I've now heard 'hi-fi'

[audiobliss]

After classes were over this afternoon, I had a few minutes to kill, so I went to the local hi-fi store, Custom Home Hi-Fi (http://www.hifisolutions.com/pages/home_start.html). All I can say about what I heard is wow.

After I walked around and inspected the new equipment in the various rooms, I entered 'the room'. This room is filled, I mean stuffed full of B&W's. I'm not exactly sure what was hooked up, but based on the pictures on B&W's website, I've determined they were the 803D. (They had the tweeter on top, and then a mid and 3 woofs behind the grill. Beautiful wood finish.) A Rotel RCD1072 was feeding a Bryston BP25 pre, which fed into a Bryston SST amp, which I've determined to be the 2B since the others have handles on the front (this one did not).

Let me reiterate. Wow.

After I got the salesman to turn on the amp (how was I to know the SST emblem was the power switch? :p), I was instantly amazed. Well, ok. Maybe not until after I played a CD, too, but shortly thereafter.

I grabbed my Big Mon and Cream of Clapton CDs out of my car. I played the former first. When I pushed the Open/Close button on the Rotel, the transport came out so fast I almost had to jump back to keep it from hitting me. I've never seen a tray open that fast. And, as expected, I was disappointed with how 'sturdy' the tray was. At any rate, track access and everything else was just fine.

I sat back on the comfy couch right in the sweet spot and hit play. My favorite song on the CD, and possibly my all-time favorite song came up first, Darlin' Corey. I heard things (well, namely one) that I had never heard before, and the music obviously had an impact I had never experienced before. For a lack of technical, audiophile jargon to use, and a lack of ability to hear what it stands for, I will leave it at that. The presence and impact the system produced was amazing.

I went through the CD, listening to most of all but 2 or 3 songs. I then put in Cream of Clapton (of course after listening to Darlin' Corey one more time! :p). I was shocked. Only this time by disappointment. All the force and energy I had just heard from the system was suddenly gone. The music sounded dead, lifeless. Merely a recording being replayed, instead of an actual performance. I also noticed a lot of white noise in the background, something I assume wasn't present with the other CD since I didn't notice it.

After a few songs I started to warm up to the sound. I concluded that the two types of music were totally different, and recorded differently, and so it took a while to adjust to the different presentation. I also concluded my Cream of Clapton CD isn't recorded nearly as well.



I'm not 100% sure the speakers that were hooked up were the 803D, though they look identical. I was amazed at the bass output, and B&W's website says the 803D only goes down to 35Hz, with the -6db point being at 28Hz. Is it possible that the room came into play here and really reinforced the bass output?

I loved the Bryston gear. First time I've ever heard it. Really the first time I've ever seen it. The build quality and feel is phenomenal. And the remote for the preamp! :eek: Like the salesman said, it's good for two purposes: 1) controlling the equipment, and 2) for throwing at people when they break in! It was carved (milled, w/e) out of solid aluminum, and must have weighed 3 pounds! :eek:



I must say this is my first real taste of the high-end. Remember those few minutes I said I had to kill? Well, good thing I didn't have anywhere to be soon. I ended up being enveloped by my music for a bit over an hour. I wasn't able to precisely pick-out the locations of the artists, determine the width/depth of the soundstage, etc, but I was paying enough attention to be amazed at the overall performance. Maybe if I continue to spend an hour everyday in front of such a system, I'll be able to pick out some of those things.

One thing that really struck me, snapped me to rigid attention, was what I take to be a snare drum hit? I've heard them referred to, but can't say I've heard one...until today. In the opening 30 seconds or so of one of the Eric Clapton songs (can't remember which one; was either Sunshine Of Your Love, White Room, Crossroads, or Badge), there are a few snaredrum hits (assuming that is indeed what they are). The first one hit me squarely in the chest! It was an amazing experience to have something like that come to life so! So much so, I backed up and played it again!...and again! For some reason they backed off after the first one, but that first one is something!


Anyhoo, that was my experience for today, and certainly one I hope to have again...and soon!

[audiobliss]

Oh, and just to throw it out there, the salesman said the Bryston preamp (BP25) was $2600, and the amp (I believe 2B SST) was $3300. I was quite disappointed in their price on the RCD1072; it was either $700 or $799, and I almost want to say it was $799.

[F1nut]

Cool

[MacLeod]

Now ya know how I felt after hearing the SRT's at Polkfest!

[Joey_V]

Why be disappointed at the price of the Rotel RCD1072? Because it sounds good and doesnt cost $3K? Sometimes, you have to overlook the price.

Anyway, I know exactly what you're talking about... cant wait to go back to my place after spring break and fire up the Summits! Once you've heard true high end, it's hard to go back.

I'm still working on my upstreams.... but I think I have the speakers figured out. I've heard those 803D - at $8000, they are expensive but good. You should go out and listen to the Wilson Sophia (close to that price range, a little more though)... those would give the BW a run for its money with a lower extension.

Either way, congrats on your hifi experience!! :)

[audiobliss]

Actually, I was disappointed in the RCD1072's price because I was hoping it would be less!. At any rate, it is an awfully nice CDP at an almost affordable price. Maybe I'll have one someday! :)

Come to think of it, maybe I'll have an entire setup like that one day...in about 40+ years! :p

But it really was a great experience. I'm hoping all my Tuesdays will allow me to stop by. And actually, it's got me seriously wondering if they'd let me work there. Small place, but I usually only see one person out on the floor when I'm there. I would love to work there, work with the equipment, learn about it, move it around, etc, and be able to hear it when I'm not doing anything; even if they don't pay but $3/hour! :p

[Dennis Gardner]

The down side of great system is how mediocre it makes some of our favorite music sound, since the recordings are simply mastered poorly.

I'm glad you got to here B&W since they are one of the standards out there for accurate speaker systems. The attention to detail in the manufacturing process does create what seems to be an extremely well built line.

I spent an afternoon with 800Ds and 802Ds last month driven by Classe' new Delta series and it took about a week before I could enjoy my rig again and see it for the nice sound value it provides. Kinda like test driving BMWs and Mercedes and jumping back into your used beater for the drive home.

