At what point do people say things like "you should get a bigger alternator" with regard to car audio?

Here in the winter cold ass mornings of Chicago, sometimes it's a good 5 seconds or so before the car will actually turn over and start. It has a battery that is about 6-8 months old, so I don't think that would be a problem......

[MacLeod]

Youll be fine. You have to be well beyond the kilowatt range before you need to be looking at alternators. As long as youve got a good battery, that 400.4 will be just fine on the stock charging system.

[brettw22]

My install date has been changed to the 26th, so that's a good thing....

One thing that I saw on their price sheet is that they charge around $45 for upgrading the stock wiring. If an amp is being installed, they HAVE to replace the wiring, right? I mean, that can't be something they can put in a car and try to use the existing wire, true?

[Jstas]

I have some older, small amps that would not necessarily need to get upgraded wiring but for what you are doing, yes, you need the wiring. Honestly, $45 ain't bad considering what you are doing. The average cost of the kit that you would need to do it yourself can cost anywhere from $35-$65 and I'd be leaning more to the high end since you decided to use ANL fuses.

[brettw22]

Maybe I worded that a bit wrong.....

If I'm being charged a price for installing an amp, they automatically have to put wiring in as a part of that install, right (no charge for running wire)? I'm thinking that they'd only charge someone if they replaced a deck and wanted to keep everything as is, whereas they can't use the wiring from the deck to the speakers when you're putting an amp in the trunk (or under a seat).......

[MacLeod]

Ya know, thats a good question.

If they quote you $50 to install an amp I would think that would cover the wiring as well. Plus, since youre supplying the wiring kit I wouldnt be charged extra for wiring other than labor.

[exalted512]

we charge $65 installation, it includes running the wire, but the wire itself you have to buy extra
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Thats what I thought and since Brett has already bought his wires and cables the shop shouldnt charge him for anything other than labor.

[brettw22]

Oh ya.......they also want to charge me a $10 bench test for every piece they're installing (deck, fronts, rears, and amp) for a total of $40.......seems a little odd to me, but whatever.....

It's because I didn't buy it there and they don't want to install things only to find that it doesn't work. That seems to be one of the first things that they should do before they go and drop everything in the car, but that's just me.

[SportsFan]

Yeah, I've found that these shops will find new ways to charge you a little extra for something. When I bought the Alpine CDA-9847 head unit from Best Buy, they said "free installation", but (of course) charged for a "wiring harness" and "install kit" that came to about $40-45. I paid for both the day I purchased the stereo, and even brought it with me along with the receipt the day I had it installed a couple of days later. They "TRIED" to charge me for those "extras" TWICE....the day it was installed (after I'd already paid for it)! Then, when they figured they couldn't zap me for any more, they added a $5 "shop charge"! So much for "free" installation!

But Brett....when I've called around and asked about amp installation charges, practically every place I have called has told me that they would charge extra for running basic speaker wire throughout the car. The AMP wiring is not extra (from what I have been told), but any other additional "speaker wire" would be....which is fine, considering the extra time and labor that goes into it. I just don't like being told one price, and then getting zapped with any additional "extra" charges that I'm not told about beforehand. $10 for a "bench test" seems about like Worst Buy's little $5 "shop charge"....

[amulford]

Hey, I wouldn't bitch too much about that. At least they are conscientious enough to do it. They could say eff it and put it in, then charge you again to pull it AND reinstall it if it doesn't work. You wouldn't be able to say a damn thing, either. "I'm sorry, but if you had bought it from us, it probably would not have happened..."

[MacLeod]

Oh ya.......they also want to charge me a $10 bench test for every piece they're installing (deck, fronts, rears, and amp) for a total of $40.......seems a little odd to me, but whatever.....

It's because I didn't buy it there and they don't want to install things only to find that it doesn't work. That seems to be one of the first things that they should do before they go and drop everything in the car, but that's just me.


That sounds like a load of shit to me. If they hook it up and it works, it works.

Im losing respect for Tweeter the more you post.

I would tell them to dump the "bench test" bullshit or youll take your business elsewhere. There are too many real shops out there with very talented installers to have to settle for this rip off.

Bench test fee my ass. What a crock. :mad:

Theyre trying to pull a fast one on ya bro. Dont let em.

[brettw22]

I'm going to talk to them about the bench fee test, definitely.....

SportsFan, as far as there being charges AFTER they've charged me for the install (which I'd guess they should/would do BEFORE the work is done) they can kiss my ass if they think I'm going to pay for more stuff that they come up with on the fly.

