SVS Subwoofer: Cylendrical v/s Box

[tapeshc]

I need some advice in choosing a sub from SVS.

SVS says shape doesn’t matter they all sound equaly good Box or Cylendrical, while I belive what they say I want to get actual opinion from owners of SVS sub.

If anyone here has heard both ? Do they realy saound same.

If weight wasn’t an issue I wouldn’t have thought twice before buying a a Box Sub. I myself weigh 130lbs :o , so I am not sure if I can pickup something that weighs almost same. But again, moving is a once in a while thing and I don’t want compromise on quality of sound because of that.

So please help me decide, which one you think I should go with

[kingkip]

Sound quality-wise I don't think there is much difference. It really is about asthetics and ergonomics. Some people just think a sub should look like a box.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that none of the cylindrical SVS subs have two drivers. That will make a difference. Obviously moving more air will have a bigger impact.

Figure out how much you want to spend and then, if shape doesn't matter, get the easiest for you to use IMO. You will probably want to move the sub around your room a bit to get the best out of it and a big box may not allow you to do that by yourself.

I have however found that strong friends can be bought easily with beer.:cool:

[PolkThug]

I've heard both, its a win-win.

[dorokusai]

I've owned the entry model of both series and don't recall anything sonically different.

[Zen Dragon]

I have however found that strong friends can be bought easily with beer.:cool:

...and weak friends can be made stronger with beer. :)

[michael_w]

I'd go with a box purely on asthetics. I don't really like the looks of the cylinders nearly as much as the others. My sub weighs about 10 lbs less than I do and the only time I've ever had to have someone help me move it was to carry it upstairs, and trust me I'm not that big of a guy ;)

[janmike]

Right, it comes down to personal preference. Personally, I rather have a box than a long, tall cylindrical thing. Good luck!

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Size, weight...

Also note that a cylinder, in theory should have a much strong enclosure - since like...its a circule... ;)...

But anyways, sonically - should be small, if none...

[danger boy]

here is what i would do if I were you.. get a box.. and cut it out to the size of the cylinder SVS sub you are looking at.. say the 20-39PCi for instance.. get the tape measure out and build a round box that size..

then see where in your room you have room for it. could you live with a subwoofer that tall? They don't exactly blend well with anything in the room.. since they are big black round waterheater sized tubes.

I have owned the 20-39PCi so I know how big it is.. i loved it. Soundwise, you can't beat it.. but it is taller than most people think once they get it out of the box and it's sitting in their living room.

From now on.. i'll probably only buy box subs.. nothing wrong with the cylinder ones.. they just don't blend into the room as well.

[DarqueKnight]

In my home theater system, I recently replaced two passive SVS CS Ultra subwoofers (39" cylinders) with an SVS PB12 Ultra 2 (box). The PB12 U2 uses two TV-12 drivers and each of the CS Ultras uses a single TV-12 driver. For home theater applications, I could not hear a difference between the cylinders and the box. For music applications, I could hear a bit more bass definition with the cylinders. However, the additional detail I was hearing could have been due to the difference in amplifiers between the two subwoofer systems.

The main difference between the box and the cylinders was that the box was way more sensitive to room placement.

[RuSsMaN]

The cylinders are far more musical. I've heard both, in multiple setups (ht/music), Mark's 25-31 pci was able to keep up with his Maggies, that speaks VOLUMES for it's speed, control, and articulation (if my opinion means anything to you).

There are very few subs I would recommend for hardcore music applications, the 25-31 is 'right there'. The boxes, entry level to top of the line, unbeatable home theater subs. There is NOTHING you can buy for the $ that can produce the impact they can (PB12 for example).

Cheers,
Russ

[tapeshc]

Thanks a lot for reponding !

Actualy I have seen 16-46 PCI in some one's house and it looked kind of odd. As you guys said, its performance was very good but looked too huge & tall for living room. Taller than my LSi15s and fatter than any thing around. Did look like Water Heaters.

But now I am even more confused if you say that for music they are better because yes I do want to use a sub for music.

Thanks again for your advice !

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

The cylinder should be more accurate.

The box subs, while a great subwoofer are not well braced. Sure, they use 1" thick MDF stock - but it dosnt change the fact that it is a flat surface ya know?

