LSi's and Onkyo

[kmartin971]

I have recently been serching for a receiver. I eventually elected the Onkyo SR803 to replace a yamaha 700 series receiver.

The increase in performance is amazing.

In fact, I talk with both Yamaha and Denon customer service reps and told me to stay away from their receivers because they were not made to handle the 4 ohm load. A rep from Denon actually sugested going to Onkyo or Marantz. I am glad he did! :)

By the way, all discusssions I had with Yamaha, Denon, HK, and Onkyo were confirmed with a polk rep prior to making the decision to go with the Onkyo. It pays to do your homework.

I can not wait to upgrade again to the TX-NR1000!

The Onkyo and LSi match sounds significantly better than the Denon and Yamaha setups I tested at Tweeter.

[cammrit]

kmart,
Are you serious that Onkyo will drive that LSi package. I just received the exact speaker config as you except I have little LSi15's instead :). I am attempting to get mine hooked up right now but have been warned about the massive power requirements of the speakers especially with the 4 Ohm load. How long have you had the reciever hooked up?

Cammrit

[kmartin971]

You can go seperates and spend lots of $$$ I have done extensive research in this. If you are not going with seperates and are going with an AVR receiver go with Onkyo or Marantz.

I am a big Yamaha and Denon fan both they do not work well with 4 ohm loads. I have confirmed this with tecnical reps from both Yamaha and Denon. I have also read all owners manauals for all top receiver from Denon, Outlaw, Marantz, Yamaha, and HK. After all this research I am exhausted but very happy with my selection for under $1,000.

I had a Yamaha 700 series hook up the the LSi and at full power the speakers were not returning what I had experienced when demoing them at the store, with the change to the 803 they now sing!!

[Dennis Gardner]

The 15s are harder to drive than the powered 25s.

Be careful with multi channel music driven hard with any receiver. Music is much harder on the power supply of a receiver than a movie since all channels can have full sound for long periods of time instead of the occasional explosion or loud passage. More receivers than we care to mention, here on the forum, have gone into protection mode trying to drive the LSi series.

[kmartin971]

i am going to test the new receiver with music tomorrow night. I do not expect a problem with the 803 after talking to the Onkyo technician.

[Zero]

Heres the thing.

The transistors Onkyo uses are good down to 3.2 ohms on average. The transformers are ok and are honestly one of the weakest links in the design. An higher end Onkyo (with the bigger transformers) can handle 4 ohm stable loads in two channel direct mode fairly well. You will however, run into issues when driving all 4 ohm speakers when you decide to push the receiver very hard over extended periods of time. Even HK amps, which are tremendously better in terms of power, can suffer the same fate, especially on DTS discs which sport much greater dynamics.

I am not trying to punch out your joy here - just giving you some fair warning that the 803 has its limitations....

[kmartin971]

Zero:

Valid post if I were supporting enough sound for small auditorium! :)

[VR3]

I must just push my speakers hard....

But I run out of juice with a seperate amp and 300 watt 6 ohm speakers when Im REALLY rocking out for short periods of times.

One thing you learn FAST in this hobby...you can NEVER have enough power. Or should I say, current.

BTW, if I was a manufacture, OEM, talking to a guy that probally dosnt fully know what speakers you're talking about or anything - and you're sitting there and just asked him... "Hey, will your receiver push my speakers?" - That guy is going to automatically say, YES it will, and he's not lieing to you. While the receiver can push your speakers, it will NOT be to their potential that they possess.

There are not many receivers in that price range that can adequately drive the LSi line.

[Dennis Gardner]

i am going to test the new receiver with music tomorrow night. I do not expect a problem with the 803 after talking to the Onkyo technician.

I'm not trying ot rain on your new parade, and I am glad you did some homework before buying your equipment, but the fact remains, that the LSi series of Polks are the hardest to drive speaker Polk has ever marketed.

You will find a few members here on the forum use their LSis with a Denon, HK, Onk or Yamaha receiver, but you will find a much larger contingent 80-90% of those with experience with the LSis stating that the LSi series is more likely to send your receiver into shutdown when driven hard.

Sound&Vison Receiver Tests (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm)

Above, is the Sound & Vision chart from their testing and you can see even the latest model of Onkyo they tested, the TX-NR901 only produced 50 watts into 4 ohms rather than the rated 110wpc they claimed. Receivers marked in blue reached their claims, those in red didn't. Those marked in bold red like the 901 fell far short of the claim.

I wish you luck, and just remember that many around here use receivers as a preamp with outboard amps driving big RTis or LSi Polks so that option is always there with your new 803.

Cheers,

Dennis

[heiney9]

Kmartin, I hope you've set aside some extra cash to replace the drivers on your Lsi's. Because if you run all channels for music to even a moderate level you risk damaging your speakers. Hopefully the Onk will go into protection before any damage is done. Receivers are not designed to drive the type of load the Lsi's present to a high level for any period of time. What else do you think and Onkyo rep will say? "No don't buy our product it won't work". Certainly having the Lsi 25's helps as the they are powered, but be careful as you don't need the volume "to fill an auditorium" to do some damage.

YMMV

H9

[kmartin971]

This was confirmed with a polk rep not just the Onkyo rep. BTW, the nice thing about the Onkyo is that it also supports peramps for 7 channels.

I am still struggling with many posters cliam the LSi need more power than the 803 provides. Granted the NR1000 wuld be a much better fit.

In all likelyhood I will be adding a 200 watt plus amp to drive the towers.

The receiver has yet to shut down. The Marantz and Onkyo top of the receivers all support 4 ohms and are high current receivers. I watched Gladiator, Pirates of the Carribean, and Star Wars episode 1-IV. No shut downs. The detailed was vary impressive. Sound was set to half vol! A very loud level.

No where in the HK manual does if ever make the claim that it supports anything below 8 ohms. I have talked to an HK tech and read the AVR 7300 and AVR 740 manuals. The new 800 series which are Ultra 2 certified may but their manuals are not available on the HK website.

[sickicw]

I have the Onkyo SR703 with lsi speakers, but only use the onkyo to power my rear speakers. I would be very carefull about useing it on more than two 4 ohm speakers. If you decited to turn up the volume too much running with 5 to 7 4 ohm speakers, you might just find yourself with a blown tweeter. Also take a look at the spec sheet. It is only rated at the advertised power driving 2 8 ohm speakers, not 7, 4 ohms ones.

[kmartin971]

Sick:

What amp are you using to drive the towers?


The specs for the 802 clearly indicate they support 4 ohms. All channels are individually powered in the 803. Rating is 170w per channel. if you look other speakers they either have an inpedence switch they will only go as low as 6 ohms or no switch at all. When using the 803 you must change the inpedence setting to 4 ohms.

