DVD Backup

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

I'm about to undergo the task of backing up my entire DVD collection. I've not been able to find a clear definition of the law as it pertains to DVD copying.

Ibviously copying a DVD that you don't own is illegal, that's a given.

What does the law have to say about me making backup copies of movies that i already own - is this illegal?

I'm researching programs that I can use, but need to find out if this is even legal before I buy 500 blank DVDs and start this...

[michael_w]

Yes it is legal as long as you own and posess both the original and the copy.

As for copying them I and many others use DVD Shrink and DVD Decrytper. They're both free and do a great job. You could probably spend a decent amount of money on a program to do it in less steps and make things less complicated but this way you get to customize things more and not paying for any software is cool.

Lemme know if you want some help using the programs or where to find them.

edit: I just chucked in a text version of an email I quickly wrote to someone in the same situation. It doesn't go into much detail but it should help you get started with the two programs.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Thanks for the info.

I'm already familiar with DVD Shrink as I've used it for other project before. I'll end up using that for quite a few of the backups I do, but for those that need a lot of compression, I'm going to go with a combination of DVD Rebuilder with CCE to get a true encoding package.

[opus]

I just started doing this lately and while shrink is great, on a majority of the newer movies you will need to use a different program to decrypt first. I have been using the free download of Fabdecrypter to break the movie and then use shrink to format. May not be the best way but it works for the computer challenged.

FYI. check out Cdcovers.cc for free downloads of dvd case covers. Just about anything you want. Way cool.:) kevin

[Holydoc]

Yes it is legal as long as you own and posess both the original and the copy.

As for copying them I and many others use DVD Shrink and DVD Decrytper. They're both free and do a great job. You could probably spend a decent amount of money on a program to do it in less steps and make things less complicated but this way you get to customize things more and not paying for any software is cool.



Michael,

Are you a copyright infringement litigation lawyer? Are you giving your opinion or the fact? For instance I see no harm in backing up your library of DVD's. However my opinion will not be worth a crap if you are sitting in prison or paying heavy fines.

According to everything I have read, this is a very grey area. CNET posted this concerning copying DVD's:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-5128652.html

You be your own judge. There is very little chance that even if it was declared unlawful, that anyone would spend the money to convict you if you were not distributing your copies. However very little chance does not mean NO chance.

[bobman1235]

There is very little chance that even if it was declared unlawful, that anyone would spend the money to convict you if you were not distributing your copies. However very little chance does not mean NO chance.

Stranger things have happened. Whether it is legal or illegal right now (and the jury's still out on that) it WILL be illegal in the near future. I'd bet almost anything on it. The MPAA will have their way, and they do not want you to be able to rip or copy any DVD, whether for personal backup use or not. Fair use is a joke, and will be gone within five years, most likely sooner. The idea of owning any piece of music or movie is a thing of the past. You own one copy of it, and should that copy be destroyed, you own nothing.

[michael_w]

What I said wasn't an opinion. From everything I've read it's totally legal to own a burned copy of one of your own movies. Aparently the gray area is just about the legality of the process. Breaking the anti-copy protection built into some media is aparently illegal (according to the article?). It's kind of like trying to decriminalize weed, where it would then be legal to posess it but not grow it.

[danger boy]

what would be cool is if you backed up those DVD's onto a hard drive.. then just ran a movie off the HD whenever you wanted to watch it in the home theater. I guess it would be a media server right? How cool would that be? :D

[heiney9]

Remember most if not all commercial DVD's are on dual layer media. Most of the mass market DVD-R's on the market are single layer and only hold 1/2 the amount of data. The dual layer recordable media is coming down in price however. So when you use DVD shrink (which I recommend) you either have to reduce (compress) the information to fit all available information on a DVD-R or reauthor the DVD essentially editing out the parts you don't want.

If you are buying dual layer recordable media then you don't need to worry about compression or reauthoring the original DVD.

