Bi-amping RT1000i's

[vicentre]

Can i bi-amp the high and mid-range portion of my RT1000i's? I have a Parasound 5 channel @ 85 watts per channel. I want to run 4 channels to the RTs and the fifth to my CS245i and let the H/K AVR320 run the surrounds. Sound like a plan?

vince

[RuSsMaN]

Well, I'm just talking out of my ass, but you cannot 'bi' anything to the 1000's. No bi-wire, no bi-amp. Search on the topic rt1000, more reading and entertainment than you could possibly want...

Ok everyone got their helmets on? Let the Polk special olympics begin!!!

Cheers,
Russ

[vicentre]

I have read all the posts on the whole bi-wiring thing and i think you could bi-wire the 1000's, separating the high/mid-range terminals from the low and using the speaker passively,which defeats the speaker's purpose of being a powered tower. I, on the other hand, do alot of stereo music listening and would like to push them a little harder on the high and mid side and let the my stand alone sub and the tower's subs do their thing.

[mantis]

Russman, you do it well.
No you can't bi amp the rt1000 series or any other powered tower.Unless you bypass the internal amp which would be modifing the speaker.On the tech side basically the rt1000's are already bi amped.....so Russman is wrong from a certian point of view(don't worry about us we just like to bicker at each other).If you want to be tricky, bridge the 2 amps together.
To answer your question right , you can't bi amp the rt1000 series speaker.BUt YES YOU CAN BI WIRE THE RT1000 SPEAKERS.

[mantis]

Russman,
I need hard tech data to proof your theory on you can't bi wire the rt1000 series.Warm up those butt cheeks any flap away.;)

[vicentre]

Ok, so let me get this straight. I cannot split the pre-outs of my left and right channels of my receiver to 4 channels of my amp and run two channels to each speaker's top binding post, which are not connected to the lower binding post because i am using the rca input/outputs. I can not do this becauuusse it will blow my speakers up? sound like crap? what? I'm no great techie audiofile here, i just want to listen to my music and watch movies and have it sound really good.

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by mantis
.BUt YES YOU CAN BI WIRE THE RT1000 SPEAKERS.

Uhh, nope, wrong answer. Thanks for playing.

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

Lesse, call Polk customer service and ask them if you can bi wire the RT1000's. Also, I don't see it as an option in the manual (it is in the non-powered manuals). So, in the strict sense, that would be evidence enough for me.......

Having said that, if it works for you, more power to ya.

BDT

[Aaron]

But Mantis tested it, so you guys must be wrong. :)

Aaron

[nascarmann]

Not sure, but I think I see smoke from the Asstalker tribe?

KING WANNABE

[mantis]

So wheres the hard data??Hmmm don't see any.
Speak boys and girls,show me what you got!

[TroyD]

"I just spoke with Polk technical service and the rep said that RT2000i's are not biwireable".......posted some time ago. How is that?

Plus, what is to be gained by adding power to a powered driver??

BDT

[Kenneth Swauger]

Hello,
Here is an easy method to determine if any speaker is going to benefit from either bi-wiring or bi-amplifying. Remove any of the binding post jumper plates from underneath the binding post caps. Connect speaker wire to the upper set of binding posts and begin playing any musical program source at a very moderate volume. If your speaker is capable of being bi-wired or bi-amplified only the tweeter will be producing sound, you will only hear treble information. If you also hear the mid range/bass driver producing sound then the speaker system won't benefit from bi-wiring or bi-amplifying. This way you can determine, for yourself, how the operation of the binding posts corresponds to the intended function.
Regards, Ken Swauger

[vicentre]

Great, just trying to get a specific answer to a specific question and i gotta scroll through the battle of the know it alls.

[vicentre]

Thanks Ken.

[RuSsMaN]

Nanner-Nanner-Nanner

-R

[TroyD]

Sounds like hard data to me.......

