Signal Flow Direction? [Archive]

fox

12-16-2005, 02:53 PM

Not to appear overly stupid here, but I did get yesterday a better interconnect and speaker wire. Just one query here, when it comes to the interconnect between the CD player and preamp, in order to get it hooked up in the direction of the signal flow, wouldn't you connect it with the arrows pointing toward the receiver preamp and away from the CD player? The CD being your source and therefore the signal flowing from the CD player to the preamp? I tried it both ways and it works both directions, just want to have it hooked up the right way.

Thanks..

bobman1235

12-16-2005, 02:57 PM

Those arrows are nonsense.

here's another thread (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30151) on the same subject.

Vr3MxStyler2k3

12-16-2005, 03:03 PM

they flow south... far far south!

BjornB17

12-16-2005, 03:51 PM

they flow south... far far south!

but if you are in the southern hemisphere they flow noth.

HBombToo

12-16-2005, 04:57 PM

The CD being your source and therefore the signal flowing from the CD player to the preamp?
Thanks..

You are correct Sir.

F1nut

12-16-2005, 05:03 PM

Those arrows are nonsense.

That's an uninformed comment.

"Most use the Bruce Brisson design (he designed Monster Cable, then MIT) With these, the shield is connected at the arrowhead end, and not at the arrowtail end. The arrowhead end should be at the preamp because for lowest hum, the preamp should be the only component grounded at the wall, and therefore, you want all currents from the shields to drain out through the preamp ground. This means that the IC connecting the preamp to the amp should also have its arrowhead pointed to the preamp -- so (even though it's counterintuitive) it really has nothing to do with direction of signal flow."

dorokusai

12-16-2005, 05:39 PM

I agree.

It's typically used to show the ground or drain wire for the shield and for some people, that's important, not nonsense.

I've never heard or experienced a difference personally, but I'm not going to launch a crusade about it....it's an arrow, use it, BFD.

madmax

12-16-2005, 05:53 PM

The arrowhead end should be at the preamp because for lowest hum, the preamp should be the only component grounded at the wall, and therefore, you want all currents from the shields to drain out through the preamp ground. This means that the IC connecting the preamp to the amp should also have its arrowhead pointed to the preamp -- so (even though it's counterintuitive) it really has nothing to do with direction of signal flow."

Is this true of the MIT's? It doesn't matter right now because I'm using an integrated but if so I've often had them hooked up wrong when using seperate amps.
madmax

HBombToo

12-16-2005, 05:59 PM

Is this true of the MIT's? It doesn't matter right now because I'm using an integrated but if so I've often had them hooked up wrong when using seperate amps.
madmax

I agree with F1's approach and the primary benefit is the prevention of a ground loop. If there was a loop the additional shielding should help suppress the hum.

HBomb

danger boy

12-16-2005, 06:03 PM

if you hook them up backwards.. with the arrow pointing in the wrong direction.. your music will play backwards.. with satanic messages hidden in the songs. LOL

Where have i heard that before? Hmmmmmm????

LiquidSound

12-16-2005, 06:18 PM

The direction doesn't matter, neither do the types of cables you use. Actually, cables themselves are overrated. Since I stopped using them, I've had no ground loop problems, no hums..and my system sounds much more "airy". My speakers completely disappear sonically. It's a true night and day difference!!

F1nut

12-16-2005, 06:19 PM

Interesting point. I copied that from the other thread because it gave a good example of why cable direction matters, ie., grounding. However, I didn't notice the part about the pre amp/amp direction. I have always run the cables (direction of arrow) from the pre amp to the amp as it is stated in the MIT literature.

"The arrows on the cable indicate the direction of signal flow- the network boxes go closest to the destination. (Reversing the direction will affect the sonic performance of the system!) Twin Terminator boxes are marked "Input" and "Output."

Since the amp's power cord is grounded and there is no ground loop problem, I'll continue to do it the way they tell me.

Somebody want to call Pete at MIT and ask him?

polkatese

12-16-2005, 06:20 PM

heiney9

12-16-2005, 09:54 PM

they flow south... far far south!

Unless you're in Australia, then they flow in the opposite direction...mate

H9

WilliamM2

12-16-2005, 10:11 PM

There is no direction for the signal flow, since it's AC and goes back and forth in BOTH directions.

BjornB17

12-16-2005, 10:19 PM

Unless you're in Australia, then they flow in the opposite direction...mate

H9

LOL look further up the page, and you'll realize that i made that joke already :cool:

;)

HiPerf360

12-17-2005, 02:38 AM

There is no direction for the signal flow, since it's AC and goes back and forth in BOTH directions.

I think a lot of people don't understand this concept, or i have always been misled on the travel of electrons. I have always found there to be no audible difference between quality interconnects. In my experience as long as it has a good conductor and a well braided shielding layer you are good to go.

And as far as speaker cable goes, the power going to your speakers is no different than the AC coming out of the wall (except frequency changes). As long as the wire is large enough for the current levels i've never heard a difference.

Just my opinion though...

