MMC650 for Frontstage - Your thoughts?

[Topper]

Hi guys!

Been reading so much lately about the benefits of point-source that i've decided i want to try a good pair of coax for my frontstage rather than the more conventional components. After all my research, pretty much narrowed it down to the MMC650.

Now i've searched thru previous posts about this coax but most seem to be using em for just rears. Anyone got em as their pure source of highs? and installed in the fronts? would love to hear your thoughts.

Also how exactly do they differ from their components counterpart - the MMC6500?

[Topper]

Ooops forgot to mention the rest of my system for reference:

AMP: DD C4 (75w x 2 to power fronts and 150w x 2 to power sub)
SUB: Single DD1012 12" sub in ported box


Also need to tell you that i've never heard Polk speakers before and since they arent easily available where i am (Philippines), wont really get a chance to hear em before i get them. I'm pretty much going by purely the great things i've read about em online.

[Vestax]

The coaxials are decent and would make a great point source over the components and less phasing issues but one of the great things about going with components is staging, position, and being able to control its on or off axis response. Especially when most stock locations are in doors, it's harder to make coaxials give you good height and depth. Is budget limiting you to get components? What car is it?

[neomagus00]

excellent choice in going with the polks. however, if you have the money to spend for the components, by all means do it. you have infinitely more flexibility with components, and they're better speakers to boot (so even if you feel that the best position for the tweets is right on the mids, they'll still sound better than the coax)... if you have the cash, there's really no reason not to get the components

[1996blackmax]

As stated before, if buget is limiting you that's one thing. If it is not, I would recommend some components for the reasons stated above. Flexibility is pretty important in a vehicle.

[MacLeod]

Same here. The components are better speakers and have a better crossover.

Dont get too caught up in this point source issue. That would only really be a factor if both speakers were on axis with you. With the coaxials in the doors, the left one's tweeter is going to be way off axis while the right one will be about dead on. This will screw up not only the stage but overall SQ.

Go with the components, this way you can stick the tweeter wherever it sounds best.

[Topper]

drat! not quite what i wanted to hear :)

Anyways have always used compononents for the frontstage of my cars (Cliff Designs ages ago and more recently Crystal Mobilesound for my brother's car) but been reading so much bout the benefits of point-source that i wanted to give it a try and do something different. But now y'all are making me think twice :)


VESTAX:

Car's a 2003 Corolla sedan with stock front speaker locations placed very close to the kick-panels (low on the door and very forward).


NEOMAGUS & MACLEOD:

I know the crossover for the components has tweeter attentuation adjustment but is it superior in any other way? and from the specs the speakers seem extremely similar - do the components really have better have better stuff?


EVERYBODY:

Have always been a 'keep the tweeter as close as possible to the mids' kinda guy so all my previous cars had their components set this way (mids in stock door locations with tweets at the kickpanels) so was thinking since the stock locations for my corolla are so close to the kickpanels anyway, might as well try the whole point-source concept i've been hearing so much about.

Will components really automatically get me noticebly better sound over the coax? even with the aimable tweeter and with the above mentioned stock speaker locations?

As for the price, well normally it wouldnt be a factor except that Polks arent available where i live (Philippines) that when i factor in the additional fees its costing to get it to me, its coming out way higher than what i could get for some of the other speaks i was considerin namely:

- DLS MS6a
- Rainbow Soundlines <-- i really like this but blasted thing is outta stock and gonna be that way for the next few months still (though i can get the coaxial version for almost half the price am going to be spending for the MMC650)
- DD Seps - Kinda too entry-level for me



(holy smokes that was a long post. Sorry bout that peeps :))


EDIT: One of the goals i got is to have a better sounding system than some of my other car audio club buddies but doing it with coax speaks (yes i know its really lame but you know how it is right :))

[98thumpin]

yeah sure do. im a cheapskate im using db series speakers though ive heard go with the mmc speakers.

[neomagus00]

component speakers are better than their coaxial counterparts, in crossover quality (not just features) and speaker quality... they flat-out sound better... you've mentioned reading about the 'benefits of point-source' a couple times now... where are you doing your reading? as far as i know, the only way to know what's best is to try it all, something else components allow you to do (if the tweets sound best in your dash, screw your friends, and put the tweets in the dash!)

this is a polk forum, and they are an excellent speaker, but we do realise money is a part of life, so we'll help you choose a different brand, if you like...

what HU do you have?

