McIntosh MC250 / Rotel RB1090 & price difference

[pearsall001]

I've been looking at both these amps & I really have to wonder if the Mac is worth $2100 difference. The Mac is 250wpc, the Rot is 380wpc. Specs look pretty similar. I haven't listened to either yet, that's my next step. For that much $ difference what should I look for to give them a fair comparison. I'm kind of thinking that if the Mac isn't heads above the Rot then the $ difference isn't worth it. What do you think?

[gregure]

McIntosh are built like tanks, so that's one plus. I think they sound great, but if I was going to spend that kind of money, I'd go Krell and never look back. I think they're more about R&D and cutting edge, whereas McIntosh still has the same style, and in my opinion are resting on their laurels a bit, as comfortable as that may be. I would let your ears do the choosing. If you can hear the difference, and would regret the loss if you go with Rotel, pony up for the McIntosh. If the difference is neglible, I think you have your answer. Another thread recently had a lot of people chiming in about the Krell KAV400xi integrated at 200wpc, and almost everyone seemed to think it sounded better than a Rotel stack with a much more powerful amp. There's just something about Krell...Rotel is decent stuff, but you could certainly do better.

[dorokusai]

Be different, be an individual, go Mac.

MacIntosh is as cutting edge as the next piece of gear internally, the styling is what sets them apart. The look has nothing to do with the guts.

[hoosier21]

I think you will buy the Rotel

[mantis]

Do you own speakers that warrants this high end of an amp?

Rotel isn't no where near in the same league as McIntosh. terrible your comparing them.

Do what you must.

Dan

[pearsall001]

Do you own speakers that warrants this high end of an amp?

Rotel isn't no where near in the same league as McIntosh. terrible your comparing them.

Do what you must.

Dan

I thought I asked a fairly simple question. BTW what league does the difference of $2100 put me in? Your feedback is absolutely useless. Thanks anyway.

[audiobliss]

Haha. I thought it was quite adequate. At least considering the given information.

[Zero]

Pear

That was a pretty harsh response to Mantis. Ask a simple question - get a simple answer. I understand you may wish to know the differences of the amps only, but the information you have given is still inadequate because quite frankly it boils down to the speakers you are using. There are many instances when Rotel would be the better choice.

I do not have much experience with McIntosh so I'll stay outta this one. All I know about them from friends is that their customer service is top notch. How many companies are out there that give you the assurance you will be taken care of for not only something you just bought from them, but something you can hand down to your kids - etc, all knowing that as long as Mc is around - they will be there for you. Will Rotel do that? Nope.

[miner]

The RB-1090 is arguably the best amp under $2500 according to Stereophile. Only your ears can answer your question.

[Joey_V]

Here's what I noticed - most people on the Polk forum prefer the Krell 400xi to the Rotel RB1090 while on the MartinLoganOwners forum, most prefer the Rotel RB1090 to the Krell 400xi.

Sometimes I feel that people put in their 2 cents even if they havent heard the product and they only go by the name brand.... oh, it's a krell - it MUST be good. I value the opinions of those who heard the amps and dont merely go by the name on the front faceplate.

I guess different strokes for different folks.

As for the Mcintosh.... I havent heard one nor have I even seen one in person so I'll leave that to the others.

Joey

[scottyf]

If you can afford the Mac, you should listen to it. Compare it for yourself. If you can't, then you definitely should NOT compare the two. It might cost you an extra 2k you don't have!

Ultimately, your ears will determine what sounds best to you. NOS Russian 6DJ8's go for $15-$25. I am willing to pay an extra $80-100 a tube for NOS Amperex USN 7308's. To me, there is enough difference that scrounge everywhere I can to get more of these tubes to stock away (and sell off all my backup equipment, plus a couple of bikes!) You might feel differently if you compared the two.

I would be interested to hear what you think after listening to them both.

(For what it's worth, I am willing to spend the extra money over the Rotel, but for me it's a Alta Vista modded Counterpoint amp. But that's just me!)

[mantis]

I thought I asked a fairly simple question. BTW what league does the difference of $2100 put me in? Your feedback is absolutely useless. Thanks anyway.

You didn't give enough Info to respond any further then I did. I have experience with both products but can't help you any without knowing what speakers your trying to power.

Comparing 2 amps with what ?

