View Full Version : sub or no sub.....
05-21-2002, 04:32 PM
What's you guys opinions on subs in the 2ch rig??
I am as a general rule, not really in favor of it. However, if I could score a DQ-1W and crossover for the DQ's I probably would.
A powered sub? I wouldn't say never, but HIGHLY unlikely. I dunno, it just doesn't seem to fit to me.....and my heart is in my 2ch rig because I got music in my sole.
05-21-2002, 04:40 PM
NO powered towers
NO powered subs
MAYBE a matched passive with a custom network, passed right at the main speakers 3db down point.....
Why? those little plate amps (high cheese factor) on powered towers and most powered subs probably won't hold a candle to your 'main' amplification.
That's how I hear it anyway
Troy, you may have sole (filet of?), but man I have big BASE. You know, boom boom boom?
05-21-2002, 04:41 PM
Going to make my move for the LSi15's, and eschew the sub as a result; I think they will be able to hold their own. Although, if I happend to get the cash together for a Velodyne HGS series sub, well, enough said.
Doesn't it depend on what you're running for mains, whether or not the sub is what you want/need?
With some tweaking, you can get a powered sub to blend in well with your speakers.
05-21-2002, 04:49 PM
let me rephrase.....there will NEVER be a powered sub in my 2ch rig. There will also NEVER be a powered tower in my house.....
I could see the sub if you wanted to augment a pair of bookshelves but I would opt for a passive.....In my case, the only way I would do it is with the Dahlquist passive that was designed for the dq-10. I would say that the DQ-10 is solid to about 40hz which I'm pretty happy with though.....
I'm confident of my amps ability to power anything you could get in through the door:D
Russ, you got LOTS of BASE, weebles wobble but they don't fall down....
05-21-2002, 04:53 PM
Orange, obviously it's to each his own and I certainly don't think that sub augmentation is a bad thing....I just, for my own tastes, prefer to not have a powered sub...
05-21-2002, 05:05 PM
The problem is, to get a truly full-range passive speaker (that's any good) you're going to spend upwards of $10,000. With this in mind, a good powered subwoofer starts to make sense.
05-21-2002, 05:10 PM
Most music wouldn't be a problem. My 10B mains go pretty low, but when I listen to Bach or some techno I prefer the sub added.
I have NEVER considered powered towers. Some day I might but there needs to be improvements.
Why the hesitation to a powered sub? I can understand the integration issue (sensitivity, crossover fq., etc) and if you can get DQ-1W this would be an obvious answer. But I think there are some splendid powered subs out there. Then again there's something about putting the DQ-10s on some old JBL (dual 15s) bass-bins that has me :Ding.
05-21-2002, 05:10 PM
Man, you say some funny **** sometimes Aaron. Have you heard DQ10's? Have you heard Carver Amazings? Have you heard older Thiels?
How about SDA's? How about the big Infinities from the late 70's, early 80's? How about some AR303's?
05-21-2002, 05:13 PM
Hmm, let's see, do they make any of those speakers any more???
05-21-2002, 05:26 PM
Hmmm, how is that relative?
Ok, want new? How about B&W 603 s3, how about JmLab Chorus 725? How about Tannoy Revolution R3's? How about PSB Stratus Gold? How about Polk LSi15's? How about Canton Nestor 803's?
Thanks for playing, I forgot, if its not shiney and new, with a 10K tag and name you can't pronounce, it really isn't worth it, is it? ;)
05-21-2002, 05:39 PM
I agree Mark, I think you are absolutely right, there are great subs out there......
This is just a matter of personal taste and my desire for a more traditional 2ch rig, I suppose.
As far as the 10K passive speaker thing.......ahhhhh, nope. One that is dead flat to 20hz, maybe. A pleasing full range speaker that holds it's own in to the mid 30's can be had, new, for way less.
05-21-2002, 05:42 PM
full range = 20Hz. @ -3dB
Care to try again?
05-21-2002, 05:44 PM
Many above get down in the 20's, if not a solid 20 itself....
And as far as 20Hz goes....what affordable powered sub does that anyway? I can't think of many, there is a handfull that will though.......
Why -3db, why not -6db, or 0? Is this from your 'pocket audio dictionary'?
Aaron, you know I'm hackin on ya....(to an extent). You ditch the sony yet, or are you still all barrio'd up?