[Joey_V]

Actually, I was disappointed in the RCD1072's price because I was hoping it would be less!. At any rate, it is an awfully nice CDP at an almost affordable price. Maybe I'll have one someday! :)

Come to think of it, maybe I'll have an entire setup like that one day...in about 40+ years! :p

But it really was a great experience. I'm hoping all my Tuesdays will allow me to stop by. And actually, it's got me seriously wondering if they'd let me work there. Small place, but I usually only see one person out on the floor when I'm there. I would love to work there, work with the equipment, learn about it, move it around, etc, and be able to hear it when I'm not doing anything; even if they don't pay but $3/hour! :p

You CAN get that system even before you know it. The BEAUTY about audio is to buy USED... so, if you buy used, you really dont lose any of your initial investment.

Case in point...

I bought Polk LSi7 at $200 a pair.... sold them later for $450 a pair.
Bought LSi9 for $600 shipped.... sold it later for $700 shipped.
Bought countless number of other speakers and sold them off for minimal loss (from Sonus Faber to SVS).

In the end, I was left with a bunch of money I had initially invested into audio equipment.. I got it all back, maybe minus a $500 for wrong decisions along the way. But, the point is, usually with audio (as long as you buy used), you get what you initially put in - making it essentially a revolving savings account.

Now, if I never had an audio hobby, I probably would be just as broke - with nothing to show for it. However, because of my unrelenting influx of cash into audio, at age 23 - not much older than you - I got the Summits (used of course, in case I need to sell in a few years). These Summits are $11,000 retail (optional silver aluminum).

Point is, never say never.

[neomagus00]

mmm, the first true snare experience... that's what i remember most about the polkfest speaker demo, too...

[F1nut]

I've heard those 803D - at $8000, they are expensive but good.

My take, a very analytical and sterile sound.

You should go out and listen to the Wilson Sophia (close to that price range, a little more though)... those would give the BW a run for its money with a lower extension.

Interestingly, there was a discussion on another forum where someone suggested the Sophia's. Another fella (not me) suggested that Sophia owners would be shocked at how much better the SDA's sound.

Just my $.02

[Joey_V]

Interestingly, there was a discussion on another forum where someone suggested the Sophia's. Another fella (not me) suggested that Sophia owners would be shocked at how much better the SDA's sound.

Just my $.02


That's where personal preferences come to play I suppose.

[PoweredByDodge]

8 grand on a pair of speakers is ridiculous.

Cant you get 7's for around a grand?

[F1nut]

Joey, agreed.

[Shizelbs]

If SDAs can sound better than Sophias, I am one stupid man for selling my SDAs.

[unc2701]

That was a bryston 4b SST- probably the consumer line- they're 17" and don't have the rack ears or handles. The 2b runs around $1500, I think. Anyhow, if you decide to buy anything bryston, lemme know; my friend is one of their top US sellers and I think he can get you that 4b for under 3 grand.

[reeltrouble1]

I am one stupid man for selling my SDAs.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..Shelby Rock on.

RT1

[reeltrouble1]

8 grand on a pair of speakers is ridiculous.



I dont think so, except that eight might just whet the appetite for more. Heck eight large is considered very "entry" by some folks deep into the hobby.

Some manufaturer's stress correctness in reproducing the signal others stress musicality, neither right nor wrong just different.

RT1

[madmax]

8 grand on a pair of speakers is ridiculous.


It's all relative. I know people who would consider $400 for a pair of speakers ridiculous. (No association with said party :D )
madmax

[mldennison]

$400 for a pair of speakers ridiculous.
it's ridiculous that someone would only spend $400 for a pair of speakers :p

[Shizelbs]

I used to be in the camp that thought eight large would be insane for some speakers, but now I wouldn't be suprised if I did just that same day down the road. Way down the road.

[Early B.]

For 8 large, you can hire someone to build custom made speakers to your specs with the highest quality parts in the most exotic wood veneer that will outperform anything on the market at any price, and have money left over to buy a used car, a bottle of champagne and some late night companionship.

[crazy]

it's ridiculous that someone would only spend $400 for a pair of speakers :p

I second that - I did but then again I was just a student at that time.

[audiobliss]

That was a bryston 4b SST- probably the consumer line- they're 17" and don't have the rack ears or handles. The 2b runs around $1500, I think. Anyhow, if you decide to buy anything bryston, lemme know; my friend is one of their top US sellers and I think he can get you that 4b for under 3 grand.
Ahh, so there's a pro line and consumer line edition for each amp? I guess that would make sense, then...

Thanks for the heads up about your friend. Who knows. I very well may be interested in Bryston equipment one day, but rest assured, that day is not coming up within the next 2 or 3 years.

[audiobliss]

it's ridiculous that someone would only spend $400 for a pair of speakers :p
I whole-heartedly agree...I paid $500! :p

[unc2701]

Ahh, so there's a pro line and consumer line edition for each amp? I guess that would make sense, then...


Yep, but only difference is the pro line has a screw on the back to adjust the gain. Bryston even sells faceplates if you want to switch the look of your gear.

[Joey_V]

For 8 large, you can hire someone to build custom made speakers to your specs with the highest quality parts in the most exotic wood veneer that will outperform anything on the market at any price, and have money left over to buy a used car, a bottle of champagne and some late night companionship.

Somehow I dont believe that just sticking the best parts into an awesome cabinet is enough to make it sound good. If that were the case, then this whole speaker quest wouldve been done a LONG time ago.

[Early B.]

Somehow I dont believe that just sticking the best parts into an awesome cabinet is enough to make it sound good.

I'm sure it's obvious to most everyone else, but that's not what I meant.

[HiPerf360]

I'm sure it's obvious to most everyone else, but that's not what I meant.


Early,

I think that might be a little off...

You could never design a new speaker to rival anything on the market for eight grand; however you could probably reproduce almost any speaker on the market for 8,000.00.

The R&D costs of just one new speaker that could be that competitive would be many times that amount.

[Early B.]

You could never design a new speaker to rival anything on the market for eight grand; however you could probably reproduce almost any speaker on the market for 8,000.00.

I'm not talking about designing a new speaker. I'm referring to acquiring custom made speakers. Custom made does not mean designing a new speaker. There are a ton of small speaker building outfits that make exceptional speakers at a fraction of the cost of brand name speakers, and they often use the same high quality parts. The customizing comes with your choice of crossover components, veneer, outboard crossover, bass module, etc.