[Topper]

Headunit is a Kenwood KDC-X8529:


(pulled from their website:)
Fully Motorized Slide-down Front Panel with TDF, Real Aluminium Face Panel Design, Advanced 3-D Multicolour FL Display (64 Colours), "ACDrive" (=Advanced Codec Drive) Function, G-Analyser, Supplied with Remote Control Unit, Supplied with PC Application Software CD-ROM(Phantnoise Media Manager), Tel Mute, Maximum Output Power : 50W x 4 (MOSFET Power IC), Gold Plated 3 Preouts with 5V Pre-output Level, Subwoofer Level & Low Pass Filter Adjustable, Built In Amp Mute Function, System Q-Ex/ System E's+, AUX Input, AAC Files Playback created by ex. Apple iTunesTM for Windows, WMA & MP3 Files Playback with ID-3 Tag Display, 24bit Burr Brown D/A Converter, Optional Apple iPodTM Interface Ready (KCA-IP500)

http://www.kenwoodaudio.com/common/images/ProductThumb/KDC-X8529_thn.jpg



As for the point-source thing, just articles i've come across the net and different forums i visit (termpro, sounddomain, carsound, etc.)

[98thumpin]

i knew nakamichi made home audio stuff didnt know they made car audio stuff too. my dad has a nakamichi stereo in his house with the matthew s polk signature sda-srs series speakers

[Topper]

Ok i just got an email about the price of the components version (MMC6500) and on its own it aint bad but once i factor in all the additional charges to get it to me, its coming out quite a huge bit over budget.

Ya really really REALLY sure those coax speaks will be disappointing? :)

[cam5860]

If your into sound quality coaxials are a waste of money bro. I had a set of the mmc650's they are good for coaxials but components sound a hell of a lot better.

If you don't have the extra money just pick you up a set of the polk DB6500 components in my opinion they sound much better than the mmc650's.

[Topper]

By the way here's some of the stuff i keep encountering around the net incase y'all were wondering:



"Point Source Speakers are Better....FACT....Back to Top

The next time you see a duck (sat on a pond) take two or three pieces of bread and throw them in the pond so that they land close together and at the same time. Watch the ripples produced and how they spead out - you will see they are very confused - hard to follow. Wait for the water to settle, then throw in a single piece of bread (away from the duck!) and observe how uniformly the ripples spread out in a pure circle.
This is an EXACT analogy of how sound waves travel in air. A single source (one speaker) produces a series of vibrations (ripples) that travel out from the speaker in a coherent (all together) fashion. The result - beautiful clear, direct sound with no confusion. Multiple speakers (2 or more) produce vibrations exactly like the confused ripples you saw when throwing multiple objects into the pond and produce lots of incoherent (confused) vibrations.
This is complicated by the fact that as you change position (even slightly) in front of a multiple speaker, you hear different combinations of ripples (vibrations) that affect your perception of the sound - you lose focus.

Given the pond illustration, a single speaker must have the edge when it comes to producing a focused, coherent sound front and this is true. The difficulty is that no single driver can reproduce the full range of sounds contained within the audio spectrum and we need both a woofer and tweeter to achieve this. The point source problem is solved very cleverly by mounting the tweeter at the center and on the same exact axis as, the woofer. This Dual Concentric approach CAN and DOES produce the same clearly focused pattern as a single speaker, but crucialy, now across the whole audio spectrum. Hence we get the best of both worlds. "




Hope y'all dont think am being stubborn or anything like that as am really just trying to educate myself with the facts. If you asked me before, without a doubt i woulda agreed that components are far superior to coaxs but nowadays we got significantly better coax speaker options out there with better mids and pointable tweets and outboard crossovers rather than just cheap filter caps that i really aint too sure anymore. Hmmm... anyways i do appreciate all your thoughts and comments peeps so please keep it comming and will probably make my decision by monday or tuesday on which to go with :)




CAM5860:

Just outta curiosity, could ya please post how both these speaks we're installed in your car. (like where were the mmc650s installed before? and when you switched em for the DB6500, where'd you install the tweets? stuff like that).

Also we're the speaks the only stuff that got switched during that upgrade?

[PolkThug]

Problem with the pond analogy, assuming the pieces of bread weigh the same, is that the two pieces of bread are creating the same wavelenghths, which are of course, colliding. Your mid and tweet will be producing different wavelengths, assuming there is a crossover.

