Surrounds wire

[VinnyP61]

was wondering what gauge of speaker wire I shouls use with my Polkf/x300I running with denonon 3801 about 20 feet both dir thanks

[VinnyP61]

sorry for the bad speeling.

[juice21]

i run monster cable s14-2cl 14AWG to my surrounds and back surrounds from a 3801, and it works great! THX certified for up to 60ft. runs for surrounds.

[RuSsMaN]

Juice made a good choice, depending on your budget, any decent cord, 16awg or better will work like a charm.

Cheers,
Russ

[Ron-P]

14ga. here.


Peace Out~:D

[elsid88]

12awg for me.

Bought the 12awg spool from hell from Home Depot. 12awg for all my Polks. Have up to 45ft runs and I'm quite happy.

Remember, it's always how you like it. Most of us will never hear what you hear.

Good luck.:)

[cgravil]

Personally I use the monster xp "flat" wire 16 guage and able to be painted ... I have a run of approx 30Ft and they sound execellent. I don't spend the money on Monster wires for connecting components, I use AR instead, as there is no difference in the wires themselves <that I could see... I saw SEVERAL of them cut open for display at HH Greg>, just in $$$ tag.



Clay

[mantis]

For the receiver you own and the speaker's running off of it, 16gauge is min and 14 is max.No sonic benifit you you gain with larger wire, the speaker's will most likely be ran in small, no problems there.
Monstercables makes great inwall wire. the 14-2 the guy above uses is fantastic wire.I sounds real good.

[jeberhart]

I'm with cgravil: monster xp flat 16 guage is all you need. I run bigger stuff on the front L/Rs, but with surrounds I just don't see the point of spending the extra money. Even with what I'm using on my surrounds and the remote speakers I have in another room, I think it cost me close to $200 to wire everything, but then I'm running 10 speakers in my main room and 2 speakers in an upstairs room of the house. Ridiculous...

[dbournival]

I have two systems, one with 14-2 inwall monster cable, the other with 12-2 inwall from Home Depot ( Carol is the brand name, they have 14-2 & 16-2 also ) can't say there is a difference except the Home Depot was about 1/4 the price... Anything better the 16AWG should work.

[mantis]

did you test Monster 14-2 vs. the Home Depot wire???and found no difference???Strange. So it sounded the same uh????

[RuSsMaN]

Monster offers good products, at reasonable prices. I'm not knocking any monster gear, BUT, If I ran a double-blind-test with 14/2 monster, and 14/2 lamp cord......You might actually choose the lamp cord......

Cheers,
Russ

[joe logston]

i run 12g monter flat white the paint able becuase of long lenths and i run it under the carpet. i could have went cheaper. it was $1.50 a foot. mybe i got robed.

[mantis]

I dissagree with the lamp cord,
I tested the **** out of wire all my life.Lamp cord sounds harsh and tingy.Monstercable even bulk 14-2 has a warm natural sound to it.I personally think Monster makes some of the best sounding wire even slightly above its cost.Monster can't compete with Transparent in no way shape or form, but up against the others in it price class ans slighty above can really shine.
I'm suprised you said that Russ.
Then again if you like bright sounding cable, then you might pick the lamp cord.

[RuSsMaN]

That's fine, you have your opinion, I have mine. Do you have any hard data to show that monster is better than bulk wire, or that transparent is better than monster? That's all I ask for, from anyone regarding speaker cable. If you simply 'hear' a difference, I can accept that for what its worth.

Cheers,
Russ

I'll leave it at this, and not meant cocky, or mean, just discussing......but I do not care to get into a ****-storm wire debate.....

[Aaron]

I do not care to get into a ****-storm wire debate.....
If your **** is half as nasty as your farts, I wouldn't either!

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

man, my ass is like a trumpet today. Dizzy got NOTHING on me man, NOTHING.

Every 15 minutes, like clockwork..BRRRRAAAAAANNNNNTTT

Cheers,
Russ

[nascarmann]

Monster offers good products, at reasonable prices. I'm not knocking any monster gear, BUT, If I ran a double-blind-test with 14/2 monster, and 14/2 lamp cord......You might actually choose the lamp cord......