[brettw22]

I talked to them about the bench fee and they'll cut that in half....

I asked about the wiring and they said they usually tie into the 18awg stock wiring (still don't understand how they do that when they're talking about relocating the amp section basically). Basically, it'll be a $45 charge to upgrade it all.....blah blah.

I'm at this point looking about about mid 4 bills for everything (install fees, wiring harness/deck kit, bench test). Little bothered, but they are going to be the one's that remove it all and put the car back to stock when i get rid of it, so i guess it's a bit of a pre-pay on the un-install that they're going to be doing when I sell this car.

[MacLeod]

Well since the job is set for the 26th nothing to really do about it now. If it were a little further off Id recommend shopping around to some other local shops and see what they charge.

Still, the Tweeter guys care competent so you can rest assured the job will be done right.

[cam5860]

Come on yall install it yourself thats the best part of car audio. Installing is what it is all about. Leting someone else install it takes all the fun and hype out of it. I like to know all my wires are neat and tied off. Im not taking any chance on someone else installing my stuff. Cause i know they will not take near as much pride in installing it like i will in my own vehicle.

[brettw22]

I'm not going to tear apart my car and think that I'm going to put it back together right....

I plan on hanging out with them and watching what all's involved to see how it's done.......if I'm ok with it, then I'll consider tackling the next car.....

[amulford]

Believe it or not, it's not all that bad. You do need to have the time, tools, patience, and maybe some help. (<== That will depend on how far you go.)

I thought it was going to be a real PITA, too. We just about stripped the interior of the truck. It did take 18 hrs, but I'd do it again. I may have too anyway. I've been thinking about the BMW...

[brettw22]

The time I probably have.....the patience though, are you kidding?!?!?!?!? lol

[MacLeod]

Actually I prefer installing myself because then you dont have to wait! ;)

[brettw22]

Well, surprises surprises......I'm at Best Buy right now waiting for my car to be installed, but the bill ran up to the $500 mark. Next time, I'll DEFINITELY be looking to install myself, but for now, I've resolved myself to being at their mercy since I don't want to try, and I don't want to wait (any longer).

[MacLeod]

I thought you were having it done at Tweeter?!?!?

So what was the bullshit reason they had for tacking on another $100?

[brettw22]

I wasn't clear.......I'm at Best Buy (waiting for my car to be installed at Tweeter), and wasting the day away here.

The re-wiring charge is $45 per pair, not for the whole car (pisses me off), and the other indicentals are some labor to cut the metal, supports for the amp (going in the trunk on a side (not to the fold down back seat) and a few other things.

I'll take some pics when I get it all installed (though I don't know that you'll be able to see the speaks since we're leaving the factory speaker grilles in place (the plan), but who knows how it'll end up in reality. I'll find out in about 3 more hours......

[MacLeod]

Well its been 4.5 hours. Hows it sound?!? ;)

[exalted512]

when were wiring a cars full range speakers, well take the speaker wire and run it to the back of the deck. Quick and easy. Bad thing is the stock stuff is crap, we charge more to go to each door, but im not sure how much.

We bench check all of our customer equipment before we put it in, but we dont charge a fee. Thats crap. All you have to do is hook up 3 wires for an amp and put a speaker on it, takes no more than a couple minutes.

I was pretty sure you were going to have to cut metal, I had to in the girlfriends 04 civic when i put her SRs in it.

As far as im concerned, best buys free installation isnt misleading at all. Free labor does not mean free parts...

-Cody

[brettw22]

Wow.....what an ordeal.

The amp was installed in the trunk, but not on the back of the rear seat (the Accord has a ski-passthru type of door that eliminates that option. Instead, it was mounted to the rear driver side panel in the trunk which is a VERY good thing. This way, I lose zero trunk space, and everything is tucked neatly off to the side.

The speakers, deck, and amp all look great. Problem: one of my channels on the amp is blown. They tested the wire, interconnects, and different amp channels to confirm that the front passenger channel is shot. It is now completely disconnected and I'm basically listening to everything from the back seat, because my leg practically eliminates the speaker on my driver door (I have to learn to drive with my leg stretched out instead of bent and leaning on the door).

Overall, it sounds great, and has some incredible bass for the channels that are running, but I need to do a few things:

1. Read the manual on the deck
2. Get a replacement 400.4 on the way el pronto
3. Keep myself from trying to push things too hard from the get-go.

The things that the guy didn't end up using were the battery terminals, grounding wire end, and a whole roll of the speaker cable (cable I'll keep). Those other things will be returned tomorrow.