Jonathon

BjornB17

12-17-2005, 02:41 AM

i just buy modestly priced cabled because they dont cost too much and look nice enough to not have to hide :)

HiPerf360

12-17-2005, 02:52 AM

i just buy modestly priced cabled because they dont cost too much and look nice enough to not have to hide :)

I would have to agree with you on that point... must be a well manicured installation, and good cables routed correctly help that tremendously.

F1nut

12-17-2005, 03:05 AM

It would be pc for me to say, "I don't know if you guys that can't tell a difference are the lucky ones or the unfortunate ones." However, I'm not pc, so I'm going to say you're the unfortunate ones.

HiPerf360

12-17-2005, 03:17 AM

It must be my years of sports car racing that has ruined my ears, but it seems to be affecting my eyes now too... i keep seeing all of these long time members that just want to start shit and not just respond with an intelligent response that can be backed up. If you want to be some professor of audio you cant just go around and insult people, try educating them on your view.

Only the ignorant believe in something without asking questions.

F1nut

12-17-2005, 03:28 AM

My, what thin skin we have. What part of, "I'm not pc", didn't you understand?

If you'd like to do a search here, you'll find plenty of info by many of "these long time members" that have addressed this very topic, in detail, countless times.

HiPerf360

12-17-2005, 03:38 AM

Not thin skined...

Backed up by fact or just the placebo effect?

I am not a very pc person myself, but i do believe in the "golden rule".

TroyD

12-17-2005, 03:40 AM

Discounting F1's sunny disposition :D ...........

I don't see any real differences in terms of substance on either side of the discussion. All anyone can offer in this particular debate is opinion.

I hear a difference in wire/cables. As my gear has improved, I notice it more. If you don't, that's cool too.

BDT

HiPerf360

12-17-2005, 03:48 AM

TroyD

12-17-2005, 03:48 AM

Not thin skined...

Backed up by fact or just the placebo effect?

I am not a very pc person myself, but i do believe in the "golden rule".

Ok, for the sake of argument, why should we buy your argument that all wire sounds the same? Who says the burden of proof is on us to prove you wrong?

BDT

TroyD

12-17-2005, 03:52 AM

I agree hearing the difference in cables, these are just an item with a really bad diminishing return bell curve. I can hear the difference between "good" and "bad" interconnects, but the differences between a $50-100.00 cable compared to a $1000.00+ cable are inaudible.

I agree that wire/cables are a) insanely overpriced b) more susceptible to voodoo and BS c) in no small part due to a, b where the law of diminishing returns kicks in to high gear....

However, you are offering your opinions as facts that would appear to require no corroboration. Regardless if I agree or not, your agrugment doesn't, inherently, hold any more water than an opposing view point.

BDT

LiquidSound

12-17-2005, 03:53 AM

You people are so silly. My findings are SOLID!! Don't use cables and you notice an IMMEDIATE difference. Night and day people...

F1nut

12-17-2005, 03:57 AM

Not thin skined...

Backed up by fact or just the placebo effect?

I am not a very pc person myself, but i do believe in the "golden rule".

Good, we'll get along just fine.

If my ears tell me it's a fact, that's good enough for me. The real question is how does one prove to another that they can hear a difference. I mean, I believe you when you say you can't, but having heard the differences for myself I do feel sorry for those that can't as I really feel you're missing something.

Do onto others as they would do to you. That one? Yeah, I believe in that, she was fun too. :D

F1nut

12-17-2005, 04:06 AM

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but first you say,
I have always found there to be no audible difference between quality interconnects. In my experience as long as it has a good conductor and a well braided shielding layer you are good to go.

And as far as speaker cable goes, the power going to your speakers is no different than the AC coming out of the wall (except frequency changes). As long as the wire is large enough for the current levels i've never heard a difference.
And then say,
I agree hearing the difference in cables, these are just an item with a really bad diminishing return bell curve. I can hear the difference between "good" and "bad" interconnects, but the differences between a $50-100.00 cable compared to a $1000.00+ cable are inaudible.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but those comments seem to contradict themselves.

Have you read the reviews in the Cable Swap Program? In there you will find one I did between $100.00 Nordost Solarwinds and $900.00 MIT S1's. Huge difference in sound quality, IMO.

fox

12-17-2005, 05:48 AM

Well, I think I have my answer now. Really did not mean to get a controversy started on this.

danger boy

12-17-2005, 06:58 AM

it's all in fun... the long timers here have seen and answered every question ever posted about 9,999,999,999,999,999,999 times.. and it gets a little old. so some of us.. just like to flip the newbies some sheite once in a while. it's all harmless.. our bark is much worse then our bite.. GRRRRRRRRRRR!

If you come in here thinking you're all that. and know it all about audio... you may not make very many friends here.. the people who have become a vital part of this forum and participate in it.. have gotten the most out of it. We're all just lovers of Polk Audio products.. that's what brings us together here.