I have not done years of testing and testing, but I will aggree with Russ on this one. This is not to say he or I am right, but I feel we try to make tooooo much out of this wire thing? 50 strand, 300 strand? Oxygen free? Copper? Silver? Gold? Does this really make a difference to our ears? Well, maybe it does, I don't know for sure? It's something "MY EARS" have a hard time hearing. OK, maybe my ears don't here it but it does make a difference? So, how much is something worth that makes sooo little difference in sound? ****, I dunno? For me, just a 12 awg wire with 50 strands is plenty good enough! If I had lots of money, I would buy this high dollar wire and coax and these 15G speakers and 20G amps and not care? But speaking for myself, if you can't "REALLY HERE IT", then what's the point? This is only MO, and by no means do I feel my say is the absolute, it is only what is right for me?

[TroyD]

I'm right there with you man.....

the "placebo effect" with wire I think gets a wee bit exaggerated in a lot of cases...

I honestly don't note much of a telling difference between the monster XP, AR 16awg and Home Depot wire that I have in various places....


Troy

[TroyD]

I was just thinking....and I am not trying to start anything.....but according to Mantis's reasoning....Polks are midfi speaks that are not neccessarily worthy of separates. If you go along with that line of reasoning, would you really be able to detect a difference in speaker wire??

BDT

[johnnyamerika]

Regarding identical AWG wire, i.e. comparing Monster 14 to Lamp Cord 14, I don't think there's any difference at all.

What you're dealing with is oxygen-free, bound copper wire in either situation....how can the properties of Monster's copper wire differ so much from the lamp cord that it changes the way signals are percieved?!?

Move up to specialty wires, audiophile grade, and there may be a sonic difference...but how much? Take a look at a wire manufacturer's site. Rarely, if ever, do you see any technical data that backs up their writen propaganda. Show me an unbaised SPL chart from 20 to 25000Hz and we'll see.

I have heard a difference going between AWG, i.e. 16 to 14. Other than that, I agree with Russ and the like.

Nevertheless, I have Monster XP 14 AWG on my system? Why, the one major difference between monster and lamp cord is it's more attractive, and the tubing build is thicker and better. Plus at 60 cents a foot, what's the big deal? :)

Over and out.

[mantis]

TroyD,
you are correct with that statement about the Polk's.I do feel that way to an extent.The rt line yes all day long the lsi and older lines of the past No I don't.

But thats not the case here, its wire.If you can't hear a Difference......then don't buy it.
Why but better amp's......can you hear a difference or is it the seperate thing your wrapped up in.Everybody talks about you need power amps to sound good.....right????
why buy the better interconnect when your gear comes with patch cords?Lamp cord , patch cords...all good ...right??

Speakers.........same thing.klh gets the job done......right you can hear it???

Ok enough with that.........here's my point.....(IF I even have one)

I personally have tested wire out my butt hole.I can hear d ifference even on Polk's with different kinds of wire.I think the brand isn't whats inportant...its what are you looking for in a wire to do???you start out with some cheap lamp cord and listen to what you know well.The change it out for some other kind of wire.Now something's different..is it better or worse???I don't know...so you try yeat another kind,and then another.......now you start learning what wire can and can not do.Sonically it makes as much of a difference as most source gear does.Almost as much as a better amp.
But sometimes it hinder's your sound and makes it sound terrible.

Here's the end of this or the short.............every componet weather it be a amp,speaker,interconnect,speaker cable,speaker,source,it's all important,none more than the other.
Debate this point........digital signal out of a cd player,can you hear a difference out of a cheap cd player and a higher quality cd player????well??? how about one amp to another???

[mantis]

I'm not done.............................................. .

lets talk more about wire..............

WIRE WIRE WIRE.

If wire isn't important to you guys..WHY TALK ABOUT IT?????
You look for answers?Tech babble?who cares?????
Home Depot......THE WIRE SPECIALIST!!!!KING OF ALL QUALITY SOUND.
I think I will run right out....throw away all my Monster and Transparent and Straight wire I own and get HOME DEPOT WIRE.
While i'm ther i will get some romex...thats wire....sounds great.......why not use that.