[neomagus00]

they will indeed be producing different wavelengths, and so intereference of that kind happens only around the xover frequency, but all the other stuff that goes wrong in a car has so much more of an effect it's not even funny...

consider:
phase errors (everything in the signal path introduces some, most especially the xover... these are really hideous errors)
reflections (the reflections in a car are more numerous and nearly as powerful as the main signal - consider whipping a whole loaf of bread into the pond, that's about the right deal)
even if you do mount as a point-source, and even ignoring the existing phase errors, you're still out of phase (look at home speakers - they often mount the tweet behind the plane of the mid, with good reason)

altogether, the benefits in a normal system are minimal, as long as you're patient (i.e. you find the best spot for the tweets by experimentation, not by slapping them where you think they'll sound good)

reason i asked what HU you have is cause if you have time alignment, point-source is even less fun - you can emulate any pathlength you choose, much tasty for imaging :p

p.s. that duck/pond/bread analogy is correct, it's just not very useful in a car... in a home, that's a whole 'nother story...

[98thumpin]

id like to go with polk componet speakers but they are round and my car takes oval speakers, am i limited to the oval speakers, or are there adapter plates, for the round speakers?

[98thumpin]

also where should i mount the tweets in my car dash, a pillars, doors

[1996blackmax]

- Rainbow Soundlines <-- i really like this but blasted thing is outta stock and gonna be that way for the next few months still (though i can get the coaxial version for almost half the price am going to be spending for the MMC650)


I have heard very good things regarding the Soundlines from Rainbow. If given the chance I would jump on those.

I read about an IASCA sanctioned event over in Spain where these guys beat out some $1000 plus Focal Utopias in an SQ competition.

[jimmyjam_]

do not use oval speakers. they do not perform as well as round speakers. my SR 6.5"s came with 6x9 adapter plates, if your speakers don't come with them then get a piece of plywood or mdf and make some.
oh yeah btw the Polk SRs care convertible to coax by unscrewing the phase plug in the woofer and replacing it with a tweeter mount (included with the speakers also). yielding the best damn coaxs in existence. granted they are expensive.

the thing I don't like about run-of-the-mill coax speakesr is they usually just have 1st order crossovers, ie 1 inductor and 1 cap glued onto the basket somewhere. I have seen a set of Memphis coaxes with external 2nd order crossovers that have better potential of sounding good.

and as far as placement goes, your best bet is to put some double sided tape on the back of the speakers and play around to see what works best for your speakers and your car in particular.

[MacLeod]

Again, ideally having the mid and tweeter close together is the best way to do it BUT a car is nowhere near ideal. For one thing, one set of speakers is going to be a lot more off axis than the other so youll get different frequencies at different intensities. Second, having the tweeters in the floor will almost always pretty much put your stage in the floor. At best itll be a rainbow stage.

The advantages you get in staging and imaging far outweigh any benefits to having the tweeter close to the mid.

[MacLeod]

do not use oval speakers. they do not perform as well as round speakers.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using oval speakers if theyre well made. The old argument about them not being as rigid as a round speaker and thus open to more distortion is only relative at the flea market level of speakers.

Ill stack the MB Quart 6x9 components up against any round speaker in its class.

[audiobliss]

I've never heard of this point-source idea. Made for interesting reading, for sure.

The pond analogy was pretty good, though not 100% accurate. One thing that stands out to me is, you keep saying that the tweeter is 'pointable'; if you point the tweeter toward you, it's no longer on the same axis as the mid, thus destroying your whole point-source theme.

[MacLeod]

Yeah, but it seems to be coming from the same place.

Im just not sold on the point source thing. I dont dispute it works best but I just believe the difference is very small and not worth the deffeciencies in staging. Staging makes the sound quality for my personal tastes. It bugs me to no end having all the music coming from one side or from the floor.

[Topper]

JIMMYJAM:

Yeah but thats the whole reason am considering the MMC650 (even though its a heck of a lot more hassle to get) in that it is far from run-of-the-mill. They not only got 2nd order outboard crossovers but the speaks themselves look great and somewhat high-end and the tweets are pointable as well. This and the JL Audio XR series coaxs seem like the best coaxs out there (not comparing component convertibles ofcourse) but keep hearing mixed reviews bout the JLs while these Polks seem consistently awsome :).


1996BLACKMAX:

I have personally heard them and they are amazing and well deserved of their reputation but since their priced really well over here, they keep running outta stock and it'll be a few months till they arrive again so decided to remove em from the options.


MACLEOD:

Yep thats the prob i had/have with all my other cars when the tweets we're in the kickpanels. They all sounded great but the rainbow effect was very pronounced. Pretty sure i'll encounter this again if i do go with the coaxs so am gonna have to do quite a bit of pondering over the weekend :)


AUDIOBLISS:

Ya it also got me thinking quite a bit when i first chanced upon it. Wish i could find that really great article bout it that i read before so i could post it for ya but google has been failing me :). If i do come across it, will definitely send it your way.