Also keep in mind that price in audio does not dictate sound quality. Too much subjectivity. A $500 pair of speakers can sound just as good TO YOUR EARS than a $5,000 pair.

[Joey_V]

Also keep in mind that price in audio does not dictate sound quality. Too much subjectivity. A $500 pair of speakers can sound just as good TO YOUR EARS than a $5,000 pair.

I could agree with you on this one...

I do prefer the LSi15 to the Von Schweikert VR4jr.... but then again, I could just be odd.

[Zero]

AudioBliss - you are well on your way. Get down with the sickness...


Early B,

I wont get into it. I think you're crazy, plain and simple. But the other day I did something I haven't done in freakin 4-5 months (if not longer). I jammed out to good music (poor recordings). Metallica, Stevie Ray Vaughn, The Doors, SoundGarden, Stratovarius, a lot of raggae, and on and on. Those $500 gems allowed me to enjoy music I previously have by and large ignored because of super high res. monitors. Yep, I dont think I would jam out the same way listening to a pair of 802D's. Ears are still ringin - I f***in love it.

[Early B.]

Early B,

I wont get into it. I think you're crazy, plain and simple. But the other day I did something I haven't done in freakin 4-5 months (if not longer). I jammed out to good music (poor recordings). Metallica, Stevie Ray Vaughn, The Doors, SoundGarden, Stratovarius, a lot of raggae, and on and on. Those $500 gems allowed me to enjoy music I previously have by and large ignored because of super high res. monitors. Yep, I dont think I would jam out the same way listening to a pair of 802D's. Ears are still ringin - I f***in love it.

OK, so you're supporting my argument based on your own personal experiences, but I'm the crazy one?:rolleyes:


(BTW - I don't disagree that I'm crazy, but it's for reasons unrelated to audio. :p )

[Zero]

I know I'm crazy. And I know that you know you're crazy. I am just stating that I think you're crazy too! Thats all I was saying.. ;)

[audiobliss]

Well, I guess you can color me a few shades of disappointed. I had (hmm..and am still having) the good fortune (or misfortune?) to be home alone for a few minutes, so I grabbed my Big Mon and Cream of Clapton CDs to give 'em a spin in my system.

Starting with Darlin' Corey....well, there just isn't near as much energy, force, presence with my system as there was with the B&W's and Bryston gear. That little something I heard for the first time on Tuesday? I could hear it today on my system. But it just wasn't nearly as enjoyable. In my room that must be half the size of that demo room, I couldn't seem to achieve near the force or impact (SPL? pressure?) the other system had.

So then I put in Cream of Clapton for a few songs. There wasn't as much of a difference between the two CDs as there was when listening to the system Tuesday, but again, there wasn't near as much energy buzzing around.


Moderate listening levels for my system are usually around -40 to -30 when my parents are home, and when they're gone (like now), I turn it up to the - teens. I guess it sounds 'louder', but it doesn't have any more impact or slam. I walk out of my room and down the hall, and even in the other end of the house, it sounds loud, but when I walk back in my room, the presence just isn't there. I came across that song with the snare drum kick again, so I turned it up to see if I could 'feel' it like I did Tuesday. No go. So I turned it up some more. I ended up turning it up to -2, but the snare drum kick just blended in with the rest of the song. I could feel the floor shaking a bit under my feet, but I couldn't 'feel' the music. Am I at all conveying what I'm thinking?

I know I need to get a new source and a nice preamp before I can begin to brag about my system, and I know my placement is nothing short of horrible, so I'm hoping that has something to do with.

At least now I know I can go to that store and hear what it should sound like (or at least closer to what it should sound like) and compare it to my system. But maybe that's not such a good thing. :(


Oh, and can anybody confirm if what I'm hearing is actually a snare drum kick? In the first 16 seconds of Presence of the Lord, just a few bars are repeated over and over. The music starts from a lower note, then hits a higher note, then comes back down again. *uses hand gestures to simulate placement of notes on sheetmusic* In the FIRST bar, the high note kicks a lot harder than the others. What is that? Is that indeed a snare drum?

[audiobliss]

I can confidently say that my system is no where near 'nice', and I am no where near an 'audiophile'. I have yet to sit down in front of a rig and determine the boundaries of the soundstage and pick out where everybody 'on stage' is standing. However, I do believe that, after Tuesday, I have the sickness. Comparing my system today with what I heard Tuesday...I'm motivated to make it sound better!

I only hope I can afford that! :D

[Joey_V]

I would try and help you out with that snare drum bit, but my rig is at the apartment and I'm at home home... sorry.

[halo]

Joey_V clean out your pm box!

[unc2701]

Those RF-35's cut off pretty steep starting around 40hz, if I remember (a freind of mine uses them)... His system didn't sound right until he got a sub in there. You'd be surprised how much info there is between 20hz and 40hz. It's more subtle than the 40-80hz octave, but it really gives the music the force that it needs.

[Joey_V]

Joey_V clean out your pm box!

Done and done!

I dont understand why we are limited to 70.... geez!!!

[audiobliss]

The RF35's -3db point is 37Hz. Not that spectacular, for sure, but I never thought it required a sub.

It's interesting that you should bring that up. As I was leaving Custom Home Hi-Fi Tuesday, there was a big Klipsch RSW-15 sub box sitting in the middle of the floor, so I asked the salesman if they had started carrying Klipsch. He said no, and that one of his customers had bought it, didn't like it, and wanted them to try and sell it. The salesman talked about how bloated the bass was on the Klipsch sub, and how it didn't go very low (all things I had heard before). Before I left I said that I had Klipsch mains, but had heard their subs weren't that great. He said I should get a sub, and that I should look at Paradigm.

When he said I needed a sub, I just brushed it aside, 'cause I've never seriously thought I needed a sub ever since I went with 2-channel. However, maybe I do.

But I don't think that's really the problem here. This 'snare drum' kick I heard definitely isn't in the lower frequencies, and my system can't capture near the amount of force the B&W's and Brystons reproduced.

[Zero]

Michael,

It was only a matter of time. Its cool to step into better gear, but I want to just say something that may need repeating every once inawhile as you get deeper into this hobby; You dont *need* any of this stuff, its just toys, its just for fun. When you stop having fun, its time to get on out!

[heiney9]

Bliss, you just experienced your 1st audio epiphany. The experience you are trying so hard to put into words is what it's all about. Each of us is on a quest and we are all at different stops on that quest. This is just a small taste of what is possible with top notch equipment and recordings. The exhiliration can be the same as that feeling you get riding a roller coaster.

