View Full Version : ? for mantis-or...anyone
05-04-2002, 11:35 PM
mantis-or any one "in the know" more than myself.-if running 12 awg to all the polks,in the act of stripping/soldering the ends-1 or 2 strands become detached from the (core of strands)-will this affect performance/soundstage/etc.?
thx in adv.
(btw is "mantis" in any way connected to Jack Kirby "the king of comics" villian,from the 4th world series?)
thx in advance! CHEERS! jefff
05-05-2002, 12:28 AM
Well if a few strands make a difference, then It would probably take me about 4 hours just to fit bannana plugs to a pair of cables. The Monster MC I'm using has about 175 strands woven together- I can't imagine one or two at the end making any difference whatsoever. Plus when you're terminating/crimping the cables, you're totally changing the medium the sound travels through, for example going from copper to gold. So if you loose a small strand right before that change it shouldn't do much, becuase the whole thing is about to change anyway.
Norm E. Dickey
05-05-2002, 03:44 AM
in regards to soldering...I've read that heating copper wire causes the copper's molecular structure to crystalize, creating barriers, which add impedence to the electons path. I then stick to crimps and twist lock types of connectors. Any takers?
05-05-2002, 07:05 AM
I dunno about the soldering thing....but as far as the original queston goes...if you can hear a difference you must have dog ears. I wouldn't worry about it.
05-05-2002, 09:32 AM
if you can hear a difference you must have dog ears. I wouldn't worry about it.
That's a no-****ter!!:lol:
05-05-2002, 09:41 AM
thanx for all your replies!
hope the solder issue isn't true-as i tin the very tips,maybe 1/4"
just to keep the ends from fraying, i use bare wire connections all around (except where i bi-wire the 3 fronts on my receiver, 1 set bare wire thru the binding post,second set term.w/dual ban.plugs)
:D CHEERS! jefff
05-05-2002, 09:46 AM
To a degree.Becarefull when you strip your ends.One or 2 won't make much difference but any more will.
The Soldering is also true,you burn the end of the wire and change Impedence.This is also very small.
The best way to terminate a speaker wire end is crimping,and twist locks.
Take youe 12gauge wire and pick up some Banana end's.The crip kind is what I use personally,and professionally.Use high quality stripper's, they have a less chance of cutting the wire.I also reccomend using heat shrink tubing to cover your exposed wire to connector end,leaving only the tip exposed to the outside world.
Monstercable makes all kind of nice end's,so does WBT.Even radioshack has a good selection of ends and heat shrink tubing.
I just love making speaker cables.
05-05-2002, 12:56 PM
Does anybody know for sure if soldering changes the molecular structure? I've wondered about this in the past. One way to avoid this is to use a heat sink when you're soldering. If that would prevent the structure of the copper from changing, I would think soldering would be the superior method. Don't most fancy speaker companies use silver solder to attach spades or bananas?
Norm E. Dickey
05-05-2002, 03:38 PM
but HOW they solder may be a better discussion. Hot ot Cold style? Hot soldering is when you heat the wire to the temperature required to melt solder, then put the solder on the wire and let it flow into and between the fillaments. Cold soldering is heating the solder and then applying it to the connection as more of a coating. Obviously hot soldering would have more impact on the integrity of the wire than the cold style. Aaron makes the good point that audio quality solder is Silver, while typical solder is lead/tin. I'm not sure of the melting point of either type, but it would be interresting to know to see how much it heats the copper wire.
05-05-2002, 06:33 PM
soldering if fun, nessary at times.Silver solder is the way to go.Cold soldering is how I do it.I heat the solder on the iron and then place it on the wire or wires to fix/mend or what ever I'm doing.
05-05-2002, 06:42 PM
Hot or cold, whatever, just make sure you use a solder with 4% silver content, most on the market are 2% or less. As far as I know, WBT brand is the best out there.....
05-05-2002, 08:28 PM
thx.agn.for all your replies!
quick ? - i prefer bare wire term.-where poss. - this soldering thing has turned me off to that route:(
if i strip off apx. 3/4" then...(after tightly winding strands 2gether) i use electrical tape on apx. 1/4" of the very tip of the cable strands-
(just 2 get it thru the bind post,w/out unravviling the strands)
would this be o.k.,and could i leave that piece "o" tape there with no ill effects?
i thank u all in advance agn!
CHEERS! jefff-mantis what about the kirby ?
05-05-2002, 08:35 PM
You can do that.But putting on end's with shrink wrap tubing protects the bare copper from oxidition.This is a bad thing for bare wire over a period of time.
Not to mention that ends just look so much cooler.
05-08-2002, 05:17 PM
heat changes impedance... basic chemistry... enough to notice???
If you can hear a difference you must have dog ears. It can't be said any better than that.....
Shrink warp good . Oxidation BAD. 'nuff said.
05-08-2002, 09:21 PM
Your posts have been helpful to me in the past and are always on point... finally my chance to help you.
I'd like to address the question as to whether or not soldering changes the molecular structure of copper...
The answer is - it can, but it won't necessarily. What I mean by this is that simply heating copper will not alter the molecular stucture unless the heating facilitates a reaction with some other species - oxygen for example. Red hot copper will react with oxygen to for cupric oxide, and this by definition is a change in its molecular structure. This is just one of many reactions that could potentially take place.