I did ask the Onkyo tech to provide ratings for this receiver at 4 ohms and compared it to other receivers. If you ask they will provide ou with the data although its not pubished in the manual.

All I'm trying to say is its very telling when both Denon and Yamaha recommend HK, Onkyo, and Marantz and admitted their receivers were not acceptable for the 4 ohm load.

Power Output
TX-SR803/803E:
2 channels driven: North American:
105 W + 105 W (8Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, FTC)
European: 140 W + 140 W (6Ω, 1 kHz, DIN) Others: 170 W + 170 W(6Ω, 1 kHz, JEITA)
TX-SR703/703E/8370:
2 channels driven: North American:
100 W + 100 W(8Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, FTC)
European: 130 W + 130 W (6 Ω, 1 kHz, DIN)
Others: 160 W + 160 W(6 Ω, 1 kHz, JEITA)
Dynamic Power TX-SR803/803E:
240 W + 240 W (3 Ω, Front)
180 W + 180 W (4 Ω, Front)
125 W + 125 W (8 Ω, Front)
TX-SR703/703E/8370:
230 W + 230 W (3Ω, Front)
170 W + 170 W (4 Ω, Front)
115 W + 115 W (8 Ω, Front)
THD (Total Harmonic
Distortion) 0.08% (Power Rated)
Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8Ω)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/ 47 k (LINE)
2.5 mV/47 k Ω (PHONO MM)
Output Level and Impedance 200 mV/ 470 Ω(REC OUT)
Phono Overload 70 mV (MM 1 kHz, 0.5%)
Frequency Response 10 Hz–100 kHz/ +1 dB-3 dB (LINE)
Tone Control ±10 dB, 50 Hz (BASS)
±10 dB, 20 kHz (TREBLE)
Signal to Noise Ratio 106 dB (LINE, IHF-A)
80 dB (PHONO, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance 4 Ω or 6 Ω

[Dennis Gardner]

The point being made is that receiver rating watts aren't accurate most of the time. They are inflated at best and outright lies on some. (Refer to my previous test chart).

At the levels you listen, you may get along just fine with the big Onk receiver. Just keep in mind that if you start having problems with thermal shutdowns or speaker failure, it would be the receiver behind the issue not those wonderful LSis. A real test for multi channel music is the DTS version of Eagles-Hell Freezes Over, I've put a receiver into thermal shutdown with this on 8 ohm Polks.

Glad you are happy so far,

DG

[kmartin971]

Agreed. Then I will have to go buy the outlaw 200 watt 7 channel amp! :)

I do think that adding a high powered two channel amp for the towers will remove some of the load from the receiver.

All in all a reasonable sound levels you can drive the 4 ohm load and make the spaeker perfrom they way they were intended to.

I can tell you that I noticed a condierable differene between the Onkyo 803 and my yamaha 700 series.

The unit is not shutting down and still loud enough to scare my german sheppard! :)

The real lesson is stick with Polk RTi (8ohm) series unless you are prepared to spend a lot of money!

[jrlouie]

For what it's worth, I ran my Lsi's for quite some time with just an Onkyo. I thought it sounded good. Even detailed.
For experimenting purposes I hooked up a power amp, and whoa, now they were nice and full sounding. Made my Onkyo sound harsh, empty, and I'd even say disorted when at high levels (I didn't know I was hearing distortion until I cleaned it up).
My only point is that a person can probably get away with the Onkyo, but not great perfomance and I didn't know it until I tried otherwise. In my case, ignorance was bliss I guess.

Oh yeah, my Onkyo never shut down but I think that's because I never drove it to hard. In my case distortion (because of over-worked amplification) would come into play before this would occur, and I'd turn it down a little.

I'd also say that if I had a party and cranked it a little, I'll admit it would make me nervous. Now that I have seperate amps, the nervousness is gone.

[sickicw]

Oh yea one more thing about the Onkyo. Since it is a class A/B amp, if you dont wire it to any speakers, it will get very very hot. not sure how bad this is, but before i used it for my rear speakers, it did shut down once after running it about 8 hours as a pre-amp at very high volumes (high amp bias). After all, all of that unused current has to go somewhere.

[audiobliss]

All in all a[t] reasonable sound levels you can drive the 4 ohm load and make the spaeker perfrom they way they were intended to.

The way they were intended to? With a receiver? Nope.

[kmartin971]

When I talked to Polk they recommended a receiver with power range of 125w to 200w per channel.

[aaharvel]

When I talked to Polk they recommended a receiver with power range of 125w to 200w per channel.

great. Why don't you ask Onkyo how much current their amps are packing? :rolleyes:

Heiney, Dennis and Zero, Sick, Louie & Bliss warned you..

[audiobliss]

Ok. I think we may be coming off a little too strong here. I mean, you did just get your new receiver and are loving it, after all. Let me try and put it this way. If you just listen to the LSi25's for music off the Onkyo, you would probably get pretty good sound and it would probably power them just fine up to modest levels. However, when you watch a movie and are asking the Onkyo to support the load of 7 4ohm speakers, you're asking it do something that all receivers have a hard time doing. You won't be able to turn it up much at all without straining it, and you can forget approaching reference levels, I would think.

You very well may be experiencing much better sound than your Yamaha gave you. The Onkyo very well may be doing great in comparison. However, it is not, by any stretch, a good match for even a pair of LSi speakers, much less a full 7.1 LSi HT setup. If you're not asking more of the receiver than it can handle without going into safe mode, then great. Enjoy it and don't turn it up too much for both the receiver's and the speakers' sake.

But keep in mind that the receiver is severely limiting your speakers' performance. And like jrlouie said, you just think it sounds good. You're probably hearing a fair amount of distortion and just don't realized it and won't until you add a stout amp to your system and 'make the spaeker[s] perfrom they way they were intended to.'

[aaharvel]

exactly. They're nice receivers.
Get an external amp.

[kmartin971]

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/reviews/538999742

[kmartin971]

Using the 803 on screen setup I set the inpedence setting to 4. Some sites say leave the inpedence setting on 8 even though you can set it to 4 ohm, why? waht setting should be used when driving LSis?

[audiobliss]

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/reviews/538999742

No thanks. Personally not interested in an Onkyo (or a receiver, for that matter). Thanks for the link though.

:p

[audiobliss]

With receivers that have an impedance switch, what it does it limit the amount of current the amp section will push. For 8ohm speakers, there doesn't need to be a restriction because they won't draw more power than the receiver can provide (generally). However, 4ohm speakers can easily draw more than the receiver can provide, thus sending it into safe mode, at least until you fry it. So, when you switch it to 4ohms, it limits the current, thus making it 'safer'. However, this also hurts the sound quality. Leave it set to 8ohms and use your head when you turn it up. If it starts to distort and get hot, you're pushing it too hard and you should turn it down.