The grand total ended up coming to $530 and change. Here's how it broke down (for those that care or are looking at having it done):

Deck - $45
Speaker wire upgrade (fronts) - $45
Speaker wire upgrade (rear) - $25 (they halved <almost> the $45 charges because the amp is only 5 feet max from the rear deck speaks)
Front and rear speaker install - $80 each
Amp install - $70
4awg wire upgrade - $30 (no idea why they charge more for running 4 awg vs 8, but whatever)
Replace AFS fuse with ANL holder - $10 (at this point I was practically throwing my hands in the air)
Custom labor amp mount - $30 (amp was mounted to cloth covered MDF for support - this one I have no problem with.....it looks good)
Custom labor front speakers - $20 (had to cut the holes wider for the 6500's
Wire harness - $15
Deck kit - $20

Then I had a request to have a 1/8 cord hanging out so I can either plug in my MP3 player or my laptop when I'm on the road. Those charges were:

IPBUS to RCA adaptor - $35 (apparently the 860 doesn't have an aux rca jack)
Belkin 8' RCA to 1/8 mini jack - $20

So, as soon as I get the replacement 400.4, I hav to go back and they'll do an install on the amp and then I should be good to go.

After that was all done, I went to Fry's electronics and bought a new laptop......now I get to spend the night setting that up....it's always something....lol

[danger boy]

you didn't mention the price of the SR6500 X 2 and all the other Polk gear...

who'd you have to sleep with to get all that for free??? :eek: ;)

[SportsFan]

The grand total ended up coming to $530 and change. Here's how it broke down (for those that care or are looking at having it done):

Deck - $45
I'm guessing that either Best Buy didn't install this...or this is the cost for the "parts" (install kit and wiring harness) rather than installation. Either that, or your particular Best Buy wasn't offering "free installation"...."



Wire harness - $15
Deck kit - $20

Oops, well...so much for that....


Front and rear speaker install - $80 each
Wow! Am I reading this correctly??? $80 EACH??? I had front and rear speakers installed for $60 total (both front and rear) in a '98 Accord sedan. Hope that was a typo and should be TOTAL rather than "each"


Speaker wire upgrade (fronts) - $45
Speaker wire upgrade (rear) - $25 (they halved <almost> the $45 charges because the amp is only 5 feet max from the rear deck speaks)
Amp install - $70
This all seems about right....and fairly reasonable



4awg wire upgrade - $30 (no idea why they charge more for running 4 awg vs 8, but whatever)
That may have been the difference in the cost of the wire, since 4 guage is more expensive than 8 gauge



Replace AFS fuse with ANL holder - $10 (at this point I was practically throwing my hands in the air)
LOL...seems kinda like a little "extra" that they "justified" charging you for, but perhaps that is the cost for the part itself (and the part was necessary)



Custom labor front speakers - $20 (had to cut the holes wider for the 6500's
WOW! The 6500's shouldn't need ANY additional "cutting to fit" (according to Crutchfield) if this was for an Accord. I had a pair of db650s which (according to Crutchfield) SHOULD have had the speaker baskets cut to fit for installing in my car, but they didn't cut anything (other than a small sized hole for the wiring, but they sure didn't charge "extra")! I think they may have screwed you here, because I believe the 6500s are supposed to fit an Accord without ANY cutting being required!



Custom labor amp mount - $30 (amp was mounted to cloth covered MDF for support - this one I have no problem with.....it looks good)
Well then what was the "$70 AMP INSTALL" for??? Maybe this is the cost of the materials...who knows.



Then I had a request to have a 1/8 cord hanging out so I can either plug in my MP3 player or my laptop when I'm on the road. Those charges were:

IPBUS to RCA adaptor - $35 (apparently the 860 doesn't have an aux rca jack)
Belkin 8' RCA to 1/8 mini jack - $20
??? Head scratcher. I don't know what to say here in regard to this.....maybe that's perfectly legit(???)


So, as soon as I get the replacement 400.4, I hav to go back and they'll do an install on the amp and then I should be good to go.
They're not going to charge you for ANOTHER "Amp Install"....are they? (I hope not). After all, it's not YOUR fault the part was defective, and you've already paid for an "install"...so hopefully they'll be understanding and have a little heart, and not so much greed....

[brettw22]

I slept with no one, and paid plenty......Somehow in moving with my company, I actually made money doing it.

The install was done at Tweeter, not Best Buy.

