weavercr
05-15-2002, 04:27 PM
Let me say there is a Difference in wire. But at what point is it cost effective.
The Best wire I have ever heard cost me 2.00 a ft in 1979/80. reindex for inflation 4.68.
It still one of the best out there even today.
That was before the big wire war and overpricing and Hype.
Here is an interesting magazine articale I will repost it even clains there is a difference but not that great of one:
AUDIO CABLES-THE ULTIMATE TEST OF INTEGRITY
There is no subject or component category that has been as revealing of the magazines', and their reviewers', (lack of) integrity as audio cables. In less than 20 years audio cables have gone from an afterthought to a major investment in most systems. The prices have also skyrocketed from less than $ 50 to many thousands for the (so-called) "best".
Simultaneously, the cable companies have slowly become some of the largest advertisers in almost every audio magazine. In return, these magazines have published 'reviews', and "recommendations", of the "better known" (most heavily advertised) brands and models. Meanwhile...
Virtually nothing else has been printed about audio cables by them. (There is one magazine, The Audio Critic, that claims that all cables sound the same. They don't receive cable advertising.) So, one may ask, where is the problem with the magazines' self-proclaimed integrity? They're honest and open, aren't they?
Well, prepare yourself for a totally new perspective about audio cables and the audio magazines:
LACK OF BASIC INFORMATION
I used the expression "cable companies" in the above paragraph. Did you think it was an oversight on my part that I didn't use the word "manufacturer" instead? After all, that is the word that all the magazines (and the 'reviewers') use, or at least imply. I didn't use it for a very good reason: It is not true. What is the truth? That's very simple:
Virtually every cable company you have ever heard of (or ever will hear of) does NOT make its own cables.
Are you surprised, or even shocked by this statement? Don't worry, I was too, and remember, I have been in the audio business for more than 20 years. In fact, I even discovered (from the actual manufacturers) that many cable companies don't even design their own cables. They just choose among different designs, materials, colors, terminations and the overall volume (total length). Then they are quoted a price, and that's it. Some companies may do some custom terminations at their "factory", but that's all the "manufacturing" they'll ever do.
The magazines (and their 'reviewers') know all of this of course, but they make sure that their readers don't. Why do they suppress such basic information from their own subscribers?
The magazines realize that the word "Manufacturer" implies huge initial expenditures and investments of time and money, plus true size and importance. Simply ordering 50 or 100 pairs of cable from some large, 50-year old manufacturing plant, at their normal volume discount, doesn't even begin to convey the same image of scale, the same sense of expertise and commitment, or earn the same amount of respect or prestige, does it?
It's obvious that anyone with some money to invest can do the same thing. Magazines don't want their readers to think that any of their advertisers are just "anyone". The only serious monetary "investments" any of these cable companies will ever make is in "marketing" their products.
LACK OF PROPER AND THOROUGH TESTING
Unlike most other components, audio cables are easy to compare with each other, and now even with a "straight bypass" (a direct connection of two components that bypasses the cables). It should be obvious to all that the closer any cable is to the bypass, the better that cable must be.
One cable company, Wireworld, came out with the Comparator, a device which allows any particular cable to be compared with both a "bypass" position and one other cable. They use it themselves at audio shows, and a few of their larger retailers also use it. (Audio 'reviewers' always avoid the Comparator at shows, during public hours, for fear of exposure.) There is another, older device, the ABX switcher, which also makes it very easy and convenient to compare cables with each othernot against a pure bypass.
How many magazines use these informative devices, including the (free for them) Wireworld Comparator, with its ultra-revealing bypass position? Easy answer: None of them! A few 'reviewers' used the Comparator once, when reviewing some of Wireworld's cable, and never mentioned it again.
Even when they did use the Comparator, the results were always "inconclusive"; all the cables just happened to be "equally different" from the bypass.
The fact that the magazines refuse to even make these simple tests, let alone publish the results, is irrefutable evidence of their continual efforts to protect the inferior models. This means the "inferiors" will still be able to sell their products, give away "review samples" and pay their bills, most importantly their numerous advertising (AKA protection) invoices.
LACK OF COST/PRICE INQUIRY
As we enter this new decade, it is no longer even slightly surprising to see cables for thousands of dollars, even for short lengths. Some cables are now above $ 10,000 a pair. Just 15 years ago, the most expensive cables were all $ 200 or even less, and some of them even used pure silver. So what has happened?
Well, the cable companies discovered that some customers were prepared to pay more, a lot more. Even more important, they also found out that the magazines never questioned, let alone challenged, the prices they charged; $ 500, $ 1,000, $ 2,000, $ 5,000 etc. (Retailers weren't complaining either with this new development; A $ 200 sale became a $ 2,000 sale!)
