SVS vs. M&K

[min888]

I'm looking to add a sub to my system and was wondering which brand is better, of course comparing same price point at about 700 ~ 1K. Is it better if I get non-amp ones from SVS since SVS uses digital switching amp and M&K uses good old class AB amp. Any opinion would be more than welcome.

[organ]

I'm sure most responses here will be for the SVS.

Just wondering why you're only looking at these two brands. Check out the Servo, Seismic and PW series from Paradigm.

[min888]

I'm looking at these two brands becasue SVS seems to be the favorite here and M&K has been around forever and most of the movie studio use their sub for mastering THX movies.

[Early B.]

Check out Hsu subs.

[Shizelbs]

Dollar for dollar, SVS wins.

[HiPerf360]

I Have a M&K and it sounds damn good for its size.

No match for the SRT subs but sounds good.

[VR3]

Hmm..

1,000 dollar M&K vs. 1,000 dollar SVS

SVS on bottom, M&K on top...

[faster100]

Oh yes later this year i will have a svs plus or plus/2 in cherry... SVS, we are a cult ya know.. so join aboard :D

[HiPerf360]

How did I know Sid would chime in on this....

I have not heard a SVS so I can only comment on the M&K.

[min888]

Is there any way I can audition the SVS? They don't have dealers so there is no way I can listen to them. If any of you live in San Jose CA area and like to show of their system I would be more then happy to be a critic :D I think M&K is great because I have heard them before, but can they keep up with the SRS?

[VR3]

M&K is an old reputable company.

But so is Bose. They arnt to far apart. (lots of mark up and low quality stuff)
The 1,000 dollar M&K uses a 83 (SHIPPED) dollar woofer and a cheaply built amp.

The 1,000 dollar SVS uses a 580 dollar woofer and a monsterous amp.
The 600 dollar SVS uses a 120 dollar woofer and still, a monsterous amp.

Its all about performance per dollar. If you want the smaller subwoofer, M&K is for you. If you want balls to the walls - SVS is the ticket.

Wont beat them for the money, but they are large and that may be a bad thing for you.

HSU, Adire, AV123 - Other brands to check out as well.

[Ron Temple]

min888, you have a PM

[HiPerf360]

Sid,

Have you seen M&K stuff?

Low quality????

And to compare it to Bose????

My M&K speakers have an equal or better build quality as my Polk SRT system, and honestly for half the MSRP they have about 80% of the sound quality.

[min888]

Hi Sid, that's the most expensive line from SVS in that picture of yours, is the one from M&K is from their top of the line too? I don't think it's fair to compare to Bose, which is a lot of BS for a piece of junk, but u got to hand it to their marketing people, they did one heck of a job building up their reputation out of nothing. I mean Bose stuff is not worth the papers that they print the advertising on yet they sell like cup cakes.

[VR3]

Have I seen M&K stuff?

Yes I have. I use to own the subwoofer in the picture above.

That subwoofer retailed for 1,000 dollars. It dosnt matter if its the bottom of the line or the top of the line, it retails for 1,000 dollars. Exactly what the SVS subwoofer retails for that that driver came out that cost 580 dollars. Price vs. price, no?

The M&K used extremely poor parts (amps and woofers), the enclosure was very well built though with solid wood for the majority of the enclosure. But solid wood isnt exactly an acoustical masterpiece either.

M&K is what it is, they cost ALOT and they use cheap parts. You may like the sound, I'm not saying they sound horrible, Im just saying you can get better "Quality" stuff for alot less. If you like the sound, get it - but whos to say you cant get the same/better sound for less and with better quality parts that will last longer.

Im comparing to Bose on more of a general basis also, they have the same idea. Lots of mark up, cheap parts so they can get a ton of profits, and ALOT of marketing.

[VR3]

Since yall dont like comparing TOTL to the Mid line M&K, Ill throw out SVS's BOTL driver (which cost 120 bucks).

Im not saying M&K speakers are bad, but I will try my hardest to make sure no one buys a M&K subwoofer - you can buy anything else, but those are just...not good... lol - I have nightmares because of me owning that sub...