For the record.. i don't honestly know if siganl flow makes a difference or not. I have a couple different cables that show an arrow with the signal flow.. and I hook it up that way. Just today as a matter of fact I replaced a .5 meter Vampire digital cable with a Raymond cable .5 meter digital cable. I don't notice any difference.. but in my mind.. i know it's a better made cable. So it satisfies my need to have better quality cables and wires in my system.

fox

12-17-2005, 07:04 AM

Well, I think I have my answer now. Really did not mean to get a controversy started on this.

fox

12-17-2005, 07:06 AM

Didn't mean to post the same twice either, oh well...thanks for the assist.

BjornB17

12-17-2005, 12:40 PM

You people are so silly. My findings are SOLID!! Don't use cables and you notice an IMMEDIATE difference. Night and day people...

at first i was skeptical with your findings, but I too decided to give you idea a try. Just so i wasnt biased, i had a friend plug and unplug cables while i was listning. First I thought I heard the normal good sound of my Polk speakers, so i figured he didn't change the cable yet. Then suddenly that sound went away! With a difference like this I'm thinking about going cable-free with everything. I'll keep you updated on my findings.

HiPerf360

12-17-2005, 12:51 PM

I said I can hear the difference between good and bad cables, just not the difference between good and gooder cables.

My original reason for the reply was just that all analogue audio signals are AC and signal flow is BS in my opinion. Grounding a third layer of a cable at one end only might have some benefits but that is all in the ear of the beholder.

beardog03

12-17-2005, 01:23 PM

It`s harder to hear the difference between gooder and bestest cables..

IMO, it depends on the user, and the equipment involv-ed..ed..!

I want my King Cobra`s to sound better than my Diamondbacks, but they don`t really..

My MIT S1`s blow them both out of the water though...

jmierzur

12-17-2005, 06:25 PM

Found a reference regarding directional arrows on this page (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/AudioFAQ/part8/).

" In cables where the shield does not carry the signal or ground,
the shield is normally only connected to ground at one end.
In systems where there are significant differences between
ground levels on various components, it may make a difference
which way such cables are connected. Typically, the end where
the shield is grounded should be at the source of the signal.
Often, such cable has arrows on it pointing in the direction of
the signal flow. In any case, try both orientations.

"

amulford

12-17-2005, 06:43 PM

Can we stop this one here. It is up to the listener.

Repeat after me...:

"Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know..."

madmax

12-17-2005, 07:23 PM

Lets face it, some listeners on some gear cannot hear the difference. Not to put down what anyone has because it is not necessarily cost or quality dependent. It has more to do with synergy, what the user is listening for, how good of a listener you are, overall definition of the system and what you are able to hear.
madmax

pjdami

12-18-2005, 01:22 AM

Some interconnects like Kimber Kable don't have arrows on them. What to do then? I got a tip from ezc here on the forum and hook them up in the direction that you read the labels on the ICs. In other words, the flow is in the direction that you read. Interestingly, the labeling on the ICs that I own that do have arrows also follow this "rule."

I just hook them up that way and forget about it. If the arrow is there then I hook it up that way. Bigger things to worry about than "what if I hooked them up backward?"

BjornB17

12-18-2005, 02:10 AM

i'm starting to think that all you people sound funny talking about this. :)

aaharvel

12-18-2005, 02:12 AM

i'm starting to think that all you people sound funny talking about this. :)

you're telling me.
I'm sitting here talking about life on various threads and when i see audio discussions (on an audio forum nonetheless) it's like getting punched with a defibillator :cool:

fox

12-18-2005, 07:38 AM

Appreciate the info sir, always nice to know there is a friendly place to come to just to hang out or ask questions.

madmax

12-18-2005, 10:03 AM

i'm starting to think that all you people sound funny talking about this. :)

We are starting to think you are funny because you are not talking about this. :D

One thing I found when I went to polkfest was quite a few hardcore individuals. I figured it would be just a social thing and was quite impressed by several people who were really into it. My first discussion proved that others had the same interest level I do. I've often talked to people at work etc when people have shown interest but it ends up they think I'm pulling their leg about this stuff. One guy at work asked me how I clean my records. After the quick answer version he rolled his eyes and said uh huh and left. I'm glad he didn't ask about cables! :eek:

madmax

reeltrouble1

12-18-2005, 02:09 PM

YOUr limitless knowledge of bullshit is very impressive.

i AM so close so very very close. Nope, put the lawn chair away. But keep it close.

RT1

reeltrouble1

12-18-2005, 02:37 PM

Ok, after taking several deep breaths, freezeframing.

I would suggest research into thoughts on physiological entrainment of the human body. Then consider how it affects art form, the meshing of science with feeling as well as "placebo".

A place to begin www.heartmath.com, you may find answers. My own personal BS world? Not for me.

RT1

BobMcG

12-18-2005, 03:35 PM

I just love how some newcomers to CP wade in here claiming members here can't discuse a highly controversial subject like this one, as a prime example.