At least that's what I remember from previous discussions about the 8/4ohm switch. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

[kmartin971]

Who actually listens to movies at reference level? Proably because they already hearing impaired! :)

Any suggestions for a good amp?

[heiney9]

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/reviews/538999742

What's the purpose of the link........to convince us? It won't; I've been there done that and no matter how many testimonials you come up with it means nothing until YOU try it yourself. If you are happy with the performance of your set-up, that's all that matters. We are simply commenting about taking it to the next (better) level. We all have to start somewhere and you could have done a lot worse. So enjoy, but don't try to convince those of us WHO have experienced the "other" side to just agree with you. :) Receivers don't cut it with the Lsi's. You will never get anything close to the full potential of those wonnderful speaks unless you give them lots of current. And you don't get THAT kind of current from a receiver. :)

H9

[kmartin971]

Heiney:

What do recommend as my next purchase to get to the next level?

Actually I agree with you. The only point im making is for many people who do not want to spend 3-5k this an excellent alternative if you already own LSis.

[audiobliss]

I would personally look at B&K, Rotell, Outlaw, Carver, and Sunfire.

[audiobliss]

Actually I agree with you. The only point im making is for many people who do not want to spend 3-5k this an excellent alternative if you already own LSis.

Perhaps it would be a good alternative if you already have LSi's. However, if you're not willing to spend the money necessary to buy good equipment to power the LSi's, you should not buy LSi's. It's a waste of speaker, could damage the equipment, and cheaper speakers matched with comparable equipment would sound better than poorly powered LSi's.

[heiney9]

Heiney:

What do recommend as my next purchase to get to the next level?

Actually I agree with you. The only point im making is for many people who do not want to spend 3-5k this an excellent alternative if you already own LSis.

You don't need to sepnd anywhere near 3-5K if you are willing to buy used. Look at amps by:

Rotel
Parasound
Adcom (personal fave)
Outlaw (Club Polk fave)
Cineova (a bit more expensive)
Sunfire
Carver

You have a very nice start with the Lsi's, they are outstanding speakers. You may need to do what many here did and that is wait awhile and save your money if the budget is low or if you feel the need to purchase new stock rather than used. I know we come off sometimes as "up'ity" and most don't mean to. It's just this subject has been discussed to death and people are always trying to convince that there is no appreciable difference between running external amps vs. a receiver. In the case of the Lsi's no receiver is really a good match for top performance. Personally I would never run anything BUT seperates regardless of speakers. No receiver IMO, sounds as good. But that's my experience and my preference.

FWIW

H9

[kmartin971]

THD = 0.08 at 4, 6, and 8 ohms (all channels powered)

RMS = 100 @ 8, 120 @ 6, and 140 @ 8 (all channels powered)

DP = 125 @ 8 and 180 @ 4 ohms (all channels powered)

They also emailed me a tech hand book for free with the additional rating at 4 ohms.

Seems like enough power to me. Not bad for under 1k.

I believe the NR-100 would be a sufficient receiver they rate 150 watts @ 8 ohms and all numbers abve go up from their. Problem is that receiver is over 3k right now. As soon as it comes under 1.5k I will upgrade again or buy a sepeate 7 channel amp.

If I have problems in the future I will post them here. Thanks for the help.

[audiobliss]

Well, there goes my respect for Onkyo (that I didn't have in the first place). There's no way you're going to convince me any receiver at this price, especially an Onkyo, will push 140 continuous watts into a 4ohm load all channels driven with just 0.08% THD. There's no way you could convince me it could do it at 20% THD, either.

[kmartin971]

I clearly asked the tech "with all channels powered?" I do agree with you. I would have expected the THD number to increase with the wattage.

Actually you are correct, we could do the match ourselves:


Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/ 47 k
(LINE) 2.5 mV/47 k (PHONO MM)

As the impenance goes up so should the THD. Some crunch numbers and see what it is ! 4 ohms.

[audiobliss]

I don't think I believe it could put out 140watts into one channel presenting a 4ohm load continuously with less than 0.08% THD.

That's just not something receivers do.

[heiney9]

THD = 0.08 at 4, 6, and 8 ohms (all channels powered)

RMS = 100 @ 8, 120 @ 6, and 140 @ 8 (all channels powered)

DP = 125 @ 8 and 180 @ 4 ohms (all channels powered)

They also emailed me a tech hand book for free with the additional rating at 4 ohms.

Seems like enough power to me.

If I have problems in the future I will post them here. Thanks for the help.

Ok I'm done......*shrugs shoulders* lets out a sigh* Sounds like a winner, GO FOR IT :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: We all know specs don't lie. Also specs are where it's at for determining what sounds good. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .

My 45 watt Nakamichi receiver would walk over that ONK soundwise and current wise. Oh wait....that's not in the specs so it can't be.

Believe what you hear....not what the specs say. There is no uniform standard for rating one unit to another. Manufactures can manipulate figures to look good on paper. Specs are a very general guidline at best.

H9

[kmartin971]

I'm not saying specs are always correct, just passing on exactly what they provided.

Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/ 47 k ohm
(LINE) 2.5 mV/47 k ohm (PHONO MM)

[kmartin971]

Is this amp any good?

http://cgi.ebay.com/MONSTER-SIGNATURE-3-CHANNEL-AMP-MPA-3250-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ5856573278QQcategoryZ14973QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

[audiobliss]

Haha, you'll probably get mixed responses on that one. Yeah, I think as far as amps go, it's pretty good. However, most people here wouldn't buy one simply because of the company (Monster doesn't have very good business practices).

I'd recommend looking elsewhere, regardless.

[heiney9]

Is this amp any good?

http://cgi.ebay.com/MONSTER-SIGNATURE-3-CHANNEL-AMP-MPA-3250-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ5856573278QQcategoryZ14973QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Monster is new to the game of amplifiers. Richard Marsh who is somehow involved has a good reputation. I know a few members here have one of these and are very happy with them. Monster (in general) is not regarded real well around here, mostly becasue of their marketing practices of their cables, speaker wire and power conditioners. I've not had a chance to listen to one, but I can say it is more capable of driving your Lsi's than the Onkyo. IMO, that's an awful lot of money for an amp.....you could do as well and probably better for considerably less with the other brands mentioned in this thread.

H9

[kmartin971]

Can somone recommend a 3 or 4 channel amp?

[VR3]

Check out amps from these companies...

Adcom, NAD, B&K, Carver, AMC, Audiosource

All can be found from 100-500 bones shipped. Audiosource, Adcom, NAD all have amps used that can be found between 100-200.

They'll blow the top right off that Oinker.

[heiney9]

Can somone recommend a 3 or 4 channel amp?