Get an Axiom, get a Polk, get an Infinity, get SVS, HSU, Adire, Ascendant, Wilson, JM Lab, B&W, Definitive Tech, you get the idea.

But there are SO many subwoofers out there, and a handfull of GREAT/PRICE for Performance subwoofers - that it is insane, unless that M&K just absolutely tickles your pickle that much to get it. They arnt even that small, so I know size isnt the problem....

Im just trying to make sure your getting YOUR moneys worth for your subwoofer.

While Im at it, Ill throw out the very bottom of the barrel driver offered in a SVS, the ISD 10 driver.

http://svsound.com/pix/f_pb10_sub2.jpg

[min888]

Hey Sid, first of all thanks for all of the pics and your charming dislikes of M&K :D Really, are you a SVS dealer :D, you seems know lots about SVS and try your darndest to convince people. Don't think I like the ones with build in amps though, since they use digital switching amp and as an engineer I don't think it's a good idea. Same as McIntosh gear, don't think it's a good idea to put a transformer into the signal path unless they can claim it helps the harmonics but it ain't, but that's a whole different story. I don't think Polk, Infinity, B&W etc. makes good sub because it's not their specialty, they make great speakers but only so so subs. I will have to find dealers for HSU and Velodyne and give them a try. OH and SVS. :p

[VR3]

Velo and HSU is great. I believe HSU, Adire, and SVS have the hold on the value though...

As for Polk, Infinity, B&W - mediocre subs at best, but then again, so is M&K (They just cost alot more). Infinity, Polk, and B&W atleast cost their performance.

There are not alot of OEM subs that hit "LOW" (below 25hz) because you need a large enclosure or a big amp to get there, both of which cost alot, the big enclosure is the cheapest way out, but alot of joe blows dont want that kind of subwoofer.

Subwoofers play a spectrum we have a hard time hearing, that is partly why they exist - if you can hear the effects of what you just said over a passive subwoofer, you may want to take that amp challenge, 10,000 bucks if you can tell Amp A from Amp B.

Im not a dealer, I work for a dealer...lol - but I/we dont sell SVS. I do however sell Behringer, but even though Im fairly enthusiastic about their product - its all real. I gain nothing by telling you unless you want to drive to my area and buy it from me (which would be cool as hell!) ;)

[marker]

Have I seen M&K stuff?

Yes I have. I use to own the subwoofer in the picture above.

That subwoofer retailed for 1,000 dollars. It dosnt matter if its the bottom of the line or the top of the line, it retails for 1,000 dollars.


Yeah, but how long ago was that?
Performance for the $$$ on subs has come a lonnnnngggggggg way in just the past 3 years or so, so it's not really fair to compare a $1000 sub of 10 years ago or so to one of today's, even at half the price.

[VR3]

Actually...

I had a sub from 15 years ago, I blew the front driver and called M&K. They sent me a driver from their "new" series which cost 83 dollars. (This is their 1,000 dollar NEW model from today)...

And, that driver was identical, they just said it was THX certified and handled 25 more watts.

Do you know how much difference there is between my old MX 90 and the MX 125 of today?

25 watts.

Yep, thats about it, and oh yeah, it says "THX Certified" on it.

Im just looking at M&K's site now. Their line hasnt changed much, they took the 1,000 dollar sub and turned it into a dual 8" subwoofer with a 150 watts.

M&K is in the HT market, not the music reproduction market. People may use it for that, but I find that unlikely as their subs are pretty boomy (to me) - but their market is HT. HT requires reproduction below 25hz, dual 8's and 150 watts isnt going to get there.

Their other subs in that range are very small with small amps, again - its just not going to cut it for HT.

Why not listen to SVS? Find someone local to you with one, order one - they have a return policy. Hear it for yourself.

SVS 1,000 dollars are not M&K 1,000 dollars. M&K has the middle man, the dealer. SVS dosnt have a dealer. SVS is the dealer, they dont have to sell their product to a dealer and the dealer that dosnt exist dosnt have to make that 60% profit. Its a whole different ballgame for ALOT less money.