Another point why waste it on thick wire????????????Thin is in.......sexy right??????thin?????12 gauge, what are you trying to do???sound better than 14???are looking cool????
Be the Judge!

[RuSsMaN]

What the hell are you saying Mantis? Is it ok for a few of us to NOT see things your way on this topic?

Calm down, and go edit that post so we can make some sense of it.

Cheers,
Russ

[hoosier21]

Maybe some of the problem is Mantis was testing the wire out of his butt hole OUCH:lol: One time at band camp...

Please take this as a joke

[TroyD]

All I was asking is for some clarification of the logic.

Wire can make as much different as switching from a receiver to a decent amp?? NOPE. Dry that one out and you can fertilize the lawn with it. An under powered receiver is probably the biggest reason for poor performance and damage to systems. All parts of the system being equal? I don't really buy that either but if those are your opinions, certainly you are welcome to them but is it OK if we don't agree and can debate them?

All I'm saying is, if you can't hear an audible difference between a receiver and an amp then changing wire (monster and HD) should be a moot point as well. Using your own logic, that should be a reasonable statement. Personally, I don't buy either statement but that is my opinion. I'm just trying to understand your line of reasoning. I still stand by my statement that if you double blind test AR,monster and HD wire while they may each sound a little different, the differences would be very, very subtle.

Lastly, this is the second time you have taken a swipe at me personally and that isn't cool. If you have a problem with someone questioning your thoughts, well, that is something that I can't help YOU with. That's the LAST words that I will have on that subject because I would hope that even if we don't agree, maybe we can still all get along.

For the record, I prefer separates and can categorically say that they sound better than a reciever. My separates system is also Polk-free although maybe I will pick up a pair of powered towers later.......


Big, (maybe not so) Dumb Troy

[mantis]

Troy,
everyone is intitled to there opnion.But I hate more then anything else is people talking out there A%%.
I prove all my own statements with real world testing.Do you??Thats all I ask.Not just you but everyone.
Go experience wire amps speakers and form your own results.Lamp cord suck's...do you use it, patch cords on your seperates???well do you????
Can you belive that if you hook up your preamp and amp with a cheap patch cable and then put in a better quality cable it won't sound better(of worse)???????
Troy...listen dude I think your posts are good,funny at times.But I take my hobbie and Job very seriously.I have alot of pride in my work.
I don't talk crap or just surf around the internet.
But I can be civil, I get mad, then glad again.

[mantis]

Russman,
what do you use in your system and why?
thats all I want to know,I will tell you what I use and exactly why I use it.

[TroyD]

Oh, so you are assuming that I use patch chord and have never listened to anything else. OK.

Here it is, I use 2 (3' each) pair Signal Cables from the cd to the passive pre to the amp. Before that, I have used standard AR interconnects (2 pair), before that I used to pair of monster, and before that for a basis of comparison I used patch chord. HAPPY?

I can tell subtle differences between each, obviously the greatest differences are between the Signal Cables and the patch chord but the patch chord doesn't render the system unlistenable. For speaker wire, I have AR, monster, HD and some Monster Z cables. I will be obtaining a better quality cable at some point but for now that's just how it is...

Finally, I really hate it when folks think they know everything. I'm not saying this is your case but I have known folks that have worked at something for 20 yrs. and still were incompetent so the experience factor in an of itself proves nada.

All I'm asking is questions and presenting opinions. I do not challenge ANYONES credibility. I would ask the same courtesy in return.

Troy

[TroyD]

back to my original question......

At what point does higher quality wire become overkill with Polks??


BDT

[RuSsMaN]

Mantis, per your rquest, I have a whole house system, ht system, garage rig, guest room rig, and man-cave rig.

I wired the whole house with Home Depot 14/2 cord. All terminations are with WBT Silver solder, and gold banana wall plates.

The HT system rears are wired the same as the house system. The front stage uses Radio Shack 12/2, banana terminated (factory).

