Can't Get LSi7's to sound good for rock music

[DForeman]

I have Polk LSi7 speakers hooked up to a Denon 2106 receiver (100w/c). The sub is a Polk PSW 303. Although jazz music sounds superb, I just can't get rock music to sound great.

I am talking about 2-channel sound here.

Any suggestions?

[audiobliss]

I would say that you're not going to get the LSi7's to sound really good for any type of music until you get an external amplifier to push 'em. Hook up one of them, and you'll be blown away by the increased performance.

[Airplay355]

Agreed...Try getting a nicer sub too.

[McLoki]

External amp will help alot. Another thing to play with is the sub crossover and volume. Alot of times bass really helps define rock music and if that is not right, you just won't be able to get the impact you need to enjoy rock.

As opposed to most music where you will lower the crossover setting to try and let the speaker play as much as possible - try and raise the crossover to get more of the bass moved to the subwoofer. (as you move the crossover up, you will be able to locate the sub by the sound so it better be in the front of your room, preferably between the LSi7's.

It could also be just to small of a speaker for your room. (but the only LSi line you will be able to play off a reciever with even a chance of sucess)

All ideas are just worth playing with between sessions of looking for a nice amp. :)

Michael

[danger boy]

some receivers will power the LSi's ok.. but like it was mentioned already. adding a two channel amp to power those. will make a big difference.

[Zero]

First and foremost, your Denon, fine piece as it may be - is not going to be able to show you what the LSi's are fully capable of. Not even knowing your room and source, I'd say you are getting about 50% of their performance right about now.

Now for the worse news; The Lsi-7 is not a 'rock' speaker. Really, none of the LSi speakers are. Its not that they cant do it. In fact, they can do it real well on the right equipment - but for the most part, its just not their forte.

And just to rain on everyones parade; You do NOT always need seperates. While its easy, and it typically works, there are receivers out there that can get the job done, sometimes even better than entry level seperates. Hell, I've owned a HK 3470 thats spanked seperates from: Carver, Amc, Adcom, Odyssey, and Rotel. Yes, I meant to say 'spanked'. Typically any receiver is a huge compromise, but there are sleepers out there that perform well and beyond what they should...

[mldennison]

maybe you can give us a better description of what you think is lacking? you said jazz music sounds good so you have some idea what you are looking for here. so what is it that is wrong with your rock cd's, is it the detail, soundstage, low end, volume...

[DForeman]

At higher volumes (-15 or so) the mids and highs start sounding somewhat distorted with a definite lack of soundstage.

[2+2]

At higher volumes (-15 or so) the mids and highs start sounding somewhat distorted with a definite lack of soundstage.

Sounds like your reaching the limits of your AVR.....although at -15, it shouldnt be.....

[mldennison]

well that sounds to me like an amplification problem if things sound good at lower volumes but not so good at higher ones.

[madmax]

For sure, a higher powered high current 2 channel amplifier is needed. Something over a few hundred watts per channel. Also, if the lsi's are new they will sound better after about 200 hours of use. Pretty strange but it is very noticeable.
madmax

[Joey_V]

Amplification problem... your 7s need more power.... or you need 9s.

I think what you're looking for is a cleaner midrange... and the 9s have it, or if you go with higher current amplification, you will get a better balance and cohesiveness from the 7s. Rock music is very messy and very busy... the only time I've actually enjoyed rock music is on my ML, if that says anything.

[DForeman]

The consenus seems to be to get an external amp. Any suggestions for brand and power. I don't want to spend more than $500.

Thanks all for your help here. Appreciate it!

[steveinaz]

Used or possibly Outlaw amps at that price. Try to get at least 150 watts, 200watts recommended.

[audiobliss]

Here's a list of links to manufacturers websites that make amps. If you need to stay under $500, you most definitely have to go with used. I'd keep a look out in the fea market here, and check out audiogon frequently.

As for power, I'd recommend 200-250wpc. I wouldn't settle for any less.

Audiosource Amplifiers (http://www.audiosource.net/amplifiers.html)
Audiosource could be good if you're on a really tight budget. They're mostly pro amps, and so aren't really suited to home audio, much less speakers of the same caliber as the LSi series.

AMC Amplifiers (http://www.amchome.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AO&Category_Code=Amplifiers)
Outlaw Audio Products Page (http://outlawaudio.com/products/index.html)
AMC and Outlaw are also good if you're on a budget, as they're more affordable new than a lot of other amps. I'd much rather use AMC or Outlaw than Audiosource.


The rest are pretty much 'high-end', though some are obviously more so than others. With the rest of these, you're basically going to be satisfied until you seriously get into critical listening and demanding the most your system can deliver.