OK, assuming that Ken's test is valid, how could one say then that a speaker could be bi-wired but not bi-amped?

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

Another good point Troy.

Any speaker that can be bi-wired, can also be bi-amped, and vice versa. Of course, if an individual has their helmet strapped on too tight, they may have trouble grasping this basic concept.

Cheers,
Ed Zachry

And vice, relax, you will most always get the answers you seek, try to enjoy the extra as free entertainment, if nothing else...

[TroyD]

what's your take on Ken's test?

BDT

[TroyD]

Seriously, we seem to have two schools of thought here. To be honest, Ken's test seems to make most sense to me but I'd like to hear what the other camp's take is.

Troy

[mantis]

No problem TroyD,
I posted it somewhere else but I will give to you why I Bi wired a powered tower.
I owned the rt1000p's since they came out,I really wanted the rt16's but they were gone at that time.I sat and listened to all the new models and i liked the rt1000p over the rt800's which were closer to what I wanted in the rt16's a passive tower not a powered tower.I found them to sound tighter in the midrange and with the built in amp, I felt i could tune them to my listening room.Back then I owned the Yamaha rxv992.I first wired them with just 12 gauge monster 12-2,left the jumpers in and away I went.After reading about them and was wondering if Line level would work better I decided to remove the jumpers and run the top in 12-2 and run line level to the sub.The output of the yamaha was strong,I had to turn the sub level down a bit to blend the speaker back where I had it.They worked like that but I didn't really hear a big difference in sound quality like I had hoped for.The sub didn't respond the same way it did with speaker level, but i left it that way untill I upgraded to the Pioneer Elite vsx26tx.This receiver didn't sound good wired that way,I thought about putting in the jumper's and using the 12-2 by itself.I worked for Tweeter and Monster was a good deal for employees and I have been Bi wiring passive speakers, making bi iwres for clients that didn't buy pre made and found that it benifited there systems greatly.So I picked up a pair of monster cable MCX bi wires and went home to try.WOW my sound stage opened up and they sounded completly different, for the better.The Older 12-2 never sounded like that, the sub was blending much better and the mid's and high's were crystal clear.My Image got so good I had to walk up to the center channel to hear if it was on when running 2 channel stereo.Amazing.After a while I started to eye up the Monstercable M1.4's, I just had to have them As I did a wire shootout in the store between my wires and the newer and better M 1.4s.I hooked them up and even not burned in they killed the MCX wires dead.I didn't think the Polks had it in them.The clearity went threw the roof.I couldn't believe how much just changing speaker wires out made on sound quality.I heard differences in different brand and sizes but nothing like this.After awhile i felt the tweaters where to strong and I started to want new speakers.I heard the rt1000i's and thought they sounded better.I called Polk and bought the new tweeters and crossovers.Even right out of the box the new crossover and tweater was sounding better,We went out for the day so I put the cd in random play and off we went.When we came home that day,I noticed a more laid back nutral sound, so nice I fell inlove with my Speakers again.
Next came the Denon avr3801 and the increase of dynamic power and warmer sound,I felt it mated the best out of the last 3 receivers I owned.The wire remained.
To cut this short,I tested everyway you can wire them.And did a vs b vs c and the bi wire always sounded better.I made it fair and removed the m 1.4s and used bulk monster 14-2 and 14-4 with the plates in and out, ran line level with the 14-2 and perferred the sound of this speaker even though it's powered, sounded better ran in speaker level than jumped or line level.

[RuSsMaN]

Ok, first, try to make some paragraphs in your post, just hard to read, period. Second, and I can't really tell based on the post above, you are saying you noticed a difference between a line level, and high level (speaker wire) connection? Am I reading this right?

Did you make a jumper? Did you test any other wire connections without the jumper? I'm just asking, sounds like this:

1. You left the jumper in place and connected the sub via LFE.
2. You them remove the jumper, and connected the sub (and mains) via a bi-wire cable.