To your snare drum question. The snare is not kicked, it's struck with a stick. I think you might be referring to the kick drum (big bass drum). You use a foot pedal to strike the drum. The snare is the drum you hear that sounds like it snaps. The pop of a clean snare is another very exciting aural experience to here that crisp snap as the stick smacks the drum head with all the natural attack and decay characteristics.

H9

[CrBoy]

...but I want to just say something that may need repeating every once inawhile as you get deeper into this hobby; You dont *need* any of this stuff, its just toys, its just for fun. When you stop having fun, its time to get on out!

This is true for most of the people and I do know some folks that really need to keep upgrading their stuff every 2-3 months to be phisically healthy and in good mood :p

[audiobliss]

By saying 'snare drum kick', I meant the 'kick' the snare drum delivers. I'm actually aware that the snare drum is 'hit with a stick'. I've listened to that passage several times, and it sounds like a snare drum to me. But I just can't be sure.

[heiney9]

By saying 'snare drum kick', I meant the 'kick' the snare drum delivers. I'm actually aware that the snare drum is 'hit with a stick'. I've listened to that passage several times, and it sounds like a snare drum to me. But I just can't be sure.

A snare is pretty unmistakeable as no other drum sounds quite like it. Wasn't trying to dumb down the explanation just trying to be more exact. I don't have that particular music so I can't listen and say for sure.

[audiobliss]

Wasn't trying to dumb down the explanation just trying to be more exact.
Wasn't taken that way, either. :)

I don't have that particular music so I can't listen and say for sure.
That, sir, is not forgiveable! :eek: :D

[Joey_V]

When he said I needed a sub, I just brushed it aside, 'cause I've never seriously thought I needed a sub ever since I went with 2-channel. However, maybe I do.

But I don't think that's really the problem here. This 'snare drum' kick I heard definitely isn't in the lower frequencies, and my system can't capture near the amount of force the B&W's and Brystons reproduced.

Here is where it gets messy... it is very difficult to find a sub that integrates supremely well with your mains, if you're picky enough. When I had my Vantages, I thought the same way you did.. that I didnt need the lower extension. However, I missed it and when I heard the Summits play on its own in full force, I realized that I needed that last lower octave.

I scoured for a sub and I decided not on SVS, HSU, or the usual subs, but on a Velodyne DD15 or DD18.

At this point, I realized that the cash to acquire these subs would put me easily into used Summit territory and here I am 2 weeks later.

Once you start looking for that last few octaves, things get hairy.

[audiobliss]

Ugh. I don't wanna hafta integrate a sub into my mains! I don't like subs! That's why I wanted floorstanders, lol. I don't have the space for a sub, either. I think I'll concentrate on making the rest of my system stronger, before I worry too much about the lower frequencies.

[Dennis Gardner]

Bear with me for this:

What added to the realism that you experienced in your "kick" you heard in the snare drum is the harmonics and dynamics that your speakers can't deliver. Few naturally occuring "tones" or percussive sounds are one single note. They have natural harmonic overtones within the main frequency that add to the note to make it whole as a real sound. They may be several octaves higher or lower than the predominant tone that you hear. A single note produced artificially is very sterile and lifeless....ever actually listened to a sine wave and enjoyed for it for over 3 seconds? Get the picture?

A single frequency like a sine wave is boring and monotonous by nature without any texture. Singing, and producing those notes naturally through vibration of a vocal chord, wind instrument, strings, or other percussion instrument is anything but monotone and isn't a single frequency at all.

With that explained...........It takes a pretty good level of speaker and electronics and room acoustics (echos) to reproduce those overtones and percussive waves at a realistic level. Your 35s just aren't up to it at high volume and when turned down, your amps aren't producing enough current to deliver it unless a sub is used to bring up the bottom end. Full range speakers are the best at delivering this realism. Just think how much your gain from dinky sats to your 35s. The same can be gained goin to towers, but only the best of tower designs can deliver it with clarity, since many don't handle bass resonance very well and muddy mids and highs along the way. I hear this in RTi70s that I run in my living room. Nice for movies but muddy with music nuance.

[organ]

Bliss,
I also experienced "hi end" on a pair of Beemers about 10 years ago at a friend's house. At the time, I thought my Kenwood speakers/Technics receiver combo was the bomb lol. Bryston amps are kick ass with a shit load of headroom to handle the most demanding speakers. I'm still considering Bryston for my LSi9. Also have a Krell int, Musical Fidelity seperates in mind. But that day is still pretty far away.

Don't talk about how much your system is lacking just yet. You haven't reached it's potential. You're using a portable CDP as a source and a receiver as pre. These are your weakest point right now. Believe me, I know. I used to use a discman as source, then DVD player. The difference a dedicated CDP can make in a system is huge. I'm talking pure solid hitting bass, rich sound and beautiful highs.

The snare hit you're talking about can be achieved in your system. This is what I really like about the RF-35's. They can do transients like no other speakers in the same price range. Hell, I'm talking live kind of dynamics. But the way I see it, your source and pre are holding your rig back by a mile. The 35's are capable of producing very powerful/deep bass. I can enjoy mine without a sub. How big is your room? Try to give them more distance apart and from the listening position. Those big speakers need to breathe.

So don't worry about what your system is not capable of at the moment. Just enjoy it for now knowing that after your upgrades, you'll look back and laugh at how it was set up before. So what's next for you? Source? Saw your Rotel CDP post over at the Klipsch forum.

Maurice

[audiobliss]

Dennis Gardner
Thanks for the explanation. Was very clear and concise, i.e. I understood it! Your argument makes perfectly good sense. However, the RF35 is a tower speaker. As organ says, (I hope) it should be capable of producing those snare drum hits you 'feel'.

organ,
Thanks for the reality check, man. Ever sense Tuesday I've been trying to come up with a way to buy different speakers, lol! Maybe a preamp and CDP will make a major difference, but I know my room and their placement are really hurting things big time.