No one, not even those cable companies that didn't advertise, was ever asked to justify their prices. It didn't matter what the cable was made of, or its build quality, or its terminations etc. No questions asked. Why?
The magazines are afraid, almost to the point of terror, that the readers/customers will discover that the markups on cables are now very similar to those on "illegal drugs", over 1,000%! The outraged reader may even lose his Audio Faith. (See the next subject below.)
LACK OF PRICE/PERFORMANCE COMPARISONS
The magazines' "don't ask, don't tell" policy doesn't stop there. For further protection, they will not even compare any of the (now rare) reasonably priced cables to any of the high-priced models, unless they already know that they are inferior (a fix). Why?
The magazines know that if even one low-priced cable is better, the entire myth that all high-quality cables must also be high-priced will be shattered, permanently.
The magazines have never compromised their "total package of protection" for the cable companies. That's why there exists today a "reference speaker cable", with "rave reviews", from a very well known "manufacturer", which retails at $ 9,500 for an 8' pair, while his own cost is less than $ 100 from the real cable manufacturer, and he can still "sleep like a baby". (Yes, under $ 100 dollars, including terminations!)
SUMMARY
The audio magazines, self-described as "your friends in the audio world", have shown a strange method of demonstrating their "friendship". They have allowed and even contributed to the illusion that ordinary individuals are actually large and serious "manufacturers". They have avoided even the simplest and most basic tests on cables with extraordinary claims and prices. No retail price, even above $ 10,000, has ever been questioned, and any reasonably priced cable is shunned as if it were the audio equivalent of "truth serum". In short, they have completely ignored every serious concern and question relating to these audio products.
There is an obvious consistency and pattern of behavior in evidence here. Audio cables have presented a revealing and ultimate test of every magazines' basic honesty and integrity.
"Ultimate" because there is no other situation in audio where, simultaneously, the readers are so uninformed and vulnerable, the magazines tempted by huge advertising income and their 'reviewers' by "gifts", while the respective 'manufacturers' have unprecedented amounts of gross profits (90% or more of sales) to spread around to anyone who can help them. How many magazines have actually passed this "Ultimate Test"?
The magazines can be "friendly", in fact they can be extremely friendly, but the real question is:
Who are their real friends?
The Best wire I have ever heard cost me 2.00 a ft in 1979/80. reindex for inflation 4.68.
It still one of the best out there even today.
That was before the big wire war and overpricing and Hype.
Here is an interesting magazine articale I will repost it even clains there is a difference but not that great of one:
AUDIO CABLES-THE ULTIMATE TEST OF INTEGRITY
There is no subject or component category that has been as revealing of the magazines', and their reviewers', (lack of) integrity as audio cables. In less than 20 years audio cables have gone from an afterthought to a major investment in most systems. The prices have also skyrocketed from less than $ 50 to many thousands for the (so-called) "best".
Simultaneously, the cable companies have slowly become some of the largest advertisers in almost every audio magazine. In return, these magazines have published 'reviews', and "recommendations", of the "better known" (most heavily advertised) brands and models. Meanwhile...
Virtually nothing else has been printed about audio cables by them. (There is one magazine, The Audio Critic, that claims that all cables sound the same. They don't receive cable advertising.) So, one may ask, where is the problem with the magazines' self-proclaimed integrity? They're honest and open, aren't they?
Well, prepare yourself for a totally new perspective about audio cables and the audio magazines:
LACK OF BASIC INFORMATION
I used the expression "cable companies" in the above paragraph. Did you think it was an oversight on my part that I didn't use the word "manufacturer" instead? After all, that is the word that all the magazines (and the 'reviewers') use, or at least imply. I didn't use it for a very good reason: It is not true. What is the truth? That's very simple:
Virtually every cable company you have ever heard of (or ever will hear of) does NOT make its own cables.
Are you surprised, or even shocked by this statement? Don't worry, I was too, and remember, I have been in the audio business for more than 20 years. In fact, I even discovered (from the actual manufacturers) that many cable companies don't even design their own cables. They just choose among different designs, materials, colors, terminations and the overall volume (total length). Then they are quoted a price, and that's it. Some companies may do some custom terminations at their "factory", but that's all the "manufacturing" they'll ever do.
The magazines (and their 'reviewers') know all of this of course, but they make sure that their readers don't. Why do they suppress such basic information from their own subscribers?
