Bi-Wire Worth the effort?

[haveyouever]

Does anyone have experience with bi-wiring the Polk Lsi Series speakers?

I've finally finished my speaker wiring for my HT system. I took my time and completed the wiring last month. Not a single wire/cable is visible by the eye... all routed through the wall keeping 110V wiring at a distance! I have the following speaker array:

Front: Polk Lsi15s
Center: Polk LsiC
Surrounds: 2 X LsiFX
Denon 4806
Anthem Statement A5

The question is?.... Would I gain that much by bi-wiring these Polk Lsi series speakers??... which would equate to some extra work in regards to pulling wiring!! And this is not a walk in the park by any means... I have two outside walls to deal with??... your thoughts?

[speakergeek]

Search the forum. In general, some say you will hear a difference, and some say you won't. Not sure it would be worth the effort and expense in your case.

[Dennis Gardner]

Not worth the effort unless you intend to bi-amp, then I would still think twice about it, in your case.

[dorokusai]

Nope.

[Emlyn]

I found no benefit to biwiring or biamplifying LSi15's. Even with 800 watts going to each speaker, they sounded no different than sending them 200 watts each.

[haveyouever]

Thanks Guys!... I appreciate your prompt feedback!!... we really enjoy our current setup and with a little help from the polk knowledge base, plan on keeping it that way for the time being!!... have a great evening!!!... thomas

[F1nut]

Try changing the metal plate jumpers to the same wire as you're using for cables. I believe you will hear a difference.

[MrNightly]

Try changing the metal plate jumpers to the same wire as you're using for cables. I believe you will hear a difference.

Really? Why is this? i've never heard about this before... Do expound on the topic :)

[BobMcG]

What effort?:confused:












Some extra money yeah, but what effort?;)

[F1nut]

Really? Why is this? i've never heard about this before... Do expound on the topic :)
The cables make better conductors than those cheap plated bars. Plenty of info here about jumpers.

[Giuseppe]

Hey I am just wondering what the problem is with keeping 110V wiring at a distance? You said "all routed through the wall keeping 110V wiring at a distance!" It may be a stupid question. My guess is that A) Fire hazard or B) some kind of sound distortion???

[mantis]

When I owned the Lsi's I perferred them Bi wired. I used a Double run Shotgun 8tc 8tc bi wires. I felt it made a noticable difference in overall sound quality and I never went back. I did however always wanted to try 1 level higher 2 conductor with replaced jumpers of that level wire vs the Bi wires. It was a question for me that went unanswered. I never got to do the demo.
I actually got new speakers.

Why not try it. You can sit in your home and listen to a pair of bi wires vs a single run. Try the same brand same quality and then try a higher end cable and see what it sounds like.

Good luck,

Dan

[haveyouever]

All your residential electric power generated in North America is 60-Hz alternating current (AC). This means both the voltage and current are sinusoidally varying (change polarity twice in each cycle or 120 times every second). OK!... stay with me now!!!... Any electric conductor, with voltage flowing through it, has what is called a magnetic field of flux surrounding it! Some more, some less...If your run your speaker wire next to any AC source - hence – 110Volt AC house wiring, you may/will induce what is called an EMF(Electro Magnetic Force) into your speaker wire. Your ear would pick it up as static and/or noise in your speaker! The cycling of this field of flux and induction of an EMF in another wire, is basically how a transformer steps up and steps down voltage based on the number of windings per stage.

Now, what this all means toward your question is keeping your wiring out of this so called critical path(Field of Flux), so you reduce the chances of inducing an EMF in your speaker wiring. There are different schools of thought of how far this magnetic flux actually expands from any low or high voltage wire. Personally, I have found with 110AC that about 6 inches away with well shielded wire is enough to sustain a good signal to your speakers. If you need to cross any AC wiring in a wall of your house, cross at a 90 degree angle. This reduces the area proportional to the transfer.

As Eddy Murphy would say!!... It’s as simple as that???

I hope this helps!!

[amulford]

Good explanation.

No to the original question.

[F1nut]

Of course, one could buy nice shielded cables and not worry about RF and EMI.