Hate to break it to ya, but that still ain't bi-wiring. Did you test a wire jumper vs your bi-wire cable? I could be mis-interpreting your post....I could be wrong too... heck, I've been wrong once before, back in the summer of '88. ;)

Cheers,
Russ

Ps. Still no mention of Ken's basic test....if you did bi-wire, why can you not bi-amp the 1000's? The two options walk hand in hand my fellow audio freak......

Funny stuff brotha.....

[TroyD]

OK, still waiting for an answer.........

If Ken's test is valid. How can you say that a powered tower is really biwired, second how could you justify saying that you can biwire but not biamp??

If you like the way the sound wired the way they are, cool, but are the strictly defined as being biwired?

I'm not trying to be a smartass but there is a gap in thought here.


Troy

[mantis]

Maybe I'm not clear how I wired it.
1) First 12-2 to top bindingpost with Jumpers in(factory.)
2)Jumpers removed with 12-2 to top posts and line level in from pre out mains left to left and right to right,again no jumpers.
3)Bi wired meaning speaker level to the top binding posts, no jumpers and speaker level to the sub's binding posts wired from the receiver's binding posts.The Wire was a premade bi wire speaker cable...its called the Monster cable MCX-BI WIRE.tHATS MEANS IN SIDE THE PREMADE JACKET THERES 4 CONDUCTORS.2 FOR THE HIGH SIDE AND 2 FOR THE LOW SIDE.
4)Bi Wired again with a higher end premade Bi wire speaker cable.Its called the MONSTERCABLE M 1.4S BI WIRE.

[mantis]

Maybe I'm not clear how I wired it.
1) First 12-2 to top bindingpost with Jumpers in(factory.)
2)Jumpers removed with 12-2 to top posts and line level in from pre out mains left to left and right to right,again no jumpers.
3)Bi wired meaning speaker level to the top binding posts, no jumpers and speaker level to the sub's binding posts wired from the receiver's binding posts.The Wire was a premade bi wire speaker cable...its called the Monster cable MCX-BI WIRE.tHATS MEANS IN SIDE THE PREMADE JACKET THERES 4 CONDUCTORS.2 FOR THE HIGH SIDE AND 2 FOR THE LOW SIDE.
4)Bi Wired again with a higher end premade Bi wire speaker cable.Its called the MONSTERCABLE M 1.4S BI WIRE.NO JUMPERS.
I babble alot,I post like I talk not how I write,sorry for all the run on sentences but As I think I post.
The rt1000p's have speaker level in for the sub as well as line level,or simply you can use the jumpers or make your own.I can see why your confused about the bi wire thing as the bottom part of the speaker is self powered.The top half is still passive.
Hers the true meaning of bi wiring.
Bi wiring is running 2 different wires from one amp to 2 sets of binding posts on a given speaker.Passive speaker's that can be bi wired seperate the tweeter and the mid range in a 2 way ,in a true 3 way,the top binding posts power the tweeter and the midbass driver,and the bottom posts power the bass drivers.Running full range to both posts allow the internal crossover to filterout all unwanted frequences.In theory, you don't loose any pulled frequences that get filtered out by the crossover traveling to the wrong binding post.This happens when the jumpers are in place.By removing them you can seperate 2 full range signals to each.
The powered subs in the rt1000p's in my opnion sound better in speaker level then line level.I can't explain why they do as I didn't design the speaker.I only know what I hear.
Remember this.....the mains are set to large, there is an external sub for LFE, no LFE speaker or line level is being sent to the towers.i tried the small thing with the LFE ran and looped through, I didn't care for that setup .Jumpers were removed so you don't get confused.

[vicentre]

I have a question for you mantis. when you are calibrating your subwoofer levels, do you match the subwoofer level of your external sub with the mains alone or with the subs in the towers as a whole? or with each sub separately?