HSU, Adire, SVS - big subs, big amps, big drivers, low price.

Unless you want some lil cube subwoofer, thats about where its at.

If you want the cube, you're going to be paying alot to get the performance, Sunfire is about the only brand that comes to mind in that one. But SVS is releasing one real soon.

[min888]

I wouldn't mind buying from you but I would have to hop on Greyhound to get there and don't think they would allow me to carry that great big box onto to their bus :rolleyes: I don't think Sunfire cube is that good either, just think how can you control a sub that moves 3~5 inches in either direction to get clean sound. OOps SVS claims the same. In your pic the surround looks like foam, are they going to be like older Infinity where you have to re-foam them after 10~12 years?

[VR3]

No. "New Foam" will last just as long as rubber surrounds.

Woofers are designed to move 3-5" linear. Thats the mark of a GOOD woofer. Its the woofers that move 3MM like M&K that you need to be concerned with.

Any "good" woofer over 100 bucks will move 2"+ linear. This isnt the 80's anymore. This comes along with technological advancements. ;)

[speakergeek]

Hmm..

1,000 dollar M&K vs. 1,000 dollar SVS

SVS on bottom, M&K on top...


Pretty darned impressive (SVS). I want one.

[dorokusai]

M&K was pretty popular when HT first boomed, but their days have long passed.

[howie777]

OK I need to chime in here. I have a complete M&K system, 850s x 5 and a 150 THX sub. This setup kicks some serious ass. You can say all you want about M&K, but they are no means anything like Bose (which I have in my car, until the SR6500's arrive tomorrow! :D ). They have very good build quality and their subs are very nice. Yes you will pay more as there is a dealer involved. Thier pro line is used to mix a great many records so saying they make HT and not musical speakers isn't accurate at all in my opinion. My systems sounds great on movies and music.

Second of all, my amp in my sub has a rated 150 watts. Sounds like not much, but when you listed to it, you don't care about 150 watts because it sounds really good. If you like M&K, they really do make a very good product don't hesitate to buy one if you think that is what you want. Also, M&K may rate an amp at 150watts, but someone else could rate it at 400 - 600 amps Its all in the way you test.

Now, I would love to hear an SVS sub as I have not. I'm not doubting that an SVS for the price is a better buy, it may even be a better sub. And I hope to someday have on myself to find out. But M&K makes some really nice subs, (my driver does look like the one sid has in the pictures, nothing impressive like the SVS)

All I'm saying is don't listen to sid about M&K, listen to the M&K itself. But I wouldn't hesitate to buy the SVS either (listen to sid about SVS though), compare and either keep the SVS or send it back for the M&K. Both I think will make you happy!

I don't mean to offend Sid at all, he has been around a long time on this forum and I value his opinion. But in this case, I must give my point of view which happens to be different then his.

One last note, you can get M&K direct if you don't mind B stock (check thier web site). They had my MX-150 with some cabinet blemishes (maybe a little maybe nothing noticable), with thier new woofers (superfast deep base, yeah horrible name, subs and amp (both brand new parts) for $699! I wish I ordered one or two! MSRP is like $1399, $1100 is what I paid for mine from a dealer.

H

[VR3]

Its all opinions no how...

Ive just had a horrible experience with M&K subs. I would like for you to hear a SVS, one day. If you're ever in the area - more than welcome!

[jdhdiggs]

Also, M&K may rate an amp at 150watts, but someone else could rate it at 400 - 600 amps Its all in the way you test.
H

Not for amps. Receivers can play those types of games, but not amps.

For HT, the MK will be trounced for low, accurate bass from an equivelently priced UFW, SVS, HSU, and Adire subs.

I won't speak about their speaker line, but their subs are grossly overpriced.

[min888]

I looked at their re-furbished site and saw some pretty good deal before but was not too sure about their product so I did not pull the trigger. I also missed a great deal on a Velodyne before, a HGS18 for around 1100, because I was thinking about trying M&K. I don't mind big boxes, if I do I wouldn't have bought the SDA-SRS, which looks like a big coffin :eek: All I want is shake the house bass. I think I got that with the SRS already but as they say you will never have enough :D , the more the better.