05-21-2002, 05:54 PM
My point is, you can take a $2-3k speaker, add a sub for under $2k and be at half the price (or less) than a passive full-range speaker, not to mention the fortune you'd have to spend on amplification for the passive speaker. And I highly doubt any of those speakers can hit 20Hz. at -3dB.
05-21-2002, 05:56 PM
For music, it's overkill anyway. Give me a speaker (DQ-10) that has a flawless midrange and acceptable bass, mid 30's and the presence of a big speaker and you gots a deal.
A flat 20hz response means ZERO to me. Underline me. In a sub or a speaker......quality, not quantity. As gidrah noted, if it's musical, it will make noise.
And if anyone says anything about Revel (ahem, Aaron) I'll throttle ya. Go listen to a pair of DQ-10's and then we will talk.
05-21-2002, 05:58 PM
Sure, the money issue is relative. And the PSB and Canton will get 'down there', especially once they are in a room...(most specs are Anechoic chamber)
Even on the Tannoy (rated to 39 I -think-) were suprisingly full and low, and easily stood on their own musically....
05-21-2002, 07:13 PM
For me I like a sub for a more "real" sound with a very low crossover point. Just enough to add that little bit of realism. Actually I have been much happier with the Clark Synthesis transducers mounted to the main frame of the house. They add a little "bump" to the presentation without adding any color to the sound. For the past 6 months I have listened without a sub but I think it sounds a little more "real" with a little something to back up the mains. After all, isn't "real" what we are after here?
05-21-2002, 07:13 PM
I hear a lot about the DQ-10's and I was wondering what a pair goes for.
05-21-2002, 07:19 PM
You can bag em for $350-$500 a pair in good shape.
05-21-2002, 07:26 PM
Just my RT55s, no sub.
05-21-2002, 07:45 PM
the only bad thing of having tower with no powerd sub is that the latest cds have a lot of low frequency recorded in them below 20hz so, lot of the tower speakers rolloff in the high 30hz and you lose a lot of musical information or the towers distort and muddy the music. towers are all right with the older cds only, that what i think. it depends on the software.
05-21-2002, 08:44 PM
SDA SRS 2.3TL
I don't need no stinkin' sub!
05-21-2002, 09:40 PM
......and Bingo was his name-o.
05-22-2002, 07:14 AM
Actually, you guys shouldn't be using tweeters. When you crossover from the midwoofer to the tweeter it happens somewhere between 1Khz to 3.5Khz which is right in the voice ranges and causes a lot of problems. It would be better to use a midwoofer driver with a fuller range which would reach up to 13khz to 15khz and not use a tweeter at all. This idea is not really much different than using a subwoofer or not.
05-22-2002, 09:20 AM
I see the point you are making mm, I don't think the tweeter analogy is dead on, but I get what you are saying.
Would you not rather have a passive sub, driven by the same (or identical) amp as the mains over a powered sub? My logic may be way off base, but it seems to make sense to me.
05-22-2002, 10:31 AM
I was commenting on sub vs no sub. Whether it is self powered or active I don't care so long as the amp driving it matches well. In my present active system I pick the amp that blends the best but if you use a self powered sub you are limited if it is not a good match. As for passive subs I would not use one at this point because I don't want to impose any addition duties on the amp driving the left and right channels. I may be confused at the different types. I think we are talking about the same thing.
Are the below classifications correct?
Passive-Driven by the same amp that is driving the channel
Self powered-Has amp built in to sub
Active-Has external dedicated amp
05-22-2002, 11:08 AM
Roger that. We are on the same page....
05-22-2002, 07:43 PM
but a couple of things, the built in amp is designed for the sub driver and matched on the better subs they are a class d amp witch is the best for bass,and with a powered sub you take off the strain from the main amp and it will run the mids and highs a lot better. the only problem is finding the right sub, and set up problems .
05-23-2002, 11:13 PM
Many audiophiles want subs to their sysem so they can here ALL their music.
I depends on the speakers and the sub. My klipsch needs a really loud sub to keep up, or else it will sound like crap. Of course, a cerwin-vega! is loud but sounds like crap. And I can't afford a good Muisc sub. So I'll go without. I feel it would be easier to get a sub for Polks because they are not as loud, and are "smooth."
I heard some a little while ago, and are very nice. (Rti800's) Wouldn't trade them for my rocking Klipsch, but they are good. I have found polk subs to be more "musical" then the subs sold in places like future shop.
What about something like a Paradigm Servo15? Sopposed to have VERY clean deep bass. Not just BOOM.