The magazines realize that the word "Manufacturer" implies huge initial expenditures and investments of time and money, plus true size and importance. Simply ordering 50 or 100 pairs of cable from some large, 50-year old manufacturing plant, at their normal volume discount, doesn't even begin to convey the same image of scale, the same sense of expertise and commitment, or earn the same amount of respect or prestige, does it?
It's obvious that anyone with some money to invest can do the same thing. Magazines don't want their readers to think that any of their advertisers are just "anyone". The only serious monetary "investments" any of these cable companies will ever make is in "marketing" their products.
LACK OF PROPER AND THOROUGH TESTING
Unlike most other components, audio cables are easy to compare with each other, and now even with a "straight bypass" (a direct connection of two components that bypasses the cables). It should be obvious to all that the closer any cable is to the bypass, the better that cable must be.
One cable company, Wireworld, came out with the Comparator, a device which allows any particular cable to be compared with both a "bypass" position and one other cable. They use it themselves at audio shows, and a few of their larger retailers also use it. (Audio 'reviewers' always avoid the Comparator at shows, during public hours, for fear of exposure.) There is another, older device, the ABX switcher, which also makes it very easy and convenient to compare cables with each othernot against a pure bypass.
How many magazines use these informative devices, including the (free for them) Wireworld Comparator, with its ultra-revealing bypass position? Easy answer: None of them! A few 'reviewers' used the Comparator once, when reviewing some of Wireworld's cable, and never mentioned it again.
Even when they did use the Comparator, the results were always "inconclusive"; all the cables just happened to be "equally different" from the bypass.
The fact that the magazines refuse to even make these simple tests, let alone publish the results, is irrefutable evidence of their continual efforts to protect the inferior models. This means the "inferiors" will still be able to sell their products, give away "review samples" and pay their bills, most importantly their numerous advertising (AKA protection) invoices.
LACK OF COST/PRICE INQUIRY
As we enter this new decade, it is no longer even slightly surprising to see cables for thousands of dollars, even for short lengths. Some cables are now above $ 10,000 a pair. Just 15 years ago, the most expensive cables were all $ 200 or even less, and some of them even used pure silver. So what has happened?
Well, the cable companies discovered that some customers were prepared to pay more, a lot more. Even more important, they also found out that the magazines never questioned, let alone challenged, the prices they charged; $ 500, $ 1,000, $ 2,000, $ 5,000 etc. (Retailers weren't complaining either with this new development; A $ 200 sale became a $ 2,000 sale!)
No one, not even those cable companies that didn't advertise, was ever asked to justify their prices. It didn't matter what the cable was made of, or its build quality, or its terminations etc. No questions asked. Why?
The magazines are afraid, almost to the point of terror, that the readers/customers will discover that the markups on cables are now very similar to those on "illegal drugs", over 1,000%! The outraged reader may even lose his Audio Faith. (See the next subject below.)
LACK OF PRICE/PERFORMANCE COMPARISONS
The magazines' "don't ask, don't tell" policy doesn't stop there. For further protection, they will not even compare any of the (now rare) reasonably priced cables to any of the high-priced models, unless they already know that they are inferior (a fix). Why?
The magazines know that if even one low-priced cable is better, the entire myth that all high-quality cables must also be high-priced will be shattered, permanently.
The magazines have never compromised their "total package of protection" for the cable companies. That's why there exists today a "reference speaker cable", with "rave reviews", from a very well known "manufacturer", which retails at $ 9,500 for an 8' pair, while his own cost is less than $ 100 from the real cable manufacturer, and he can still "sleep like a baby". (Yes, under $ 100 dollars, including terminations!)
SUMMARY
The audio magazines, self-described as "your friends in the audio world", have shown a strange method of demonstrating their "friendship". They have allowed and even contributed to the illusion that ordinary individuals are actually large and serious "manufacturers". They have avoided even the simplest and most basic tests on cables with extraordinary claims and prices. No retail price, even above $ 10,000, has ever been questioned, and any reasonably priced cable is shunned as if it were the audio equivalent of "truth serum". In short, they have completely ignored every serious concern and question relating to these audio products.
There is an obvious consistency and pattern of behavior in evidence here. Audio cables have presented a revealing and ultimate test of every magazines' basic honesty and integrity.
"Ultimate" because there is no other situation in audio where, simultaneously, the readers are so uninformed and vulnerable, the magazines tempted by huge advertising income and their 'reviewers' by "gifts", while the respective 'manufacturers' have unprecedented amounts of gross profits (90% or more of sales) to spread around to anyone who can help them. How many magazines have actually passed this "Ultimate Test"?
The magazines can be "friendly", in fact they can be extremely friendly, but the real question is:
Who are their real friends?