This topic has been hashed over literally dozens of times during the aprox 8 years I've been a member. It will be hashed over dozens of more times in the future.
Many members have brought forth their well structured aurguments time and time again with cable theorys and engineering degrees and just plain years or decades of listening experience under their belts. Is there always going to be the two different camps on this issue (and others like it, IE: LP/CD VT/SS etc.)? Yes.

Some of us have tired of getting involved in a lot of these highly subjective and hotly contested discussions and are content at sitting back and watching the event rather than getting involved. (Like me for one example.) Others are burned out on certain subjects and simply cut to the chase and (correctly or incorrectly so) flip a very quick, short summation of their honest feelings/findings on the matter at hand. Just because this is their response, don't count them out as not knowing what the heck they're talking about. They just may have talked about it untill they're blue in the face. (And I wouldn't doubt there are some in here who've forgotten more about audio than some others know.)

I can remember a time before this new format was developed for the forum (pre-July 2001) this DBS (discussion burnout syndrome) problem was addressed. It was decided then that it might be a good idea that if you were sick and tired of a paticular subject, ignore it. Let others handle it. That's what I choose to do, for the most part. Doesn't make me right and others wrong it just keeps me out of trouble.

BjornB17

12-18-2005, 04:17 PM

I just love how some newcomers to CP wade in here claiming members here can't discuse a highly controversial subject like this one, as a prime example.

Are you referring to me :confused:

HBombToo

12-18-2005, 04:23 PM

The Marketeers of the cable industry are the only gang enjoying life right now.

Me, I have had fun experiencing for myself all(some;>)) of the gadgets the industry brings to the table.

I guess the big question is, should we follow the manufacturers recommendation?

I would like to see a warning on an interconnect box stating, "BE CAREFULL or else INTERNET EMARASSMENT will RESULT FROM non-STANDARD IMPLEMENTATION" ;>)

twin

BobMcG

12-18-2005, 04:31 PM

Are you referring to me :confused:

No. :)

Nor am I refering explicitly to what's gone on in this thread. Rather a small trend I've noticed as of late.

dorokusai

12-18-2005, 06:59 PM

It's a lame discussion, almost every time.

Hey, cable non-believers....chew on all this information for awhile.

MIT Patents/ White Papers & Burn-In (PDF) (http://www.mitcables.com/technology/patents.asp)

Feel free to email MIT (info@mitcables.com) with your point by point counter, to all that information above. If you know so much....challenge yourself....and perhaps you can make a difference.

Is everyone that attempts to improve audio automatically a heretic? Aren't you one if that's the case?

I always get amused by these discussions due to the fact that cables are just one area of this hobby. You must believe in something making a difference or you would be listening to a Radio Shack Boom Box....I bet you aren't.

If MIT wasn't around the Skywalker Sound facility wouldn't exist....sound familiar? George Lucas and MIT have a long standing relationship...guess THX sucks for you as well? I imagine all the master recordings created from that equipment and associated cabling is garbage huh?

If John Curl (http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf#search='grateful%20dead%20john%20c url') never thought it was worth the time to improve audio....MFSL (http://members.aol.com/boardwalk7/mofi/mofi.html) may not have existed....own any of these benchmark Redbook CD's? Burn them if you're so concerned.

He also designed and built the sound systems for the Grateful Dead....ever enjoyed a GD concert? You should forget those memories, if you haven't already. I'll let you figure out how important he has been to Parasound.

If Brad Miller (http://www.aurealm.com/thunder.htm) never thought it was worthwhile to produce the highest quality recording possible...MFSL DEFINETLY wouldn't have existed. In fact, Ambient or New Age music may not exist if he wasn't around...does that get you off?

If Parasound wasn't around, what would have happened to the soundtracks from heavyweights like Lucasfilm, Pixar, Sony Pictures and Universal Pictures? You should stop buying from them immediately if you're so concerned.

Etc, etc.....

This industry is all intertwined, always will be. You can't rail against one thing and not eventually create your own hypocrisy. I don't believe in everything that's out there either, skepticism is important, but if you can't link more than a sentence to prove your point...you're not proving anything.

If that doesn't bother you, rock on....but I'll still be chuckling....and moving on to the next thread.

Happy Listening!

reeltrouble1

12-18-2005, 07:22 PM

Thank you Bob and Doro.

RT1

Tour2ma

12-18-2005, 10:40 PM

Hey....chew on all this information for awhile.

MIT Patents/ White Papers & Burn-In (PDF) (http://www.mitcables.com/technology/patents.asp)

John Curl (http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf#search='grateful%20dead%20john%20c url')

MFSL (http://members.aol.com/boardwalk7/mofi/mofi.html)

Brad Miller (http://www.aurealm.com/thunder.htm)
Aw... F#@K... now there's gonna be a test so I'll have to study over the holidays...
____________________
Tour(Effin' noobs stirring the pot over and over again...)2ma

amulford

12-18-2005, 11:26 PM

See, I just have to laugh.

Hey, it's up to you. If you feel they won't make a difference, they probably won't to you.

However, you must understand that there is alot of R&D that goes into development of these things.