Ummm...that was covered a few posts ago. You have gotten lots of brand names, now it's time to start the research. Making a decision isn't going to happen in the next hour. :)

H9

[kmartin971]

Send links!

[heiney9]

Send links!

Use Google, this isn't the library and I'm not the librarian :rolleyes:

H9

[McLoki]

Did they happen to mention the current (amps per channel) that the onkyo would provide? More than watts, current is where its at for good sound.

I also started with an Onkyo AVR. (777 in my case) that I thought sounded good when I purchased it. I upgraded to a killer amp and saw improvements, but not as much as everyone was making out. (I had all LSi7's and an LSiC at the time).

With an audio system, it is all about synergy - I was (and still am) using my Onkyo 777 as a pre-amp to my external Cinepro amp. I thought the sound was good, but not what I have heard at high end audio dealers. (better than what I have heard at Best Buy, Circut City and American though) A friend (and club Polk member - Opus) brought over his Rotel Preamp and you cannot believe the difference in sound it made.

I would say (in my case) the quality of the onkyo amplifier far exceeded the quality of the Onkyo pre-amp built into my AVR. (hence the small improvment I heard when I upgraded - I still had the weakest link in my system in use)

I now know what my system is capable of and it is almost painful to watch movies and listen to music now - knowing how much better it could be.

I am still a ways away from upgrading to full separates, but it will be my next upgrade. (gotta get the funds in place first)

Just wanted to relate my story for those who say "just throw an amp on your avr and you will be fine". You really owe it to yourself to hear what an LSi system run with decent electronics behind it is capable of - The word amazing does not even begin to describe it.

Michael

[audiobliss]

Outlaw Audio Products Page (http://outlawaudio.com/products/index.html)

Rotel HT Multi-Channel Amplifiers (http://rotel.com/products/multichannel-power-amplifiers.htm)

Adcom Multi-Channel Amplifiers (http://www.adcom.com/amplifiers/multichannelamplifiers.htm)

B&K Products (http://www.bkcomp.com/products.asp)

NAD Home Theater Products (http://www.nadelectronics.com/ht_amplifiers/index.htm)

Audiosource Amplifiers (http://www.audiosource.net/amplifiers.html)

AMC Amplifiers (http://www.amchome.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AO&Category_Code=Amplifiers)

Sunfire Amplifiers (http://www.sunfire.com/amp.htm)

Parasound (http://www.parasound.com/index2.html)

Now don't ask me why I did all that...'cause I don't know...

[doug lang]

Hey dude I was one always to buy the big onkyo. I still have a tx-ds989. I just had to have it. I laid out 2,500 bucks for this big one. Hey great sound and lots of features. It does look impressive. Started to replace my speakers with polk,and still the sound was ok. One thing I did notice it was running very hot. Now I am not one who turns it up,but still I was uneasy with the heat. I went with sunfire and there was a difference instantly. The sound was not as harsh and it really came to life. One thing also about sunfire it's the coolest running,no heat at all. It was hard for me to except this with my onkyo, but all that has heard my system are quite impressed.

[aaharvel]

very nice system doug.

[mantis]

Much has been said so I will cut right to the chase, why own speakers like the Lsi if your not planning on buying seperates or at least a high end receiver, why own them? You would have better results with rti. Most receivers can run them with no problems. As stated already, it's all about synergy.

Do what you want but hear what the Lsi speakers can do you will not.

Dan

[audiobliss]

hehe...there's yoda...

[sickicw]

just remember that most lsi speakers can dip down near 2 ohms.

If you want to go the cheap way and have the time and experiance, i would try hooking up a good car amplifier to your lsi15s (use a high quality power converter), use your onkyo receiver for your rears or center (get the 703 on sale at circuit city), and then buy a cheap 5 channel amp (like outlaw audio) for the rest.

This would all end up being under 2k if you found sales or bought used. Actually now that i think about it, just get the 5 channel amp and receiver first, and if you think your fronts need more power, then go for the car amp (a good one can double power all the way to 1 ohm).

[m-rorem]

Amplifier Section

Power Output* (8 ohm, 20 Hz-20 kHz, FTC) (notice no disclosure on rating into 4 ohms or how many channels driven)

Front L/R 105 W/Ch

Center 105 W

Surround L/R 105 W/Ch

Surround Back 105 W/Ch (L/R)

Power Output* (6 ohm, 1 kHz, FTC) (no disclosure on rated power full bandwith)

Front L/R 135 W/Ch

Center 135 W

Surround L/R 135 W/Ch

Surround Back 135 W/Ch (L/R)

Dynamic Power** (front) (not an FTC rating, merely a ILS {if lightning strikes} rating that means nothing IMHO)

3 ohm 240 W/Ch

4 ohm 180 W/Ch

8 ohm 125 W/Ch

THD (Rated Power) 0.08 % (all channels) (no disclosure on bandwith or impedence rating of load)

Damping Factor (1 kHz, 8 ohm) 60

Input Sensitivity and Impedance

PHONO MM 2.5 mV, 47 k ohms

CD and TAPE Play 200 mV, 47 k ohms

Output Level and Impedance

TAPE REC 200 mV, 470 ohms

PRE OUT 1.0 V, 470 ohms

Frequency Response 10 Hz-100 kHz (+ 1 dB, - 3 dB)

S/N Ratio

PHONO (MM) 80 dB (IHF-A, 5 mV input)

CD/TAPE 106 dB (IHF-A, 0.5 V input)

Phono Overload (1 kHz) 70 mV RMS, 0.5 % THD

Tone Controls

BASS +/- 10 dB at 50 Hz

TREBLE +/- 10 dB at 20 kHz


Tuner Section

Usable Sensitivity

FM Mono 15.2 dBf, 1.0 uV (75 ohm IHF)

FM Stereo 22.2 dBf, 2.0 uV (75 ohm IHF)

AM 30 uV

S/N Ratio

FM Mono 73 dB (IHF-A)

FM Stereo 67 dB (IHF-A)

AM 40 dB

THD

FM Mono 0.3 %

FM Stereo 0.5 %

AM 0.7 %

FM Stereo Separation 40 dB at 1kHz


General

Dimensions (W x H x D) 17 1/8"" x 6 13/16"" x 16 15/16""

Weight 29.8 Ibs (my DVD player weighs more than this, I guarantee it can't have a substansial power supply unless it is PWM, and it isn't)

You might gather from my comments that I am not a fan of the Onkyo product, this is not true, I own their Integra Research products (different class, completely) and am very happy with it's ability to drive my LSIs. However, the statements made here about the Onkyo, and Integra (non research) are very accurate, there is NO way they are capable of driving a full (or even stereo pair) of LSIs for any amount of time without over stressing the receiver. Eventually you will cause the receiver to go into "protection mode" or worse damage your LSIs. Power ratings are very hard to decipher, and there is a lot of latitude in the FTC's rating system. I truly believe that you could run a pair of LSI 15s quite well with a quality 50wpc amp, but a receiver (with very few exceptions) regardless of it's rated power will not be able to give you NEAR the quality of performance that you paid for with your LSI investment.