Whatever

[dave shepard]

Mantis's reply is spot on, you do not and should not pair the Mac with anything less then a high quality speaker because you just will not get to fully appreciate the quality of such a piece. You will will get better sound quality but will never get to experiance the full potential that it has to offer. If it helps the Mac is made from start to finish in the USA and all Mac dealers will go to great lengths to make you happy with our purchase from audition to purchase to after sale assistance. The equipment is dead quiet at all volumes the sound is extreamly accurate, all you will hear is every instrument being played and nothing else, from low to high volumes the sound will not change just the volume. The one thing that I have found with my audition (all Mac set-up) when I played Little Big Town's "Boondocks" I could visulize exactly where every singer and instrument was comming from where they were standing and the bango plucking..... I swear I felt just how hard the string was being pulled before it was plucked, just breath taking, for me atleast. So could you get that same experiance from a $800-1000pr set of speakers? NO,
but the sound you will hear will be better then what you are currently using I'm sure. Which would I'm sure at some point lead you to retire your current speakers to ones that would give you that.

just my 2 cents
Dave

[venomclan]

It is very difficult to compare amps without knowing the tonal signiture of your speakers. Amps have different tonal qualities and should be matched to the right speakers. It is possible to have a great amp and great speakers that do not sound good together. Synergy is the key. Macs and Rotels tend to be on the warm side while Krell can be a bit forward sounding. The Mac is a higher end amp than Rotel, but it might be a moot point depending on what speakers you hook them to.
Venom

[pearsall001]

Sorry guys for not including the speakers I am currently running. I just didn't stop to think that they are such a meaningfull piece for the amp selection process. Apparently you guys set me straight & I greatly appreciate that. I copied a very detailed description on the AAD 2001 Monitors below. With info at hand please reply back w/ your recommemdations. I know it's lenghty but well worth the read. Check out the site where I bought them. Steve carries a excellent selection of hi-end gear, including Polk. Thanks

www.QUESTFORSOUND.COM
sorry I can't provide the link / I tried but couldn't figure out how.


2001 Monitors
Sensitivity (2.83v@ 1 meter) 86 dB
Impedance 8 Ohm
Frequency Response 30 Hz-30kHz
Crossover Frequency 2.5 Hz
Recommended
Amplifier Power (Watt) 50-300
Dimensions (HxWxD) 325x140x330mm / 13x9x13
Net weight (Per speaker) 21 Kg / 46lb.

The 2000 series loudspeakers are compact high performance systems matched to the finest audio components. Every single component was chosen carefully to enhance the sonic purity. The goal was to make a family of speakers that could convey every musical nuance beyond what is currently considered state of the art in small monitors.

The 2000 Tweeter
At the heart of this transducer is a pure aluminum diaphragm , perfectly formed into a one-piece dome and voice-coil former. The coil is wound onto the diaphragm itself with exacting precision. This eliminates a critical bond between the coil and dome usually found in typical dome drivers. The advantage apart from improved transient ability and smoother, consistent frequency response is the additional benefit of reduced voice-coil operating temperature as head generated in the coil is able to radiate out from the dome itself. Lower coil temperatures greatly benefit dynamic linearity in transducer systems resulting in more faithful performance of the music.

The high flux, shielded magnet system provides a linear magnet field to the voice-coil which is immersed in a low viscosity magnetic liquid which is suspended in the magnet gap. This fluid allows the efficient thermal transfer of heat generated in the coil to the surrounding structure. The addition of this fluid gives almost 10 times greater power handling on peak input. This tweeter is able to withstand short term transients in excess of 5,000 watts.

The diaphragm is loaded into a short exponential horn with a low compression ratio so distortion is extremely low. PA horns tend to have a high compression ratio which is needed to achieve higher efficiencies at the sacrifice of increased "throat distortion" caused by saturation of the air-load in the throat (or entrance) of the horn. The length of the horn coincides with the acoustic center of the 150mm woofer. That is that both the woofer and tweeter voice coil are in the same vertical plane so that there is no time difference between the path lengths to the listener. This gives a more linear phase alignment at the crossover band.

The horn itself is made from a marine grade molybdenum chrome alloy a material that is used in deep sea applications where structural integrity is paramount. This horn's high-mass structure is totally non resonant and extremely rigid so transients are reproduced perfectly. It's highly polished surface is plated with titanium nitride which is harder than tool steel so it will always maintain its flawless luster.

The magnet assembly is further mass enhanced by a 3mm lead disc fitted to the magnet shield. The added mass plus additional mechanical damping to this transducer put it in a class of its own for speed and definition.


The 2000 woofer
The 2000 woofer has a hard anodized aluminum cone and dust cap. Aluminum was the choice of material for a few reasons. First it has a good stiffness to mass ratio and can stay in a "pistonic" mode to a much higher frequency that just about any other material. Also, putting a thick ceramic anodized layer of aluminum oxide on the surface, the diaphragm is further rigidified with the benefit of the two differential sonic velocities in the material giving the cone a self damping characteristic as one material puts a damping constraint on the other.

Secondly aluminum has excellent heat transfer ability so the voice-coil can transfer heat up into the cone and then into the surrounding air-load. Ideally voice-coil temperature should remain as constant as possible to the ambient air temperature. However in the real world even a 50 watt power input on some voice-coils can send the temperature up 200° C within a minute or so. If the coil material is made of copper, the result can be 6dB loss in audible compression. This is known as power compression and is a major obstacle in transducer design where dynamics are concerned. This can be a very complex subject as it involves the thermal cycle of temperature rise and fall as the musical signal is transferred as power to the voice-coil. Each driver has its own parameters of a thermal cycle and is time and frequency dependant.