[TroyD]

Yeah, I think I got a handle on what bi-wiring is. So, essentiall, what you are saying is that they aren't REALLY biwired nor can they be. Cool.

Troy

[mantis]

When I calibrate the sub's in the tower's,I use music in 2 channel to level left and right.I run the mains full range.
The sub by itself the psw450 which I use for LFE and bass management for the center and all the rears.
So basically the towers are full range for music with no external sub and for movies they stay in full range and the rest of the system is in small.

[mlware]

in reply to whatever was above, Yes, I biwire my ancient rt1000i's, with separate wires connecting to the upper frequency terminals, and to the low freq. terminals with the jumpers removed. The sound is improved over the sound of a single wire setup, especially noticable on good orchestral recordings featuring a lot of high brass, there is a feeling of space and air and specific things being sounded through instruments which I did not nec. get so cleanly using the single wiring approach. It is quite possible I am deluding myself but I did not care for the sound of the single wiring approach once I had gotten used to the biwired method. SO I HAVE AT LEAST FOOLED MYSELF INTO BELIEVING I HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE THROUGH THE USE OF BIWIRING MY SPEAKERS. Bass is taken up by separate powered subs in addition to the modest built-in rt1000i subs, which I have set at a lower setting to avoid killing them. I once fried a set of rt1000p sub drivers by playing them at the 11 o clock position only at at about 11 o clock on the overall volume level, so I'm programmed to distrust already.

[scottvamp]

O.K. you guys are killing me.
Any speaker can be bi-wired. It is simply running two sets of wires from the amp to the speaker.
Can the rt1000's be bi-amped? YES
There are two sets of binding post - one for the tweeter and one for the mid-driver. Most of the rt line is this way. The sub. inside is totally seperate. One amp drives the tweeter and one amp drives the mid. What is so f--cking confusing about that?:confused: I think I need another BEER!;)

[TroyD]

You can run two sets of wires, yes, but if you read Ken's post above.....clearly, a powered tower can't be, in the true sense of the word bi-wired. Call Polk, they'll tell you the same thing.

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

Scott Scott Scott....

You disappoint me man. Go read the 1000 manual on polkaudio.com..... Top post for the mid AND tweet, bottom is speaker level input for the powered sub....Same for the 2000.

Cheers,
Russ

[nascarmann]

There are two sets of binding post - one for the tweeter and one for the mid-driver

I dunno? I don't think so? How does the signal get to the sub?

KING BI-WIRE

[mantis]

Can I jump in here one more time???
The fact or not if the speaker is truly biwired as Ken put it is a valid point.I agree with it to an extent.If you gain sound quality as I did and Another guy did( I forget his name,I'm so bad with names..sorry)then let it rest.True bi wire as you guys call it or not.The fact is by seperating the lows from the midbass and high's make an audio difference.I have heard it from wire to wire.I have changed out my wires more then most sane people do.
Can someone post exaclty what bi wiring means to you or as a fact so everyone can understand where everyones comming from???
I will start with my simple thinking on bi wiring.If any speaker has 2 sets of binding posts on the back of them,If you run seperate 2 conductor speaker level wire to both posts from the same output of a given amp,Isn't that bi wiring in it's simplest form?Correct me if I'm wrong.Please so i and everyone else can get to the bottom of the bi wiring thing.I'm all ears,eyes,whatever.
I just want to know where your thinking is.:)

[mantis]

mlware was his name sorry dude for not remembering.

[RuSsMaN]

Mantis, what the eff did we discuss last night, you damn well know that aint bi-wiring........

Cheers,
Russ

I don't care if it made a sonic difference or not, I hope it did, but it is NOT bi-wiring!!!!! The midbass and tweet are connected to the same post...what else is there to discuss???

C'mon Mantis, tell the good people here what you told me last night, we seemed to be on the same page.....