[dragon1952]

I'm curious as to what the Lsi manual says about bi-wiring. Both my Paradigm Studio series and Vandersteen manuals highly recommend bi-wiring. I know some will say that's just the speaker companies coddling to the masses but I don't really buy that.

[haveyouever]

Don't fool yourself?... it's not as simple as nice shielded cables???... unless you plan on connecting your shields to ground at the source?... and what audio cable company takes that into consideration?

[haveyouever]

Good explanation.

No to the original question.

Ya!... sorry!!.. I should know better... being that I started this thread... just trying to address a concerned polk member!!

[F1nut]

The ones with directional arrows on them.

[*Seby*-Polk-]

hey...people....What's the principal advantage to use bi-wired speakers ????

[dragon1952]

Basically you're bypassing the crossover network....or at least part of it depending on your speaker configuration.

[fshan]

All your residential electric power generated in North America is 60-Hz alternating current (AC). This means both the voltage and current are sinusoidally varying (change polarity twice in each cycle or 120 times every second). OK!... stay with me now!!!... Any electric conductor, with voltage flowing through it, has what is called a magnetic field of flux surrounding it! Some more, some less...If your run your speaker wire next to any AC source - hence – 110Volt AC house wiring, you may/will induce what is called an EMF(Electro Magnetic Force) into your speaker wire. Your ear would pick it up as static and/or noise in your speaker! The cycling of this field of flux and induction of an EMF in another wire, is basically how a transformer steps up and steps down voltage based on the number of windings per stage.

Now, what this all means toward your question is keeping your wiring out of this so called critical path(Field of Flux), so you reduce the chances of inducing an EMF in your speaker wiring. There are different schools of thought of how far this magnetic flux actually expands from any low or high voltage wire. Personally, I have found with 110AC that about 6 inches away with well shielded wire is enough to sustain a good signal to your speakers. If you need to cross any AC wiring in a wall of your house, cross at a 90 degree angle. This reduces the area proportional to the transfer.

As Eddy Murphy would say!!... It’s as simple as that???

I hope this helps!!


Very, very good explanation. Except the part about grounding the shield at one end and one end only. Something you knew quite obviously. (but can't be left out.

[FicmanS]

I didn't notice any big difference in my setup...

[DarqueKnight]

There are different schools of thought of how far this magnetic flux actually expands from any low or high voltage wire.

Magnetic field strength can be measured quite accurately with a Gauss meter. There are different types of meters depending on what type of energy source (high voltage line, house AC wiring, etc.) is generating the field.

Power companies have to accurately measure the magnetic field strength of high voltage lines because of the danger of high currents being induced in metallic surfaces (truck doors, uninsulated wire, etc.). There are quite a few cases of a power company employee or contractors being "electrocuted by induction" when they touched a conductive metal surface or object that was in the magnetic field of a nearby high voltage line.

With regard to your bi-wiring question, I have found that any improvements heard depended on the amps more than the wire.

[haveyouever]

Very, very good explanation. Except the part about grounding the shield at one end and one end only. Something you knew quite obviously. (but can't be left out.

Yes!... my man!!... very good point!!!

[haveyouever]

[QUOTE=With regard to your bi-wiring question, I have found that any improvements heard depended on the amps more than the wire.[/QUOTE]

Darqueknight!... Please elaborate a little more!!... with my a/v receiver, amp and speakers left constant... does the removal of the jumpers and replacement of biwire to say my fronts and center make a difference?...

[F1nut]

I'm curious, have you any experience with shielded cables? What speaker cables are you running thru the walls? Why not try replacing the jumpers first to see if that makes a difference?

[reeltrouble1]

Yea, F1, I mean its not like you have any experience in bi-wiring now.:) Or using cables for that matter.;)

I dont have a clue with regard to bi-wiring LSI. My guess is though that you should do it and be done with the issue or you will have to find another way to quiet the voices because we NEVER agree on this. It nots going to take much to try using wire instead of the flat little yellow metal colored plate.

They are transmission lines of course they make a difference.