The $80 each is per pair of speakers. They charge more for the coax speakers and I did call around and that was about going rate for some of the other shops. Granted, it would have been more expensive if I had them install the tweeter up in the dash with the mid down in the door, but this is ultimately a temp install (1-2 years of further ownership of this car).

I supplied ALL parts, with the exception of the Belkin RCA to 1/8 jack, wiring harness, deck kit, and IPBUS adapter cable.

They aren't going to be charging me for another amp install.....just going to swap the one I have for the replacement. I just have to go back in there when I get the replacement and they'll swap it out and test it (no more than 20 minutes I'd guess).

[SportsFan]

What matters, Brett, is that you are pleased with the installation, think they did a good job and believe that you got a fair price. I know that "labor cost" varies from area to area, and it sounds like you did your homework by calling around, etc. So if you are happy with it, don't mind the cost, and think that they did a good job (that justifies the cost), then that is what is truly important and all that really matters.

Good luck with the "new" amp (LOL) and system, and I hope it all works out for ya. Rock on!!!

[cam5860]

That is crazy to pay over 500 bucks to put that stuff in no thank you. If i did not know how to install a system i shore would be learning if i had to buy the damn book store out. I cannot imagine having to spend 500 for a install. Hell i could almost buy a set of sr's for that price.

[exalted512]

"Deck - $45"
thats what we charge

"Speaker wire upgrade (fronts) - $45
Speaker wire upgrade (rear) - $25 "
we'd do the whole car for like $30, especially if youre doing that much stuff

"Front and rear speaker install - $80 each"
$80 and you had them mount em as coaxials? We install components for $90 anywhere you want, coaxials are $45

"Amp install - $70"
ours is $90 for a 4-channel, $65 for a 2-channel

"4awg wire upgrade - $30 (no idea why they charge more for running 4 awg vs 8, but whatever)"
did you provide a 4awg kit? I dont know where that charge came from.

"Replace AFS fuse with ANL holder - $10 (at this point I was practically throwing my hands in the air)"
was that labor or parts?

"Custom labor amp mount - $30 (amp was mounted to cloth covered MDF for support - this one I have no problem with.....it looks good)"
our charge would have been about the same

"Custom labor front speakers - $20 (had to cut the holes wider for the 6500's"
that wouldve probably been the same for us. If its the same opening as my g/f's civic, theres a lot of cutting involved...

"Wire harness - $15
Deck kit - $20"
wiring harness is the same, our kit is $5 less. You probably couldve gotten both off ebay for about 15 shipped to your house though...

"apparently the 860 doesn't have an aux rca jack"
that is correct

Good think Polk provides that 6x9 to 6.5 adapters, they wouldve charged you for that too.

I'm glad you like it, but damn-they didnt cut you any slack. With a job like that, we wouldve probably had you out the door for under 400, but im not sure how our economies differ.

Glad you like it, just wait til you get the new amp in. Save up some more money and buy another 400.4 and bi-amp em. :D
-Cody

[brettw22]

I think the biggest reason for them charging for EVERYthing is that I didn't buy any of these components from them at all. Had I done so, they probably would have looked past some of it, but I'm not entirely sure. The salesperson, before reconsidering a charge, went out to the installer to ask if it was ok. The guy that had installed my system has been doing installs for somewhere around 25+ years.

If I'd had them mount the speaks with the tweets up in the dash, there would have been a 'custom labor' charge and it would have been more for that type of install comparatively.

I did provide the amp kit, and I just got off the phone with another Tweeter in the area and the guy said that they wouldn't charge any more or less for an 8 vs. 4awg kit. I'm going to follow up on this one with them when I have them replace the amp.

The $10 charge for the ANL was the labor for having to go through the arduous task of cutting the AFS holder out of the cable and swapped wtih the ANL that I had purchased. They ended up being about 3' short on the power cable to the amp since it was in the trunk at the very opposite corner of the car from where the battery was. For some reason they didn't charge me more for the wiring on that one.......I'm a bit shocked.

[Jstas]

They ended up being about 3' short on the power cable to the amp since it was in the trunk at the very opposite corner of the car from where the battery was. For some reason they didn't charge me more for the wiring on that one.......I'm a bit shocked.

They shouldn't charge you. It was thier screw up because they assumed without measuring that the kit would provide enough wire. Add to that the fact that a written quote can be held legally binding. If they already gave you a written statement of the work order and thier standard charges, they are pretty much contractually bound to that statement of work unless an issue arises that goes beyond what is covered by the original statement of work.