My room is 13.5' x 13', so it's not large by any means. Also, my placement is horrible. I've attached a quick Paint rendering of a bird's eye view of my room. My left speaker is 9 inches from the back wall, while the feet touch the desk on the left, and the door *can* touch the speaker on the right. For the left speaker, it's about 7 inches from the back wall and 4 inches from the left side-wall (remember it's catawompus, so, there's a triangle of area behind the speaker). My 'sweet spot' is beside my bed right in front of my nightstand. I either crouch there or move my desk chair to that spot. It's probably far from a sweet spot, but it's the only one I have.

My first upgrade is a CDP. I've all but sent out the MO for it. And yes, it's the one I asked about on the Klipsch forum. I'm still surprised noone offered any advice.

Next will hopefully be a Dodd ELP. Those two should really bring the performance of my system up a bit, but I feel that the placement and room conditions are more of a problem than my upstream equipment is. And that's not good, because, as prohibitive as the cost of new equipment is, I don't even know how I can go about improving the layout in my room.

Oh well, it is a journey. Hopefully I'll be able to stop and smell the roses along the way.

EDIT - I have 'updated' my little Paint rendition of my room's layout. This one is actually to scale. Well, except for the Scott 208D in the right corner. I forget about it and added it in. The rest actually is to scale.

[I-SIG]

Just a few thoughts from reading this thread:

A good sub makes a MASSIVE difference, even with my SRS's. Don't be a afraid of blending a sub. Besides the gear (dB meter & spreadsheet), all you need is some patience and time to fiddle around.

I'm gonna have to disagree with the snare drum deal. When I went from the Carver to the Parasound amp the midrange difference was amazing. The snare drum (among other things) went from in your face to still sharp, but much more blended and natural. I can't think of a single live performance I have attended that the snare was beating me in the chest, even from the 3rd or 10th row.

If the Dodd ELP compares to the Dared units of similar design & build, save about 75% and get an Audio Alchemy DLC.

that's enough for now. :)

Wes

[Early B.]

I can't think of a single live performance I have attended that the snare was beating me in the chest, even from the 3rd or 10th row.

Bingo. Live music is the litmus test for your system. If you hear (or sometimes feel) something in your system that you won't hear in a good live performance, then maybe it shouldn't be there.

[madmax]

Another thing to remember is that different systems do different things. If you pick one particular sonic point and compare it to pick out the better system you will have missed the boat all together.
madmax

[shack]

Bingo. Live music is the litmus test for your system. If you hear (or sometimes feel) something in your system that you won't hear in a good live performance, then maybe it shouldn't be there.

I hear this over and over...but it doesn't have anything to do with most of the music I like. It may be true if you are listening to non-amplified music in a small closed environment. I don't want my music to sound ANYTHING like some of the concerts I've been to. Even in a small club environment the sound of the music (instruments or vocals) is still dependent on the amplification and accoustics, etc... The energy or atmosphere may be conducive to an enjoyable experience, but very often the sound ain't that great. I find that even well recorded symphony music is often better "sounding" than the live experience due to the placement of the microphones.

While I often prefer the experience of a live performance, I more often prefer the sound of a good recording.

[reeltrouble1]

Bliss,

Come to Polkfest.

RT1

[audiobliss]

The one in SC? I'll have to check and see when it is...but I can tell you...I'll have to be out of the house and away from my parents' jurisdiction before I'll be able to go to a polkfest.

[organ]

I'm on a mac right now so I don't know how to view your attachment. I'll take a look at it when I'm using the PC next week.

Is there any way you can pull those speakers out more? 9" from the front wall is really pushing it with the 35's. Those ports are huge compared to other speakers. I've got mine about 2.5ft away from the front wall and have no problems at all getting deep powerful bass. I'm guessing, the 9" of clearance is somehow screwing up the bass and smearing the sound. You can always try DIY room treatments using cheap foam. Forget the audiophile grade stuff.

Don't think about upgrading the speakers until you hear them at their full potential. Hell, I haven't even maxed out my 35's yet. The 7's are my dream speakers but I seriously don't feel the need to upgrade. The 35's are still the best speakers I've heard.

Congrats on your Rotel CDP! Not too many people use Rotel as a source, so that's probably why you didn't get any response. But believe me, the difference you'll hear compared to your discman will be night and day.

I'll get back to this after I use the PC to view your picture.



OK, back to the snare drums. The 35's are 98db/w/m with two 8 inchers/1 horn loaded tweeter in each cabinet. They WILL reproduce that kind of sound with no problems. This is what Klipsch is known for: The live sound with a buttload of dynamics and impact. I attend live concerts a lot and trust me, with the right gear and recording you will get very close to a live drum.

The thing I'm talking about is the transient attack of the drum. It's not just highs. A lot of upper bass and mids are also involved in reproducing this sound. But the initial attack is mostly on the mids and highs. The upper bass adds body to the sound. This gives that immediacy. A rim shot sounds even more impressive. It's more dynamic and jumps right out of the speakers and hit you hard. Your speakers are more than capable of reproducing it. I have connected my speakers to a many different types of equipments and receivers just won't cut it when it comes to dynamics. It's going to sound thin and a little on the bright side.

Maurice

[reeltrouble1]

Waaa, Bliss, reading about audio and peeps advice is fun and a bit of a "fix". talking about our systems is only second to time with them. Hearing Hi-Fi beats it hands down. At the Fest you will hear Hi-fi, tell Mom and Dad a very large LEO will look after you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ps--I would not mention the "random thought" thing I sometimes post!!:eek:

RT1

[read-alot]

Audiobliss, I finally made it over to Winston yesterday and found Custom's new location. When we found the room with all the B&Ws I asked to demo the Rotel and told my wife to get ready for what was supposed to put my system in the weeds and I really believed it was going to blow my SDAs away. Well you know where Im headed and it wasn't until my wife looked me with this bewildered look and said the Polk's sound better. It may be the tubes of the Dodd that made the piano sound closer to a live performance than what we listened yesterday. They offered to let me try the 1072 on my setup one weekend and I will probably do that soon. I work weird hours now that our season (Cup Racing) has started but if your ever on the west side off I-77 on 421 you are welcome to stop by and let me know what you think.

Mike

[read-alot]

I probably should mentioned that my system is now.

SDA 2 (RDO silk domes)
Phase Linear 400 (modded)
Dodd ELP (separate power supply) (E188cc SQ tubes)
Outlaw ICs
MIT Shotgun 2 speaker cables
Panny rp82 that the 1072 will replace for audio (Im keeping it for video)
HSU STF 2

[halo]

I work weird hours now that our season (Cup Racing) has startedMikeWhat do you do?