H9

[PolkThug]

It is NOT legal to make copies of DVD's, even if you own them.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

So if it's not legal to make copies, I wonder how they can get away with selling all this software?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

To all, I've very familiar with the available programs I can use to get the job done. Based on my research, I'll either be using DVD Shrink or a combo of DVDFab Decrypter and DVD Shrink for most of my copies, and a combination of DVDFab Decrypter, DVD Shrink, and DVD Rebuilder with CCE for movies that are gong to require more than 10 or 15% compression - depending on the actual bitrate.

[StopherJJ1980]

I'm about to undergo the task of backing up my entire DVD collection. I've not been able to find a clear definition of the law as it pertains to DVD copying.

Ibviously copying a DVD that you don't own is illegal, that's a given.

What does the law have to say about me making backup copies of movies that i already own - is this illegal?

I'm researching programs that I can use, but need to find out if this is even legal before I buy 500 blank DVDs and start this...

No ones gonna come busting down your door and ask to see all the DVD's you own. Dont worry about it, copy what you want. Downloading movies is another story, can get caught there if someone is watching.

[TheReaper]

So if it's not legal to make copies, I wonder how they can get away with selling all this software?
Slysoft and dvd region+css free come from Ireland an China (not illegal there). For dvd region+css free, I downloaded from god knows where, and then bought the key to unlock it, in the US.

what would be cool is if you backed up those DVD's onto a hard drive.. then just ran a movie off the HD whenever you wanted to watch it in the home theater.
It is cool, but takes a lot of disk space at 4 - 8 gb per movie (at original resolution). I have several dvds on my hard drive, but it would take a couple of terabytes to hold my whole collection (I currently only have 750gb).

[bobman1235]

So if it's not legal to make copies, I wonder how they can get away with selling all this software?

Under the pretense that it's only for non-copy protected DVDs.

It's like saying you can't sell file sharing software because sharing copyrighted material is illegal. All they have to say is that it's not for copyrighted material, and it's fine.

[Willow]

FWIW, I use dvdcopy, easy as 123

[heiney9]

It is NOT legal to make copies of DVD's, even if you own them.

Not true. If it's for your own use and you own the original it's not a problem, or illegal. If that were the case then when we rip music files to store on our portable players that would be illegal also. Also one can make back-up copies of software, which is in no way illegal. Once you purchase something you can manage the info any way you want as long as you don't sell copies, charge to watch/listen to it, or make copies available to others. That is the intent of the copyright law.

H9

[polrbehr]

You may also want to try DVD XCopy Express by 3-2-1 Studios, a simple program that does what it's supposed to. If you have a DVD player and a DVD burner in your computer, you can put the original in the player, put a blank in the burner, and set it in motion. The copy will pop out when it's done. One caveat: you won't be able to copy the interactive menus found at the beginning of most DVDs.
BTW, it will work on a burner-only setup as well; you just have to insert a blank when prompted.

[Willow]

You may also want to try DVD XCopy Express by 3-2-1 Studios, a simple program that does what it's supposed to. If you have a DVD player and a DVD burner in your computer, you can put the original in the player, put a blank in the burner, and set it in motion. The copy will pop out when it's done. One caveat: you won't be able to copy the interactive menus found at the beginning of most DVDs.
BTW, it will work on a burner-only setup as well; you just have to insert a blank when prompted.


Dvd copy makes exact copies of what you have, menus and all

[polrbehr]

Cool - who makes it and where do you get it???

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Under the pretense that it's only for non-copy protected DVDs.

It's like saying you can't sell file sharing software because sharing copyrighted material is illegal. All they have to say is that it's not for copyrighted material, and it's fine.Understood, but I'm talking specifically about the packages like DVDFab and ANYDVD whose sole purpose is to beat copyright protection...

[Demiurge]

I wouldn't worry to much about the legality of copying DVDs you own. You're not doing anything unethical when copying DVDs you own. That law would have a hard time holding up in court....which it will most likely never come to.

[jeremie]

who really cares to be honest, go to blockbuster or McD's and rent some movies and burn them.

[bobman1235]

who really cares to be honest, go to blockbuster or McD's and rent some movies and burn them.