As mentioned above Audiogon is a great source for purchasing a pre-owned quality amplifier. The additional benefit of Audiogon is that most of it's members are "hi-end" nuts so their used gear is usually "like new" and of excellent quality. Since amplifiers have no moving parts, and for the most part no parts that "wear out" buying used is a great way to get a quality amp for a fraciton of it's retail value.

Many of the above posters mentioned some great options for amps, but you might also want to look into the Integra Research RDA-7. It might be a little pricey compared to the others mentioned, but it's a $5000.00 amp that can be had for around $1800.00 used (plus shipping). It weighs 120lbs sports two 1Kv transformers and is rated and tested to supply 300 wpc into a 4 ohm load without stress. Mine never even gets more than warm to the touch driving my full LSI 7.1 system at -15db from reference all day long.

Good luck with your upgrade path.

mrorem

[kmartin971]

Recent posts were very helpful.

[kmartin971]

Any comments on Audio Source AMP300? I am thinking of picking up two for now and two later.

[audiobliss]

They seem to me to be too much like PA amps. If that's true, look elsewhere.

[kmartin971]

http://www.audiosource.net/amp300.html

Comments? Good for LSis?

• 150W per channel into 8 ohm loads with less than 0.2% THD+N
• 235W per channel into 4 ohm loads with less than 0.2% THD+N
• 470W Bridged Mono into 8 ohms with less than 0.2% THD+N
• Crosstalk: >65dB @ 1kHz, ref. to rated power into 8 ohms
• Frequency Response: (20Hz to 20kHz)+0.0dB, -0.5dB
• Signal to Noise ratio: -103dB ref. to rated power into 4 ohms
• AC Power Consumption: 1200W (all channels driven)
• Net Weight: 28.6 lbs (13.0 kgs)
• Gross Weight: 36.5 lbs (16.6 kgs)
• 150 watts RMS per channel power amplifier with complete custom installer feature set
• Bridgeable outputs for 470 watts RMS total output power
• Torrodial Power Supply
• 2 stereo low-level (RCA) inputs and one high-level (speaker) input, and one auxiliary low-level output
• Automatic source switching with adjustable delay timer (3-15 seconds)
• Two sets of speaker outputs selectable from the front panel
• Front mounted main volume and balance controls
• Rear mounted master level controls for setting max output levels
• Flexible Power-on: Switched, Signal Sensing, and 12v trigger
• 5 way speaker wire binding posts for bare wire or Banana plugs

[audiobliss]

I think I would personally want more power than that going to my LSi25's. I would be looking for right around 300 watts.For some reason, I still think it's a PA amp.

EDIT - Just noticed that the THD is listed as 0.2%. That's gotta be a PA amp. No Rotel or Adcom or B&K or Sunfire or NAD, etc. would have close to that much distortion. Look elsewhere. You can do better, and those LSi25's deserve better.

[kmartin971]

Don't think its PA. AS only makes amps for home use.

[audiobliss]

At any rate, 0.2% THD for a solid state amplifier, especially under only an 8ohm load, is horrible. Like I said, you can do better, and your LSi25's deserve better.

EDIT - Not saying that 0.2% THD is an audible amount. I'm just using, and justifiably so, I think, the THD rating as an indicator of the amp's quality.

[m-rorem]

They seem to me to be too much like PA amps. If that's true, look elsewhere.

I agree, I thought Audio Source only made eq's these days(LOL)? If it were I, I wouldn't consider purchasing any Hi-Fi product based on spec's alone. Go audition the amp, or better yet ask for a loaner for in-home trial. If none is available, then pass.

mrorem

[kmartin971]

Cinema Grand Signature 400~seven

400 watts rms continuous per channel, all channels driven into eight ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.5% T.H.D.
800 watts rms per channel into four ohms
1600 watts rms per channel into two ohms - time-limited basis
Two output options for the main left and right channels: current source for a warmer, more open tube sound or voltage source for all the tight response this awesome solid state amplifier can deliver
Intrinsic frequency response 1 Hz to 80 kHz
Signal present auto-on switch senses input signal on any channel and automatically powers up
12VDC trigger input with 1/8" mini jacks as well as plug-in screw-terminal strip
Balanced XLR and unbalanced RCA inputs
High-quality gold-plated all metal five-way binding posts
Five-year parts and labor warranty

[audiobliss]

"Now thar's an ayump!" A good ol' Sunfire. I'd love to have one of those one day. Absolutely amazing specs. Doubles it's output down to two ohms. The stereo amps double their output all the way down to one ohm! :eek: And I've only heard good things about Sunfire.

[kmartin971]

Sunfire :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5857231283&fromMakeTrack=true

[m-rorem]

"Now thar's an ayump!" A good ol' Sunfire. I'd love to have one of those one day. Absolutely amazing specs. Doubles it's output down to two ohms. The stereo amps double their output all the way down to one ohm! :eek: And I've only heard good things about Sunfire.

Yes great spec's good reputation, but now he's getting into some pretty serious $ even used. If your willing to spend this kind of $ you have many many many options available to you. Also, remember that for any amplifier to meet those kind of specifications they will most certainly have to have a dedicated 20 amp circuit available to them.

mrorem

[audiobliss]

Kinda seems inconsistent, I know. But when you combine the fact that Audiosource didn't specify the conditions under which they measured that 0.2% THD with the fact that it doesn't come close to doubling power when the resistance halfs, you don't get a pretty picture.

With the Sunfire, the THD is rated full-bandwidth (20Hz-20kHz...that is full-bandwidth, right?) with all channels driven (and that's 7 instead of 2!) at 400 watts per channel. AND it doubles its output all the way to 2 ohms. Looks like a much, much more solid amp.

[audiobliss]

Yes great spec's good reputation, but now he's getting into some pretty serious $ even used.

Good point. It's also backed up by that ebay add...$4500...and it's only 200wpc! :eek:

[kmartin971]

The AS only had two amps! lol~!

[m-rorem]

Sunfire :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5857231283&fromMakeTrack=true

The Cinema Grand IV pre-pro has had mixed reviews, it is a definite step up from the previous generations, but for the $ that it demands you can do better. Also it's 19" (pro) form factor doesn't appeal to everyone, hope your equip rack can handle it.

I have not personally auditioned sufire products in quite some time, so I can't comment on their performance only what I have read from other discussions.

mrorem

[audiobliss]

The AS only had two amps! lol~!