The garage rig is 16awg, lamp cord, bare wire.

The guest room rig is yet to be wired, but I will use perhaps monster (due to this debate) 14/2, and terminate with silver solder and pins.

The man cave is bi-wired with 12/4 Carol Command, bare wire, currently, and I have a pair of MIT Terminator 4 just laying around. I have not decided as to the final 'choice' for this room.

I have some Audioquest Type 4 on loan to a friend, spade term (factory).

As to why I chose said wires, hard to single out each one. The radio shack I got for cheap-cheap, so it was a no-brainer. The whole house run was kept affordable, the slightly 'exotic' MIT and Audioquest were bought used, and partially due to the manufacturers rep, and partially to the cool, 'finished' look.

Cheers,
Russ

Oh, almost forgot, my truck is wired with Monster 14/2, got it free from a friend.

Who is talking out of their ass, btw?

[nascarmann]

I say let people go buy what they want. For me, I don't need wire that someone else says is best or has this "name" on it. If the true was to be known, 95% of all speaker wire is made by 2 companies? Hell, maybe 99%?

[johnnyamerika]

>If the true was to be known, 95% of all speaker wire is made by 2 companies? Hell, maybe 99%?

Damn skippy. Exactly what I was saying about wire...do you really think one companies oxygen free copper is better than anothers?

[RuSsMaN]

Some of us do, some of us don't.

I think I'm about done with this topic.

Cheers,
Russ

[Aaron]

I think we all need to get together and have a speaker wire orgy! Then we could resolve this wire debate once and for all.

Aaron

[nascarmann]

I think we all need to get together and have a speaker wire orgy!

No thanks? I will sit this one out!;)

[Aaron]

Man, I wish "Lamp Cord" Ken was still around. He'd make this discussion extra-special.

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

Or Tony Rome for that matter......

-R

[TroyD]

Old Tony had a knack for sorting fact and fiction...


Troy

[Aaron]

Old Tony had a knack for sorting fact and fiction...
But Gold help you if you disagreed.

Aaron

[weavercr]

Kenneth Swauger, you guys wouldnt have any of your old wire from the late 70's laying around?????

[weavercr]

Mantis I am curious, Did you ever test the wire Polk sold in the late 70's and early 80's ? I like your opinion of them.

[mantis]

Good ,
I see you have tested wire...good for you.And I read correctly you want better.Thats the whole fun of it.

The point of when any speaker is getting exceeding by the quality of the wire...................very good question.
At this point money can be a starting factor.about 20 to 25 percent of the total retail cost of your speaker usually puts you in the class of wire you should be using.
Debatable but a great staring point.

[juice21]

VinnyP61 - had no idea what you were starting when you posted this, eh? :D hope you got your cables and are listening happily to your f/x300i's...

[cruiser3]

In my former life as a Ham Radio Operator that built his own receivers and transmitters, copper was still copper and silver was better and gold wire was a dream never realized. Of course the proper guage was always important as far as impedence and other electronic mumbo jumbo was concerned. Its no different in A/V systems. If you want really high tech wiring go for the gold !

[VinnyP61]

LOL I never thought this thread would go on this long LOL

BTW I am using 14 gauge thanks

[cruiser3]

:lol: I bet my gauge is bigger than yours!!!......*L*

[Aaron]

I bet my gauge is bigger than yours!!!......*L*
I bet your length is shorter than mine, too! :D

Aaron

[cgravil]

I bet my gauge is bigger than yours!!!.

I bet your length is shorter than mine, too!
Oh hell... size matters in wires too??? Damn I AM screwed...

[sgtgto]

Hi:

I have a suggestion that will make everyone feel good. If you can afford 24K wire go for it, if you use extra long battery cables and like the sound, go for it. In short, get what you can afford and live with it. If it makes you happy fine.


Gary:lol:

[joe logston]

wend people hear a differance wend they change wire is wend they move there speaker a little and moving the speakers a little is what they are hearing not the change of wires, or they had a bad connection on the hookup before they changed wires.or went to a bigger gage wire. thats my thinking.