Wow, how silly we all were to discuss the legality of reasonable things when the braintrust out there has such insight for us. Any more gems you want ot impart on us?

[Willow]

FWIW, I use dvdcopy, easy as 123

I checked last night and it's AnyDVD, sorry about that.

[PolkThug]

Not true. If it's for your own use and you own the original it's not a problem, or illegal. If that were the case then when we rip music files to store on our portable players that would be illegal also. Also one can make back-up copies of software, which is in no way illegal. Once you purchase something you can manage the info any way you want as long as you don't sell copies, charge to watch/listen to it, or make copies available to others. That is the intent of the copyright law.
H9

You're right about the music and software backup, there are specific provisions about that. You're wrong about making copies of movies. To this day it is still copyright infringement to make a copy of a copyrighted movie.

If you still think you are right, please quote the law that states you can make a copy of a copyrighted movie without any permission.

[bpadget]

I'm still trying to figure out if it makes sense to spend time and energy backing up a dvd collection. How many original dvds actually fail?

[heiney9]

You're right about the music and software backup, there are specific provisions about that. You're wrong about making copies of movies. To this day it is still copyright infringement to make a copy of a copyrighted movie.

If you still think you are right, please quote the law that states you can make a copy of a copyrighted movie without any permission.

I'm not trying to argue. If it's for your own personal use and you are the purchaser you can do what you want. How is a movie any different than music or literature? Where is the specific law that says you can't make a copy of a movie for your own personal use? Also, where are the specific provisions written for music? This question has already been dealt with during the advent of the VCR. Technically then you can't tape your favorite TV program to watch at a later date then, because of copywrite law and if you can; why doesn't the same apply to a movie you actually purchased? Software is a bit different as they were thinking ahead on that issue of catastrophic failure and having a back-up.

I guess what I'm getting at is how can it make sense for music, software and literature, but not for movies? Copywritten material is copywritten not matter what the content or intended use (reading, listening, watching) is. The spirit of the copywrite laws is to stop one person (not the owner of the material) from either profiting or making the material available to others without compensating the originator of said material.

How do rental places get around this then? They are making a profit by renting the same movies (they paid for once) over and over and over. No extra compensation is going to the originator of the material. How come we can rent materials (written, audio and video) from the library? They make said information available to the masses without any compensation to the originator of the material other than the original purchase.

H9

[heiney9]

It all comes down to your interpretation of the Fair Use provision found in copyright law. You can twist it anyway you want, but all recent provisions were added (Digital Millennium Act, Family Entertainment & Copyright act among others) to stop pirating of copywritten material.

My personal interpretation of the Fair Use provision is that you can resonably make a copy which you purchased as a back-up or for other personal use so long as you don't sell the copy, charge to view copy or make copies for others to use. If that's wrong, show me?

H9

P.s. In my earlier post I was being facetious about libraries to make a point. They have special provisions under copyright law to have and disseminate copywritten material.

[bobman1235]

I'm not trying to argue. If it's for your own personal use and you are the purchaser you can do what you want. How is a movie any different than music or literature? Where is the specific law that says you can't make a copy of a movie for your own personal use? Also, where are the specific provisions written for music? This question has already been dealt with during the advent of the VCR. Technically then you can't tape your favorite TV program to watch at a later date then, because of copywrite law and if you can; why doesn't the same apply to a movie you actually purchased? Software is a bit different as they were thinking ahead on that issue of catastrophic failure and having a back-up.

I guess what I'm getting at is how can it make sense for music, software and literature, but not for movies? Copywritten material is copywritten not matter what the content or intended use (reading, listening, watching) is. The spirit of the copywrite laws is to stop one person (not the owner of the material) from either profiting or making the material available to others without compensating the originator of said material.

How do rental places get around this then? They are making a profit by renting the same movies (they paid for once) over and over and over. No extra compensation is going to the originator of the material. How come we can rent materials (written, audio and video) from the library? They make said information available to the masses without any compensation to the originator of the material other than the original purchase.