The third advantage that aluminum has is its acoustic opaqueness. The cone will displace air on both sides, so the acoustic output is almost equal and opposite on either side. The rear of the cone output is only used when aligned in a vented box for low frequency reinforcement. Other than that the mid range output can cause a great deal of coloration when it filters through the enclosure panels. Some of this energy is reflected off the enclosure walls and can actually penetrate through the cone itself. Aluminum has a greater opaqueness compared to any other suitable cone material resulting in improved transparency.

One of the major disadvantages of any stiff material is that when cone breakup occurs, the energy released at that point in the frequency band can be high enough to be well above the average output in the spectrum, sometimes higher than 12dB. This would certainly cause problems and additional electrical filtering may not totally eliminate this.

The AAD 2000 series woofer has a unique cone geometry which allows it to stay pistonic in its operational band and produce a very flat frequency response. Above this frequency range at 2.6 kHz the acoustic output falls off rapidly at 18db/octave. So that all cone breakup modes are severely attenuated even without filtering.

The woofer frame is die-cast from magnesium aluminum alloy. The frame has excellent rigidity and heat sinking characteristics. It has additional ventilation for heat generated in the voice-coil.

The oversized 34mm voice coil has substantial power handing . it is wound directly onto a 0.3mm black anodized ventilated aluminum coil former. This former is bonded to the cone using specifically designed heat conducting adhesive so that the whole coil-former and cone assembly acts as a heat radiator. This means the operating temperature of the voice-coil is reduced to its absolute minimum, giving are far greater dynamic range.

The large and powerful magnet assembly is shielded. It also has a 3mm lead disc fitted to it to reduce mechanical resonance.

The rubber surround and large excursion spider/damper will not fatigue under normal operating conditions. These components will actually improve with age and it is recommended that the speakers are run in for 200 hours before they start to sound at their best.


The 2000 Crossover
The back-plate is manufactured from non-magnetic stainless steel and holds the crossover components, terminals and vent in one assembly. The whole structure is dense, rigid and non resonant as it is a major part of the enclosure.

The massive air core inductors are wound directly onto the gas-flowed vent. These are low loss inductors and their resistance is almost negligible, necessary to control both transducers effectively. High-grade 400 volt polypropylene film capacitors are used throughout the circuits. All resistors are either 10 or 20 watt rating, well above what is actually required.

The terminals are custom AAD design and feature a special one-way torque setting engineered into a proprietary key.


The 2000 Enclosures
All 2000 enclosures are made from MDF 25 mm thick on front and back and 38 mm thick on sides. All enclosures use internal braces 25mm thick. Lead sheet 3mm thick is applied to each panel before assembly to further reduces panel coloration. All metal parts such as grilles, screws and inserts are custom AAD parts made from stainless steel.

Each enclosure is laminated in the most finest of exotic wood veneers and hand rubbed before lacquering.


QC & Final Inspection
Each 2000 speaker is built by hand with great care and attention. Each individual component is checked for total quality before assembly. All electrical components in the crossovers are individually measured for the exact value. Soldering is done with special care ensuring that every single electrical joint is flawless using 4% silver solder.

Before packing each loudspeaker is measured against our reference standard to be within 1 dB of the reference curve. It is also auditioned using a high grade audio source with wide dynamic and frequency program material.


STANDS LIST FOR $1200 A PAIR ...EXTRA

[Hawkeye]

I replaced a B&K 2220 with a Mac MC352. I'm driving Paradigm Signature S8's with it. I listened to the Krells & Johnson's. Personally didn't care for the sound of the other 2 with my speakers. The Mac brought my speaks to life! the bottom end was so much fuller than the B&K. Mids and highs jump off the front of the speaker.

Only you can decide if something is worth the price. When you hear a fine sounding amp, you'll know it, My wife said " How much for the Mac?" After putting it in, she said, "worth it".

[mantis]

Sinse we got off on the wrong foot, allow me to try to get us back on the right foot.

The speakers are nice and both amps can power them with no problem. You will need them when you demo both amps. Forget about the spec's and price for a moment and listen. This will help you better decide which amp is the better choice. Most likely the Mac will out perfrom the Rotel in every way but that doesn't mean the Rotel may not be to your liking. Rotel and Mac sound very different. Preference will decide for you.

Good luck,

Dan
(I favor the Mac here)

[pearsall001]

Thanks for the response, bye the way both feet are fine. You learn something new every day. I just didn't realize the importance of the speakers when amp shopping. I called a few Mac dealers & they would love for me to bring in my speakers. One dealer carries Mac, Bryston, Musical Fidelity, should be a lot of fun listening. If that's not enough I have been reading very excellent reviews on a new company called Nu Force. They actually design their own digital amps w/ patented technology they developed. Their amps going head to head w/ megs buck amps did extremely well in all aspects. Something else to ckeck into?