Norm suggests that heating copper causes it to 'crystallize'. This is inaccurate. Metallic copper is already in a very ordered crystalline state, and barring any reaction with an outside source even if copper were heated to its melting point it would still recrystallize upon cooling to it cubic close packed arrangement of atoms, but not any differently than it was before heating unless some other reaction takes place.
I do know this for sure. Finally, gettin' the Ph.D. in Inorganic Chemistry pays off! :D :D
Now, as to whether you can hear a difference in a speaker wire that has been soldered?? I seriously doubt it, but I don't know that for sure... maybe there are some people who do have dog ears!! :p
05-08-2002, 09:57 PM
That was an interesting post.
The question can you hear a difference.......can be answered by most people if not all the people on this forum that has made there own wires.
I for one are not a fan of soldering the end's.I personally perfer the crimp style.I don't believe in bare wire........I don't want the possibility of altering my sound if I can avoid it.
Soldering isn't a bad thing if performed correctly.You don't to add resistance to your wire.
Making custom wire's bring's you closer to your system than just buying cables(listen to that bull**** I pulled out of my ass).
Stripping wire back is also an art.Done correctly.Cut up the end and loose signal.
I find these thing's to be fun.I buy premade wire, and I enjoy making wire.After some experience in making up cables, it tends to be more rewarding when they make a difference for the better.
I think thats what I was getting at.
05-08-2002, 11:11 PM
Thanks for the info, David! I've only taken an intro Chemistry course (with lab) and one Material Science course, so I'm far from an expert on molecular structures. The two guys I live with are both Chemical Engineers, though.
05-08-2002, 11:23 PM
Now if only you, Russ and I could get people straightened out on what bi-wiring is...!!:lol:
05-08-2002, 11:25 PM
Now if only you, Russ and I could get people straightened out on what bi-wiring is...!!
Yeah, like that's gonna happen! Bi-wiring/bi-amping has to be in the top 3 most frequently asked questions. Ugh.
05-09-2002, 08:31 AM
Teaching people on Bi amping or bi wiring isn't that impossible.
Dificult but not Impossible.
Those subject's come up alot.
Bi amping=2 amps running one speaker with seperate wires to the binding post's with jumpers removed.
Bi wiring=1 amp running one speaker with 2 set's of wires running from the amp to the speaker's binding post's seperately.Removing the metal/gold jumpers.
Thats about it.
You can change it around/twist it up,opinionate it,customize it,do it, feel it,play with it.Have fun with it,but thats about it.
05-09-2002, 11:21 AM
Agreed Mantis, but why is that so hard for people to understand?
I think that it's because the majority of people don't know (nor do they wish to know) how their equipment actually works and why it works that way. When things are simple this works fine, but the least bit of complexity fries people's circuits.
05-09-2002, 09:42 PM
The fear of the unknown,the quick and easy way,overthinking,over teching............who know's.
I will fill you in on some of my background to help anyone with simplisity.
I have studies music just about all my life,since I was 9 years old.32 now.I have been into home stereo since I was 4.My Grandfather bought me my first record player.Since then I have built for myself many different setups.Home theater came arond in the early 80's and I had to have it.I had one of the first Poineer home theater receiver's.Before that I used to hook up my vcr to my stereo receiver in my bedroom.
It has been my hobbie just about all my life.I love it,Star Wars was my video add on in the 70's.I just had to have those movies when they came out on vcr.
I for the last several years have been doing Home Theater, multiroom audio,networking,whole house music,video,automation,and even 2 channel stereo,for a living.I have learned so much in the field, working for different companies,meeting so many engineer's,and people from audio/video companies.
I have tested and set up just about everything under the Sun.Test test test I have done more than enjoyed my hobbie.Testing was my hobbie for years.I was extremly technical.(Technology was/is my life).I still am to a point.
But to really enjoy this wonder hobbie......keep in simple.
Learn one step at a time.Then move on to the next task.Slow is the best way to go.It has taken most of my life to know what I know today(mostly useless Info untill I can unload it on someone who could use it).
I think everyone wants the short road.The easy way.Trail and error has a lot of meaning to me.
I know money has a lot to do with it as well, but as all hobbies do cost money, some more than others.
Today as I have for years try to help others with there system problems and have learned from them as well.
So for all you young guys at this............READ YOUR MANUALS.Take your time with your new receiver.learn all you can before you spend your money.
DON'T WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT THE TECH STUFF.Learn how to use it and why slowly, youll get it.It just takes time.
As for me alot of time it took to learn....and still do everyday.
05-10-2002, 01:42 PM
After working in the electronics field for 20+ years From tubes to ICs. One thing for sure about soldering is that cold solder joints do not flow current as easily as a "hot" joint will. Soldering iron will not get hot enough to hurt copper. Now the insulation is another story. Silver solder is the only way to go. lead will oxidize over time when exposed to oxygen (air). Cold solder joints will have a tendency to trap air in small pockets, Cold joints will deteriorate over time.
Crimping is the better way to go on speaker wire.
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