Those are some very high output drivers that move a ton of air... SVS only braces their dual subs and even then it isnt that great.

You're looking at some "box gain" - where the box will aid the sound in certain frequencies which is never good.

The cylinders do not require any bracing since it is a circle, it is virtually impossible for a cylinder to flex or stretch due to a flat surface because it dosnt exist. The top and bottom of SVS cylinders use 1.5" baltic birch plywood, so I dont think that is going to vibrate to much. They should be virtually inert, therefore far more musical by comparison.

The cylinders look amazing, no one has ever mentioned mine being ugly and sometimes people dont even notice it - its one of the things where if the room is right it will blend right in.

Cylinder = music

[ironmike86]

How many ppl ever complain about the box SVS subs breaking? None I know of so I doubt bracing is an issue. Its all about preferance. I don't like the fabric on the cylinder. If your not getting duels i doubt it will matter. I like boxes cuz they dissapear in the room easier JMO

[Holydoc]

I have to agree with the fact that the boxes fit better in a room. You can use the box subs as a coffee table if you need the space. The water heaters are just large and in-charge of the space you place them in. Cylinders are nice with a dedicated HT room where they can hide behind a screen but in a normal living area, they just stand out too much.

In theory Sid is right that the cylinder should have less resonance and sound better for musical notes. In practice, it would take a very astute ear to tell the difference.

[doug lang]

People see mine and ask if i have a cat. But as soon as they hear the sound with my entire system, they are amazed.

[ironmike86]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/ironmike86/DSC03694.jpg
I usually keep my beer on top

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Ok, since you want to be smart about this...

1) Bracing Has NOTHING to do with structural stability as far as staying together goes.

2) Bracing is very important, for any speaker - especially for music.

3) The reason why bracing is important, a panel flexes, and this panel will exagerate certain frequencies because in theory it is making a sound, it is vibrating - vibrations = sound.

Ok, so if you have a very well braced panel, that means there are small spans of space on a panel for it to vibrate. Its just like a guitar string, hold down a fret near the body, it will be a higher note because its shorter. With a panel, smaller space, less vibrations - less sound = less exageration that you can hear.

Now, in a smaller subwoofer, I would agree that bracing wouldnt make or break it. But SVS's, last I checked - are not small. Fact is, a guy ran a test on one with weights put on it and then without and there was a noticeable difference in quality before and after. They do resonate and it does exagerate the sound in some frequencies.

But only a few folks dedicated to music will notice. For HT it dosnt matter, that lil more oomph in a certain frequency range may be your thing, who knows.

I just know a long panel that isnt braced is going to flex, dosnt matter how thick it is.

[SKsolutions]

So, if I'm reading this right, it has nothing to do with standing waves, frequency length, enclosure absortion, cone damping, or resonant frequencies. Cool, I'll buy a Radio Shack sub and strap some guitar frets to it. Maybe some strings too.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Has alot to do with it.

Im just giving a general example why its important.

But if you want to take it to the next step, be my guest.

PS: The Ratshack sub + Guitar comments was cute.

PSS: Explaining things with "correct terms" that you know, no one understands - dosnt help a thing. If you break it down to atleast some general terms that people will understand. This guy said bracing wasnt important because his sub wasnt falling apart. Last thing he needs is someone like you telling him "correct term" explanation.

All they need to know, you make the panel smaller by bracing it in multiple spots. It dosnt vibrate as much and it cuts down on the noise, thus getting rid of overtones and exagerations. But if you want to be the know-it-all dexter, be my guest.

[ironmike86]

3) The reason why bracing is important, a panel flexes, and this panel will exagerate certain frequencies because in theory it is making a sound, it is vibrating - vibrations = sound.

So if this is the only reason there's a brace is to limit flexing I doubt I'd beable to hear any vibrations. So I take it HSU has a brace being many ppl say thats the best musical sub vs the SVS? I dunno I haven't heard a HSU just curious. My ears aren't golden I can't hear what every one else hears I just like it loud clear without clipping. First time I've heard thats the reason for a brace not that many other ppl didn't already know this I just didn't. But still I can put a BEER on top of mine

[a_mattison]

Sid, Did you kick that guy's dog or something?...Steal his girlfriend?