:confused: Not sure what you're saying there.

[kmartin971]

Read the comment above. The AS 300 only comes in two channel. You would have to buy multiple pairs.

PS - The audio closet has two dedicated circuits - a 110 and a 220

[kmartin971]

You are not comparing apples to apples here. The AS only comes in two channels.



AMP300 Specifications
Power Bandwidth 20Hz-20kHz:
150W per CH into 8 ohm loads with less than 0.2% THD+N
235W per CH into 4 ohm loads with less than 0.2% THD+N
470W Bridged Mono into 8 ohms with less than 0.2% THD+N
Crosstalk: >65dB @ 1kHz, ref. to rated power into 8 ohms
Frequency Response: (20Hz to 20kHz)+0.0dB, -0.5dB
Signal to Noise ratio: -103dB ref. to rated power into 4 ohms
AC Power Consumption: 1200W (all channels driven)
Net Weight: 28.6 lbs (13.0 kgs)
Gross Weight: 36.5 lbs (16.6 kgs)


Kinda seems inconsistent, I know. But when you combine the fact that Audiosource didn't specify the conditions under which they measured that 0.2% THD with the fact that it doesn't come close to doubling power when the resistance halfs, you don't get a pretty picture.

With the Sunfire, the THD is rated full-bandwidth (20Hz-20kHz...that is full-bandwidth, right?) with all channels driven (and that's 7 instead of 2!) at 400 watts per channel. AND it doubles its output all the way to 2 ohms. Looks like a much, much more solid amp.

[audiobliss]

I'm sorry for being so obtuse, but I'm not seeing the fault in my comparison. Somebody fill me in. :confused:

[kmartin971]

If you buy multiple AS amps the rating will stay the same. AS 300 runs about $400 for 2 channels.

[m-rorem]

I'm sorry for being so obtuse, but I'm not seeing the fault in my comparison. Somebody fill me in. :confused:

You disagreed with him! That's the fault! (LOL)

Just kidding of course.

Unfortunately all too many people get wrapped up in the spec's and don't take the time to audition before they part with $. Then again, this trend is what provides the "savy" pre-owned buyer a good selection of product to choose from, so I say keep it up america!

mrorem ;)

[kmartin971]

I auditioned the LSi many times before buying. I will do the same with my equipment.

[audiobliss]

If you buy multiple AS amps the rating will stay the same. AS 300 runs about $400 for 2 channels.

Ok, specify what 'rating' you're talking about, and I think we'll be on the same page.

[kmartin971]

THD rating - the AS 300 was also rated at full bandwidth. Re-read your post above #67.

[audiobliss]

Right. The THD rating of 0.02% will be the same across the board, no matter how many AS amps you buy. But I fail to see how that is relevant the comparison I was making earlier.

[kmartin971]

Your post implies that if you increase/decrease the number of channels the distotion level will increase. Re-read 67.

[kmartin971]

So I assume you are not for stacking the AS 300? 235WPC?

LSi25 Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 300 w/channel
(Keep in mind the woofer already has its own amp)

LSiC Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 200 w/channel

LSiFX Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 200 w/channel


Seems that should be sufficient.

[audiobliss]

Sorry if my post implied that, didn't mean for it too at all. I was trying to say that the Sunfire was subjected to a lot more stress for testing than the AS (7 channels opposed to 2, full-bandwidth rating opposed to who knows what, and driven at full power as opposed to who knows what). Considering that and the fact that it is obviously very high current (doubles output down to 2 ohms) whereas the AS isn't (goes from 150@8 to 235@4), I deem the Sunfire to be a much superior amp.

And I still think no one should use the AS in a home audio environment.

EDIT - However, that is only my humble opinion. Treat it as such.

[audiobliss]

So I assume you are not for stacking the AS 300? 235WPC?

LSiC Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 200 w/channel

LSiFX Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 200 w/channel


Seems that should be sufficient.

But what about the LSi25's? That's what I've had in mind all this time. They'll handle 300 watts, and I'd give it to them.

[kmartin971]

I agree. But the Sunfire is 5k and 8 channels of AS can be had for 1200-1400.

[kmartin971]

The LSi25 can be split. Whats left is an LSi9 (Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 200 w/channel ). The 10" woofer already has a seperate dedicated amp.

[audiobliss]

Great point. So scratch both the AS and the Sunfire and look into Parasound, Rotel, B&K, Carver, Adcom, NAD, etc. And don't forget Cinenova. I've heard a good bit of great stuff about them here lately.

[kmartin971]

Why would you not use AS? Just curious. I think its interesting that you would not use As in the home when thats all they do.

[kmartin971]

I have lots more homework to do :) Thanks!

[audiobliss]

Because, IIRC, it's regarded to be of the same quality as a PA amp, the specs don't rule out that view, and you can do better for the money on the used market. Start looking into amps from Parasound, B&K, Carver, Rotel, Adcom, Cinenova, NAd, etc. You could do great on amplification with something from any of those manufacturers for the same or less money, I'd bet.

But, bottom of the line, use your ears. And for sure don't take what we say (me in particular! :p) for granted. Rely on your research and your ears. And enjoy!

[kmartin971]

I am going to look at parasound next!

[Dennis Gardner]

Why would you not use AS? Just curious.
I would match quality of the speakers with quality of the amp. Some nice mid-fi brands that others here on the forum use are......Parasound, Rotel, Outlaw ATI, Odyssey all have nice lineups that would give your receiver the needed relief.

[m-rorem]

The LSi25 can be split. Whats left is an LSi9 (Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 200 w/channel ). The 10" woofer already has a seperate dedicated amp.

Not to go off topic, but the LSI25's top half is not exactly a LSI9. But you are correct, the LSI25 actually would require less power to drive than a LSI15, but it isn't any less of a load on the amplifier as far as the impedance goes.

mrorem

[kmartin971]

m-rorem - I agree 100%!!

[heiney9]

This is getting laughable. Kmartin quit quoting specs...they mean nothing in the real world. Audio source, not the greatest but still marginally better than a receiver.

Adcom
Rotel
B & K
Aragon
Outlaw
Parasound
Carver
Cineova

all leaps and bounds what you've quoted so far. I'm beginning to think you are posting just to see yourself post. You keep throwing things out there to get a reaction and then you want to argue with that reaction. Do whatever you want...be me personally I've had experience with one or more of the above and they are solid choices that will make a difference.

H9

[aaharvel]

my JBL duet pc speakers are 2ohm speakers and putting out 180x2 cont. 20hz-20khz with +/-110 current in it's internal amp.

OH IT'S TRUE! IT'S DAMN TRUE!