[joe logston]

cruiser3 yes on that, wend i worked as deck hand on a yahat the owner got a cb radio and after a week it quit working, and i took it apart and the whole thing was green inside from corrosion and i ask the skipper why dosent the merine radio corrode he said that all the inside wires and eleictronics was gold plated, very expensive radios. the salt air eats up every thing else.

[weavercr]

Mantis I asked you if you tested the Polk wire in the past, late 70's eairly 80's. No answer. I was wanting your opnion on that wire?

I have tested lots of different wire and now I wish I still had access to the high tech test equipment I did in the 70/80's. I could test the inductance and capacitance along with other physical properties on different wire so I could have some hard data to compare against the sound changes.

I also have some ideals on making wire and interconnects that I want to try down the line. Too busy right now. I will start with the interconnects. I believe that more is to be gained here first because all effects are multiplied

[mantis]

Sorry dude,
No I never tested the Polk wire,I never even seen it.Have you asked them why they don't use it anymore ??Or sell it for that matter.
Most people in here think wire is a joke.Funny how most of them have no proof of there statements.They just talk about it and never take the time to experience it for themselves.I don't really care ,I stated my feelings and expereinces on wire.I have tested many different kinds over the years.Wire does make a hell of a difference.But some have no time for that......there loss.

[RuSsMaN]

I won't speak for anyone else, I believe wire can and does make a difference....

The only thing I ponder, and wish for data to prove, is that why is company A's 14awg ofc wire is better than company B's 14awg ofc wire.....

I actually looking forward to getting my Audioquest back from loan, look forward to trying Frank Dai's signal cables, even working on getting a pair of Straight Wire cables.....

Cheers,
Russ

weave, I don't think you will find many people that have heard or own the 'Polk' cable, apparently it use was far from widespread, and production run very short... I'd be interested to hear Polk's take on it though.....

[TroyD]

Agreed, Russmasterflex

I don't think that anyone is really saying that there isn't a difference.....we are just looking for some of this supposed data supporting some of the claims.

BDT

[mantis]

What is the data going to prove,
If it doen't sound better,different,worse,whatever it doen't matter anyway.
Ok,
if you listen to Monstercables m950i interconnect and compare it to transparent's Musiclink interconnect and hear a bigger soundstage,more detail to the music,greater dynamic's and softer bass responce that sounds like the music sounds natural,airy,full of life.Then put the Monster back in it's place and hear high inpack bass,higher pitched trebble,sharper sounding high hats.
Now in your post you want to know why one sounds better than the other.It's personall what one you like better but Transparent will tell you exactly why there wires are better than Anyones elses on the market at any price.Monster will tell you why there wires are as good as they are.The technology is on there web sites.As well as other wire manufactors.
If you really want to know, go visit there warehouse and see for your self.Meet with a rep,call them on the phone.You can find the other answers you seek.
I have spoke/trained/visited many companies and saw first hand/learned first hand.I can't tech you, you need to experience this on your own.
I still believe that your ears are all the proof you need.

[mantis]

Here is all I will give you.
Monster puts alot of time and efford into there magnaflex tubing.There is a big reason for this.They have many different things they do to there cables to make them better.Shielding is a big factor.
Transparent puts there focus on there network bricks.They make a great cable without the bricks buts the bricks bring everything together.Visit there website, request some lit and they will tell you all about it.I have been trained on both companies.they are different in what they do.They both make excellent cables.Transparent are more musicial and detailed.Refined if you will.Monster is more about slam mode and extra life in the sound.

They both told me that there wire is the best and had plenty of proof to back it up.But in the end i desided what cable/wires I liked better.

[RuSsMaN]

I to believe your ears are all the proof you need.

In the above comparision, which cable sounds 'true' and correct, or are they simply adding their own 'color' to the recording? (which some may find pleasing, but does not prove it moves the audio signal better)

I just find it odd that no cable company EVER has published a double-blind-test to show that their cable does sound better (to most people).

Pepsi challenge if you will.....

