MSD Ignitions

[CrBoy]

What do you guys think about MSD Ignitions? are they good? bad? not worth it?

I would like to get one for my Jetta 2.0 (8v) like the 6AL (http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_6_6420.htm) but I'm not sure... a turbo will be installed in about 3 months or so...

Please chime in Polkies ;)

[madmax]

I bought one of those for my Camaro but never installed it. When you decide you want one let me know and I'll give you a good price on my NIB one. I have the rev limiter, the timing control and a shift light too. I thought all that stuff would be cool but never found the time to install any of it. Now I'm not even interested in it anymore. So it goes... :)
madmax

[CrBoy]

pm sent

[audiobliss]

I would say, yeah, it's good. However, the stock ignition system on most cars is more than capable of keeping up with the vast majority of the mods the average Joe is going to do their cars.

However, if you can get a deal on a 'used' one (hint, hint), I'd go for it. There's certainly a cool factor involved.

[CrBoy]

the sequencial spark is supposed to improve fuel economy and other things... dunno

[MacLeod]

Theyre good if youre building a racing engine and want every last bit of horsepower you can get. If its a stock daily driver they aint worth it in my experience.

Ive tried all those gadgets from the Split Fire plugs, Tornado Air Management, cold air induction you name it, and Ive noticed no difference. So now I stick to plain old Purolator air filters and entry level Champion spark plugs.

[neomagus00]

slightly off-topic, but i noticed a major difference (in numbers, not just in subjective feel) when i installed an open-air intake this week... perhaps it's as much about the car as the mod...

[PoweredByDodge]

Capacitive discharge ignitions are shitty in my opinion.

The MSD-6AL (which is capacitive discharge) isn't any better than the rest. Mallory makes a virtually identical unit for half the price.

You want a good ignition? stick with stock.

The two best "old" ignitions you're ever going to run across (ones that work off a distributor) are the GM-HEI unit and the Chrysler 4 and 5 pin ECU units. Nothing beats them for durability and sureness of spark.

If you want to upgrade a modern stock ignition, then there are 2 good choices.

A) if you have a single coil with spark plug wires... get a 40 to 60,000 volt coil to replace the stock 20,000 volt one. Make sure you're using quality plugs and quality wires (8 to 10mm spark plug wires).

B) if you have "coil in plug" technology... go out and snag some double voltage coils... it'll cost you a fortune, but it's your $$ not mine.


aftermarket ignition isn't going to make a damn bit of difference... it's only good if your stock stuff is busted and you don't know how to fix it properly.

[CrBoy]

I wonder why all the reviews about MSD are so good, I have look quite a few sites and all of them say good thing about this ignitions.... DAMN!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[PoweredByDodge]

Quite a few sites also say good things about the "Tornado" (that steel piece of junk that you shove in your air intake tube), the "electric supercharger that pushes 0.1 cfm of air!", and various "fuel additives".

Fact is, capacitive discharge ignitions are so SIMPLE in design and CHEAP to build that any car manufacturer worth their salt would have integrated them into their stock electronics if they were any better.

The new 5.7 Hemi uses a multi-spark system as factory equipment... it's not capacitive discharge though... but it is multispark.



MSD jobbers are "good" when you're shit outa luck for an ignition for a hot rod of a restoration -- or when your daily driver breaks down and you plum don't know hwo to fix it -- its infinitely cheaper and easier to buy a 150 dollar MSD unit and slap it in than it is to diagnose and fix the OEM equipment... however, if the OEM stuff is working properly and tuned properly, then there is no reason to change.

[MacLeod]

The Tornado is a flat out rip off. I used to have a Suzuki Samurai with 66 horsepower. Sine it was so underpowered and always running at 100% I noticed even the smallest increase in horsepower, fuel mileage and engine temp. Synthetic oil made a big difference in engine temp. A Dynomax cat back exhaust kit made a noticeable seat of the pants difference in horsepower, a K&N filter did nothing, neither did a cold air induction kit. The Tornado did nothing at all neither did Splitfire plugs. A Random Technology hi flow catalytic converter made the biggest difference.

And like I said, if youre building a super high horse power engine or racing engine than a MSD ignition is a good match but for an every day OEM vehicle its not going to matter.

[Red230SX]

Actually the Hemi no longer has the waste-spark setup like my 04 Hemi Ram
has. It wasn't cost effective for Chrysler to redesign the ignition at the last
minute before the Hemi was released but they figured out there was no gain
to the waste spark setup and went with standard coils on the 06+ Hemi's.