H9

A few quick points :
1. Rental places DO pay more for videos (somehting like 100 bucks) that they rent out. Also, they are licensed to do so. i think it's obvious that you, a private citezen with no such license, could not rent out your movie collection for a profit.
2. It doesn't make sense. No one's arguing that it makes SENSE that you can't copy your own DVDs but you CAN copy your own music. We're just arguing that it's TRUE. Laws don't have to be logical, believe me. :rolleyes:
3. It's copyRIGHT, not copyWRITE. As in your RIGHTS. (just nitpicking on that one).

EDIT I missed your next post and the PS, so ignore point one about the video rental places.

[PolkThug]

Your interpretation and the law are two separate things. We can interpret anything, however we want. There are no laws, Acts or judicial declarations that make it OK to copy a copyrighted DVD without permission. So, to reiterate, it is illegal to make copies of copyrighted material, UNLESS there are legal provisions.

As mentioned above, there are documented provisions for other kinds of material.

For example, for TV broadcasts -
1984 Sony Corp v Universal Studios, Inc
-cliff notes: declares broadcast can be recorded and watched at a later time, then the recording should be erased as to not build a library of copyrighted material.

[heiney9]

A few quick points : 3. It's copyRIGHT, not copyWRITE. As in your RIGHTS. (just nitpicking on that )

Yes, I realized that after I posted and was too lazy to go back and edit. I'm a horrible typist, type way too fast and am just lazy when it comes to proof reading for the forum :o .

I'd still be interested in seeing the specific provision in US Copyright law that states you cannot make copies of movies for personal use. Not because I don't believe it, but I haven't run across anything while searching. I understand the law not making sense thing, but if I purchase something I'm going to do whatever I damn well please as long as it's for personal use and I'm not selling it or making other pays to view it. To me that's reasonable use.

Why is everyone debating the digital copyright scheme/programs that have been invented to prevent copying? Because it infringes on the very principle of the Fair Use provision. If it's strictly illegal to make copies then why would so many people/organizations be upset and fighting digital copying schemes being instituted ( besides the programs that degrade the audio/video signal)?

H9

[Demiurge]

Your interpretation and the law are two separate things. We can interpret anything, however we want. There are no laws, Acts or judicial declarations that make it OK to copy a copyrighted DVD without permission. So, to reiterate, it is illegal to make copies of copyrighted material, UNLESS there are legal provisions.

As mentioned above, there are documented provisions for other kinds of material.

For example, for TV broadcasts -
1984 Sony Corp v Universal Studios, Inc
-cliff notes: declares broadcast can be recorded and watched at a later time, then the recording should be erased as to not build a library of copyrighted material.

So what? You're not going to get arrested for having copies of things you own. That's not the intent of the law, which is why it isn't enforced, but apparently that point is flying over your head.

If you got arrested for having copies of DVDs you own I guarantee that you're getting aquitted.

[heiney9]

Your interpretation and the law are two separate things. We can interpret anything, however we want. There are no laws, Acts or judicial declarations that make it OK to copy a copyrighted DVD without permission. So, to reiterate, it is illegal to make copies of copyrighted material, UNLESS there are legal provisions.

As mentioned above, there are documented provisions for other kinds of material.

For example, for TV broadcasts -
1984 Sony Corp v Universal Studios, Inc
-cliff notes: declares broadcast can be recorded and watched at a later time, then the recording should be erased as to not build a library of copyrighted material.

There are no laws that say we can't. It's not that black and white. You can't say because no one says we can make copies it's illegal. It falls under the provision of Fair Use which is purposely written to be vague so as to never specifically say yes you can make copies or no you can't make copies. All the specific laws have to do with pirating, altering, or making a profit from copywritten material w/o permission. There is no distinction between, written, audio or video.

It's a grey area that isn't specific one way or another until someone takes you to court, then all bets are off and I guarantee if it's reasonable fair use you'll never have a problem.

H9

[PolkThug]

I'd still be interested in seeing the specific provision in US Copyright law that states you cannot make copies of movies for personal use.

Google "Copyright Law" or "Copyright Act".