[gyusher]

M&K does make some decent subs and you can get a good price if you shop but I for one do not want a refurb or "B" stock M&K just so I can get a price closer to the SVS. . .I'm going to buy the 1st line SVS cheaper and be much more satisfied. . .

I have owned M&K subs and prior to my first SVS thought they were the best consumer grade big name sub going. Then came my first SVS. . .Now 4 SVS subs later I think you know where my loyalty lies. . .

[marker]

Why not listen to SVS? Find someone local to you with one, order one - they have a return policy. Hear it for yourself.

SVS 1,000 dollars are not M&K 1,000 dollars. M&K has the middle man, the dealer. SVS dosnt have a dealer. SVS is the dealer, they dont have to sell their product to a dealer and the dealer that dosnt exist dosnt have to make that 60% profit. Its a whole different ballgame for ALOT less money.

HSU, Adire, SVS - big subs, big amps, big drivers, low price.

Unless you want some lil cube subwoofer, thats about where its at.

If you want the cube, you're going to be paying alot to get the performance, Sunfire is about the only brand that comes to mind in that one. But SVS is releasing one real soon.

If you were referring to me, I already own a PB12 Ultra/2 and a pair of stacked PB10 ISDs, so you are preaching to the choir here.

SVS subs are awesome for movies, but I have heard better IMO for music. My NHT Evolution subs are better on music than the SVSs are.

I also fully agree about the middleman mark up thing.

I own nothing of M&K, but I do know someone locally with a 5.1 surround set of M&K satellite speakers from the mid 90s (couldn't tell you the model #s to save my life), and they are awesome on movies. He originally had a M&K sub, but has since replaced it with a SVS PB12 Plus/2, and this rig is top notch on movies.

[marker]

You can say all you want about M&K, but they are no means anything like Bose ...

I agree. Anyone who compares M&K to Bose is only showing off their own ignorance.

[PolkThug]

Sid's pic is awesome. SVS FTW!

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16000&d=1145544672

[PolkThug]

You can say all you want about M&K, but they are no means anything like Bose ...

I agree. Anyone who compares M&K to Bose is only showing off their own ignorance.

So, are you guys saying that M&K uses expensive parts and has low markup?

[marker]

So, are you guys saying that M&K uses expensive parts and has low markup?

So are you implying that M&K sounds no better than Bose?

[jakelm]

Not another sub war........

[VR3]

I am. ;)

I never said that. You said that.

I said they use similar ideas. IE: Low Quality Parts + High Mark Up + Lots of marketing + living off a past reputation.

Nothing special, big price.

If your SVS is failing at music, you need to try different placement and settings, mine is almost invisible in my room and my room sucks for bass - very fast, very punchy. The big subs, I imagine would be harder to blend for music though. There are, of course better products for music, but M&K definitely isnt one of them.

[Strong Bad]

Sid:

Nice job on the posts. Good info to back yourself up.

I've had my mind made up on a sub for quite a while. The PC-Ultra will have a spot in my setup probably next year most likely after the purchase of a home.

I won't look at another sub company. SVS is just too damn good!

John

[VR3]

Thanks :)

PS: For the offended that own M&K loudspeakers (not subs) and think M&K is god for their sound, I have not said one word here that was associated with their loudspeakers, just their subwoofers.

I did however make shots at the company as a whole, which are are facts - not opinion, so...I dont know what to tell you. But all Ive said about them in general was about their subs.

[speakergeek]

Thanks :)

PS: For the offended that own M&K loudspeakers (not subs) and think M&K is god for their sound, I have not said one word here that was associated with their loudspeakers, just their subwoofers.

I did however make shots at the company as a whole, which are are facts - not opinion, so...I dont know what to tell you. But all Ive said about them in general was about their subs.

Sometimes the truth is hard to take...Seeing the comparison of the SVS speaker to the MK says it all though.