Bliss - room treatments are a great place to start experimenting. You can change the sound for less money and, as you move up the food chain, you continue to reap the benefits.

[audiobliss]

read-alot
I had no idea you were so close. Was Wednesday your frist visit to Custom Home Hi-Fi? What was your general impression of the store? If you remember, who was it who helped you?

I didn't mean to imply the B&W's were the best speaker or that they would trump SDA's or anything like that. I just thought that system sounded much superior than my system. I'm sure the SDA's would have at least as much of the commanding presence and room-energizing capabilities as the B&W's.

[read-alot]

What do you do?

Bliss - room treatments are a great place to start experimenting. You can change the sound for less money and, as you move up the food chain, you continue to reap the benefits.


I work for Dodge Research and Development now.

I've worked on Cup cars since 1973.

[read-alot]

read-alot
I had no idea you were so close. Was Wednesday your frist visit to Custom Home Hi-Fi? What was your general impression of the store? If you remember, who was it who helped you?

I didn't mean to imply the B&W's were the best speaker or that they would trump SDA's or anything like that. I just thought that system sounded much superior than my system. I'm sure the SDA's would have at least as much of the commanding presence and room-energizing capabilities as the B&W's.

audio, That was my first visit to the new store. I thought it was ok but back in the room with the B&Ws it seemed damp and musty like the carpet had been wet. I should have clarified my post to state that I was expecting to leave with my feelings hurt about how that system killed my little rig.
What was the ticket on that setup?

[I-SIG]

While I often prefer the experience of a live performance, I more often prefer the sound of a good recording.

Sorry this is late joining back in, but I hear. The thing I to keep in mind about recordings, whether they be studio or live, is how they reproduce the actual environment where the musicians are playing the music.

Wes

[audiobliss]

audio, That was my first visit to the new store. I thought it was ok but back in the room with the B&Ws it seemed damp and musty like the carpet had been wet. I should have clarified my post to state that I was expecting to leave with my feelings hurt about how that system killed my little rig.
What was the ticket on that setup?
Wow, I didn't notice any of those things about the back room, lol! I probably just couldn't keep my eyes off that Bryston equipemtn and remote!

What was the ticket on that setup? Probably my background. Coming from improperly setup Klipsch speakers with a myriad of poor to good equipment behind them, the B&W and Bryston combo was amazing! However, if I were accustomed to a sweet SDA setup, I might not have liked it near as much.


I think I've decided to, as cheaply as possible, get as much out of my system as possible before throwing up my hands and admitting I bought the wrong speakers. I should have a CDP on the way soon, and next will be a tube preamp, hopefully a Dodd ELP.

At the moment, I'm inclined to think I won't dabble much with cables and wiring. I just hope I'm able to position these speakers at least more optimally.

[read-alot]

Let me rephrase- How much was that system we listened too?

I know they asked me $750 for the Rotel but I didnt look at what the Brystons
or the B&Ws ticket was.

[audiobliss]

Oh, LOL! I totally misunderstood what you said. The Rotel was $700 or $800. Since he told you $750, I assume he told me $800 (wonder why :confused:). The Bryston BP25 preamp was $2,600, and the amp was $3,300. I'm not sure what the B&W's cost, but I'm sure someone else here can tell us what they cost.

Tuesday I only listened to the 803D, and didn't much pay attention to what else they had. Do you remember what the other B&W's were? I'm planning on going back tomorrow afternoon.

[BOWLMAN]

audiobliss, Glad to hear you listened to the B&W 803D speakers.The 803S costs about $5,000 the 803D is an upgrade it costs between $6,000-$8,000 depending on the dealer. I own a pair of 703s cost $3,000 , but you get full price when you upgrade to a higher level.Check out the 800D...

[audiobliss]

I've been trying to think of albums and particular songs that I want to listen to through this B&W rig (and any other rigs I end up 'auditioning'). My list is based more on what I know and love, than what is well recorded, since so far, I don't know what is well recorded. So far, here's the list:


Alabama:
Born Country

Allison Krauss:
When You Say Nothing At All

Big Mon:
Darlin' Corey

Billy Joel:
And So It Goes
The Night is Still Young
The Stranger

Brad Paisley
Whiskey Lullaby (duet with Allison Krauss)

Chris Isaak:
King of the Road
Wrong to Love You

Delbert McClinton:
Have a Little Faith In Me
Miss You Fever

The Eagles:
Hotel California

Elvis Presley:
I Really Don't Want to Know
Make the World Go Away
Suspicious Minds
Always On My Mind
Guitar Man

Eric Clapton:
White Room
Crossroads

Floyd Cramer:
Last Date

Frankie Valli:
Silence Is Golden
December, 1963

Garth Brooks:
Mr. Midnight
The Storm

James Taylor:
Carolina
Fire & Rain


I'm sure that list isn't really comprehensive, but that's what I've come up with so far. Now, my question is this: How should I take those songs to the store(s) to listen to them? Should I just slowly bring in a few CD's at a time and listen to them? Or should I make a CD with those songs on it? I was planning on ripping all the songs to my hard drive via EAC in .wav format and then making a CD, but then I got to wondering if that'd be kinda shooting myself in the foot. Do you think It'd make a big difference to my ears (ha, like anyone can answer that one) to use a copy instead of the original?

Thanks!

[Joey_V]

ABliss...

I heard the BW 802D and 803D powered by the Rotel RB1090 (which in side by side comparison, beat out the Krell 400xi and Rotel RB1091 monos) today. I must say, those BW are superb. They were very resolute and I'm liking the new BW Diamond tweeters more and more each time I hear them. The older aluminum tweeters still found on the 804S is no match - overly sibilant and difficult to appreciate.

The new Diamonds are truly a marvel - better than JM Lab's beryllium I think. Cohesive, resolute, yet in complete control. I like it a LOT.

Now... did the 802D (properly driven) at $12K make me think twice about my $11K Martin Logan Summits? I wont lie.. sure, but still no cigar... though if there were no Summits, I wouldnt mind dumping that cash in the 802D.

Oh.. but I have to hear the Wilson Sophias ($12K) first... :).

Enjoy my friend... that BW system you are digging (provided it's the Diamond series) is truly a shoulder above the previous BW generation... truly a phenom of a speaker.