Adcom Amplifiers (http://www.adcom.com/amplifiers.htm)

NAD Electronics (http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifiers/index.htm)

B&K Products (http://www.bkcomp.com/products.asp)

Rotel Stereo Amplifiers (http://rotel.com/products/stereo-power-amplifiers.htm)

Anthem (http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/News1.html)

Sunfire Amplifiers (http://www.sunfire.com/amp.htm)

Parasound (http://www.parasound.com/index2.html)

Niles (http://www.nilesaudio.com/)

Odyssey Audio (http://www.odysseyaudio.com/)

Monarchy Audio (http://www.monarchyaudio.com/)

Bryston (http://www.bryston.ca/)

Krell (http://www.krellonline.com/index.php)

Musical Fidelity (http://www.musicalfidelity.com/mf/index.jsp)

[Zero]

Monarchy SM-70 PRO
Odyssey Khartago

That is, if you dont mind buying used on audiogon.

[Joey_V]

Rotel RB1070 or higher... if your receiver has preouts, you're set.

[Joey_V]

Or the Khartago.

[McLoki]

at a listening distance of about 10 feet I started getting dynamic compression from my LSi7's at about 103-105db. I think that is about the design limits of the LSi7's and I never tried to push them further. (I always turned it down when I started to hear the speakers strain)

In your case with a marginal amp (as far as pushing the 7's to their limits) I am sure you will run out of steam before that.

Any idea what SPL's you are running when you notice it starting to strain?

You have a bad combo of a mid-line AVR, a fairly hard to drive small speaker, and rock music (that, as stated, is not the LSi's forte - jazz, on the other hand, is).

best of luck, but until we get more info, I think all you will get is reiterations of the first 10 or 11 posts....

Michael

edit - a lot of responses since I started typing this reply..... thats what I get for trying to work while on the forum. :)

[Joey_V]

Mike ^^ has some good points.. you may be hitting compression limits of your LSi7... couple that with a mediocre amp secton off your AVR and we have bad reproduction.

[audiobliss]

Ok, I edited my list of manufacturers and added a bit more information. Hopefully it's helpful, and with any luck at all it's at least somewhat accurate! :D

[DForeman]

Thanks Audiobliss - this is very helpful.

And thanks to everyone else here as well.

Cheers

[heiney9]

In addition to all the other fine comments, I'd like to say that most of todays rock music is not recorded all that well. So I'm sure some of the limitations are a combo of the amplifier, driver compression and poor recording quality. Now there are some very well recorded rock albums, but a majority of them are not done very well. They are already distorted and compressed and when you try to play them loud on revealing speakers they sound like crapola. You may find even upgrading your power source, etc. you may have the same result. It's impossible to fix a poor recording unless you buy Bose :eek: :D .

H9

[adam2434]

What were your speakers before the 7s?

Maybe you're wanting a "bigger" sound than the 7s/sub combo can deliver.

I'm not knocking the 7s in any way. I just know that bookshelf/sub combos are not everyone's cup of tea, depending on music preferences and listening habits.

[Tour2ma]

Maybe you're wanting a "bigger" sound than the 7s/sub combo can deliver.Or at least than it is delivering...

At the risk of being run over by the "man, you gotta have a separate amp" band-wagon, I have to ask:


How are your 7's and sub set up? Are you using the Denon's x-over and sub-out, or the sub's x-over and speaker runs out of the Denon?
At what frequency are you crossing over? Have you played with this setting?
How did you calibrate your sub's level to work with the 7's?
How big is your room?
Have you played with the sub's position in the room?

You may really need more current to the 7's, but unless you've exhausted the possibilities to optimize your existing set-up, you shouldn't reach for your wallet just yet.

[DForeman]

1. I am using Denon's x-over and sub out.
2. Crossing over at 80 -- tried 100 but was too much
3. Not sure how to calibrate the sub - used Denon's auto set up function
4. Listening area room is about 13 x 15
5. Have moved the sub around with little success or difference

Also
Played with the equalizer a bit -- ended up raising the 63HZ level up 4 db which improved the overall sound.

My system does sound good at volumes up to -20, after that the mids and highs distort.

I am thinking of trading in the 7's for the 9's given that they have the extra mid.

[heiney9]

Dump the eq, they rarely do any good and as volume increases so does the distortion. Eq's add a lot of gain at the boosted frequencies. Still sounds like you are running out of current. If that's the case it's going to be worse with the 9's as they need even more current. If you have truely tried to optimize placement, and still get no satisfaction a seperate amp may be what's needed.

H9

[DForeman]

I realize I will need even more power with the LSi 9's but want a bigger speaker than the 7's. I am exchanging them now only because I am still within a 90 day window for trading up with the dealer.

I know little about amps so will take my time to research.

In the mean time I will enjoy lots of jazz at lower volumes on the 9's and bide my time for some loud rock 'n roll with a good amp.

[heiney9]

I realize I will need even more power with the LSi 9's but want a bigger speaker than the 7's. I am exchanging them now only because I am still within a 90 day window for trading up with the dealer.

I know little about amps so will take my time to research.

In the mean time I will enjoy lots of jazz at lower volumes on the 9's and bide my time for some loud rock 'n roll with a good amp.

Sounds like a good plan for the long run.....the 9's will be very nice. Sometimes this hobby takes patience.