[scottyf]

I'm very happy with my Alta Vista modified Counterpoint NP-100. Plenty of power and the most musical amp I've ever listened to. Makes my LSi15 based 2-channel system one of the best I've ever owned....and I've owned many.

http://www.altavistaaudio.com/

[m-rorem]

I'm beginning to think you are posting just to see yourself post. You keep throwing things out there to get a reaction and then you want to argue with that reaction.


I'm starting to get a headache myself, I think I will go downstairs to my humble HT and listen and watch, get a big grin on my face and just enjoy! Something that I should have done about an hour ago.....

m-rorem :rolleyes:

[cfrizz]

Somebody finally said it.

You have outstanding speakers, if you now want to risk them with a receiver that can't handle them or cheap out on a non-home audio amp, go right ahead.

But just stop wasting our time, since we have already given you all the relevant information & recommendations that you need to make a WISE decision!




This is getting laughable. Kmartin quit quoting specs...they mean nothing in the real world. Audio source, not the greatest but still marginally better than a receiver.

Adcom
Rotel
B & K
Aragon
Outlaw
Parasound
Carver
Cineova

all leaps and bounds what you've quoted so far. I'm beginning to think you are posting just to see yourself post. You keep throwing things out there to get a reaction and then you want to argue with that reaction. Do whatever you want...be me personally I've had experience with one or more of the above and they are solid choices that will make a difference.

H9

[kmartin971]

Thanks for the LONG thread and dicussion! I think i am sold and will be adding a 7 channel amp with minimum 200 WPC in the 2k range.

If any one has any suggestions that meet this description please post.

Does anyone have the outlaw that meets this description?

Thanks,

kmart

[audiobliss]

I have a few suggestions...and they can all be researched right here: ;)


Outlaw Audio Products Page (http://outlawaudio.com/products/index.html)

Rotel HT Multi-Channel Amplifiers (http://rotel.com/products/multichannel-power-amplifiers.htm)

Adcom Multi-Channel Amplifiers (http://www.adcom.com/amplifiers/multichannelamplifiers.htm)

B&K Products (http://www.bkcomp.com/products.asp)

NAD Home Theater Products (http://www.nadelectronics.com/ht_amplifiers/index.htm)

Audosource Amplifiers (http://www.audiosource.net/amplifiers.html)

AMC Amplifiers (http://www.amchome.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AO&Category_Code=Amplifiers)

Sunfire Amplifiers (http://www.sunfire.com/amp.htm)

Parasound (http://www.parasound.com/index2.html)


Good luck and enjoy the hunt!

[adam2434]

Thought I would chime in on Audiosource, although the other "usual suspect" amp brands in the thread should be a step up from Audiosource.

Audiosource amps are not PA/pro; they are entry-level home separates. Some of their newer models seem more geared to whole house audio, vs. basic 2 ch set-ups.

For some reason, the distortion specs are higher for the newer model 300 vs. the model Three. I don't know if comes from a difference (downgrade) in the amp design/performance, or just a difference in measurement parameters.

Nonetheless, I'm running 2 Threes monobridged for my LS90s, and the improvement over my Pioneer Elite VSX-45TX is more than marginal. Given that the 45TX weighs around 42 lbs, I would guess that its power supply is beefier than the Onkyo mentioned in this thread.

The Threes were a cheap experiment for me into the world of separate amps, and I really didn't expect the level of improvement that I got over the 45TX. I can only wonder how much more of an improvement I would get with the better brands mentioned.

However, I believe your LSi's are harder to drive, are better speakers than my LS90s, and may require/deserve better amps than Audiosource.

[audiobliss]

There's no doubt that pretty much any amp is a step-up over a receiver. However, given this situation, the AS amps weren't enough of a step-up. I should think the LS90s would be hard to drive, too.

[cammrit]

Wow,
I replied the other day to kmartin, and I don't want to sound selfish, but you guys sure have pointed me in the right direction for my LSi package. kmartin, my sincere appologies for getting you into this discussion, as I do agree, if you are happy with your system, that's all that matters. For me, I don't have the time to go through upgrade after upgrade...I am only gonna do this once (the wife won't let me spend the money again, so I better spend it all the first time...he he). I think I will just spend the $2500 and get an Outlaw 990 w/7 Mono Block 200's. Sounds like a bargain to me. Considering it is quite a bit less than I was expecting to pay :) Unless any one else has any better ideas?

Cheers, and once again, thanks to all you experts giving your valuable comments so goons like me can make an informative discision without having to listen to a silly sales reps give you the rundown on their newest gizzmo.

cammrit

[audiobliss]

I think I will just spend the $2500 and get an Outlaw 990 w/7 Mono Block 200's.

I think you will be thrilled with that setup powering an LSi HT.

[cfrizz]

You have made a smart decision Cammrit! Both you & your wife will be happy with the new equipment which will last for years!!!

Let us know what you think of it once you have it installed!


Wow,
I replied the other day to kmartin, and I don't want to sound selfish, but you guys sure have pointed me in the right direction for my LSi package. kmartin, my sincere appologies for getting you into this discussion, as I do agree, if you are happy with your system, that's all that matters. For me, I don't have the time to go through upgrade after upgrade...I am only gonna do this once (the wife won't let me spend the money again, so I better spend it all the first time...he he). I think I will just spend the $2500 and get an Outlaw 990 w/7 Mono Block 200's. Sounds like a bargain to me. Considering it is quite a bit less than I was expecting to pay :) Unless any one else has any better ideas?

Cheers, and once again, thanks to all you experts giving your valuable comments so goons like me can make an informative discision without having to listen to a silly sales reps give you the rundown on their newest gizzmo.

cammrit

[The Doc]

It probably be better to say you cant use a reciever "at that price" to drive lsi's..Denons flagship reciever will give out plenty of power for a HT setup

[heiney9]

It probably be better to say you cant use a reciever "at that price" to drive lsi's..Denons flagship reciever will give out plenty of power for a HT setup

It's better to say that no receiver will drive the Lsi's like quality seperates. Even the more modest amps will do better than a HT receiver no matter if it's the flagship or not. Not to say the Denon isn't a nice piece. Comparing apples to oranges when it comes to Rec vs. seperates.

H9

[The Doc]

I think that would depend on how hard you drive those speakers in a HT situation..not all can have the space for alot of seperates. Plus denons high end av recievers offer alot of things never found in most preamp/processors

[aaharvel]

It's better to say that no receiver will drive the Lsi's like quality seperates. Even the more modest amps will do better than a HT receiver no matter if it's the flagship or not. Not to say the Denon isn't a nice piece. Comparing apples to oranges when it comes to Rec vs. seperates.