I am generally apathetic towards BW speakers (especially those without the FST driver) due to price, but I believe that the 803D, 802D are truly superb. Are they worth the cash? Depends if you have it. If you dont, you probably wont.

[Joey_V]

audiobliss, Glad to hear you listened to the B&W 803D speakers.The 803S costs about $5,000 the 803D is an upgrade it costs between $6,000-$8,000 depending on the dealer. I own a pair of 703s cost $3,000 , but you get full price when you upgrade to a higher level.Check out the 800D...

The 803D cost $8K at my dealer - and I'm sure this is at all dealers since 3 dealers quoted me the exact same price... prior to any haggling.

A truly superb speaker I must say. Listening to the D's again with proper amplification has changed my overall opinion of the BW brand.

[audiobliss]

So, what's the consensus about using burned CD's as demo discs?

[danger boy]

So, what's the consensus about using burned CD's as demo discs?


personally i wouldn't do it.. and i don't want to start any kind of argument. but the original is going to sound better IMHO. a copy or burned CD is just that a copy.. although a exact digital copy.. it may still lose some audio quailty or be subjected to compression.

[danger boy]

So, what's the consensus about using burned CD's as demo discs?


personally i wouldn't do it.. and i don't want to start any kind of argument. but the original is going to sound better IMHO. a copy or burned CD is just that a copy.. although a exact digital copy.. it may still lose some audio quailty or be subjected to compression.

[shack]

So, what's the consensus about using burned CD's as demo discs?
It's all I use as a demo. I have two burned discs with about 15 songs each that I take whenever I demo gear. It is a true audio copy with no compression so SQ is every bit as good as the original tracks. I get comments all the time from the sales people about the quality and selection of the music I use. It is well recorded, demanding, revealing music that I like and it lets me get a really good demo of the gear.

[audiobliss]

Ok, it's settled; I'm making a demo disc. As soon as I figure out how to use EAC, that is.

[unc2701]

personally i wouldn't do it.. and i don't want to start any kind of argument. but the original is going to sound better IMHO. a copy or burned CD is just that a copy.. although a exact digital copy.. it may still lose some audio quailty or be subjected to compression.

1)Unless you add compression, it's not going to be on there. If it's an exact digital copy, you will not lose audio quality in the copying stage (see below)

2)I've done bit comparisons on subsequent rips using EAC and I've done comparisons with the ripped vs original. In both cases they were identical. In case you're wondering, I was REALLY bored at work (and I managed to do the comparisons using SAS, if any of you know what that is. Yep, bored).

Now the CD-R media might be more likely to induce jitter in a particular system, but as far as getting the music over to the disc, you'll be fine.

[heiney9]

personally i wouldn't do it.. and i don't want to start any kind of argument. but the original is going to sound better IMHO. a copy or burned CD is just that a copy.. although a exact digital copy.. it may still lose some audio quailty or be subjected to compression.

No arguing here, but with a program like EAC it will be an exact bit for bit copy. That's what it was specifically designed for. I can't say for other ripping programs, but EAC is the real deal and it works...quite well.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :p

H9

[audiobliss]

After ripping with EAC, how would you recommend burning to a CD?

[crazy]

I thought of adding to this thread - I spend the better part of yesterday listening to 802D running on McIntosh gear. I couldn't believe how good it sounded. The rocks songs was alright - I mean they were a little better than say the 803 or even the 804, little crisper and better sound stage. But when I put on a classic Dave Brubeck Quartet piece - Take 5 - the thing just transformed the room into a club with a live band playing. It was unreal and at the end of the performance, I almost wanted to get up and clap - it was that real. After the audition, the same song on the 804s and the 703 sounded like crap!

[Joey_V]

I thought of adding to this thread - I spend the better part of yesterday listening to 802D running on McIntosh gear. I couldn't believe how good it sounded. The rocks songs was alright - I mean they were a little better than say the 803 or even the 804, little crisper and better sound stage. But when I put on a classic Dave Brubeck Quartet piece - Take 5 - the thing just transformed the room into a club with a live band playing. It was unreal and at the end of the performance, I almost wanted to get up and clap - it was that real. After the audition, the same song on the 804s and the 703 sounded like crap!

This is why you dont listen to super speakers before you can afford them... or are willing to afford them. ;)

[crazy]

This is why you dont listen to super speakers before you can afford them... or are willing to afford them. ;)

I agree - however, I treated this as having just gone to an amazing concert. :)

[read-alot]

I probably should mentioned that my system is now.

SDA 2 (RDO silk domes)
Phase Linear 400 (modded)
Dodd ELP (separate power supply) (E188cc SQ tubes)
Outlaw ICs
MIT Shotgun 2 speaker cables
Panny rp82 that the 1072 will replace for audio (Im keeping it for video)
HSU STF 2

Just scored a set of original SRS and called Helen today for the silks so the big boys will replace the 2s.

[danger boy]

Just scored a set of original SRS and called Helen today for the silks so the big boys will replace the 2s.


Nice.... good going.

[read-alot]

Thanks, I am very happy. I listened to a pair of these back when I bought the 2s but couldn't afford the 3 grand at the time as my family was very young. My CRS set just lost their RDO upgrade for the time being, I have the right side silked until the next load gets here.

audiobliss, sorry to highjack your thread man. I just use the burner that came with my notebook. My wife uses an external Memorex that does DVD and CDs.

[audiobliss]

No problem, read-alot. This thread was pretty much dead with regards to its original subject anyways, so it's no big deal. Congrats on the speakers!

:)

[audiobliss]

Well, today I did some more auditioning. I brought along my Ted Nugent, Big Mon, and Frankie Valli CDs. Instead of the 803D's, they had the 802D's hooked up to the Rotel RCD-1072 and Bryston gear.

I popped Ted Nugent in frist. I was really surprised. Not in a good way, however. The music was just as how I've heard Sid refer to B&W - dry and lifeless. I just couldn't get into the music at all. It totally lacked any element of emotion. All the drums and guitar sequences I love so much were there, in spades, being produced very powerfully, but it just wasn't captivating in the least. I began to suspect I liked the 803D's better, but then I remembered I hadn't played this material on them before. So, I put in my Big Mon CD, which I have played through the 803D's before.