Your explaination makes perfect sense.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Hes just a jackass.

Atleast...thats how Ive perceived him.

Your mileage may vary.

[ironmike86]

Why just because I asked if HSU has a brace? If they don't then why is it still considered the best musical sub in the under $1k price range? I dunno like I said I never heard a HSU. Just I never hear anyone metion sub lacking detail or giving distortion because there is no brace like I said i dunno if its true or not. I just never blindly belive or quote anyting someone else says. I was asking just to get a clear understanding but now I'm a jackass. Sure glad I'm not insecure.

[a_mattison]

Why just because I asked if HSU has a brace? If they don't then why is it still considered the best musical sub in the under $1k price range? I dunno like I said I never heard a HSU. Just I never hear anyone metion sub lacking detail or giving distortion because there is no brace like I said i dunno if its true or not. I just never blindly belive or quote anyting someone else says. I was asking just to get a clear understanding but now I'm a jackass. Sure glad I'm not insecure.


not you

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Yeah, not you.

[Dr. Spec]

Sid = SVS only braces their dual subs and even then it isnt that great.

Not true - nearly all SV box subs are braced; ping TV for details.

Sid = Fact is, a guy ran a test on one with weights put on it and then without and there was a noticeable difference in quality before and after. They do resonate and it does exagerate the sound in some frequencies.

True at the time, no longer applicable. COF/IG's PB10-ISD was an early production model; an extensive X-brace was added shortly after his review in response to his comments.

Also, if the individual conducting the listening tests is also the one who is applying the weights, he is inherently biased by this knowledge and the listening results and the conclusions cannot be considered valid.

This is not a knock on COF/IG; it merely recognizes an inherent flaw in the experiment. The only valid way to conduct that experiment is with blind testing and a statistically valid number of runs.

Sid = The reason why bracing is important, a panel flexes, and this panel will exagerate certain frequencies because in theory it is making a sound, it is vibrating - vibrations = sound.

This is correct and I support panel bracing as a general good manufacturing practice. With that said, the resonant frequency of a panel (or a braced subsection of a panel) must be able to be excited by the frequencies in the pass band of the subwoofer for panel resonance to be a real concern.

In addition, panel resonance (such as that measured by COF/IG) which occurs in the -35 to -40 dB region (relative to the signal strength) is likely to be overwhelmed by source material.

Note in his ad hoc experiment with the before/after weights, the two curves were very close (going from memory here) down to about -25 dB. Below this point (and some would argue even well above it) the resonances are overshadowed by source material.

In fact at -25 dB, the ringing of the Helmholtz resonator at Fb (system resonance) from a reflex alignment is much louder and longer in duration that any noise from panel flexing.

DarqueKnight = For music applications, I could hear a bit more bass definition with the cylinders. However, the additional detail I was hearing could have been due to the difference in amplifiers between the two subwoofer systems.

There are other variables beside the amp. The cylinders have a native tune of 20 Hz, and the Ultra/2 is tuned to 25 Hz. Tuning the Ultra/2 to 20 Hz by plugging a port overdamps the alignment (i.e., the enclosure is smaller than optimal to support this Fb without EQ). Even with EQ curve available from the tune switch, the FR of the Ultra/2 in the 20 Hz tune is not the same as the FR of the 20-39CSU in the 20 Hz tune. The differences you heard between the two can be probably attributed to their differences in the in-room FR more than the fact that one is a box and the others are cylinders.

Holydoc = In theory Sid is right that the cylinder should have less resonance and sound better for musical notes. In practice, it would take a very astute ear to tell the difference.

I think this puts things well into perspective. The cylinder is a very elegant solution and it naturally will not flex and I recognize its inherent advantages as much as the next person.

But (for example) the 20-39PC+ and the PB12-Plus (similar enclosure volume, same native tune, same porting arrangement, same amp, same driver) sound very, very similar and under most situations one would be hard pressed to tell them apart under any normal listening conditions.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Just to give you an idea of what their biggest cylinder looks like in a typical room...

http://www.polkaudio.com/images/showcase/136_43_big.jpg
http://www.polkaudio.com/images/showcase/136_41_big.jpg

Those pics are a couple years old (just realized I need to update my showcase pics), but you get the idea.