[VR3]

Yeah, it really is a massive difference.

The M&K weighs about 10 pounds, the SVS weighs around 45. (which is about as much as most subs)

[howie777]

OK, you Sid are really starting to make me want to compare an SVS with my M&K. Of course my M&K would win, but I'd have to keep the SVS for future testing ;)

As for M&K weighting 10lbs! Um, mine is 74 lbs, which is a lot more than the wimpy 44 lbs from SVS! :D

Well when I get my house this fall maybe I'll have to see if I can save enough money to get an SVS. See what all the fuss is really about. I may even try to get some new drivers and amp from M&K to compare current to current. Should be interesting if nothing else. I could always use the looser for computer duty.

Howie

[VR3]

you the the MX 150 (saw a past thread). You have dual 12's - and an enclosure that is solid wood (oak I believe) with MDF front and back panels. The majority of your weight is in the enclosure. With 20 pounds in the woofers and maybe 5-10 in the amp.

SVS had a 44 pound woofer (singular), and a 1/4" cylinder which probally weighs 15-20 pounds, then you have the amp...

Also, you're hitting down to about 30hz with a huge 50hz bump, it makes alot of "noise" and thump, but its not forceful or low, trust me - I was very surprised to hear and feel the difference, even for less money.

Ill be interested in hearing your results.

[HiPerf360]

I was taking this further than just subs.....

[ironmike86]

Smallest SVS PB10 is 60lbs. Dual 12" SVS PB12-ISD-2 is 125 the other is 140lbs fwiw. Depending on the M/k The one I heard don't know the model # was close NOT to the SVS for bass. But it's a much smaller speaker so it all depends if size is an issue. The M/k I heard was $1k I think you can find better in SVS for $$ unless size is an issue.

[Loud & Clear]

Good work, Sid. The juxtaposition of those two woofers should send a clear signal for those considering the two brands for purchase. That's an eye opener.

[polk_audio_lsi]

Is the SVS sub the sub that hittest the lowest as far as hz go? Or is there a sub that actually hits lower than SVS hits, because that's what ya want in a sub. Not about what the most watts are but how low the hz go.

[VR3]

I was taking this further than just subs.....

Do you want to take this outside? ;)

I have heard M&K speakers once, dont remember how they sounded. Never been interested in owning them...

Subs on the other hand...;)

SVS hits the lowest with the most force for the money.

Big enclosure, big amp, high excursion drivers = low extention. and tons of volume.

[ironmike86]

Is the SVS sub the sub that hittest the lowest as far as hz go? Or is there a sub that actually hits lower than SVS hits, because that's what ya want in a sub. Not about what the most watts are but how low the hz go.
SVS goes low for the value there are many speakers that sound as low or better but may cost alot more. Like Velodyne or diy enclosed setup using 15-18" drivers. SVS is just good value

[Holydoc]

Well my SVS PB-12/plus had sonic filter settings from 25Hz down to 12Hz. I have never tried the 12Hz but I am currently using the 16Hz settings. With 16Hz, the sub reaches all the way down to 11Hz at 50db (calibrated at 70db for testing purposes). This strong an output at such a low frequency definitely rocks your world. Here is an example of what the sweep looks like. BTW... consider that this is just a single woofer and not nearly their top of the line.

http://members.cox.net/holydoc/stereo/Full16hz.jpg

[min888]

There are off the wall brands that claims to have better subs that I have never heard like VMPS and Legacy Audio which I think are pretty good but have no chance to eval. I think VMPS are not too expensive but Legacy will cost you.

[Ron Temple]

Well min888 just got a chance to listen to my SVS 20-39+. He tells me that my budget system doesn't give him the same bass response as his SDA-SRSs for music, so I'll have to go over and listen :D (who'd a thunk). I then put in The Haunting DTS, WotW and Nemo at -15. That put a smile on his face. I think he was impressed;)...