Cheers,
Russ

[mantis]

The last thing I have to say,
just take 2 different companies wire that claim to be good quality.Listen to those wires and hear foryourself.then you will see.Then find out why the 2 wires sounded different, what made one sound one way and the other the other.
Please post some results of YOUR demoing of wire instead of beating a dead horse with all the questions.
I remember one of you posting this wire thing needs to die or something like that, but you guys still insist on talking about it.Go do it, then talk.

[mantis]

Russman,
yes they have.Years ago Monstercable came down to BrynMawr and took the Pepsi challenge.
Home Theater magazine did a wire shoot out years ago.There was alot of different kinds of wire tested against each other.Monstercable won that contest for overall better wire.If i find it, which I have it somewhere in my archive,In will post the year and month and maybe they can send you a copy of it.

[RuSsMaN]

Now we are getting down to the data, don't bust your balls looking for it, anything at any time is fine....

If it was a true blind test, I am very interested in hearing more about it....

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

Here, I think, is the disconnect.

First, I am of the opinion that wire shouldn't have a sound at all. It should be completely neutral. I generally feel this way about amps, preamps, speakers and sources as I want to hear what, say, Chris Rea intended. Not Mr. Carver, Mr. Polk, Mr. Dahlquist etc etc. had in mind. To my mind anything introduced is distortion, as little as possible please. This explains my fascination with a passive preamp.

What I want to see is if there is data supporting this, is there less distortion? Does a particular wire improve frequency response? ETC....

If there is NOT any supporting data then I am forced to conclude that it is a subjective matter of preference. Exactly like do you prefer Yamaha or Denon or Onkyo or Marantz etc etc.

This is, I feel, the case due to the lack of supporting evidence. Which is fine and that being true, no one is qualified to say that one is better than the other.

As I said before, Bob Carver did a double blind test with amps and proved that folks generally couldn't distinguish, reliably, between his amps and others (I think it was Levinson amps). Anyone have or know where this white paper is??

Troy

I am out of this discussion

[mantis]

No ,
but I would like to read it.Bob Carver has lots of respect from me.He has done some thing's for the industry I just flat out respect.
TroyD the only thing you need to do is just hear it for yourself.You can believe what you believe.If tech spec's are more inportant than real world sound quality then thats your thing.I will agree with your points that speakers,amps, preamps, wire shouldn't change the sound, being pure passthough as you will.But thats not the really real world.No speaker company has designed a perfect speaker, being able to cove the audio spectrum flat.Nor has any amp, preamp or cable for that matter.
But wire companies try there very best to achive this very goal you have.Reproducing the sound with as little color as possible.Some do it better than other's.
Here's what I hear in different wires with different gear including speakers.Some speakers tend to be bright,some amps are close to nutral a cable speaker and interconnect can help tame down the brightness in the speaker.It goes both ways wire can add brightness bass to a system to help or hinder(as Aaron calls it Mantis Matching Law).This is not a tech spec technic, it's a listening experience.Thats what I et along with a list of other thing's with wire.Just like the powered tower bi wiring thing.The real question is did it make an audio difference.You can physically bi wire any speaker with 2 sets of binding post's, but by doing this will there be an audio sound difference.
I'm not arguing your points,let them stand as they are.I can accept them.These are my points.

[TroyD]

Cool, I can accept that. I just wanted to clarify my points......

Lastly, and this isn't wire specific, I want to clear the air about the general nature of posts here of late. It seems that they have taken a rather less than friendly tone and it's bothering me. I would propose that we all leave our attitudes at the door and try to respect each others opinions (this is a subjective hobby and we are dealing with opinion 98% of the time) a little more. I have no problem with disagreements but I find (myself included) the posts are becoming more antagonistic in nature and it makes we want to participate less.

Obviously, there are folks, like mantis, who do this for a living and there are other folks who don't have the experience. Point is, everyones opinion should be respected. We can discuss, debate whatever but I would ask that we each respect each others opinions. To be honest, if this trend continues it is going to drive folks away and then what does that prove?

Rodney King

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

16 guage lowes speaker wire...hahahahahaha...sounds just like monster cable too me..LOL!