Would you believe that Polk Audio once dabbled in cable? It is true, They once made speaker cables. I have a pair. They wanted to make a better speaker cable for people to use. Do you think they are snake oil (well they ARE called Cobra Cables) Actually they aren't. They stopped making them, they were too pure of a transmission line.

When you get to the point where we are, it is a matter of diminishing returns. The difference is now we are tweaking our sound. We aren't here to make you a true believer. You believe what you want to, it's your party.

PolkThug

12-19-2005, 01:29 PM

...but I'll still be chuckling....and moving on to the next thread.

I chuckle about MIT's burn-in "rule":

"Remember this simple 2/2 Rule: 75% of performance in two days — 100% in two weeks!"

HiPerf360

12-19-2005, 01:29 PM

I think you are missing my point. I know there are differences in cable quality, I was simply stating the differences between good and gooder (<-- this was originally intended for humor!) cable is minimal at best. This thread was not started to argue the value or audible differences between cables but the signal flow direction. Last time I checked RCA connections only had two poles, an inner connector, for the signal, and an outer connector, to shield low voltage signal and complete electrical circuit. So how exactly do you only connect the shielding braid to only one end of the cable as it would just backfeed to the other component? But there is still one concept I cant understand here... audio signals are alternating current so they flow both directions sometimes at tens of thousands of times a second, so how do you optimize a cable to flow better in one direction than another?

Nothing I say should be taken as an attack on your opinions or others, this is simply a discussion board, I'm not an expert by any means, just trying to discuss something I have never understood completely. Directional cables in an AC circuit. (Interconnects or speaker cable.)

jmierzur

12-19-2005, 03:29 PM

Attached is a picture of AR Master (http://www.araccessories.com/Cultures/en-US/Recoton+AR/Product+Catalog.htm?ModelNum=MS230&CatalogNavigationBreadCrumbs=Recoton%20-%20Acoustic%20Research;Premium%20Interconnects;Mas ter%20Series;Audio%20Interconnects%20-%20Master;RCA%20Audio&ProductDetail=YES) cables. They show a cut-away of the cable construction.

They have spiraled center conductors for the signal and additionaly "Two Layers of Shielding: one 95%+ copper braids and one 100% overlapped Mylar® foil". Using this type of cable construction, it is possible to connect shielding only at one end. As you have noted, this would not be possible with a coax cable that has one center conductor and one shield.

F1nut

12-19-2005, 03:54 PM

I chuckle about MIT's burn-in "rule":

"Remember this simple 2/2 Rule: 75% of performance in two days — 100% in two weeks!"

Have you actually tried any brand new MIT cables? If you haven't, then I chuckle at your ignorance.

Vr3MxStyler2k3

12-19-2005, 07:36 PM

You just said chuckle....

teeehheeee

madmax

12-19-2005, 09:47 PM

Have you actually tried any brand new MIT cables? If you haven't, then I chuckle at your ignorance.

I chuckle too.
madmax

polkatese

12-19-2005, 10:01 PM

Can we at least agree that: for 80% of the folks out there, "Signal Cable" class of cables would be the end of their journey, and the other 20% would have gone to no limit? of course, assuming that if I am in the market for a 5 figures $$ gears, I would insist on spending at least 4 figures $$ cables. Why? because I can and I can hear the difference! Ain't life a bitch?

HiPerf360

12-20-2005, 03:13 AM

dorokusai

12-20-2005, 03:19 AM

"Backfeeding" I've never heard this term.

shack

12-20-2005, 10:08 AM

"Backfeeding" I've never heard this term.
And for good reason....It doesn't exist. It must be a neologism.

PolkThug

12-20-2005, 10:55 AM

Have you actually tried any brand new MIT cables? If you haven't, then I chuckle at your ignorance.

I chuckle at what you know you know.

shack

12-20-2005, 11:31 AM

I know what I know and I think I know what F1 knows he knows or thinks he knows, but do we really know? I just don't know. ;)

WilliamM2

12-20-2005, 11:49 AM

"Backfeeding" I've never heard this term.

The term is incorrect, but he is correct that the shielding and neutral are both connected at the same point at one end of the cable (or both), then the neutral runs to the other end. So connecting the shield at only one end is pointless, and accomplishes nothing.

madmax

12-20-2005, 11:52 AM

I know he knows, I've heard his system with different cables. ;)
madmax

Skynut

12-20-2005, 12:45 PM

Funny read.