H9

[audiobliss]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

[DForeman]

Should I upgrade the PSW303 sub to say a PSW404? My listening area isn't that big 13X15. Does quality improve as you go up in this series or just louder?

[McLoki]

Should I upgrade the PSW303 sub to say a PSW404? My listening area isn't that big 13X15. Does quality improve as you go up in this series or just louder?
For music Polk subs can be ok (although the one you have is not up to the LSi's quality.) For HT - you can do much better.

Is there any chance if you returned the 7's and the sub you could swing the 15's? (hardest LSi speaker to drive, but that and the 25's are the best for rock music IMO).

For 2 channel listening, no sub would be needed. If you chose to do HT at some point, you could wait to get a sub that matches the quality of your LSi's.

I know it may be quite a bit more money, but if you are talking only a few hundred bucks for the difference between the LSi15's and the LSi9's plus a 404 for listening to rock music - I would go for the 15's. (This is personal opinion, many consider the 9's the best of the LSi line - I just consider the 15's to hold that position)

Just throwing out another option.

Michael

[DForeman]

My first choice has always been to get the LSi15's but due to room configuration and size constraints I need to go with a smaller speaker.

Thanks for your input.

[Frank Z]

... due to room configuration and size constraints .
HMMM, how about a pic of the room or a drawing.

[Tour2ma]

Agree... in that size room I'd think your setup should work...
1. I am using Denon's x-over and sub out.
2. Crossing over at 80 -- tried 100 but was too much
3. Not sure how to calibrate the sub - used Denon's auto set up function
4. Listening area room is about 13 x 15
5. Have moved the sub around with little success or difference

Also
Played with the equalizer a bit -- ended up raising the 63HZ level up 4 db which improved the overall sound.First, I'd suggest you swap to the speaker level set-up and use your PSW's x-over. It should let you explore the 80-100 Hz x-over area that your Denon will not let you audition.

Calibration would be via SPL meter and test disk, e.g., AVIA, same as you would for HT. But you should get close by ear. The Denon's auto-function may not quite suit your ear. (You did have the mic at ear height at your listening position... yes?) Your EQ "tweak" is also telling you this.

Agree that the EQ is adding some distortion, but rather than simply increasing the mid's as you have been, try dropping the other frequencies. Of course, the freq range you've boosted is pretty much going to the sub, with some at the upper oend of the boosted range making its way to the 7's. Increasing the sub's level a tad may do the same thing. It would not be unusual to need different sub settings for different kinds of music.

On your move to 9's... Worth a shot, but, as you already implied, if your AVR is the limiting factor, it won't help. And as Sean (Zero) said early on, the LSi series just may not be for you. As popular as they are, tastes vary, and I am among those that prefer other Polks, past and present, to them... especially for rock...

Per pages 6 and 47 of your manual, you can set the 2106 up to bi-amp your 7's. Have you tried this? It should go a long way towards telling you if it's the lack of power or the nature of the speaker.

In the bi-amp mode, you can still utilize the 303's x-over. Simply route the LF speaker run through the sub, and the HF run directly to the 7's.

If you do end up opting to exchange, it would be worth auditioning the 9's and 15's with the music that's disappointing you on the 7's.

[DForeman]

Just tried bi-wiring the speakers and turning off the equalizer -- no change. The mids and highs sounded strained at the -15 volume level. It was worth a try, thanks.

Looks like I'll be shopping for an amp. Besides, I like the idea of having another component :D (you guys have me hooked).

[markmarc]

Moving up to the 9's is a good idea especially while you have the opportunity. How many hours of break-in have you given the 7's. On average 100 hours minimum is needed with most quality speakers.

First, what kind of speaker wire are you using?

Second, where are the speakers placed from side and back walls?

With the sound levels you want to listen at, a seperate amp is crucial. Audiogon is a good place to find a high current/power amp. For the money, the Adcom 555 at 200wpc will work nicely as it will balance well with the natural warmness of the LSi. Obviously, there are others as well, just remember not to overlook cabling. Make sure to replace the stock bi-wire bars. A short length of 12 gauge provides a strong improvement IMHO.

[Tour2ma]

Just tried bi-wiring the speakers and turning off the equalizer -- no change. The mids and highs sounded strained at the -15 volume level. It was worth a try, thanks.You know it's possible you are over-taxing your ears at that level.

Do you have an SPL meter?

How do they sound at -20?

[Stew]

At higher volumes (-15 or so) the mids and highs start sounding somewhat distorted with a definite lack of soundstage.

It might also be worth looking at your CD player. I recently upgraded an old Yamaha CDP with new opamps (IC chips that serve as miniature amplifiers for those unfamiliar) and was amazed at how much I could change the sound of my SDA 2b's with different opamps. Different chips made dramatic differences in smoothness, bass response, soundstage, etc. It was my experience that any grainy sound in the mids and highs became much more intolerable at higher volumes. No idea what CDP your using but a good CDP or modifications to your existing one can dramatically change the sound of your system.

Stew