How many can afford Dynaudio Evidence towers? Subs help.
05-23-2002, 11:27 PM
matthew....go find a Paradigm dealer and go check out the servo-15. Very cool stuff.
05-24-2002, 01:30 AM
I bought new and owned the DQ-10s for 20 years. (See my reply on the speaker thread to Mantis and his 3 speaker shoot out.)
I really liked the DQ-10s. They are an excellent speaker. In 1976 when I bought those, there was no such thing as subs. The reviews that I read at the time seemed to find as the only weakness a lack of bass. My room placement dictated that they were in corners, (angled in), so that helped the bass. I heard other quality systems during those years and some had a little better low end but the DQs did alright by me. They did lack a little by todays standards though.
I feel that if I still had these speakers today I would be using a sub. I have a NHT 10inch ported sub with its own amp. For music I set the sub volume to what I will call, for lack of a more correct term "noticible." You really do not know it is there until you turn it off. Then you wonder where the vibes went. Of course this adjustment needs to change from cd to cd as some just have a lot more bass than others. IMO that is the best way to keep a sub from interfering. Most concerts I have ever been to did not totally dominate with sub sound.
My truck has two Polk subs with 50 watts to each sub. I can make them rattle your lungs if I want to, I just don't like that. I listened to a friends teenage sons new truck system a few days ago. 600 watts into two subs. This thing actually would vibrate your hair!! Felt good on my ass and back but I prefer my system. I feel that a lot of people are turned against subs because they are exposed to subs that are not set up right and are played with way to much emphasis on the deep bass sound.
Enjoy the DQs, but my advice is, do not totaly rule out the Sub. Try one with them you might just find that they are even more fun. Of course that is just my opinion.
05-24-2002, 06:53 AM
I'm not ruling out a sub, in fact, if I can get my hands on the DQ-1W and crossover, I'll probably do it. I'd really only consider a passive to be honest for the 2 ch rig. Easier to match amps.
I've read about the DQ-10 being bass shy and don't buy it for a couple of reasons. First the specs I've seen show it going into the upper 30's (-3db) which isn't bad for a sealed 10" driver. Back in the day that the DQ-10 was released a 10" woofer in a speaker was pretty small by comparison. The other thing I would suggest is that these things suck up a LOT of juice and I think a lot of folks who said there was no bass didn't feed it enough power.
05-31-2002, 02:06 AM
i have to say i usto hook up this old fender 15 boy did it make rock music rock yeah got to love that rock
06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
I missed this one,
Attacking Poor Aaron like that......shame on you guys.Why not pick on someone your own size...like the big bad ass Mantis!!!!!!
OK enought with that,
Sub or no sub in a 2 channel rig...........thats a good question.Id say it depends on your speakers and there ability to go low,real low.Not in the 40's or 30, i MEAN IN THE 20'S.
Now there is one sub on the market i find Audiophiles all agree on........Enter ReL.They blend in like the sound is all coming from the mains all buy themselves.They add low extention that most speakers need.
Now you can be happy with how your speakers perform and the power of your amp driving them to the desired levels.Add a Rel and learn a whole new meaning to your music.
Thats how I feel.
On the 10K note....I do agree with Aaron on sonic purity as I will put it.High end speaker's out perform all the budget speakers made period.Take Dynaudio Confidence C4's priced at 16 grand.They are one of the realist sounding speaker's I ever heard.Untill you experience them.............better yeat go hear them and then post back your new feeling's........No sub needed here.I wouldn't add a Rel as the job is forfilled.
But in the really real world as stated above in last posts,you can find good quality speakers under 10k that can perform.The level is up to the individual.The cash follows even closer.
06-24-2002, 11:13 AM
Audiophiles RARELY agree on anything and I doubt that true audiophile purists would give much creedance to any powered sub. Of course anyone that would spend 10G's or better on a turntable I think is off thier rocker anyway.
06-24-2002, 10:23 PM
Don't knock the $10k turntables. You can get a laser turntable for around that. How cool is that? Then of course there's the infamous Rockport Sirius (or whatever it's called) for $75k.....
06-25-2002, 09:47 AM
I vote for a passive sub ,sealed enclosure, crossed over at somewhere around 35 to 40 Hz.
07-08-2002, 10:12 AM
Anybody ever try the Vandersteen sub?
07-08-2002, 10:18 AM
Are we talking the Vandy with the 3, 8 inchers? Is it Sealed? I'd like to, have heard good things about it.
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