No input.:D

dorokusai

12-20-2005, 12:50 PM

BlueMDPicker

12-20-2005, 01:00 PM

I know, at least I think I know, I've had experience with the AQ Diamondback. It uses a "drain wire" in its shielding design. If you don't think it makes a difference, put it in the chain on your setup and reverse the flow arrow. I'll be waiting here for a report. *chortle* (sorry, couldn't muster up a full chuckle):

"Diamondback is Triple-Balanced. This means there are three identical insulated conductors, in addition to a separate conductor underneath the 100% coverage foil shield. When used with XLR connectors and balanced electronics, the two positive signals (inverting and non-inverting) and the negative, all get the same low-distortion conducting path. The shield is attached to chassis ground through the case of the XLR, providing extremely effective shielding without contaminating the quality of the negative conducting path. When Diamondback is fitted with RCA plugs, two conductors are used together for the much higher potential across the negative connection, providing a substantial performance advantage. The shield is only attached at one end, providing total shield coverage without compromising the negative conducting path."

jmierzur

12-20-2005, 01:13 PM

HiPerf360,

Since I did not feel like typing a reply, a couple minutes searching found a power cable post in the Cable Asylum (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=27624&highlight=drain+wire+IC&r=&session=) at the AudioAsylum. This will give you the general concept to why only one end is connected.

------

Posted by Sean H ( i ) on July 08, 2001 at 15:02:15
In Reply to: what to do w/ drain wire? posted by blade on July 08, 2001 at 12:32:13:

The drain wire runs along (touches) the foil shield and the drain wire allows for a means to "drain" the shield of any noise it may pick up. Noise is picked up along the shield and the drain wire takes it away. You need to at lest connect the drain wire at the ground of the AC plug right in there with the ground wire. This way all the noise can be drained to ground. You have the option of connecting the drain wire to the ground of the IEC at the other end of the cord, but it's not imparative you do this. Some find this makes for better sound others say it doesn't because it could ill affect the sound of the component in that some noise may make it's way into the component. You might experiment with the drain wire connected or not connected. When I've built the 19364 cords I don't connect the drain wire at the component end.
Sean H

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In my experiences, I have found that there are differences between cables regardless of price due to different conductor/dielectric materials, cable geometry, terminations etc. For example, my latest Harmonic Technology Pro-Silway MkII ICs have different sonic and performance characteristics compared to my cytogenetically treated AR Master ICs. Additionally, all the cytogenetically treated AR Master ICs have different sonic characteristics compared to one pair of untreated AR Master ICs.

According to your post:

“I agree hearing the difference in cables, these are just an item with a really bad diminishing return bell curve. I can hear the difference between "good" and "bad" interconnects, but the differences between a $50-100.00 cable compared to a $1000.00+ cable are inaudible.“

the above mentioned cables should all sound the same as the AR Master cables should fall within the lower end of the price category.

Actually, I envy your situation as not finding differences in ICs removes one component in the overall system equation. This will save you time and money by not having to upgrade interconnects when you decide to improve your system at a future date.

As I mentioned, these are my IC cable experiences. I can live with the fact that you may have reached another conclusion which I trust is based on practical experience. As such, I will not be debating my experiences with you, nor anyone else.

Regards.

steveinaz

12-20-2005, 01:16 PM

I only know one thing, and that is that I don't know anything.

dorokusai

12-20-2005, 01:32 PM

In addition to jmierzurs' cool post...if you connected the ground at each end, it would essentially become a conductor...and thus negate the whole idea of a ground.

Skynut

12-20-2005, 01:54 PM

I for one believe direction makes some sort of difference.
I was told by someone (not worth naming) that the direction only matters for "break in", that the direction is there so once the wires are "broke in" if you disconnect them you know which way to hook them back up or they will have to "break in" again before they sound normal.

I feel that the grounded sheild is a far better explaination. The sheild is there for a reason. (when it's there at all) and grounding it so the noise has somewhere to go.

PolkThug

12-20-2005, 01:58 PM

But does the "noise" actually follow the "drain"?

Blue, your *chortle* made me lol*.

* = a work safe lol, meaning my face and body tensed up as if I was lol, but I didn't vibrate my vocal chords to prevent bothering others.

steveinaz

12-20-2005, 02:09 PM

Giving electrons direction helps them find their way home. Come on folk's this ain't rocket science. :D

WilliamM2

12-20-2005, 02:25 PM

So you haven't taken a grounding class recently then I presume?

Have you? If the neutral wire and shield are both connected at the same point (ground), then BOTH are grounded. Since the nuetral wire is connected at both ends, then the two components share the same ground, whether the shield is connected to both ends, or not.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. The original post was not about power cables, he was talking about an interconnect.

WilliamM2

12-20-2005, 02:32 PM

Hey, cable non-believers....chew on all this information for awhile.

The fact that MIT has patents on their designs does not prove there is any merit to their design, only that they came up with the design first, or were the first to patent it.

If John Curl never thought it was worth the time to improve audio....MFSL may not have existed....own any of these benchmark Redbook CD's? Burn them if you're so concerned.

Have you ever read John Curl's posts over at the Asylum? He believes in the GSIC chip, brilliant pebbles, and several other dubious tweeks. What is you feeling on these devices?

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina27.htm

dorokusai

12-20-2005, 04:05 PM

Have you? If the neutral wire and shield are both connected at the same point (ground), then BOTH are grounded. Since the nuetral wire is connected at both ends, then the two components share the same ground, whether the shield is connected to both ends, or not.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. The original post was not about power cables, he was talking about an interconnect.