It was back. It was amazing. The music was, somehow, emotional and involving again. Just how I had remembered it on the 803D's. I guess the B&W's aren't really suited to reproducing such music as Ted Nugent. But I still think I preferred the 803D's over the 802D's, though I'd have to listen to them both again to be sure.

I also managed to swing by Elite AudioVideo (http://www.elite-audiovideo.com/). Bart was just as nice and cordial as ever, and was more than happy to get things going in the main speaker room for me. I told him I had been listening to some B&W's earlier, so he hooked up a pair of Monitor Audio Gold Reference 20 (http://www.monitoraudio.com/products/gold/series/Gold_Reference_20.htm) speakers. (Note: Those are from the previous line, not the new Gold Signature line.) This system was fed by a NAD C521 CDP and a B&K pre and amp, though it also went through one of those little switching boxes.

I started off with Ted Nugent again. At first I was a little disappointed again, because though the music came through great, his voice was very recessed sounding, as if he were far removed from the scene. But I quickly got used to that and just decided that's the way it was recorded, and soon came to be seriously impressed with these little speakers. They're very noticeably smaller than my Klipsch, but boy are they every bit as commanding! It really was astonishing to see such small floorstanders to fill up the room with such confidence and authority. The more I listened, the more I was amazed by them. They produced every little detail down to the tee, and the bass was nothing short of spectacular.

Next I put in the Big Mon CD, and it was every bit as phenomenal as it was on the 802D and 803D. Finally I put in my Frankie Valli CD, and it sounded great, too.

This particular pair was in a beautiful gloss black finish, and were on sale for $2,000 for the pair, down from the $3,500 regular price. They seriously have me thinking, though I most definitely don't have the money for them.

Lemme close by saying that, after having listened to the 803D and 802D for hours before, I would not in the least bit be disappointed to end up with those MA GR20 speakers instead, though I'm sure I would want to hear the B&W's a few times just to assure myself.

I'm still in shock of what such a small little speaker can do!!

[Joey_V]

Sometimes I feel that emotionality is very dynamic and can change easily given different moods and preconceptions of a product. I dont really like to base my thoughts of a speaker's capability based on emotionality too much, atleast I try not to.

That said, glad you found a solid speaker for less.

However, I am surprised that you said you had to adjust to the sound and you claim it to be the way it was recorded.... how are you able to come to that conclusion? It seems to me that if you convince yourself that's how a song is recorded, that idea in your head TOTALLY biases you towards that speaker - and changes your affinity towards emotionality for the better.

My .02.

[min888]

This happens to me before too, I went into a high end stereo store and the guy put on the 800D with some seriously expensive McIntosh amps and it sounded wonderful, so wonderful that I went home and decided to sell all of my stuff because mine was sounding like crap. I had the B&K Ref50 surround pre-amp driving a pair of Denon POA-1500 bi-amping the SDA-SRS (original version). Sold the piece of crap B&K. I somehow found this forum and began to tinker with the placement of the SRS and getting new electronic gears, now I think my system sounds much better, maybe close to the B&W now, it maybe worse than the B&W but it's not 30K worse than that B&W setup. I think I'm going back there to see how much worse my rig is compare to the B&W.

[audiobliss]

Why did I finally 'accept' that that's the way the CD is recorded? Because that's the way it has sounded on three different systems so far...and that's every system I've played it on. Excpet for my car system, which doesn't count since I still have the factory speakers.

Since I waited to admit that until I was listening to the Monitor Audio speakers, I also admit that the 802D's deserve a second chance. However, I was so blown away by the Monitor's power, presence, and detail, that I'm not sure a second chance will help much. Especially considering the drastic price difference.

[organ]

Bliss,
Now you should track down the exotic electrostats, ribbons, planars, etc and see what they have to offer.

[SRS_fan]

ok, i have the SRS and love them so i had to hear these $8k B&W series speakers.... FOR ME... no way--technically superior but without the ability to change a mind set. In my opinion,,,, the sound should make you feel not analyze. I do not listen for things but let the rush' decide. Its easier for me to tell what I like in this manner. Of course it could be the wire, preamp, amp, ozone layer etc. but in the end {the 'hi-end' store was doing their best to make a match - B&W has a sales rep to guide them in a optimum set up?

That being said.... I drove quite a distance to audition the 10k Summits and .... bought them! {did my best to take the floor models} -

7 more days and they should be here. {If you have a chance... the summits need to be on your list to visit}

Joey's system is posted over on the Logan site and Sweeeet! A pleasant suprise to see a crossover to the Polk sight.


* Music is my drug of choice *

[SRS_fan]

ok, i have the SRS and love them so i had to hear these $8k B&W series speakers.... FOR ME... no way--technically superior but without the ability to change a mind set. In my opinion,,,, the sound should make you feel not analyze. I do not listen for things but let the rush' decide. Its easier for me to tell what I like in this manner. Of course it could be the wire, preamp, amp, ozone layer etc. but in the end {the 'hi-end' store was doing their best to make a match - B&W has a sales rep to guide them in a optimum set up?

That being said.... I drove quite a distance to audition the 10k Summits and .... bought them! {did my best to take the floor models} -

7 more days and they should be here. {If you have a chance... the summits need to be on your list to visit}

Joey's system is posted over on the Logan site and Sweeeet! A pleasant suprise to see a crossover to the Polk sight.


* Music is my drug of choice *

[Joey_V]

WOWOW!!!!

Awesome choice there! What veneer did you pick? You gotta post pics over at the MLO site.... that's some great speakers you got there! I'm still working on my electronics as they are lagging and not showing the Summits' true potential.... soon soon. I'm glad we got another Polkie on board in the ML ship!

The Summits are truly STUNNERS! They are that good.... set them up right and you got nirvana infront of you. I did listen to some Wilsons and those were also awesome, you shouldve auditioned the Sophia before you bought the Summits just to get the idea of whatever challengers the Summits have at that $10,000 price point. Though, I think you made the right choice regardless... hehehe....

Which BW did you listen to? I think you listened to the 803D by the looks of the price... did you listen to the 802D? It gives up a little bit of extension to the mighty Summits' bass, but the 802D is a very formidable speaker nonetheless...

I've been a Polk fan for a long time that even with my Summits, I still miss my LSi9 - those have to be my favorite of all time in terms of sentimental value.

BTW, I see you got so excited that you posted twice!

See you over at MLO.com!!