My Hemi has dual coils at each plug and when #1 fires on intake it's firing
#6 on exhaust. It doesn't do a damn thing other than add more complexity
of wiring. The 06+ Hemi's and the 05+ SRT's are all one coil for one plug with
no waste spark.

[Red230SX]

Cold air inductions rarely work the way they claim but there are a few exceptions
to that..

The Ram Air (bottom breathing) setup I ran on my C5 Corvette was good for
an HONEST 15 rear wheel horsepower, yes that's hard to fathom but on the
Corvette the aerodynamics coupled with the tunneled radiatior shroud system
which is where the bottom breathers tie into, really do work.

[Red230SX]

Oh and FWIW the MSD 6-AL was the only thing that would burn all the fuel
I ran through my 452 CID Big Block Mopar in my Demon.

I ran an MSD 6-AL with a 7K Pill (Studder Box) with an Accel Supercoil (60Kv)
and Accel 300+ Race wires (8.8mm)

I tried every single Mopar "Hot rod" ECU box they made for my ignition and
nothing would keep the Demon from fouling out plugs. As soon as I yanked
out the ECU and went with an MSD my problems were solved, plus I gained
the rev limiter which I also needed.

But mind you that was on an OLD car with a hellatiously worked over big block.

[PoweredByDodge]

i'm fouling plugs like a bastard in the 88, but i've only got a 20kv coil... going to swap out to a 40 or 60 (have accel yellow 8mm wires already). i may go to the mopar orange box... not sure yet.

[Red230SX]

I tried the Orange, Chrome, Black spent way too much money and none of
them worked for me.. But I was running a fairly radical cam with tons of
overlap and that was the problem at idle speed (heh.. WHAT IDLE?) it would
load up.

[CrBoy]

This thread proves that I don't know sh!t about engines... LOL :p

[neomagus00]

ask! learn! it makes engine geeks like them annoyed, but they're usually cool enough to answer your questions...

except pbd, he won't... :D

[CrBoy]

^I know that's the only way...
soooooooooooo..... based on everybody's opinion the MSD will be useless in my case.... breaks system upgrade here I come!!!! :D

[Red230SX]

How can you upgrade a "Break" ? Break it worse? :)

Just razzin ya...

Ok trivia time.. How many degrees of Crankshaft Rotation are there in one full
four stroke engine cycle?

[CrBoy]

360... 720 degrees? where are the smart guys when you need'em... :D

[Red230SX]

720 is correct :)

[CrBoy]

Yuju... I'm just half stupid! ;)

[neomagus00]

ooh! i actually knew that! yay me :p

give us another...

[PoweredByDodge]

its oddly worded....

but yes, a normal 4 stroke car motor, it's half of one crankshaft rotation for each stroke ... intake, ignition/combustion, power, and exhaust... 4 * 0.5 = 2 rotations for a full "cycle" of a SINGLE cylinder.

every cylinder is out of sync with the others, so, good look figuring out how many it is from when cylinder 1 starts until cylinder 8 finishes... probably 2.1 or 2.2 or who the hell knows.

... far as my problem motor.... its a stock roller cam... higher compression heads, but basically a stock motor --- i idle at 800 by choice (supposed to be 700-ish) but i've got a slightly higher stall converter to compensate. it could be just break in taht's causing te fouling.... i haven't even driven the damn thing yet.

[neomagus00]

what means 'stall converter'?

[MacLeod]

Correct me if Im wrong Vinny but its the point where the engine RPM's need to be for the automatic transmission to move the vehicle. Say your stall is at 1000 RPM's, youll need to get the engine up to at least 1000 RPM's for the transmission to move the vehicle.

A torque converter has basically 2 propellors inside. One is attatched to the engine and the other to the tranny. When the engine spins its propellor fast enough, it stirs up the tranny fluid enough to spin the tranny's propellor which in turn spins the driveshaft. Now thats an extremely elementary explanation of how it works but thats because I have a very elementary understanding of auto trannys.

[neomagus00]

this (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter.htm) howstuffworks article helped me understand what you're talking about... the term 'stall converter' seems like it's a part, though i do see what you're saying

[MacLeod]

Wait til Vinny chimes in. I could be way off but that is the way Ive understood it for a while now.

[audiobliss]

Yeah, that's a good elementary explanation. I would elaborate on it, but I can't! :p

[98thumpin]

go msd kicks butt

[Red230SX]

A torque converter (non lockup) is comprised of a front shell, rear shell and
a stator. The insides of the front and rear shell look like a "Nautilus" and have
fins. The stator rides on a one way bearing in the center of the shell halves
which are welded together.