I went with a cylinder because, as you can see, floor space is limited at the front soundstage, and the box sub that is the equivalent of that 16-46 wasn't going to fit anywhere in that room.

[Ron Temple]

Hey Ed,

Have you had a chance to listen and compare the new driver's yet?

[Holydoc]

Yeah, not you.

Doh! I just noticed this. So if you were not upset at IronMike, then I have turned into the guy whose dog you kicked?

For the life of me, I could not find anything offensive that I posted.

:(

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

When I saw Doc post, I thought I might be in for a verbal beat down, but I am pleasantly surprised. Cool.

I based my bracing assessments on what Tom and co. have said about their enclosures, that since they were 1" thick stock, they didnt need the bracing.

Ive seen the internals (pictures) of the ISD 2 and all it had was a middle x brace - which to me isnt enough. But I like overkill anyways.

Dosnt change the fact they are top notch either way.

[a_mattison]

Doh! I just noticed this. So if you were not upset at IronMike, then I have turned into the guy whose dog you kicked?

For the life of me, I could not find anything offensive that I posted.

:(


I was talking about SKsolutions trying to whoop on Sid.

[Dr. Spec]

Hey Ed,

Have you had a chance to listen and compare the new driver's yet?

No, but my former PB2+ is still floating around locally and the new owner will be ordering two 12.3 woofers for it when they go on sale. We'll do the install and see how they sound.

[Holydoc]

No, but my former PB2+ is still floating around locally and the new owner will be ordering two 12.3 woofers for it when they go on sale. We'll do the install and see how they sound.

I have not even looked to see how hard a speaker swap out will be on the PB12/plus. I would like to get the 2-3db increase that the 12.3 version offers. Is this swap out something that anyone can do without messing up an already great thing?

Sorry if this is a stupid question. I am just in fear of messing up my SVS by trying to improve it.

[Dr. Spec]

When I saw Doc post, I thought I might be in for a verbal beat down, but I am pleasantly surprised. Cool.

I based my bracing assessments on what Tom and co. have said about their enclosures, that since they were 1" thick stock, they didnt need the bracing.

Ive seen the internals (pictures) of the ISD 2 and all it had was a middle x brace - which to me isnt enough. But I like overkill anyways.

Dosnt change the fact they are top notch either way.

Sid you are largely past the point of needing (or deserving) verbal beat downs........a few years ago - sure, different story. ;)

It's not so much the panel thickness on an absolute basis, as the panel thickness relative to the unbraced surface area. This dictates flex potential under pressure and also the panel's resonance frequency.

If you like overkill, you'll like this pic........Triad Gold InRoom PowerSub enclosure. The opening in the rear is the amp cut-out.

[Dr. Spec]

Just to give you an idea of what their biggest cylinder looks like in a typical room...

I went with a cylinder because, as you can see, floor space is limited at the front soundstage, and the box sub that is the equivalent of that 16-46 wasn't going to fit anywhere in that room.

I'm thinking a little symmetry is never a bad thing..........how about another on the left? :)

[Dr. Spec]

I have not even looked to see how hard a speaker swap out will be on the PB12/plus. I would like to get the 2-3db increase that the 12.3 version offers. Is this swap out something that anyone can do without messing up an already great thing?

Sorry if this is a stupid question. I am just in fear of messing up my SVS by trying to improve it.

Takes about 20 minutes - all you need is a screwdriver and a helper to hold/disconnect the woofers. Sometimes you need to tilt the cab a bit to get one started and then you can get your fingers under the basket edge.

[SKsolutions]

Sid, Did you kick that guy's dog or something?...Steal his girlfriend?

Your explaination makes perfect sense.

No, it's just the incessant and unintelligible yammering I can't take. To try to explain something you must first understand it, not just read the Cliffnotes. I don't care if the "jargon" is icorrect, but don't try to explain something in an oversimplified and quick rant like it's the definitive word. Life must be so stresfull hawking teenagers their DJ equipment.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Blah Blah Blah

Dude, get over yourself.

[a_mattison]

So, if I'm reading this right, it has nothing to do with standing waves, frequency length, enclosure absortion, cone damping, or resonant frequencies. Cool, I'll buy a Radio Shack sub and strap some guitar frets to it. Maybe some strings too.