Say, for instance, you brought your car in and they were expecting to be replacing a stock stereo but instead they were met with some other loony's hodge-podge of a botched install and the stock harness was all mutilated. They would have to repair the damage done by the pervious monkey before they could verify that thier install worked properly. (If they actually did it that way, some don't care and would install over that anyway) Anyhoo, if they have to do repair work that was unexpected and they already wrote a statement of work, then they can call you, tell you there is a problem, explain it and tell you the extra charges. You can deny the work and at that point, they can tell you to come pick up the car and your gear because it would be a liability for them. However, if all they did was measure once and cut twice and ended up 3 feet short, that's on them and a mistake in thier estimation/installation process and entirely on them to swallow. Then again, 3 feet of power cable costs them a whole what? A buck eighty-nine? Hoo-boy! Somebody go and tell the stock holders that bankruptcy is imminent! But screwing up a measurement in how long the power wire should be, that's covered under the installation and not outside the quoted work statement.

Other than a few charges that seem unscrupulous, I can see how itemizing and charging for each individual job would be a CYA thing for the installation department. That way, they can define a process for each listed task, give a cost and a short description that references those processes on a customer bill and gives them accountability for not only the work done but quality control. It also cuts down on liability issues because if a customer comes in claiming that Tweeter screwed somethig up, Tweeter has an accurate representation of the work done through those defined processes but also has a reference, likely in duplicate or more, of the exact work done. Keeps them and the customer honest.

So yeah, it sucks that they got you for five bills but, when you don't know or are unwilling to do specialized work like that, it will cost you to get someone to do it for you. My install in my truck was quoted by a Tweeter install guy as being roughly $675-800 because I had to build a box and a place to install electronics behind the seat. I saved roughly $720 doing it myself because it cost me about $80 for materials and an afternoon in the garage constructing what I needed to construct. Was it worth it to me? At that price, hell yes! I've learned something in each install I've done and I value the experience much more than any monetary value that can be put on it. Yeah, the first time was hard but I got through it, learned alot and saved myself a hell of alot of money. Installing can be alot of fun but it does require patience and it can test even the most patient person of any of us at times. That's not an excuse to try something yourself. Besides, if something does get screwed up, it's easy to find the jerk who did it, just look in the mirror! Alot less people to be mad at that way too. But hey, if you never try, you'll never know if you can.

[brettw22]

Agreed......had I been looking at the charges as $500+/- I probably would have second guessed the whole thing. What irked me was it climbing as soon as I got there for every little thing that, IMO, they should have had defined prior to my coming to the shop the day of the install. I'd asked about that and mentioned stopping by, and the sales guy said that I didn't have to pay for anything until it was all installed, so no need to come in for a special trip like that. In retrospect, I'd insist on that trip because once the car is in there and being worked on, you're kinda in a weird spot to say I'm takin off.

The amp kit only came with 18' of power cable, and going from front right to rear left apparently it was short so he spliced in some of his cable. There was no fault on them for the kit being shorter than needed for that run....

By no means am I complaining about the work they did.....just seems a little odd the way that they went about it. The installer is the one that, after he'd had the driver door panel off and things starting to be placed, asked me if I'd been quoted everything. When I told him just the flat charges for the fronts, rears, deck, and amp, he stopped, went to the front and wrote out everything and then came back to me.

Knowing that in the next car, I do want the install to be a more show/functional thing than this (where the initial plan was to mount to the back of the seat) I might look at getting more involved myself and trying it.......

[Jstas]

Yeah, that's an awkward position to be in. That's also one of the issues I have with the Tweeter sales staff. they are so bent on making commission that they will leave out things like installation details that they aren't required to list on the sales invoice just to make the price more attractive and get you in the garage bay to get the work done. It's kind of misleading and I know it probably bugs the hell out of the install guys because then they look like the asshole running up the price but again, it's a CYA thing. They have to charge you for what they worked and by the guidelines. It ends up sucking for your wallet but then again, that installer guy has to make a living too. We wouldn't expect our customers or boss to think that we would work for free for them, we shouldn't expect the same from the vendors we interact with as a customer. It just sucks when the vendor/merchant-customer relationship is violated by what seems to the customer as shady business practices.

[exalted512]

Theres a lot of minor stuff that you can do to cut down on costs. Running the power wire and RCAs, doing the radio install yourself, mounting the rear speakers, etc. That in itself would have saved you quite a bit of money and is all very, very easy. I can understand not wanting to take on an amp, but in all reality, a head unit is harder to install than an amp, just doesnt take as long.

And besides, if you need any help you always have the forum...
-Cody