Nice to meet you Min.:)

[min888]

Thanks A bunch Ron, for the demo. I think I got my ears open. The SVS is wonderful for the movie it literally shook the couch. I think I want one, just have to tell the Missus that big tube thingy is a scratching post :D . Just shoot me an email when u would like to audition the SRS then I can clear my schedule with the missus. You just did not crank up the SVS when you listen to music I have the evil knob all the way up :D

[VR3]

another one bites yje dust! :)

[Ron Temple]

min, I tried to tell you...SVS plays the bass that's there. If I turned it up any louder for music, I'd break the glass doors of my Entertainment Center

I'll send you an email this week to see if we can get together.

RT

[Dennis Gardner]

min, I tried to tell you...SVS plays the bass that's there.


Min,

Ron has it right, the SRS aren't producing the bass you hear, its your room giving you the bass response for music.

[min888]

Don't know what you mean by "SVS plays the bass that was there on music". Guess will have to wait until Ron listens to my system the way I have it and has his takes on it. I don't listen to my music very loud, my volume knob rarely turn above the 9 o'clock position yet there is plenty of room shaking bass. I just like to hear everything times ten at low listening level.

[VR3]

You would like my setup... lol

I run everything hot!

My subs vol knob is on 12 in a 10.5x10.5 room - but it blends very nicely, my mains are pretty loud.

[min888]

Maybe we are distant cousins :D If u're close by I would love to hear what your system sounds like.

[VR3]

If you live in CA...

Im opposite coast of you. ;)

But I have an odd taste in sound, its very untraditional...

[min888]

Who cares about tradition, as long as u like it, it's tradition:p

[marker]

I am. ;)

I never said that. You said that.

I said they use similar ideas. IE: Low Quality Parts + High Mark Up + Lots of marketing + living off a past reputation.

Nothing special, big price.

If your SVS is failing at music, you need to try different placement and settings, mine is almost invisible in my room and my room sucks for bass - very fast, very punchy. The big subs, I imagine would be harder to blend for music though. There are, of course better products for music, but M&K definitely isnt one of them.

Again, IF you are referring to me here (it would really help a lot if you'd quote, especially if the thread has gone on to an entirely different page), experimentation with different placement of the PB12 Ultra 2 is not feasible in nothing more than a micro sense. Macro placement experimentation is pretty much out of the question, that is unless you convientently happen to have a fork lift in your house. :p

SVS subs are designed and tuned for HT first and foremost, with the primary goal being towards maximum extension and output, although plugging the ports, can help change this somewhat.

The NHT Evolution subs are fourth order bandpass despite the fact that they are also sealed acoustic suspension subs, and they are designed for speed and accuracy first and foremost, and IMO, they just flat out do music better than the SVSs do.

Oh, BTW, HSU and Carver/Sunfire also use TC Sounds drivers like SVS does.

[Ron Temple]

Oh, BTW, HSU and Carver/Sunfire also use TC Sounds drivers like SVS does.Just the Ultras and 10"ISD and not for much longer.

[PolkThug]

For music, I'm very satisfy with the SRS but I need more Oomph for movies. :D


SVS subs are designed and tuned for HT first and foremost, with the primary goal being towards maximum extension and output, although plugging the ports, can help change this somewhat.

.. ;) ..

[marker]

.. ;) ..

And they (SVS) would DEFINITELY give him more "Oomph" for movies. :eek:

[marker]

Just the Ultras and 10"ISD and not for much longer.

Which just so happen to be the models I currently have. ;)

It does beg the question though, how much longer till the others also try to follow suit? :p

[Ron Temple]

Which just so happen to be the models I currently have. ;)

It does beg the question though, how much longer till the others also try to follow suit? :pWord on the Ultra is that they are working on it...improving it so that it's significantly better than the new 12.3 driver is a difficult objective to achieve. The 10" ISD may not be improvable, it's really on a par with the 12" 12.2 plus driver.

As far as others go...if you mean competitors...I don't really think bringing the drivers back in house was timed to coincide with anything Hsu's trying to accomplish. This was a decision reached long ago. They didn't want to go overseas and couldn't find a domestic partner that could deliver what they ultimately needed and so decided to do it themselves.