...Talk about yammering and jargon.... In the context of the point being made there was no need for your additional jargon. Simple fact is..they were talking about sub box shapes and the need for bracing in a box due to the fact that the box can and will flex due to pressure exerted on the walls. Thus, causing air and sound to move differently in the box and make things sound weird...etc. A cylinder will not flex in this manner...etc, etc etc... I found it interesting since I have never considered the magnitude of the pressures that are fluctuating inside that box.

Lighten up.:eek:

[SKsolutions]

[QUOTE=a_mattison]...

Thus, causing air and sound to move differently in the box and make things sound weird...etc. A cylinder will not flex in this manner...etc, etc etc... I found it interesting since I have never considered the magnitude of the pressures that are fluctuating inside that box.
[QUOTE]

I was speaking of yammering, yes. I did not, however, pontificate on it's propensity to propagate, but I was sure someone would avail themselves to it. I especially appreciate sentences that begin with "Thus,", and the use of the ubiquitous "weird" to quantify complex systems.

Like Xenon

Cheerio-

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Look...

I know your just itching in your britches to get this thing out. Why dont you just tell us how this works the "correct" and "professional" way so youll just shut the heck up.

People like you annoy me, because you can spend 2 hours telling someone about something with all your correct terms - words that, if you havnt figured out - no one understands. Are you bilingual? Well, Im not - when a spanish speaking person comes in the store to buy something and cant speak english - I dont understand a freaking word he says.

Its not much different than you telling a beginner to HT/Audio how an enclosure reacts to the woofer.

So put down the tape measurer, stop trying to compare and contrast yourself over the internet and realize that no one is that interested in the subject to go that deep into it. And if they are, they have the whole wide internet to go through to obtain it. I doubt they will need you to explain it to them.

But I'm sure thats what you would like.

[a_mattison]

SK put some thought into that last one. Excellent use of 'P' words. Must be the mostest smartest guy ever.

Starting sentences with "Thus" and ending in "weird" is my favorite. Actually, ending the sentence with "weird" was my way of just finishing the sentence because I realized I was wasting my time.....OH..here goes more of it...weird....

[mrbigbluelight]

SVS subwoofers.

Now, as the proud owner of an Athena AS-P4000..

......Hey ! Where do you think you're going ? Sit back down !!

....I feel I am emminently qualified to speak on the subject. Or not.

The point I would make is that ANY flat surface will bow when pressure is put on it. Put a 10-foot 6x6 across your back deck, stand on it, and it will bow.
Not much, mind you, unless you've been hitting the potatoe chips too heavily, but it will flex under the additional pressure.

The duct work that comes off your furnace at home is flat. To keep it from flexing excessively when the blower comes on (adding pressure to the inside of the duct work), sheet metal workers put the flat sheet in a brake and cross-crimp it (make a slight x). Works the same as bracing, and reduces sheet metal pop (noise) greatly.

My point/question would be this: although you may not see any obvious visible cross-bracing inside a subwoofer's enclosure, doesn't mean it's not there.

"Huh" ?

Is the wood on the inside of a Stradivarius violin planed flat (smooth) ?
Nope.
It has various thicknesses, strategically placed at one point by a craftsman who had his stuff together. How this craftsmen performed his art/magic still isn't exactly understood, but the result is this:

The extremely minute differences in thickness allows extremely fine differences in flexing on the soundboard that (among other factors) gives a Stradivarius violin its unique qualities.

Perhaps this method of varying wood thickness can be used as a bracing method inside a audophile level subwoofer. Using the sheet metal analogy, the equivalent of a "crimp" could be made by planing/routing a crimp (or "x") across the interior surface.
This would provide additional "bracing" that is not readily visible to the naked eye. Help to break up any sound-induced surface roll if you will.

Well, now that I've succeeded in boring you snotless, I shall retire. :)

I have to get back to researching HSU and SVS subbies. My daughter and son-in-law are having their 2nd anniversary in a month and a half, and I'm putting together a HT for them (so they can get rid of their Ensignia system).
Got everything but the subbie and the center.

P.S. a cylinder also flexes, but....perhaps anther time. :)