Cheers,
Russ

[mantis]

Russmann,
I just wanted your full story on Bi wiring, not looking to justifiy why I do 2 my speakers.I think alot of other people in here could benifit from us all posting are take on Bi wiring.
The midbass and tweeter connected to the same post isn't answering the bi wiring question, only to powered towers.What about all other kinds of speakers?
Why would Bi wiring benifit a speaker or not?
If a speaker can truly be bi wired,what benifits should one hear?And why would it make a difference?
Thats All I want to know.You guys talk about what can't be bi wired , you made your point 10x over, but Why don't we turn this post around and talk about how to do it right and why.
Are you with me on this???

[RuSsMaN]

Uhhh, let me sober up for sec....

Seriously, it can make a HUGE difference, in this subjective hobby we have. Seperating the mid and high freq's can provide an astonishing difference in some speakers, and minimal if any in others. Right out of the box, for the most part, I believe if the manufacturer gives you the option, thats one big clue to use it.

One thing I have been pondering, is how bi-wiring, on certain speaks mind you, may actually lower the impedance....Therefore obviously giving you a sense of better sound by the amp pushing more raw power (assuming your amp is up to the load)...

Bi-wire some 800's, take them from 8 ohm to 5.3 ohm or some such... draw more dynamic power? Just my ass cheeks flapping here mind you...

Cheers,
3 Sheets Russ

[mantis]

the difference in Ohm load I have never thought about it,I can find out,but not sure why the load would change.
As I have seen it, amps with lighter loads could run cleaner and more dynamic.Most amps have a sweat spot, in Ohms.Some like more and some like less.
Thats a good question i will have to think about more.

[scottvamp]

Scott Scott Scott....

You disappoint me man. Go read the 1000 manual on polkaudio.com..... Top post for the mid AND tweet, bottom is speaker level input for the powered sub....Same for the 2000.
Good call Russ, I did not check the manual. But it sounded good, right. Hey, I have been drinking Corona's since I got home today. But, I do remember that my CS400i is set up to be bi-amped that way. I will try not to dissapoint u anymore but u have to grade me on a drinking curve. Hee! Haa! :p

[RuSsMaN]

Man, look at the load of wind I posted about ohms above.... Made pefect sense last night, and not a lick of sense today...

Jeez I need to TURN of the pc when consuming multiple glasses of cold suds.....

Cheers,
Russ

[nascarmann]

Jeez I need to TURN of the pc when consuming multiple glasses of cold suds.....

Yah, but not close to the stupidity I show the other night after Mr Seagrams got ahold of me?:D

[RuSsMaN]

Yeah, I didn't make any 'moves' on other forums members at least...

Man, you wanted to kiss Mantis, that is effed-up....

Cheers,
Hungover Russ

[nascarmann]

OK! Let forget all that!

KING SMOOCHER

[TroyD]

Once and for all,

This is MY take on how biwiring works.

In a biwiriable speaker there are separate power inputs (binding posts) that correspond with the frequency ranges associated with the crossover point(s). In a 2-way speaker the freqs are crossed over at a fixed point and there are binding posts to the high freqs and low freqs. You HAVE to power both of them either with birwire cables or one cable and a jumper between posts. Remove the jumper and the nonpowered side gets no power. No power no sound. How simple is that? If you accept that, then Ken's test is valid and we can agree that the RT1000i can't be biwired.

The benefits? Theoretically, Once the highs and lows have been separated in this fashion, the strong current pulses and surges that a woofer demands will not interact with the highs. A true separation of labor if you will. This is simply not possible with a powered tower.

Hopefully, I don't need to add that bi-amping is the same principle except instead of using 2 wires from one amp, you are just using 2 amps. (which introduces other issues)

That's my take, I'm OUT on this subject.

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

Ug, man, I'm gonna puke from this post, I swear. Pickled eggs and Slim Jim's a spewin....any minute now....

-R

[TroyD]

this is pretty tedious, I admit.......mantis did ask a question though, and I don't like to leave a question unanswered.....