The front of the converter bolts to the engine's fly wheel and the back side of
the converter has "ears" which enguage the fluid pump inside the automatic
transmission.

As the fluid flows through the converter pressure and flow rises untill the
stator reaches a point where it directs the fluid in a way that there is a
viscous copupling acheived. The unit then acts as one piece via a fluid
coupling.

Below that point of "stall" the stator will spin freely and will not allow the
torque converter to acheive a viscous coupling state.

When someone says they put a "High Stall" converter in thier car it means
that the stator will not stall untill a high RPM range. Your average street
car's auto tranny stalls at idle RPM or slightly above idle RPM. On a race car
that is not practical because the engine's powerband is signifigantly higher
than that of the stock conveter and thus time and engergy is wasted.

If you have an engine which begins to make high horsepower and torque
figures at, say, 4000 RPM then you would want a converter that will stall
to 3500 or even 4500 RPM to allow the engine to lay down nearly all of it's
horsepower and torque right at the moment the conveter reaches it's fluid
coupling state.

Or you can go the way of the Powerglide. Add two fluid pumps, remove the
Torque Converter completely and install a "Trans Brake" which is a custom
designed valve circuit that will hold the gear sets "between" reverse and
forward untill a selonoid is tripped at which time it "drops" the tranny into
gear (while you are holding the throttle at redline) of course you need to
have a fully worked full race tranny to do this, and it also helps to have 18"
wide full slicks :)

[neomagus00]

ahh, i see how it all comes together now... thanks!

[PoweredByDodge]

ding ding ding - we have a weiner - er i mean winner.

Mac, you're pretty much right, but Red did a great job of explaining it in detail...

its not a 'stall converter' as much as its a "torque converter with a higher stall rating". just an adjective.

[Red230SX]

"High Stall Converter" :)

[audiobliss]

Oh, I'm not listening to that red230sx. He said automatics run on pixy dust...he can't know what he's talking about...

:p :D

[PoweredByDodge]

automatics do run on pixie dust... didn't you get the memo?

[Red230SX]

Bliss,

Yeah but it's derived from the same stuff IBM uses, you know? The IBM Server
Self Healing Pixie Dust (the pink stuff) good stuff! :)

[disneyjoe7]

Torque Converter completely and install a "Trans Brake" which is a custom
designed valve circuit that will hold the gear sets "between" reverse and
forward until a solenoid is tripped at which time it "drops" the tranny into
gear (while you are holding the throttle at redline) of course you need to
have a fully worked full race tranny to do this


OMG that must be a killer on an "Auto Trans" holding it self between gears.

BTW very nice post, I myself know something about stall converters but your post would have made mine like a 3rd grader vs College Grad. ;)

[HiPerf360]

Capacitive discharge ignitions are shitty in my opinion.

The MSD-6AL (which is capacitive discharge) isn't any better than the rest. Mallory makes a virtually identical unit for half the price.

You want a good ignition? stick with stock.

The two best "old" ignitions you're ever going to run across (ones that work off a distributor) are the GM-HEI unit and the Chrysler 4 and 5 pin ECU units. Nothing beats them for durability and sureness of spark.

If you want to upgrade a modern stock ignition, then there are 2 good choices.

A) if you have a single coil with spark plug wires... get a 40 to 60,000 volt coil to replace the stock 20,000 volt one. Make sure you're using quality plugs and quality wires (8 to 10mm spark plug wires).

B) if you have "coil in plug" technology... go out and snag some double voltage coils... it'll cost you a fortune, but it's your $$ not mine.


aftermarket ignition isn't going to make a damn bit of difference... it's only good if your stock stuff is busted and you don't know how to fix it properly.

Where the fuck do you get your information?????

HEI and Mopar performance ignitions pail in comparison to MSD.

Mallory- was good about 15 years ago

Accel- was good about 25 years ago

MSD is on the cutting edge of quality and design for ignitions.

[HiPerf360]

I wonder why all the reviews about MSD are so good, I have look quite a few sites and all of them say good thing about this ignitions.... DAMN!!!!!!!!!! :mad:


Because they are...

Go to a race track and look at the different ignition systems....

over 90% will be MSD

5% will be a MoTec or Bosch derivitve...

The othe 5% will be all the rest.

[HiPerf360]

i'm fouling plugs like a bastard in the 88, but i've only got a 20kv coil... going to swap out to a 40 or 60 (have accel yellow 8mm wires already). i may go to the mopar orange box... not sure yet.