H9

you sure? - i'd prob. put a B&K receiver over my Adcoms

[heiney9]

Yep, my Adcom over B & K receiver. Again I'm talking principle here. Sure we can debate the merits of brand "x" vs. brand "y". Seperates offer the most flexibility, better perfomance based on higher grade parts and design execution. Any receiver is "compromise" of sorts. They are limited by physical size and have to make comprimises; those compromises are almost always in the power section. Of course some do this better than others and a flagship model usually has minimized the compromises.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/howto/405shopping/

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109459.html

Both of these informational articles explain in detail some of the limitations of receivers vs. seperates.

It's up to the indivdual to decide if these compromises are important. Where people get in trouble is trying to convince others these compromises are either non-exsistent or mean almost nothing.

H9

[aaharvel]

good links thanks

[Dennis Gardner]

It is all a matter of intended use and preferences: A school bus can cost more $$$, break every legal speed limit, haul more beautiful women, is way more versitile, and corner just as flat at 5 mph as the Z-06 Corvette.

It doesn't mean I would choose big yellow for my garage. :D


Now we're talking apples to oranges!

[audiobliss]

^^ Very interesting analogy...but one that I can relate to! :D

[Zero]

I am going to play stick in the mud here.

The Sony AVD S50 ES drove all five LSi's cleaner, with more control and dynamics than many seperates I have owned. This receiver retailed for only $750. Talk about a diamond in the rough. Now to really piss some people off - it was an all in one unit. Yep, a dvd player (kick ass video), cd/sacd...all that jazz. It spanked the hell out of the NAD / ROTEL / B&K receivers... which too are typically alright with driving LSi's.

That being said; screw onkyo. :)

[Dennis Gardner]

I really get sick of people trying to say as long as you don't drive them too loud, their stuff sounds good. Why not simply buy a balanced enough system to handle any volume. This can be done without breaking the bank, with the $$$ allocated the right way.

With this said...............anyone spending the $$$ on the LSi line is getting bad advice if they are trying to drive them with low end receivers or amps.

[audiobliss]

That being said; screw onkyo. :)

Amen. And in my opinion, put Denon in the same boat.

[heiney9]

I am going to play stick in the mud here.

The Sony AVD S50 ES drove all five LSi's cleaner, with more control and dynamics than many seperates I have owned. This receiver retailed for only $750. Talk about a diamond in the rough. Now to really piss some people off - it was an all in one unit. Yep, a dvd player (kick ass video), cd/sacd...all that jazz. It spanked the hell out of the NAD / ROTEL / B&K receivers... which too are typically alright with driving LSi's.

That being said; screw onkyo. :)

I'll go ahead and put my stick in the mud as well :D

Why don't you still use it? Seems like the holy grail to me. If it's so awesome and does better than many top performers why get rid of it? Sean, I assume you don't use it anymore. You've moved on to bigger and better things. There are always exceptions on both sides.

[audiobliss]

Well, Sean doesn't have the self-restraint required to hold on to the absolute best of anything when he stumbles across something else! :p

[McLoki]

That being said; screw onkyo. :)

The funny thing was, Until I heard Opus's Rotel Pre-amp in place of my Onkyo, I thought it sounded pretty good. Talk about just not knowing what you don't know.

I honestly had no idea what kind of sound was possible with my LSi's and how far away from that sound my AVR was keeping me. Of course, now I have to live with my Onkyo for a year before I can upgrade and every time I listen to it I wonder what that movie or music would sound like with a decent pre-amp. This hobby IS a sickness... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Michael

[heiney9]

This hobby IS a sickness... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Michael

I've been sick for a long time :D :p .

[Zero]

H9,

I went back to two-channel. Plain and simple.

[kmartin971]

I recently purchased an Aragon 2007! :) I will let you know if I see an improvement over my Onkyo 830.

[McLoki]

I recently purchased an Aragon 2007! :)
Now THAT is a nice amp... :D Congrats on the purchase and I look forward to your opinions on it compared to your Onkyo in driving your LSi's...

Michael

[kmartin971]

Only took 120+ posts to convince me! lol!

[heiney9]

Only took 120+ posts to convince me! lol!


Very nice choice. Listen for a while and them post your impressions. Aragon has always been on my short list when I decide to change things around. More than likely I'll be purchasing a pair of Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro's, singled ended class A with zero feedback.

H9

[cfrizz]

Wow!! Congrats!

[Dennis Gardner]

I'm not shocked, but pleasantly surprised that you dove so deeply into the separate amp pool. You will enjoy one of the most solid LSi rigs here on CP. Aragon makes a great amp.

Truly congrats are in order!

DG

[kmartin971]

I justed setup the Aragon 2007! You guys were right!!!!!!! The increase in perfromance is amazing!!!!!!!!!!! Much more detail and of course significantly more power!!!!

I am still waiting for my now RCA to come in the mail. I may see even more improvment after they are installed. Right I have monster 300s running from the receiver to the amp - not high quality.

I also added a Panamax 5510 - I cannot tell you how much this improved my picture. I had to re-run my video calibration tool!!!

[audiobliss]

Awesome! You certainly picked up a beast of an amp! 300 watts into 4ohms through 7 channels! :eek:

I take it you're now a convert to what external amps can do for you. Good. Glad to see you on our side now. :D

Enjoy your newfound speakers!

[Holydoc]

Wow! Nice amp!

Enjoy,

[kmartin971]

The system is amazing!!! I had a little trouble with the receiver config at first. Now thats all cleared up. Also added now sub! :)

JBL 400W powered sub.

Now it seems like my TV needs to upgraded - maybe next year!

TV = WS65611
Pre-Amp Onkyo 830
Amp Aragon 2007
Panamax 5510
Towers = LSi25s
Center = LSiC
Side Rear (2) = LSiFX
Rear (2) = LSiFX
JBL S120P II
XBox
XBox 360 (Wireless connection live and media center enabled)

[kmartin971]

I am going to listen to some SACDs! :)

[kmartin971]

I am going to listen to some SACDs!

[audiobliss]

If I had that amp powering an LSi setup, I believe I'd listen to SACDs twice, too! ;)

[kmartin971]

I was trying to fix my signature! Sorry for the double post!

[Holydoc]

If I had that amp powering an LSi setup, I believe I'd listen to SACDs twice, too! ;)

Two thumbs up! I am with your Audiobliss!

[kmartin971]

The amp is very heavy and has a very attractive steel cabinet.

[audiobliss]

Supposedly weighs 49lbs. Not a light-weight!

Info:
http://www.avrev.com/equip/aragon2007/


Aragon gear just has a certain look about it...that makes you want it.

[kmartin971]

I particually like the blue light against the steel when powered up! Cant really see it in that pic - comes out much more in the dark.

BTW - I also bought new polk car speakers - but its too dam cold to install them!

[kmartin971]

I should have gone with the 3008!

[kmartin971]

http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=427

Not many of these around. You can not find as good a deal on the 3000 series as the 2000 series.