The latest DVD movie you bought is copyrighted material (ever see the copyright notice at the beginning?). Making a copy of that copyrighted material is copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is punishable.

[PolkThug]

So what? You're not going to get arrested for having copies of things you own. That's not the intent of the law, which is why it isn't enforced, but apparently that point is flying over your head.


No point is flying over my head. I'm writing specifically about the legal/illegal aspect of making a copy of copyrighted material.

I agree with you that no copyright police are going to kick down my door, maybe you don't get the point I'm making.

[heiney9]

P Thuggy, your taking this idea and making it very black and white. It's not that simple, it never has been and it never will be. There is a provision in the US Copyright law called Fair Use. The specific intent of Fair Use is to allow person or persons to copy/use copywritten material w/o consent from the orginal party. What it does not do and never will do is draw a distinct and specific line which outlines when the Fair Use provision has been violated unless it grossly goes against the intent (ie; pirating, profiting, altering).

This is the site I've been on all morning and I have yet to see anything that specifically forbides anyone to make a copy for fair use.

http://www.copyright.gov/

Anyways I'm done with this. You choose to interpret it literally as a black & white issue and you clearly want it to state yes you can or no you can't. It's not that simple. Copyright issues have never been that simple and are only becoming more complicated with the digital age.

I subscribe to the reasonable Fair Use POV because I know it's never been or ever will be a simple yes or no answer.

Very interesting discussion though

H9

[Demiurge]

No point is flying over my head. I'm writing specifically about the legal/illegal aspect of making a copy of copyrighted material.

I agree with you that no copyright police are going to kick down my door, maybe you don't get the point I'm making.

No I get it, but I am not sure why you're wasting your time arguing with people who are going to do it anyways. In the same breath I don't know why anyone is arguing that it is legal, because technically it isn't.

We all break laws everyday. Choose if the penalties are worth taking the risk.

[PolkThug]

No I get it, but I am not sure why you're wasting your time arguing with people who are going to do it anyways.

I prefer to call it a discussion. :) Whether they do it or not is beside the point. Many people on this forum have good HT demo material because of me. :D


In the same breath I don't know why anyone is arguing that it is legal, because technically it isn't.

We all break laws everyday. Choose if the penalties are worth taking the risk.

Agree 100%, I love to ride my bicycle on the sidewalk while drawing pictures of prophets! ;)

[Demiurge]

I prefer to call it a discussion. :) Whether they do it or not is beside the point. Many people on this forum have good HT demo material because of me. :D



Agree 100%, I love to ride my bicycle on the sidewalk while drawing pictures of prophets! ;)

I guess I became jaded about trying to have meaningful discussions around here. Most aren't up for it. ;)

:D

[polrbehr]

I'm still trying to figure out if it makes sense to spend time and energy backing up a dvd collection. How many original dvds actually fail?

Not to answer a ? with a ? , but how many kids are in your house??

[petrym]

I wonder if you could make a bitwise copy of the DVD as save as an image file. That copy would include all areas of disk, including any copy protection code, that is marked as unused to the OS/disk-player but is accessed via hardware addressing from the disk itself.

[petrym]

<--- (puts on his aluminim foil hat to block the thought waves from the gov't and MPAA)

[TheReaper]

I wonder if you could make a bitwise copy of the DVD as save as an image file. That copy would include all areas of disk, including any copy protection code, that is marked as unused to the OS/disk-player but is accessed via hardware addressing from the disk itself.
css is already ahead of you:

6.2.1.5 Recordable Media Playback Control. DVD Players shall
refuse to play back recordable (whether write-once or rewritable) DVD
Discs containing digital source code indicating that the content was never to
be copied. DVD Players shall also refuse to perform CSS descrambling
functions with respect to any content contained on a recordable (whether
write-once or rewritable) DVD Disc. Licensee understands that the Content
Marking System described in Section 6.2.13 is expected to be used for
recordable media playback control, and that adoption of such Content
Marking System is expected to include modifications to the requirements of
this provision to accomplish such use.