Actually, yes. I'm not talking about power cables either. You can't ground an interconnect at both ends, it's simply not a ground anymore.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.<sic>

dorokusai

12-20-2005, 04:07 PM

The fact that MIT has patents on their designs does not prove there is any merit to their design, only that they came up with the design first, or were the first to patent it.

Have you ever read John Curl's posts over at the Asylum? He believes in the GSIC chip, brilliant pebbles, and several other dubious tweeks. What is you feeling on these devices?

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina27.htm

The patents are just one part of that link, read further. I'm not saying that the patents justify the means, where would you get that idea? If you find any other manufacturers that take the time to explain their position on why they build what they do, and explain the reasoning behind it....let me know. There are a couple in this industry, but not many.

I think Brilliant Pebbles are BS and alot of other stuff as well. The fact that he believes in them doesn't detract anything from the real work he has performed. CTC builders has a history with that Virginia based company, perhaps that's where the support comes from.

F1nut

12-20-2005, 05:03 PM

I know this, John Curl and Bruce Brisson know more about audio than any of us could ever hope to know.

If you are one of the non-believers, that's fine. IMO, it's your loss especially if you haven't tried said cable to see for yourself. Bottom line, I could care less about arrows, network boxes, batteries, etc. The only thing that matters are the end results.

PolkThug

12-20-2005, 05:14 PM

I'm following up with MIT about the exact nature of the y-axis % of their articulation response measurements. I feel it is the holy grail of interconnect measurement, and could, in turn, be used to objectively compare other parts of the audio chain. I sincerely hope its not pseudo-science and they can answer my questions.

The articulation response and its measurements as determined by Brisson could explain why two interconnects which both have ruler flat frequency responses, sound different.

*Fingers crossed*

puunda

12-20-2005, 05:27 PM

I've heard many stories about why they have arrows on them. Most salesman would tell you that it's because the material is made so that it works 'better' in one direction - Well anyone with any kind of knowleage can work that one out.
I've heard of this 'shielding connected at one end' story and I must say it makes the most sense so far. I'm not sure if I beleive in the theory though.
I don't believe you can hear a difference in cables. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some cables so bad that it does affect your sound. But I believe cable is such a simple and easy thing to make, it's not difficult to make one cheaply. But that's not why I'm posting.

I don't buy expensive cables for the reasons above. However I have bought and sold a some gear in the past few years. Often they will come with cables. Each time I get some (most will have arrorws on them) I open them up to see if the shielding is only connected at 1 end. I have opened up

Monster CD Standard
Audioqest Jade, turquoise, King Cobra
Straightwire (not sure on model)
VDH Thunderline (although I don't recall seeing an arrow on these)

NONE of them had a shielding connected at 1 end only. In fact, I don't recall the Moster and AQ Jade/Turquoise having shielding at all.

Point is even if the theory were correct, all the cables I've looked at above don't use them. The arrows are simply markings on the cables.

Skynut

12-20-2005, 05:34 PM

You are supposed to hook up the one end and the arrows point you to the other end so you do not get lost.

Simple :D

WilliamM2

12-20-2005, 06:10 PM

You can't ground an interconnect at both ends, it's simply not a ground anymore.

What is it then? When I hook one end of my multimeter to the cable end (outer side of RCA jack) and connect the other end to the case of the component, I get 0 ohms resistance (continuity) at BOTH ends of the cable. It would appear that both ends are grounded, if not please explain.

howie777

12-20-2005, 06:17 PM

OK, let me chime in here. I am an engineer. I do embedded software and have asked about shielded cables with arrows and here is what I was told. (I have worked on DVD systems before, so I was someone involved in audio stuff on a professional level)

The arrow points to which end the shield is NOT connected to (or that is the common way to do it). The reason to only connect one end is to prevent noise that is picked up on the shield in the cable from reaching the amplifier. So in a situation where you have a DVD player connected to a receiver, you want the arrows pointing to the receiver. This way if any RF or other noise is picked up on the shield in the cables it is fed back into the DVD player and to the ground through the power cord and not into the reciever where it can couple onto the audio lines and distort the signal which then ends up coming out of your speakers. This makes perfect sense to me as I have been involved in a lot of EMC testing in my time as an enginner and this happens often in testing. Now if you have a DVD player that isn't designed well, you could end up with the same issue if the noise has the oppertunity to couple onto the audio lines where the DVD player is connected to the cable in which case you have not accomplished much. And the same if the receiver isn't designed well.

So there you have it, a perfectly sound reason to use cables with shields and make sure they are connected properly. Mind you, if there is no noise coming into the system, it makes absoutly no difference, its just a precaution in case of unwanted noise. It shouldn't have anything to do with ground loop, if anything it would make it worse as you are extending the grounds not shortening them. If you don't believe me, well I don't care. I'm right and your wrong! (just kidding :D )

As for burn in, I was told it is commonly refered to as skinning which only happends at very high frequency, as in Gigahertz. Which is well above any audio signal. I tend to believe more of the research that says you simply grow accustom to the sound of new spearker/wire over time and that sound becomes your center from which you judge all else on. So it sounds better because that is what you are expecting to hear. Besides, speakers/cables degrade with time, not get better. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Just my opinion, it is an interesting topic though. And I have been known to be wrong from time to time ;)

Howie

pearsall001

12-20-2005, 06:39 PM

I've got a bow I'll sell ya cheap to go with those arrows!!!!