Ima leave some warm creamed corn somewhere....

BDT

[mantis]

OK,
the only thing I don't understand is why a powered tower can't be bi wired.If you remove the jumpers,run speaker level to the top post, only the mid bass and tweeter work, the sub doesn't.The same happens if you remove the jumpers and run only speaker level to the sub, the sub goes but the top is now off.
Thats the only thing I can't understand why everyone say you can't bi wire them.
I can see you guys got an understanding on this mad topic.
The 2 things I see is the fact its powered and the mid bass and tweeter aren't seperate.Did you know that there is a crossover in the top, not bi wirable as only one set of posts for the top,I can see that, but thats not the only part of the speaker.From 90 hz and down the sub has to reproduce.So As I see it the only bi wirable seperation of the speaker is removing the 90hz and down from the mid bass driver.There is where I see the bi wire ability in that type of speaker.
I think i'm gonna join the drinking club.

[nascarmann]

I think i'm gonna join the drinking club.

:lol: Now your making sence!:lol:

KING DRUNK

[TroyD]

Right Dan, there IS a crossover on top but the bottom set of binding posts don't have anything to do with that crossover, it's as you say, speaker level to the powered sub.

Look at it like this, if you ran speaker level to a powered sub with an RT35i, used the adjustable crossover and then ran a separate speaker wires from the sub to the 35i and a set of wires from the amp to the 35i's, is that bi-wired? No it's not. That is in essence what you guys are doing. Hey, if it works for ya, cool but it isn't biwired.

I could be talking out my arse here but that's the way I understand it.

Troy

[mantis]

I agree with the rt35i thing but the rt1000p's are built in.
I can rest ashore.It's fine.
Lets end it with not quite bi wired but seperate speaker level to the sub section.I can live with that.

[TroyD]

OK, I'm just saying the principle is EXACTLY the same. Instead of two separate cabinets it's just one cabinet but the wiring principle is the same.

BDT

[mantis]

Its time to join the drinking club...cheers!!

[vicentre]

After reading all the back and forth, i finally said freak it! i chucked the clips and ran wire to the top post from my amp and separate wires to the bottom posts of my RT1000is and i'll be damned if it didn't sound better. So the morale of this story is wether you want to call it bi-wire, bi-amped, under-wire, ghetto, or trailer park, it doesn't matter really. if i sounds better to you, go for it. At your own risk, of course.:p

[rskarvan]

Ok... I'm starting to become convinced that bi-wiring is a good idea - I have RT800i's. Would someone plz. explain WHY bi-wiring is a good idea? I don't understand the physics behind the bi-wire phenomina. Wouldn't replacing the jumper plate with some good quality wire be just about the same as bi-wiring?

Maybe I don't understand it...
Lets say you have a Denon 3801 receiver.
You will run TWO sets of wires back to each out output?
The 3801 has support for rear surrounds and two sets of side surrounds. Thats 10 speakers. Now, you are going to run double the wires into this thing for some magical improvement in sound? I just don't get it.

Now, bi-amping, I can understand. Replacing a cheesy conductor plate (thats gold plated)... may make some sense too. Even going to a marginally bigger gauge (lower number) wire will reduce the resistance and have an effect. Maybe this is the bi-wire phenomina afterall. By doubling the number of wires, you are, in effect, doubling the cross sectional area of the wire and halving the wires resistance. Resistance = resistivity * length / cross-sectional area. Going to a bigger gauge speaker wire would have the same effect (or, even a larger effect since area = pi * radius^2nd).

Would somebody from the ghetto or trailer park please explain?

[mantis]

Vicentre,
Glad you tried it.And I see you got an Improved sound,thats exactly what happened the first time I Bi Wired my speaker's.I know everone has there opnion on how and can be bi wired,I don't care what people want to call it.It makes an audio difference.
The entire reason of all my posts where to inspire someone to go try a wire test and post back results.
I like to hear other people and what they came up with.