As for the pointable tweets, yep was aware of that but am thinking atleast with this set i got the option whereas other coaxs am stuck. Could technically just keep em pointing straight and on-axis and put this whole 'rippling pond' theory to the test :)

[Topper]

Once again lemme just say i appreciate all the comments coming in and in about T minus 48 to 56 hours, will make my decision and order whichever set i finally decide on.

[1996blackmax]

1996BLACKMAX:

I have personally heard them and they are amazing and well deserved of their reputation but since their priced really well over here, they keep running outta stock and it'll be a few months till they arrive again so decided to remove em from the options.



I know a guy here in the U.S. that is an authorized dealer for them. He has a group deal going on for them on another website that I am a member of. I am thinking about picking up a set for my wife's car :) . The $220 dollars shipped to my door is too good of a deal to pass up. I will probably contact him in a couple of days or so :D.

[Topper]

- OT -

1996BLACKMAX:

If you have a subwoofer already and your sep's amp's atleast 50 to 60w per channel, try to get the 'Kick' versions of the Soundlines instead. They supposedly offer significantly better performance in the midbass region but shouldnt be played below 80hz at a 12db slope (hence the need for the sub). They got a great paper on these 'kick' version speaks on the download section of their website.

EDIT: Since Rainbow's website is a bit tough to find, thought i'd post it for ya to make it easier - http://car.rainbow-audio.de/home/home.php?lan=2

[1996blackmax]

I read that article a little while ago, good advice :). Actually, it is already on my computer :D.

I had looked into getting some of their Profi Line Kickbass components (CS 265 Profi Kick) before. I ended up getting their Germanium components. The reviews in Europe were right on regarding this set. I will see what the wife says regarding adding a sub, she was not into the whole sub in the trunk thing before. If she says it's a go, I will see about getting those for her car.

[98thumpin]

so in other words u can put a round speaker in a oval hole. do they make oval component speakers?

[Topper]

so in other words u can put a round speaker in a oval hole. do they make oval component speakers?


You mean stuff like these:

http://car.rainbow-audio.de/files/static/products/speakers/231569.jpg

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/images/normal/6800cs.jpg

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/images/normal/xr570csi.jpg

looks like you got quite a few options bud :)

[98thumpin]

choiuces choices choices. when i first thought about a system i said new speakers an amp and a sub simple, no im thinkin compnents, crossovers, eqs, line drivers , gidgets and gadgets, im thinken two amps one for the speaks and one for the sub.it wild

[1996blackmax]

That is the way I have my setup, two amps run my whole system.

[98thumpin]

arc audio is still a bit pricey but my dad says they make great stuff. and i like the way they look, and the fact that they have a partnership with foose says something too. but i barely make 300 dollers a week. and to get an arc amp would take almost to whole paychecks. so gimme somthing arc quality but not the price. and im looking for 1000 watts of power. the subs only want 750 but they peak at 1500. so does 1000 sound about right.?

[1996blackmax]

Well Polk's amps have gotten nice reviews. Arc Audio's KAR series are less expensive than their XXK line, are solid amps, and are still desinged by Nikola Engineering. In the past I had Kicker amplifiers and I was happy with their stuff. One of their amps, my 4ch. ZX460 lasted me about 8 years. Eclipse also makes good amps. Basically try to get an amp from a reputable company that has the power, and features that you want.

It will be hard to get ARC quality for cheap. I know someone who is selling his used 2500-XXK's for a little over $500 dollars each (http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/amplifiers/xxk_2500.htm). Not sure if he still has them though. There was another guy I knew that was selling his 4150-XXK and two 2500-XXKS but those were gone as of yesterday. I know it is not what you want to pay, but it goes to show you that even at the asking price of over $500 dollars used those things fly. The 2500-XXK will put out over 1,050 watts RMS. You could try out ebay, but you have to be pretty careful there. I would stick to trying to get something with a warranty from an authorized dealer. Hit up your local stores as they may have some stock from the older lines for good prices.


One thing, try to stick around the rating for the subs. I usually go over some, but you have to be careful with how you set your gains.

[1996blackmax]

Here is an Alpine that will do over 600 watts at 2ohms for $330 bucks. Nice deal I think.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-tpGlzp3ecIq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&I=500MRDM605

[98thumpin]

yeah i looked at it im still keeping options open though.