RT1

[DarqueKnight]

Darqueknight!... Please elaborate a little more!!... with my a/v receiver, amp and speakers left constant... does the removal of the jumpers and replacement of biwire to say my fronts and center make a difference?...

It depends on your ears, the amps, speakers, and wire used and on the synergy among the components. Here's are a couple of links:

My bi-wire adventure:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9914

My bi-amp adventure:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10191

[haveyouever]

It depends on your ears, the amps, speakers, and wire used and on the synergy among the components. Here's are a couple of links:

My bi-wire adventure:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9914

My bi-amp adventure:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10191

Thanks big guy!... that really help... best regards!!... thomas

[F1nut]

So, what experience with shielded cables do you have and what speaker cables are you running thru the walls?

[dragon1952]

I think he should bi-wire with experienced shielded speaker cables running through his walls.

[TroyD]

Hmmmm...it would seem F1Nut has a question that someone doesn't want to answer.........

BDT

[haveyouever]

Hmmmm...it would seem F1Nut has a question that someone doesn't want to answer.........

BDT

Good Observation... Sorry!!... I was trying to keep the thread focused on my original question and not on me?...

In regards to shielded cable experience, I've been in the controls industry since 1979. I started with the Thermodynamics Research Center at Texas A&M University and I have been very fortunate to have crossed the Aviation industry, Space Industry and now the Oil Industry within my career. I am presently consulting for Granherne, Inc. in Houston, TX (Halliburton/KBR!!). My current title is Senior Consultant, where I have had the opportunity to trouble shoot/design onshore/offshore control systems for the last 15 years. Controls have a simple rule - your DCS/PLC control system is as good as it's calibrated field devices. Hence, shielded cables between end devices and the control room DCS/PLC are a critical path to the refinery process. Normally, this would be based on a 24Volt 4-20mA Control Loops (Process Integral Derivative (PID) Loops!!). I also have extensive experience with the shielding of subsea umbilicals for 100 mile offsets. The attenuation is a monster and shielding plans a big role in it’s design.

Now, with all that being said... you asked??... … it's your environment that dictates your shielding requirements. One member posted the comment "effort?" well, my HT room backs up to my kitchen. I have 240 Volt wiring in this wall for my girl friends double racked stove???? … it’s worth every penny!!!, not to mention the five!!... yes! Five!!! fire breaks... in this wall. Needles to say, a good shielded cable is a must – plus the effort required to re-route these cables. Which, brings me back to me original question that started the tread?... Is Biwiring Worth the Effort?

IMO, it didn't really make any difference. If you have a good amp driving your speakers, adding more copper between them didn't seem to make any difference??... :)…

[haveyouever]

Ooops!... sorry!!... got lost in my bio!!!... :)... here's what I am using for my in-wall wiring... http://www.iecables.com/cab002-14spshpl.html... and yes!... I know I don't need the plenum protection but, I got a good deal on it!!... best regards!!... thomas

[Hoop]

Couple of things in all the technical mumbo jumbo being bantered about.

P in PID is 'proportional'. (Or as a whole it could mean process and instrumentation diagram as well.)

You cross cables at a 90* angle, not to reduce the 'contact area' but because the induced current is generated in the same direction as the original current.

Bonus: (not mentioned in this topic but commonly misunderstood) It's concrete, not cement. Cement is one of the four primary ingredients in concrete. The others are water, coarse aggregate (rock), and fine aggregate (sand). You may have air entraining agents, plasticizers, etc. but they're in minute quantities and aren't a necessary part of the recipe.

[F1nut]

Ok boys, you duke it out. I still say with a good shielded cable it doesn't matter.

What will make a difference is replacing the stock jumpers.

[haveyouever]

No Duking it out here!!!... thanks Hoop!!... your right, it's been a while... :)... you cross at a 90 degree angle for both reasons!!!...

Good Bonus Recipe... now, is your bonus deal at your every day low price?

[Hoop]

I'm no electrical engineer (civil), but I have a lot of controls and systems in my business. I've tried to learn a few things as I went along.

Lots of other good information here though.

Yep, every day low price... free. (I hope you get more than you paid for)