If you are fouling plugs the tune up is incorect or your plugs are to cold.

[HiPerf360]

Red-

Got your e-mail-

Will respond later today.

See ya

[Red230SX]

If you are fouling plugs the tune up is incorect or your plugs are to cold.


The tune was fine... The problem was that I had 76 degrees of valve overlap
plus a fairly broad LSA on the cam. It made for a miserable idle, in fact it
would not idle below 1200 RPM and the amount of vacuum through the intake
tract caused the boosters to surge even at "idle" speed. Of course the ignition
could not keep up with that much fuel at idle.

I ultimately solved the problem by going with an MSD 6-AL with an Accel
Supercoil and eliminated the junk mopar ECU box and upgraded to a Holley
1050CFM 3 Barrel (Factory carb from a Baldwin Motion Phase III Camaro)
which had annular discharge boosters, 50cc accelerator pumps, four corner
idle circuits etc.. It was basically a streetable dominator (but did not use the
dominator body it was the 750 DP Body with massive work in the venturii).

After that was done it never fouled another plug and I am sure I also made
more horsepower in the process. The car was a monster :)

[98thumpin]

to much unburnt fuel =fouled plug

[HiPerf360]

Red-

I was not referring to the motor in your Dart?? but PBD'd 88 truck. I don’t think the cam is that large in his truck?

Mopar engine and cylinder head configurations really like the 4500 series carbs over the 4150 as the main body is taller and it sends a better signal to the boosters. With extremely low vacuumed at idle I usually jus block the front and rear power valves and raise the main jets to compensate it. But then you have to change or drill the intermediate passages in the metering block or the drivability will be shot.

With the cost of all the jets, air bleeds and metering block changes plus the initial cost of a good carb EFI looks that much better of an option for my 67 sb barracuda. And now that I am proficient with the mapping software I can make fine adjustments very quickly without spilling fuel everywhere.

[neomagus00]

to much unburnt fuel =fouled plug
was this a question or a statement?

[Red230SX]

Jon,

Demon but I will let it slide this time :)

Yep the 4500 would have solved the problem but the 4150 I was using
was a fully worked over carb right out of the box and it did work perfect.

When I was trying to make a brand new 3310 work, pfft that just didn't
happen at all, I had the boosters surging so bad it was laughable they
just dumped...

I was going to actually do the eliminated Power Valves and swap Jets around
but that's when I came across that 1050 and it saved me the hassle. :)

EFI is the way to go..... With something along the lines of Accel DFI it's
easy to tune in the car, at the track, on the dyno etc...





Red-

I was not referring to the motor in your Dart?? but PBD'd 88 truck. I don’t think the cam is that large in his truck?

Mopar engine and cylinder head configurations really like the 4500 series carbs over the 4150 as the main body is taller and it sends a better signal to the boosters. With extremely low vacuumed at idle I usually jus block the front and rear power valves and raise the main jets to compensate it. But then you have to change or drill the intermediate passages in the metering block or the drivability will be shot.

With the cost of all the jets, air bleeds and metering block changes plus the initial cost of a good carb EFI looks that much better of an option for my 67 sb barracuda. And now that I am proficient with the mapping software I can make fine adjustments very quickly without spilling fuel everywhere.

[HiPerf360]

Thats right...

I always liked the Demons... Killer emblem!

Actually I think I will go with a Mo-Tec system, a little overkill for a drag car but I am used to the tuning of them and already have a computer set up for it.

[Red230SX]

Yeah Motec is a bit overkill but if you have the diagnostic equipment that's
half the investment :)

[98thumpin]

was this a question or a statement?
it was a statement

[Red230SX]

it was a statement


2 + 3 = Chair! :confused: :p

[HiPerf360]

Yeah Motec is a bit overkill but if you have the diagnostic equipment that's
half the investment :)

Compliments of the GM Performance Division

[deepinya]

2 + 3 = Chair! :confused: :p


oh crap I shot pepsi out of my nose when I read this.

it burns = you DIE!!! :p

[audiobliss]

this thread=getting stupid

:p

[neomagus00]

yeah, but you = postwhore, so it's all good :p

[audiobliss]

a;sdlkfjei=iejfklds;a of course assuming the multiplicative commutative property.

And yeah, I just posted that to gain a +1. I think it worked.

:D

[MacLeod]

Ill let you slide and wont break out the filter on ya because this post was pretty funny: ;)


this thread=getting stupid

:p