HiPerf360

12-21-2005, 01:54 AM

The term is incorrect, but he is correct that the shielding and neutral are both connected at the same point at one end of the cable (or both), then the neutral runs to the other end. So connecting the shield at only one end is pointless, and accomplishes nothing.

This is exactly what I meant, sorry for the incorrect term, I was just looking for a word to give more of a visual to those that were not following me on this logic. I am not saying I am right but just trying to figure this out. So lets look at one other aspect of this:

All of my components including DVD player have a grounded electrical system, and all of the RCAs (outer) are connected to the chassis of the unit, the same place as the ground lug of the pre-amp. Now all of these are connected to the same power conditioner, and then they are all connected to all of the rest of the ground wires in my house and this ground bar is connected to two more places: the earth ground and the neutral bar of the house electrical system.

my point of all this rambling is, well... look there is a squirrel!

...all of these parts are connected to the same thing eventually, but the shielding is basically connected at both ends from the beginning.

HiPerf360

12-21-2005, 02:01 AM

As for burn in, I was told it is commonly refered to as skinning which only happends at very high frequency, as in Gigahertz. Which is well above any audio signal. I tend to believe more of the research that says you simply grow accustom to the sound of new spearker/wire over time and that sound becomes your center from which you judge all else on. So it sounds better because that is what you are expecting to hear. Besides, speakers/cables degrade with time, not get better. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

This is what I have always thought, but at this point I don't know what my favorite color is. :confused:

HiPerf360

12-21-2005, 02:06 AM

Giving electrons direction helps them find their way home. Come on folk's this ain't rocket science. :D

Just a thought... Why don't we laser etch the arrow in the shielding wire itself before the insulation is applied, this way it will be easier for the electrons to see them. :p

Sorry for all of the replies in a row... Just a little insomnia.

Skynut

12-21-2005, 11:56 AM

my point of all this rambling is, well... look there is a squirrel!

Exactly.
A cute little squirrel.

beardog03

12-21-2005, 11:41 PM

poo nuggets..

HiPerf360

01-03-2006, 02:48 AM

Just couldnt let this end with "poo nuggets"

But then again it might just be the perfect ending...

END

wingnut4772

01-03-2006, 02:50 AM

Poo Nuggets?...isn't that a new breakfast cereal?

TroyD

01-03-2006, 03:13 AM

hee hee hee!

She said POO-NUGGETS!

BDT

F1nut

01-03-2006, 03:40 AM

A picture is worth......

LiquidSound

01-03-2006, 01:19 PM

A thousand nuggets?

wingnut4772

01-03-2006, 02:28 PM

Ha! :D

Tour2ma

01-04-2006, 01:42 PM

The arrow points to which end the shield is NOT connected to (or that is the common way to do it). The reason to only connect one end is to prevent noise that is picked up on the shield in the cable from reaching the amplifier. So in a situation where you have a DVD player connected to a receiver, you want the arrows pointing to the receiver. This way if any RF or other noise is picked up on the shield in the cables it is fed back into the DVD player and to the ground through the power cord and not into the reciever where it can couple onto the audio lines and distort the signal which then ends up coming out of your speakers. This makes perfect sense to me as I have been involved in a lot of EMC testing in my time as an enginner and this happens often in testing. Now if you have a DVD player that isn't designed well, you could end up with the same issue if the noise has the oppertunity to couple onto the audio lines where the DVD player is connected to the cable in which case you have not accomplished much. And the same if the receiver isn't designed well.

So there you have it, a perfectly sound reason to use cables with shields and make sure they are connected properly. Mind you, if there is no noise coming into the system, it makes absoutly no difference, its just a precaution in case of unwanted noise. It shouldn't have anything to do with ground loop, if anything it would make it worse as you are extending the grounds not shortening them. If you don't believe me, well I don't care. I'm right and your wrong! (just kidding :D )

As for burn in, I was told it is commonly refered to as skinning which only happends at very high frequency, as in Gigahertz. Which is well above any audio signal. I tend to believe more of the research that says you simply grow accustom to the sound of new spearker/wire over time and that sound becomes your center from which you judge all else on. So it sounds better because that is what you are expecting to hear. Besides, speakers/cables degrade with time, not get better. That just doesn't make any sense to me.I seldom post long quotes, but I thought this reply deserved a little recognition as it got zero above...

Thing that gets me is that all audio devices step up the gain on the audio signal to some extent, so it seems that the place a given level of noise can do the most harm is where the signal strength is lowest. Howie, you mention design qulaity as a consideration, but what is inherent in an amp that makes design less of a consideration there?

PS: Jesse, I think we've found your future avatar... :D
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