[audiobliss]

You're not willing to set aside two paychecks for an Arc Audio amp? That strikes me as odd. I'd have no problems with saving for a month for something of that caliber. My only problem is I'm not making any money right now! :p

Oh, and I certainly wouldn't think of a 'partnership' with any company like Foose as a good thing.

[98thumpin]

would the arc audio be worth it? or would it be good to go with a phonix gold amp. i was thinkig the 15.0.1 amp

[audiobliss]

The Phoenix Gold amp won't disappoint. However, Arc Audio equipment is going to be light years ahead of the PG stuff, sound better, most likely last longer, and just be better investment. If you're making enough money to buy one, I would personally save up for an extra week to get one. I mean, an extra month? 2 months? Might not be worth it. But if you don't have a lot of bills, etc. saving up for an extra week isn't a big deal, imo.

Of course, the decision also depends on how discerning you are with your music, how long you're planning on keeping, etc. I mean, it doesn't matter if the Arc Audio would last for ever and serve as an amp in 8+ systems if you're going to use it for 2 years and sell it. But then again, it'd probably hold its value better.

[98thumpin]

why sell if it works. i think ill go with the arc audio amp. for the subs should i go arc for speakers too or would the polk c 400 be all right for that. and how much does a c 400 run?

[audiobliss]

The Plolk C400.4 is $400 (http://www.cardomain.com/item/POLC4004) at www.soundomain.com The C400.4 is a nice amp, and we've already established that Arc Audio makes great amps. I guess it really depends on 1) which has the power/features you want, 2) which is most accessible/cheapest, and 3) if you want to have both amps matching.

I'd say you'd be happy with either, but I kinda like having all my amps matching. Though it really doesn't matter.

What speakers have you decided to go with? Or if you're not certain, what ones are you leaning toward the most?

[98thumpin]

im leaning towards either the db components or mmc components. i just want them to be oval so there easy to put in. i m thinking components in the front and coaxs in the rears. or turning the components into coaxes.

[audiobliss]

Definitely get components for the front, and don't mount them coaxially unless you have to. Get the MMC if you can afford it (they'd just be one week's pay!). Don't worry about oval. Just get the round components and make an adapter plate IF they don't come with one.

What kind of car is all this going in?

[98thumpin]

a 1998 ford crown victoria 4.6liter.

[98thumpin]

my car has oval 5x7s in the front as it is stock and no tweeters that i see so i know they are coax speakers. its an odd location for the speakers right near the dash in the door by the door handle not down near kickpanel, but at least my leg is below the speaker. i feel it would be hard to mount the round ones there.

[audiobliss]

Dude, I feel for you. You have my sincere condolences. LOL!

Well, I was going to suggest that you forego the rear speakers if you had a small car, but if you have that large of a car and haul passengers around a lot, you might should get some rear speakers. Of course, you could just get the front speakers first and add the rear speakers when/if you see fit.

Just running front speakers will improve the soundstage and imaging, and plus it's cheaper. That's why I usually recommend it, and am going with just fronts in my 2-door Cherokee.

[audiobliss]

Nah, I highly doubt they're coaxial speakers. They're just probably full range 5x7 speakers.

[98thumpin]

they dont sound bad but i like loud music and they sound perfect with the vol know about 3/4 the way turned up but its not loud enough for me i drive withg windows down alot, and on the highway where wind noise is a prob my car doesnt have much road noise at all. and i do haul people around alot.

[dbraves8]

i like polk speakers

[dbraves8]

i need

[dbraves8]

ten post

[dbraves8]

so i can

[dbraves8]

send

[dbraves8]

a private message sorry for doing all this hahah

[MacLeod]

I dont know why but that cracked me up! :D

[badfireguy]

Ok, for what it's worth. I have been running 6500's in my truck for four years. I have taken them out and put them back seven times now. I have tried everything from Dynaudio to Focal to Vifa/Peerless. I put the Polks back everytime. Right now you can steal them for less than $140.00 AMERICAN. The installation of the tweeters is as simple as it gets and you can place them where they should be, not where the factory decided put them. I guarantee you that you will be hard pressed to find a more reliable, cleaner sound that can take the abuse that these will. Trust me, mine rarely see anything less than 300 wpc day in, day out. Just remember to remove the magnet covers if your doors are less than a foot deep.

Alpine CDA-9833 (I did not like the 9887)
Alpine Mrv-T420 X 2
Alpine Mrd-501
Carver M 4120
Polk Momo M-104 X2
KEF 690-Q's
Polk Momo 6500's
(About all I could put in a Nissan Frontier)
I would be happy to email you some pic's for install ideas)